This is incredibly frustrating. The westeros.org forums are full of book-readers who have a massive hate-on for Littlefinger; they feel the show is destroying his character. I'm watching episode four and his three scenes in Renly's camp (to me, anyway) show three vastly different characters, which makes me think the show-runners are doing an incredibly good job handling just how involved he is with the machinations of the game. It seems insanely ironic that the community is effectively falling for Littlefinger's act.
When he's talking to Renly, he simply says that, hey, I'll give you KL if you let me keep my head... and my position, if possible. Then, with Margarey, he's a little more involved - verbally sparring with her; sounding her out, seeing how smart she is. With Cat, he's passionate as soon as he walks through the door, then backs off to plant the seed and give back the bones.
Am I reading the scenes incorrectly? Has his character been shown consistently, and I'm just crazy?
Tamin on
0
Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
edited April 2012
No, you're right. I think his character is being played perfectly. He gets a little less screen time than we read about him in the books so his plans are a little disjointed by comparison, but it's obvious that he's being incredibly manipulative to both self-serving and somewhat mysterious (at this point) ends.
Donkey Kong on
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
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MalReynoldsThe Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicinesRegistered Userregular
edited April 2012
Hm. Forum wackiness.
MalReynolds on
"A new take on the epic fantasy genre... Darkly comic, relatable characters... twisted storyline."
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
Wasn't it Loras who went on a killing spree in the tent in the books?
Yes. Maybe what's happening is
Brienne fighting her way free after she and Cat are accused of killing Renly?
Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
said that Arya stole three deaths from the red god.
That second spoiler is actually from the book.
She remembered that she hated him. “You scared me. You’re one of them now, I should have let you burn. What are you doing here? Go away or I’ll yell for Weese.”
“A man pays his debts. A man owes three.”
“Three?”
“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.”
Tamin on
0
ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Wasn't it Loras who went on a killing spree in the tent in the books?
Yes. Maybe what's happening is
Brienne fighting her way free after she and Cat are accused of killing Renly?
Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
said that Arya stole three deaths from the red god.
That second spoiler is actually from the book.
She remembered that she hated him. “You scared me. You’re one of them now, I should have let you burn. What are you doing here? Go away or I’ll yell for Weese.”
“A man pays his debts. A man owes three.”
“Three?”
“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.”
Strange. I had not thought that
The Many-Faced God was the same as Rh'llor. If anything I would have thought the Other was perhaps a facet of the Many-Faced God.
Wasn't it Loras who went on a killing spree in the tent in the books?
Yes. Maybe what's happening is
Brienne fighting her way free after she and Cat are accused of killing Renly?
Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
said that Arya stole three deaths from the red god.
That second spoiler is actually from the book.
She remembered that she hated him. “You scared me. You’re one of them now, I should have let you burn. What are you doing here? Go away or I’ll yell for Weese.”
“A man pays his debts. A man owes three.”
“Three?”
“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.”
Strange. I had not thought that
The Many-Faced God was the same as Rh'llor. If anything I would have thought the Other was perhaps a facet of the Many-Faced God.
Wasn't it Loras who went on a killing spree in the tent in the books?
Yes. Maybe what's happening is
Brienne fighting her way free after she and Cat are accused of killing Renly?
Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
said that Arya stole three deaths from the red god.
That second spoiler is actually from the book.
She remembered that she hated him. “You scared me. You’re one of them now, I should have let you burn. What are you doing here? Go away or I’ll yell for Weese.”
“A man pays his debts. A man owes three.”
“Three?”
“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.”
Strange. I had not thought that
The Many-Faced God was the same as Rh'llor. If anything I would have thought the Other was perhaps a facet of the Many-Faced God.
Actually, right after I posted that, it occurred to me that
Arya saved Jaqen and the rest from burning, specifically.
Wasn't it Loras who went on a killing spree in the tent in the books?
Yes. Maybe what's happening is
Brienne fighting her way free after she and Cat are accused of killing Renly?
Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
said that Arya stole three deaths from the red god.
That second spoiler is actually from the book.
She remembered that she hated him. “You scared me. You’re one of them now, I should have let you burn. What are you doing here? Go away or I’ll yell for Weese.”
“A man pays his debts. A man owes three.”
“Three?”
“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.”
Strange. I had not thought that
The Many-Faced God was the same as Rh'llor. If anything I would have thought the Other was perhaps a facet of the Many-Faced God.
The Many-Faced God is the god of death, and every other religion's god of death is one of the faces. In the red priest's religion, there is only one god. Therefore, the Red God is a god of death, and therefore, the Red God is one face of the Many-Faced God.
I don't have confirmation on this or anything, but it makes a certain degree of sense.
Wasn't it Loras who went on a killing spree in the tent in the books?
Yes. Maybe what's happening is
Brienne fighting her way free after she and Cat are accused of killing Renly?
Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
said that Arya stole three deaths from the red god.
That second spoiler is actually from the book.
She remembered that she hated him. “You scared me. You’re one of them now, I should have let you burn. What are you doing here? Go away or I’ll yell for Weese.”
“A man pays his debts. A man owes three.”
“Three?”
“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.”
Strange. I had not thought that
The Many-Faced God was the same as Rh'llor. If anything I would have thought the Other was perhaps a facet of the Many-Faced God.
The official line from the Faceless is that
The Many-Faced God the power of death behind all gods, including Rh'llor.
though I share your suspicion that this is not entirely true, and that the Many Faced God is the Other.
Wasn't it Loras who went on a killing spree in the tent in the books?
Yes. Maybe what's happening is
Brienne fighting her way free after she and Cat are accused of killing Renly?
Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
said that Arya stole three deaths from the red god.
That second spoiler is actually from the book.
She remembered that she hated him. “You scared me. You’re one of them now, I should have let you burn. What are you doing here? Go away or I’ll yell for Weese.”
“A man pays his debts. A man owes three.”
“Three?”
“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.”
Strange. I had not thought that
The Many-Faced God was the same as Rh'llor. If anything I would have thought the Other was perhaps a facet of the Many-Faced God.
The Many-Faced God is all gods.
It's the Red God in particular this time because they were going to burn to death.
Brienne fighting her way free after she and Cat are accused of killing Renly?
Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
said that Arya stole three deaths from the red god.
About Jaqen:
Well, he would have died in a fire, and therefore maybe he thought it was the Red God that would have got him...
I don't think followers of the Many-Faced God necessarily have to know the ins and outs of all the religions in the world - just that death is always a part of them.
As for Brienne:
Isn't she not supposed to have killed anybody until Shagwell and some other Brave Companions in AFfC? She makes a big deal of it at the time.
Isn't she not supposed to have killed anybody until Shagwell and some other Brave Companions in AFfC? She makes a big deal of it at the time.
I believe you're right, that's a shame.
Maybe they'll just work that reaction into her conversations with Catelyn instead?
Considering how expensive fight scenes are, there must be some pretty good reason for it
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Isn't she not supposed to have killed anybody until Shagwell and some other Brave Companions in AFfC? She makes a big deal of it at the time.
I believe you're right, that's a shame.
Maybe they'll just work that reaction into her conversations with Catelyn instead?
Considering how expensive fight scenes are, there must be some pretty good reason for it
The reason could just be "We don't want to make the audience wait three years to see Brienne prove herself in mortal combat"
Which seems like a not terrible reason, but the payoff, of following her for the three years before that scene takes place, would have been excellent.
[e]
I like the juxtaposition of her crying over Shagwell. Of all the things in Westeros that vaguely resemble human beings: Shagwell. But I suppose she may as well have been crying over mistrusting Crabb and blaming herself for hsi death as much as being overwhelmed by her first kills.
I guess alternately they're just not planning on casting shagwell and co. this season, since there's enough characters already, and so there's less reasons to set up that scene for Brienne later.
And they can still do that scene with a couple of evil random dudes. It's not as fun as shagwell, but probably a lot cheaper and easier.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
It does sort of inform her character though - the books make a point to show that she's not a badass who happens to be a big ugly woman, but is an outcast who plays at swords (very, very well) because she's better at it than anything else. More importantly, she's better than the people who torment her, but she still hasn't been forced to kill anyone because many of the men around her, no matter their disdain for her, still want to protect her honor.
Anyone else feel underwhelmed by the replacement actor (I think this guy?) for Gregor? I only noticed him speaking a few lines to Tywin in the last episode, so it might be too little to make a judgment on.
But I loved the actor from the first season. Even without lines, he could convey an "all of you can go fuck yourselves" attitude and really managed to embody the Mountain I knew from the books.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Yeah, they got a guy who was tall, but he's not the, well, man-mountain that Conan Stevens was. He seems like he'd be more suited for a Count Dooku villain.
Anyone else feel underwhelmed by the replacement actor (I think this guy?) for Gregor? I only noticed him speaking a few lines to Tywin in the last episode, so it might be too little to make a judgment on.
But I loved the actor from the first season. Even without lines, he could convey an "all of you can go fuck yourselves" attitude and really managed to embody the Mountain I knew from the books.
Yeah, like I buy him as evil, but he looks middle-eastern and kind of unassuming, which is scary, but not the Mountain kind of scar. He kind of reminded me of count dooku, when he should remind me of like a giant wrestler. I mean I guess it shows how hard it is to be big and muscley at that height, Conan Stevens was a freak. Also the armour and chainmail made him look lanky, like it didnt give him any shoulders, also the hat, while fine on regular soldiers, looks downright Knights Who Say Ni on the new Mountain.
I think they could make him work, but I have a feeling that by the time more Mountain scenes come, they may just hire Conan again if he's done with Hobbit filming. At least thats what im hoping, especially with later fight scenes, as Conana Stevens is a trained stunt fighter and whatnot
Prohass on
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
The new Mountain looks like a Monty Python character.
It didn't help that he was next to Charles Dance, who's a pretty fair-sized guy himself.
But yeah, hopefully old gregor comes back next season. That'd be swell
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
That's just not fair to the new guy. The old guy bailed by his own choice it seems, so more power to the new guy I say. The Mountain's such a minor character so far some people didn't even notice the switch.
To be fair this new guy IS tall and towers over everyone else, and his armor looked better than the "Ram Man" armor they had the Mountain in last season. We haven't even seen the guy without his armor on so I'm not worried. I never really felt the Mountain would be done right in the show since in the books he's literally over 8 foot tall without his armor. Even the guy last season seemed puny compared to the vision I had in my head.
Been a while since I read CoK, but are we expecting to see much more of the Mountain this season now that Tywin's back? In an ideal world we'll get Conan Stevens back by the time the Mountain has to face off against the Red Viper.
Speaking of; I've been watching the Wire again and could really see Dominc West playing that part (Him or Mance Rayder strangely enough).
I need to ask because I want to know. Regarding the latest episode of the TV show.
What is the thing that was given birth to? That came out of nowhere for me.
Spoiler it if you must, I'm very curious!
The responses you got all sucked. Here, in spoiler form, is what it is. It isn't that big of a deal. I'm describing it in detail, but I'm not going to actually spoil major events it relates to, not even in the spoiler.
Mel's a damned witch. She's had a shitty past, and although on some level she really believes she's doing the Lord's Good Works, she's mostly a misguided black-magic poser version of the red saint that she thinks she is.
Most of her spells are wicked evil shit that depend on her exploiting the power of aristocratic bodily fluids. Every time Stannis deposits a load, she births a Stannis shadow demon that does her and Stannis' will.
It made way more sense in the books. In the books, Davos and Mel do the boat thing much later. At that point, we already have vague knowledge of some sort of shadow demon that did some shit earlier, and assume it had something to do with Mel, but with very little detail on what it was or how it did what it did. So when Mel births one, it's filling in some pretty interesting details for the reader. But the problem here is that in the show, the previous event with the shadow demon hasn't happened yet. So ending the show with her birthing a demon just leaves you like, "eh?"
I assume that they are combining and reversing the shadow-demon events from the books. So likely in the next episode you'll get to see one or both of the things that this demon does.
As for Hodor, with the proper design, it isn't that tough to carry a decent weight on your shoulders. I've known some rather small dads to carry some rather large sons (not teens, but still) in one of those shoulder-chair hiking deals.
I need to ask because I want to know. Regarding the latest episode of the TV show.
What is the thing that was given birth to? That came out of nowhere for me.
Spoiler it if you must, I'm very curious!
The responses you got all sucked. Here, in spoiler form, is what it is. It isn't that big of a deal. I'm describing it in detail, but I'm not going to actually spoil major events it relates to, not even in the spoiler.
Mel's a damned witch. She's had a shitty past, and although on some level she really believes she's doing the Lord's Good Works, she's mostly a misguided black-magic poser version of the red saint that she thinks she is.
Most of her spells are wicked evil shit that depend on her exploiting the power of aristocratic bodily fluids. Every time Stannis deposits a load, she births a Stannis shadow demon that does her and Stannis' will.
It made way more sense in the books. In the books, Davos and Mel do the boat thing much later. At that point, we already have vague knowledge of some sort of shadow demon that did some shit earlier, and assume it had something to do with Mel, but with very little detail on what it was or how it did what it did. So when Mel births one, it's filling in some pretty interesting details for the reader. But the problem here is that in the show, the previous event with the shadow demon hasn't happened yet. So ending the show with her birthing a demon just leaves you like, "eh?"
I assume that they are combining and reversing the shadow-demon events from the books. So likely in the next episode you'll get to see one or both of the things that this demon does.
As for Hodor, with the proper design, it isn't that tough to carry a decent weight on your shoulders. I've known some rather small dads to carry some rather large sons (not teens, but still) in one of those shoulder-chair hiking deals.
Yes. What they are doing is smushing things down pretty hard. In the book
it is implied that but never shown, at least from what I can remember, that Stannis has to inpregnate Mel. Knowing Stannis in the books it wouldnt surprise me if Mel got the "seed" from him via other means. The scene from the last episode is actually from when Davos "smuggles" Mel into Storm's End after Renly's death and was pretty close to word for word. The main part of this scene was supposed to be Davos again delivering Storm's End to Stannis and truely showing his loyalty.
I didnt like the change really as the book version was far more mysterious and would have worked better for the non book people.
Instead of "WTF is that coming out of her hoo hoo!?" it would have been "WTF just killed renly!?" which is much less confusing.
In case anyone is wondering, that last spoiler above is a super-spoiler for the show.
But continuing the discussion: also a big point of the demon birth in the book was supposed to be a moment of "ah-ha, so that's what it was..." for the reader. Except in show, the previous event hasn't happened yet, so it's just a moment of "uh, what are they doing, and what is that supposed to be?"
In both the book and the show (where the scenes are quite identical), it is nevertheless a gritty moment of realization of just how much of a black sorceress Mel really must be.
Davos and Mel's argument is key here.
First, it's Davos saying "we're all a bit good and a bit bad, I'm trying to be as good as I can and all I know is I'm loyal to Stannis" vs. Mel's "nuh-uh, we're either good or evil, and I'm good because I serve the God of Light." This ties into a lot of what people debate about morality in the book itself, as well as differences in views of morality in modern life. From the reader/viewer's point of view, it would seem that Davos is mostly correct about everyone being a bit of both, and just trying in some way to live up to their decisions. Whereas Mel seems to be misguided if she thinks that a) everyone is just good or bad, and b) her religion makes her unquestionably good.
Then the argument moves to Davos' accusation of "serving the light but hiding in shadows" vs. Mel's rationalization that "shadows are the servants of light." Again IMO same deal here. Davos seems to have a good gut feeling about this. If this God of Light is what it is made out to be, how come Mel is always doing shit at night, and in secret, and in hiding, etc. Mel, on the other hand, has a religious rationalization for everything (this is even more evident in the books). She's right, in a way, shadows really are the servants of light and don't exist without it. But this seems to be a technical rationaliztion that doesn't defeat the general correctness of Davos' feelings. And this debate is greatly intensified by watching this supposed Servant of Light strip down and birth a bastard demon of darkness. Not to mention the fact that the whole reason Davos had to sneak her in was to get her past some ancient magic walls that were built to keep out evil spirits.
Also, in the book it is never explicit, but it is implied that Stannis is not entirely in control of his mind, and that Mel has some power over him, particularly at night, and that Stannis is actually not consciously aware of the fact that she has been sleeping with him. It is not like Stannis at all to cheat, and a promise of an embarrassing bastard son, like ones Robert had all over the place, would have been just another reason not to; it would not have been an enticement.
Also the fact that the first time Davos smuggled life into Storm's End but this time he smuggled death. I didnt really pay much attention to Stannis at this point in the books as he really confused me and just seemed to be acting overly righteous but not in the likeable Stark way.
On the Littlefinger front I have no problem with the way he is being presented. I think him and Varys are perfectly done for the limited screen time they are getting.
Jubal77 on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Stannis grows on you as time goes on, but at first glance he comes off as cold and self-righteous.
I don't know why I didn't notice this before the show but to sort of back up Yar's post:
Anyone else get a vibe that Mel and the Sheep people witch that got burned at the funeral Pyre are similar? Remember how Dany's baby is described as when it came out? It strikes me as very similar to that thing I just saw Mel pop out. And while the show differed, in the book, didn't the Drogo getting blood magic done to him thing happen at night as well? Unless I am misremembering, oh well, I'll re-read it soon enough.
I don't know why I didn't notice this before the show but to sort of back up Yar's post:
Anyone else get a vibe that Mel and the Sheep people witch that got burned at the funeral Pyre are similar? Remember how Dany's baby is described as when it came out? It strikes me as very similar to that thing I just saw Mel pop out. And while the show differed, in the book, didn't the Drogo getting blood magic done to him thing happen at night as well? Unless I am misremembering, oh well, I'll re-read it soon enough.
If I remember correctly didnt that witch also train at Asshai?
This is incredibly frustrating. The westeros.org forums are full of book-readers who have a massive hate-on for Littlefinger; they feel the show is destroying his character. I'm watching episode four and his three scenes in Renly's camp (to me, anyway) show three vastly different characters, which makes me think the show-runners are doing an incredibly good job handling just how involved he is with the machinations of the game. It seems insanely ironic that the community is effectively falling for Littlefinger's act.
When he's talking to Renly, he simply says that, hey, I'll give you KL if you let me keep my head... and my position, if possible. Then, with Margarey, he's a little more involved - verbally sparring with her; sounding her out, seeing how smart she is. With Cat, he's passionate as soon as he walks through the door, then backs off to plant the seed and give back the bones.
Am I reading the scenes incorrectly? Has his character been shown consistently, and I'm just crazy?
The folks over on censoros are not the most sophisticated of fans, I've found. I like ASOIAF because it isn't a standard fantasy story, full of cliches and tropes. But that's apparently what many of those folks there want. I find it incomprehensible.
Littlefinger is great because he, along with Varys, is the most effective player of the game of thrones. It's compounded all the more by the fact that he has the most humble of (noble) origins. He's basically the only example of a self-made man in Westeros. All the other potential examples (possibly Varys, most definitely Illyrio Mopantis) come from the Free Cities that, for whatever their issues, lack the feudal system that prevails in the Seven Kingdoms.
I agree with you that the show has been doing a good job showing all of his subtleties. I'm very interested to see what they do for his character in the next season.
The folks over on censoros are not the most sophisticated of fans, I've found. I like ASOIAF because it isn't a standard fantasy story, full of cliches and tropes. But that's apparently what many of those folks there want. I find it incomprehensible.
This is how I feel about any Jon + Dany theories (and in a larger sense, the entire Jon Snow issue, even though I see the hints as much as anyone else).
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Remind me why Dany wouldn't show her dragons to the guys outside Qarth again? Was that just because they would see they were babies and just take them from her? I don't remember any standoff like that in the books.
Posts
When he's talking to Renly, he simply says that, hey, I'll give you KL if you let me keep my head... and my position, if possible. Then, with Margarey, he's a little more involved - verbally sparring with her; sounding her out, seeing how smart she is. With Cat, he's passionate as soon as he walks through the door, then backs off to plant the seed and give back the bones.
Am I reading the scenes incorrectly? Has his character been shown consistently, and I'm just crazy?
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
promo for next ep
at :25
Yes. Maybe what's happening is
Also, almost as worrisome for departures, Jaqen
That second spoiler is actually from the book.
Strange. I had not thought that
maybe that's what he's saying
Actually, right after I posted that, it occurred to me that
I don't have confirmation on this or anything, but it makes a certain degree of sense.
The official line from the Faceless is that
though I share your suspicion that this is not entirely true, and that the Many Faced God is the Other.
It's the Red God in particular this time because they were going to burn to death.
About Jaqen:
I don't think followers of the Many-Faced God necessarily have to know the ins and outs of all the religions in the world - just that death is always a part of them.
As for Brienne:
I believe you're right, that's a shame.
Maybe they'll just work that reaction into her conversations with Catelyn instead?
Considering how expensive fight scenes are, there must be some pretty good reason for it
The reason could just be "We don't want to make the audience wait three years to see Brienne prove herself in mortal combat"
Which seems like a not terrible reason, but the payoff, of following her for the three years before that scene takes place, would have been excellent.
[e]
And they can still do that scene with a couple of evil random dudes. It's not as fun as shagwell, but probably a lot cheaper and easier.
But I loved the actor from the first season. Even without lines, he could convey an "all of you can go fuck yourselves" attitude and really managed to embody the Mountain I knew from the books.
Yeah, like I buy him as evil, but he looks middle-eastern and kind of unassuming, which is scary, but not the Mountain kind of scar. He kind of reminded me of count dooku, when he should remind me of like a giant wrestler. I mean I guess it shows how hard it is to be big and muscley at that height, Conan Stevens was a freak. Also the armour and chainmail made him look lanky, like it didnt give him any shoulders, also the hat, while fine on regular soldiers, looks downright Knights Who Say Ni on the new Mountain.
I think they could make him work, but I have a feeling that by the time more Mountain scenes come, they may just hire Conan again if he's done with Hobbit filming. At least thats what im hoping, especially with later fight scenes, as Conana Stevens is a trained stunt fighter and whatnot
But yeah, hopefully old gregor comes back next season. That'd be swell
Speaking of; I've been watching the Wire again and could really see Dominc West playing that part (Him or Mance Rayder strangely enough).
The responses you got all sucked. Here, in spoiler form, is what it is. It isn't that big of a deal. I'm describing it in detail, but I'm not going to actually spoil major events it relates to, not even in the spoiler.
Most of her spells are wicked evil shit that depend on her exploiting the power of aristocratic bodily fluids. Every time Stannis deposits a load, she births a Stannis shadow demon that does her and Stannis' will.
It made way more sense in the books. In the books, Davos and Mel do the boat thing much later. At that point, we already have vague knowledge of some sort of shadow demon that did some shit earlier, and assume it had something to do with Mel, but with very little detail on what it was or how it did what it did. So when Mel births one, it's filling in some pretty interesting details for the reader. But the problem here is that in the show, the previous event with the shadow demon hasn't happened yet. So ending the show with her birthing a demon just leaves you like, "eh?"
I assume that they are combining and reversing the shadow-demon events from the books. So likely in the next episode you'll get to see one or both of the things that this demon does.
As for Hodor, with the proper design, it isn't that tough to carry a decent weight on your shoulders. I've known some rather small dads to carry some rather large sons (not teens, but still) in one of those shoulder-chair hiking deals.
Yes. What they are doing is smushing things down pretty hard. In the book
I didnt like the change really as the book version was far more mysterious and would have worked better for the non book people.
But continuing the discussion: also a big point of the demon birth in the book was supposed to be a moment of "ah-ha, so that's what it was..." for the reader. Except in show, the previous event hasn't happened yet, so it's just a moment of "uh, what are they doing, and what is that supposed to be?"
In both the book and the show (where the scenes are quite identical), it is nevertheless a gritty moment of realization of just how much of a black sorceress Mel really must be.
Davos and Mel's argument is key here.
First, it's Davos saying "we're all a bit good and a bit bad, I'm trying to be as good as I can and all I know is I'm loyal to Stannis" vs. Mel's "nuh-uh, we're either good or evil, and I'm good because I serve the God of Light." This ties into a lot of what people debate about morality in the book itself, as well as differences in views of morality in modern life. From the reader/viewer's point of view, it would seem that Davos is mostly correct about everyone being a bit of both, and just trying in some way to live up to their decisions. Whereas Mel seems to be misguided if she thinks that a) everyone is just good or bad, and b) her religion makes her unquestionably good.
Then the argument moves to Davos' accusation of "serving the light but hiding in shadows" vs. Mel's rationalization that "shadows are the servants of light." Again IMO same deal here. Davos seems to have a good gut feeling about this. If this God of Light is what it is made out to be, how come Mel is always doing shit at night, and in secret, and in hiding, etc. Mel, on the other hand, has a religious rationalization for everything (this is even more evident in the books). She's right, in a way, shadows really are the servants of light and don't exist without it. But this seems to be a technical rationaliztion that doesn't defeat the general correctness of Davos' feelings. And this debate is greatly intensified by watching this supposed Servant of Light strip down and birth a bastard demon of darkness. Not to mention the fact that the whole reason Davos had to sneak her in was to get her past some ancient magic walls that were built to keep out evil spirits.
Also, in the book it is never explicit, but it is implied that Stannis is not entirely in control of his mind, and that Mel has some power over him, particularly at night, and that Stannis is actually not consciously aware of the fact that she has been sleeping with him. It is not like Stannis at all to cheat, and a promise of an embarrassing bastard son, like ones Robert had all over the place, would have been just another reason not to; it would not have been an enticement.
On the Littlefinger front I have no problem with the way he is being presented. I think him and Varys are perfectly done for the limited screen time they are getting.
Which is perfect for the character.
Anyone else get a vibe that Mel and the Sheep people witch that got burned at the funeral Pyre are similar? Remember how Dany's baby is described as when it came out? It strikes me as very similar to that thing I just saw Mel pop out. And while the show differed, in the book, didn't the Drogo getting blood magic done to him thing happen at night as well? Unless I am misremembering, oh well, I'll re-read it soon enough.
If I remember correctly didnt that witch also train at Asshai?
The folks over on censoros are not the most sophisticated of fans, I've found. I like ASOIAF because it isn't a standard fantasy story, full of cliches and tropes. But that's apparently what many of those folks there want. I find it incomprehensible.
Littlefinger is great because he, along with Varys, is the most effective player of the game of thrones. It's compounded all the more by the fact that he has the most humble of (noble) origins. He's basically the only example of a self-made man in Westeros. All the other potential examples (possibly Varys, most definitely Illyrio Mopantis) come from the Free Cities that, for whatever their issues, lack the feudal system that prevails in the Seven Kingdoms.
I agree with you that the show has been doing a good job showing all of his subtleties. I'm very interested to see what they do for his character in the next season.
This is how I feel about any Jon + Dany theories (and in a larger sense, the entire Jon Snow issue, even though I see the hints as much as anyone else).