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[Bitching Thread VI] A Brand New Day (for bitching)

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Posts

  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    Hey I watched the Return of Jafar!

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  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    Man, I just bought Ghostbusters 1 and 2, as well as The Real Ghostbusters. I'm not against crass commercialization.

    But, the oft-rumored Ghostbusters 3, that'd feature a bunch of old, fat guys fighting CGI monsters, presumably sans the reluctant Bill Murray and retired Rick Moranis?

    I'd probably sit that one out.

  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Munch wrote: »
    Man, I just bought Ghostbusters 1 and 2, as well as The Real Ghostbusters. I'm not against crass commercialization.

    But, the oft-rumored Ghostbusters 3, that'd feature a bunch of old, fat guys fighting CGI monsters, presumably sans the reluctant Bill Murray and retired Rick Moranis?

    I'd probably sit that one out.

    I thought that Video game they did with most of the original cast doing voices was supposed to be Ghostbusters 3? ( /fuel)

  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    munch we need to chat this out when I am not working, but i'll make some points:

    when you bring up diminishing returns, yeah that can happen. that risk, however, is still smaller than introducing brand new ip. people like familiarity. so, yeah before watchmen may not sell as much as watchmen, but it still will sell more than say, batwing. and that's a positive.

    don't get me wrong, before watchmen is a blatant cash grab, but so is everything else, or comics would be free. every issue ends in a way to blatantly try to get you to buy the next issue. every movie is marketed to tailor-made recepients. every tv show ends with a stinger to make you want to see more. there is no incentive to make anything great, just stuff that sells well. all media is a cash grab, when you get down to it, and even though moore had a shitty contract and got fucked, he isn't special, he's just alive.

    you might think that last point is tired, but it isn't. bottom line is DC owns his work right now, and saying it is off limits isn't cool. even if moore says no. remember when liefeld got all pissy about shatterstar being gay? did people back him? no. don't tell me it isn't the same because it is.

    and when I say all I say, I have no anger or any condesension, either. I didn't call you a jerk or anything like that. just stated how I viewed the facts. I am not taking this personally, so don't do the same, munch. we bros still. even if I am the devil.

    and though I accept all of this as a reality, it don't mean I like it or support it. I just realize that is how shit is done. entertainment is a fucked industry. that's why I will never do anything corporate.

    and why chupacomics is gonna take years longer because i'd have to pay money to change this


  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    I'm just not sure what your point is, here. It seems to be, "DC has the legal right to do this, and are exercising that right."

    You're just stating facts, which I don't think are surprising or novel to anyone.

    I'm perfectly aware that DC has the legal right to do this, and that it makes financial sense for them to do it. Everyone understands that.

    Also, the Shatterstar thing is different. People didn't make fun of Liefeld for objecting to the way a character he'd created was being portrayed. Liefeld wasn't angry that a character he knowingly created under work-for-hire was being used in a new story, and he didn't offer a reasoned, nuanced explanation for why this new story didn't fit with his vision of the character.

    No, he just offered a simple, childish implication that gay people can't also be warriors.

    As the guy that created, designed and wrote his first dozen appearances, Shatterstar is not gay. Sorry. Can't wait to someday undo this... Shatterstar is akin to Maximus in Gladiator. He's a warrior, a Spartan, and not a gay one.

    Also, at what point have I said Watchmen is off-limits? I recognize that DC has the right and the motivation. I just think it's stupid.

    Anyhow, I think we've talked ourselves in circles enough for the night, so I'm just going to stop talking about this now.

    Munch on
  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    If Darwyn Cooke or Azzarello and JG Jones were writing/drawing Batwing, that would be a better way to increase a new IP.

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  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus ha ha just kidding I'm Frog ManRegistered User regular
    Personally, I'm wondering how much better the New 52 lineup could have been if they hadn't been splitting their efforts between it and Before Watchmen. It really seems like talented creators like Darwyn Cooke and Amanda Connor could have been doing interesting things with the relaunch instead of this mess.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Munch wrote: »
    Man, I just bought Ghostbusters 1 and 2, as well as The Real Ghostbusters. I'm not against crass commercialization.

    But, the oft-rumored Ghostbusters 3, that'd feature a bunch of old, fat guys fighting CGI monsters, presumably sans the reluctant Bill Murray and retired Rick Moranis?

    I'd probably sit that one out.

    I'd prefer they just reboot the series. Or do an Extreme Ghostbusters franchise, keeping the previous films in canon. That said, Murray was being a dick for not bothering to read the scripts for Ghostbusters 3 sent to him and not responding whether he'd be in the film or not.

    Harry Dresden on
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    Honestly I gotta say I am with TLB on this one

    I am somewhere in between

    I do think that artistic freedom is good, and if that also means shit like a Mark Millar rape story then I guess that is what you have to put up with in order to let people make what they want.

    At the same time though, that doesn't mean I can't disparage someone for writing a creatively bankrupt piece of shit

  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    I think my point gets more dilluted the more frustrated I get at work, and I don't have the energy or where withall to go back and get my train of thought on the rails again.

    Instead I will say all comics should be like Ostrander's Suicide Squad

  • BlankzillaBlankzilla The Year 198X Being Xtreme to the MaxxRegistered User regular
    What TLB is saying is that all comics should murder Grant Morrison

  • AntimatterAntimatter if you want to talk to me look elsewhere.Registered User regular
    literally no comic should do that again

  • GustavGustav Registered User regular
    Honestly, the more I learned about the Kirby situation in particular, the more guilty I just felt buying the books that featured his characters. Same with how I feel about the Before Watchmen situation. Now I just decided to completely stop buying books from DC or Marvel.

    Legality isn't really a point for me. Nor is boycotting or trying to get other people to quit reading these books. It's just my own personal morals state that what they did was wrong. Even if I accept that the industry is a pretty cold and calculating operation, even if in all ways of the law they are in the right, it doesn't mean I have to continue supporting them.

    Some people don't feel that way, which is fine. Different strokes and the like.

    And while I miss some of those books, it's more money I can throw towards Indie books. And I'm pretty sure those are markets geared to my tastes and views anyways.

  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    What TLB is saying is that all comics should murder Grant Morrison

    on every page

    then it is revealed that that book is being written by grant morisson

    who, naturally, dies

  • FramlingFramling Registered User regular
    I don't think they should do Watchmen prequels.

    I think they should do a Watchmen sequel. Call it Watchmen 2.

    It should be set about 25 years after Watchmen, and be about a bunch of new superheroes taking up the mantles of the characters in the original.

    Except the public all instantly hate them, and indignantly bitch about them constantly. Everyone insists the original superheroes were a million times better, and that these new superheroes are just shitting all over the memories of their predecessors. They'll complain that the new Dr. Manhattan just doesn't get what the real Dr. Manhattan was all about, or that the new Silk Spectre's boobs are too big and everything's just all about sex anymore. These new superheroes are obviously just in it for the cash grab, they don't care about the history of superheroics or the desires of the original heroes. People will insist that there should never be another Comedian or Owlman or whoever, because it's just impossible that they could ever be anything but a shitty insult.

    you're = you are
    your = belonging to you

    their = belonging to them
    there = not here
    they're = they are
  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    What TLB is saying is that all comics should murder Grant Morrison

    on every page

    then it is revealed that that book is being written by grant morisson

    who, naturally, dies

    Whatever Happened To The Writer Of Tomorrow?

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  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    I'm actually pretty okay with there being another Owlman.

    Crime Syndicate 4 lyfe.

  • Linespider5Linespider5 It’s cool to have a code name. It’s not that weird.Registered User regular
    One particular thing I think I keep getting hung up on is this concept of "the spirit of the contract". There's no such thing. It's a very nebulous idea that is up to interpretation. You put a legally binding contract in place in order to get away from exactly that. It sucks, but it is what it is.

    Unfortunately he's right. Contracts are crafted as unyielding legal machinery. Exponentially moreso when a corporation is one of the two parties involved. Think of it as a Choose Your Own Adventure where all the eventualities are there ensuring predetermined consequences for all involved parties. A greater consequence to these things is the crux of agreeing to things that seem alright at the time of signing that prove to become less than advantageous in the years to come.

    You can bet that if it was the other way around and Moore had in the writing some definition wherein he had the upper hand in this, he would have DC's balls in an iron grip from hell to breakfast. No 'spirit of the contract' stuff would be coming from him.

    There's also the fun of the legal precedents too, wherein if DC did decide to revert their agreement just for Alan Moore, anyone else would step up and use that as a sticking point for their own legal grievances with the company. Whether or not anyone else has justifiable grievances or not. The point is the contract will stand to prevent uncontrollable legal chaos that DC views as a catalyst towards bringing the entire company to a standstill. Rather than just give creators their due, this would likely only serve to eat DC alive.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Framling wrote: »
    I don't think they should do Watchmen prequels.

    I think they should do a Watchmen sequel. Call it Watchmen 2.

    It should be set about 25 years after Watchmen, and be about a bunch of new superheroes taking up the mantles of the characters in the original.

    Except the public all instantly hate them, and indignantly bitch about them constantly. Everyone insists the original superheroes were a million times better, and that these new superheroes are just shitting all over the memories of their predecessors. They'll complain that the new Dr. Manhattan just doesn't get what the real Dr. Manhattan was all about, or that the new Silk Spectre's boobs are too big and everything's just all about sex anymore. These new superheroes are obviously just in it for the cash grab, they don't care about the history of superheroics or the desires of the original heroes. People will insist that there should never be another Comedian or Owlman or whoever, because it's just impossible that they could ever be anything but a shitty insult.

    Too far from the original concept. They can't keep the original characters involved in the stories with that concept (though I think it has potential taking the Watchmen universe into a new direction).

  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    Contracts are never ironclad.

    DC and Marvel, or rather TimeWarner and Disney can just afford more and better lawyers who can, will, do, and have stretched out lawsuits by much poorer plaintiffs until they are just worn down.

  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    I'll beg to differ on that.

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  • FramlingFramling Registered User regular
    Framling wrote: »
    I don't think they should do Watchmen prequels.

    I think they should do a Watchmen sequel. Call it Watchmen 2.

    It should be set about 25 years after Watchmen, and be about a bunch of new superheroes taking up the mantles of the characters in the original.

    Except the public all instantly hate them, and indignantly bitch about them constantly. Everyone insists the original superheroes were a million times better, and that these new superheroes are just shitting all over the memories of their predecessors. They'll complain that the new Dr. Manhattan just doesn't get what the real Dr. Manhattan was all about, or that the new Silk Spectre's boobs are too big and everything's just all about sex anymore. These new superheroes are obviously just in it for the cash grab, they don't care about the history of superheroics or the desires of the original heroes. People will insist that there should never be another Comedian or Owlman or whoever, because it's just impossible that they could ever be anything but a shitty insult.

    Too far from the original concept. They can't keep the original characters involved in the stories with that concept (though I think it has potential taking the Watchmen universe into a new direction).

    That's kind of my point. Any attempt to expand the Watchmen universe will almost inevitably be hated by angry nerds. The only possible way for it to work is if you take it in a new direction.

    As it is, Watchmen is a great commentary on the state of comics as a medium in the 1980s. Nobody lives in the 1980s anymore, though. People live in the 2010s now, and the state of the medium and the industry is the big publishers releasing sequels and nerds complaining about the sequels not being as good as the originals.

    you're = you are
    your = belonging to you

    their = belonging to them
    there = not here
    they're = they are
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    Before Watchmen is certainly a commentary on the state of the comics industry in 2012.

  • CadeCade Registered User regular
    If that's the case what is it when Marvel is trying to replace Nick Fury with Nice Fury from the movies/Ultimate universe.

    Makes me wonder how long it will take for someone to eventually kill him off or reveal him to be an android while the original Nick is doing some secret agent thing.

  • Linespider5Linespider5 It’s cool to have a code name. It’s not that weird.Registered User regular
    Cade wrote: »
    If that's the case what is it when Marvel is trying to replace Nick Fury with Nice Fury from the movies/Ultimate universe.

    Makes me wonder how long it will take for someone to eventually kill him off or reveal him to be an android while the original Nick is doing some secret agent thing.

    Offhand? 2-6 years, depending on how long Samuel L. Jackson wants to keep being Nick Fury on the big screen.

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  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    When has SLJ ever turned down a role? :)

    Munch wrote: »
    Before Watchmen is certainly a commentary on the state of the comics industry in 2012.

    2ilnakz.gif

    Crimsondude on
  • cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    David Hasselhoff will always be Nick Fury to me.
    nick-fury-david-hasselhoff-lisa-rinna-dvd-marvel-comics-2913.jpg

    cshadow42 on
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  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    that is the least action hero "running atcha!" pose I've ever seen.

    Which is in it's own way rather glorious.

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    Nick Fury moves at a slow, yet determined, shuffle.

  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    Daredevil #10.1, 11, and by by extension the entire Omega Effect story ends in a way where you could go from #10 to 12 and not miss a beat. #11 spoilers
    Spoiler:

    At least when Steve Urkel crossed over into Full House that one episode it was character building for Stephanie dealing with having to wear glasses.

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  • Linespider5Linespider5 It’s cool to have a code name. It’s not that weird.Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Daredevil #10.1, 11, and by by extension the entire Omega Effect story ends in a way where you could go from #10 to 12 and not miss a beat. #11 spoilers
    Spoiler:

    At least when Steve Urkel crossed over into Full House that one episode it was character building for Stephanie dealing with having to wear glasses.

    Never change, Tex.

    2014png.png
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    I agree, actually. It was a three-issue holding pattern.

    Well-written, and beautifully drawn, but nothing was resolved. Ten dollars and sixty pages, and we're right back where we were at the start of the story.

  • BlankzillaBlankzilla The Year 198X Being Xtreme to the MaxxRegistered User regular
    I agree there was no real resolution

    but I enjoyed each issue a lot and had fun the whole crossover, so I definitely got my money's worth.

  • BlankzillaBlankzilla The Year 198X Being Xtreme to the MaxxRegistered User regular
    edited April 2012
    also I want Marco Chechetto to draw everything

    his art is fucking gorgeous

    Blankzilla on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    Have you been reading Rucka's Punisher, before now?

    If not, you should check it out.

    It's pretty good.

  • BlankzillaBlankzilla The Year 198X Being Xtreme to the MaxxRegistered User regular
    I got the first issue but nothing past it

    not because it wasn't good, I just didn't have the money

  • FuruFuru Registered User regular
    Tex Space Punisher appears to be a separate universe

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  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    Aw really? After Frank-Castle it just kind of made sense.

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  • HenslerHensler Registered User regular
    Munch wrote: »
    Have you been reading Rucka's Punisher, before now?

    If not, you should check it out.

    It's pretty good.

    You're so cool sometimes, Muncharoo.

This discussion has been closed.