Man, I just bought Ghostbusters 1 and 2, as well as The Real Ghostbusters. I'm not against crass commercialization.
But, the oft-rumored Ghostbusters 3, that'd feature a bunch of old, fat guys fighting CGI monsters, presumably sans the reluctant Bill Murray and retired Rick Moranis?
Man, I just bought Ghostbusters 1 and 2, as well as The Real Ghostbusters. I'm not against crass commercialization.
But, the oft-rumored Ghostbusters 3, that'd feature a bunch of old, fat guys fighting CGI monsters, presumably sans the reluctant Bill Murray and retired Rick Moranis?
I'd probably sit that one out.
I thought that Video game they did with most of the original cast doing voices was supposed to be Ghostbusters 3? ( /fuel)
munch we need to chat this out when I am not working, but i'll make some points:
when you bring up diminishing returns, yeah that can happen. that risk, however, is still smaller than introducing brand new ip. people like familiarity. so, yeah before watchmen may not sell as much as watchmen, but it still will sell more than say, batwing. and that's a positive.
don't get me wrong, before watchmen is a blatant cash grab, but so is everything else, or comics would be free. every issue ends in a way to blatantly try to get you to buy the next issue. every movie is marketed to tailor-made recepients. every tv show ends with a stinger to make you want to see more. there is no incentive to make anything great, just stuff that sells well. all media is a cash grab, when you get down to it, and even though moore had a shitty contract and got fucked, he isn't special, he's just alive.
you might think that last point is tired, but it isn't. bottom line is DC owns his work right now, and saying it is off limits isn't cool. even if moore says no. remember when liefeld got all pissy about shatterstar being gay? did people back him? no. don't tell me it isn't the same because it is.
and when I say all I say, I have no anger or any condesension, either. I didn't call you a jerk or anything like that. just stated how I viewed the facts. I am not taking this personally, so don't do the same, munch. we bros still. even if I am the devil.
and though I accept all of this as a reality, it don't mean I like it or support it. I just realize that is how shit is done. entertainment is a fucked industry. that's why I will never do anything corporate.
and why chupacomics is gonna take years longer because i'd have to pay money to change this
I'm just not sure what your point is, here. It seems to be, "DC has the legal right to do this, and are exercising that right."
You're just stating facts, which I don't think are surprising or novel to anyone.
I'm perfectly aware that DC has the legal right to do this, and that it makes financial sense for them to do it. Everyone understands that.
Also, the Shatterstar thing is different. People didn't make fun of Liefeld for objecting to the way a character he'd created was being portrayed. Liefeld wasn't angry that a character he knowingly created under work-for-hire was being used in a new story, and he didn't offer a reasoned, nuanced explanation for why this new story didn't fit with his vision of the character.
No, he just offered a simple, childish implication that gay people can't also be warriors.
As the guy that created, designed and wrote his first dozen appearances, Shatterstar is not gay. Sorry. Can't wait to someday undo this... Shatterstar is akin to Maximus in Gladiator. He's a warrior, a Spartan, and not a gay one.
Also, at what point have I said Watchmen is off-limits? I recognize that DC has the right and the motivation. I just think it's stupid.
Anyhow, I think we've talked ourselves in circles enough for the night, so I'm just going to stop talking about this now.
Personally, I'm wondering how much better the New 52 lineup could have been if they hadn't been splitting their efforts between it and Before Watchmen. It really seems like talented creators like Darwyn Cooke and Amanda Connor could have been doing interesting things with the relaunch instead of this mess.
Man, I just bought Ghostbusters 1 and 2, as well as The Real Ghostbusters. I'm not against crass commercialization.
But, the oft-rumored Ghostbusters 3, that'd feature a bunch of old, fat guys fighting CGI monsters, presumably sans the reluctant Bill Murray and retired Rick Moranis?
I'd probably sit that one out.
I'd prefer they just reboot the series. Or do an Extreme Ghostbusters franchise, keeping the previous films in canon. That said, Murray was being a dick for not bothering to read the scripts for Ghostbusters 3 sent to him and not responding whether he'd be in the film or not.
I do think that artistic freedom is good, and if that also means shit like a Mark Millar rape story then I guess that is what you have to put up with in order to let people make what they want.
At the same time though, that doesn't mean I can't disparage someone for writing a creatively bankrupt piece of shit
I think my point gets more dilluted the more frustrated I get at work, and I don't have the energy or where withall to go back and get my train of thought on the rails again.
Instead I will say all comics should be like Ostrander's Suicide Squad
What TLB is saying is that all comics should murder Grant Morrison
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AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
literally no comic should do that again
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GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
Honestly, the more I learned about the Kirby situation in particular, the more guilty I just felt buying the books that featured his characters. Same with how I feel about the Before Watchmen situation. Now I just decided to completely stop buying books from DC or Marvel.
Legality isn't really a point for me. Nor is boycotting or trying to get other people to quit reading these books. It's just my own personal morals state that what they did was wrong. Even if I accept that the industry is a pretty cold and calculating operation, even if in all ways of the law they are in the right, it doesn't mean I have to continue supporting them.
Some people don't feel that way, which is fine. Different strokes and the like.
And while I miss some of those books, it's more money I can throw towards Indie books. And I'm pretty sure those are markets geared to my tastes and views anyways.
What TLB is saying is that all comics should murder Grant Morrison
on every page
then it is revealed that that book is being written by grant morisson
who, naturally, dies
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FramlingFaceHeadGeebs has bad ideas.Registered Userregular
I don't think they should do Watchmen prequels.
I think they should do a Watchmen sequel. Call it Watchmen 2.
It should be set about 25 years after Watchmen, and be about a bunch of new superheroes taking up the mantles of the characters in the original.
Except the public all instantly hate them, and indignantly bitch about them constantly. Everyone insists the original superheroes were a million times better, and that these new superheroes are just shitting all over the memories of their predecessors. They'll complain that the new Dr. Manhattan just doesn't get what the real Dr. Manhattan was all about, or that the new Silk Spectre's boobs are too big and everything's just all about sex anymore. These new superheroes are obviously just in it for the cash grab, they don't care about the history of superheroics or the desires of the original heroes. People will insist that there should never be another Comedian or Owlman or whoever, because it's just impossible that they could ever be anything but a shitty insult.
you're = you are
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
One particular thing I think I keep getting hung up on is this concept of "the spirit of the contract". There's no such thing. It's a very nebulous idea that is up to interpretation. You put a legally binding contract in place in order to get away from exactly that. It sucks, but it is what it is.
Unfortunately he's right. Contracts are crafted as unyielding legal machinery. Exponentially moreso when a corporation is one of the two parties involved. Think of it as a Choose Your Own Adventure where all the eventualities are there ensuring predetermined consequences for all involved parties. A greater consequence to these things is the crux of agreeing to things that seem alright at the time of signing that prove to become less than advantageous in the years to come.
You can bet that if it was the other way around and Moore had in the writing some definition wherein he had the upper hand in this, he would have DC's balls in an iron grip from hell to breakfast. No 'spirit of the contract' stuff would be coming from him.
There's also the fun of the legal precedents too, wherein if DC did decide to revert their agreement just for Alan Moore, anyone else would step up and use that as a sticking point for their own legal grievances with the company. Whether or not anyone else has justifiable grievances or not. The point is the contract will stand to prevent uncontrollable legal chaos that DC views as a catalyst towards bringing the entire company to a standstill. Rather than just give creators their due, this would likely only serve to eat DC alive.
I think they should do a Watchmen sequel. Call it Watchmen 2.
It should be set about 25 years after Watchmen, and be about a bunch of new superheroes taking up the mantles of the characters in the original.
Except the public all instantly hate them, and indignantly bitch about them constantly. Everyone insists the original superheroes were a million times better, and that these new superheroes are just shitting all over the memories of their predecessors. They'll complain that the new Dr. Manhattan just doesn't get what the real Dr. Manhattan was all about, or that the new Silk Spectre's boobs are too big and everything's just all about sex anymore. These new superheroes are obviously just in it for the cash grab, they don't care about the history of superheroics or the desires of the original heroes. People will insist that there should never be another Comedian or Owlman or whoever, because it's just impossible that they could ever be anything but a shitty insult.
Too far from the original concept. They can't keep the original characters involved in the stories with that concept (though I think it has potential taking the Watchmen universe into a new direction).
DC and Marvel, or rather TimeWarner and Disney can just afford more and better lawyers who can, will, do, and have stretched out lawsuits by much poorer plaintiffs until they are just worn down.
I think they should do a Watchmen sequel. Call it Watchmen 2.
It should be set about 25 years after Watchmen, and be about a bunch of new superheroes taking up the mantles of the characters in the original.
Except the public all instantly hate them, and indignantly bitch about them constantly. Everyone insists the original superheroes were a million times better, and that these new superheroes are just shitting all over the memories of their predecessors. They'll complain that the new Dr. Manhattan just doesn't get what the real Dr. Manhattan was all about, or that the new Silk Spectre's boobs are too big and everything's just all about sex anymore. These new superheroes are obviously just in it for the cash grab, they don't care about the history of superheroics or the desires of the original heroes. People will insist that there should never be another Comedian or Owlman or whoever, because it's just impossible that they could ever be anything but a shitty insult.
Too far from the original concept. They can't keep the original characters involved in the stories with that concept (though I think it has potential taking the Watchmen universe into a new direction).
That's kind of my point. Any attempt to expand the Watchmen universe will almost inevitably be hated by angry nerds. The only possible way for it to work is if you take it in a new direction.
As it is, Watchmen is a great commentary on the state of comics as a medium in the 1980s. Nobody lives in the 1980s anymore, though. People live in the 2010s now, and the state of the medium and the industry is the big publishers releasing sequels and nerds complaining about the sequels not being as good as the originals.
you're = you are
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
If that's the case what is it when Marvel is trying to replace Nick Fury with Nice Fury from the movies/Ultimate universe.
Makes me wonder how long it will take for someone to eventually kill him off or reveal him to be an android while the original Nick is doing some secret agent thing.
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
If that's the case what is it when Marvel is trying to replace Nick Fury with Nice Fury from the movies/Ultimate universe.
Makes me wonder how long it will take for someone to eventually kill him off or reveal him to be an android while the original Nick is doing some secret agent thing.
Offhand? 2-6 years, depending on how long Samuel L. Jackson wants to keep being Nick Fury on the big screen.
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Daredevil #10.1, 11, and by by extension the entire Omega Effect story ends in a way where you could go from #10 to 12 and not miss a beat. #11 spoilers
The device isn't destroyed, no big breakthroughs that really have any lasting effect, Cole disappears for a bit but will probably come back to Frank probably after he goes into space if not sooner, and they all go their own ways in the end. Frank doesn't even kill someone just to piss off the others.
It's just the way it ends too that kind of has me wondering what the point was, if it was just one issue of any of the books, or the .1, it wouldn't be such a letdown.
At least when Steve Urkel crossed over into Full House that one episode it was character building for Stephanie dealing with having to wear glasses.
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
Daredevil #10.1, 11, and by by extension the entire Omega Effect story ends in a way where you could go from #10 to 12 and not miss a beat. #11 spoilers
The device isn't destroyed, no big breakthroughs that really have any lasting effect, Cole disappears for a bit but will probably come back to Frank probably after he goes into space if not sooner, and they all go their own ways in the end. Frank doesn't even kill someone just to piss off the others.
It's just the way it ends too that kind of has me wondering what the point was, if it was just one issue of any of the books, or the .1, it wouldn't be such a letdown.
At least when Steve Urkel crossed over into Full House that one episode it was character building for Stephanie dealing with having to wear glasses.
I agree, actually. It was a three-issue holding pattern.
Well-written, and beautifully drawn, but nothing was resolved. Ten dollars and sixty pages, and we're right back where we were at the start of the story.
Posts
But, the oft-rumored Ghostbusters 3, that'd feature a bunch of old, fat guys fighting CGI monsters, presumably sans the reluctant Bill Murray and retired Rick Moranis?
I'd probably sit that one out.
Tumblr Twitter
I thought that Video game they did with most of the original cast doing voices was supposed to be Ghostbusters 3? ( /fuel)
when you bring up diminishing returns, yeah that can happen. that risk, however, is still smaller than introducing brand new ip. people like familiarity. so, yeah before watchmen may not sell as much as watchmen, but it still will sell more than say, batwing. and that's a positive.
don't get me wrong, before watchmen is a blatant cash grab, but so is everything else, or comics would be free. every issue ends in a way to blatantly try to get you to buy the next issue. every movie is marketed to tailor-made recepients. every tv show ends with a stinger to make you want to see more. there is no incentive to make anything great, just stuff that sells well. all media is a cash grab, when you get down to it, and even though moore had a shitty contract and got fucked, he isn't special, he's just alive.
you might think that last point is tired, but it isn't. bottom line is DC owns his work right now, and saying it is off limits isn't cool. even if moore says no. remember when liefeld got all pissy about shatterstar being gay? did people back him? no. don't tell me it isn't the same because it is.
and when I say all I say, I have no anger or any condesension, either. I didn't call you a jerk or anything like that. just stated how I viewed the facts. I am not taking this personally, so don't do the same, munch. we bros still. even if I am the devil.
and though I accept all of this as a reality, it don't mean I like it or support it. I just realize that is how shit is done. entertainment is a fucked industry. that's why I will never do anything corporate.
and why chupacomics is gonna take years longer because i'd have to pay money to change this
You're just stating facts, which I don't think are surprising or novel to anyone.
I'm perfectly aware that DC has the legal right to do this, and that it makes financial sense for them to do it. Everyone understands that.
Also, the Shatterstar thing is different. People didn't make fun of Liefeld for objecting to the way a character he'd created was being portrayed. Liefeld wasn't angry that a character he knowingly created under work-for-hire was being used in a new story, and he didn't offer a reasoned, nuanced explanation for why this new story didn't fit with his vision of the character.
No, he just offered a simple, childish implication that gay people can't also be warriors.
Also, at what point have I said Watchmen is off-limits? I recognize that DC has the right and the motivation. I just think it's stupid.
Anyhow, I think we've talked ourselves in circles enough for the night, so I'm just going to stop talking about this now.
Tumblr Twitter
I'd prefer they just reboot the series. Or do an Extreme Ghostbusters franchise, keeping the previous films in canon. That said, Murray was being a dick for not bothering to read the scripts for Ghostbusters 3 sent to him and not responding whether he'd be in the film or not.
I am somewhere in between
I do think that artistic freedom is good, and if that also means shit like a Mark Millar rape story then I guess that is what you have to put up with in order to let people make what they want.
At the same time though, that doesn't mean I can't disparage someone for writing a creatively bankrupt piece of shit
Instead I will say all comics should be like Ostrander's Suicide Squad
Legality isn't really a point for me. Nor is boycotting or trying to get other people to quit reading these books. It's just my own personal morals state that what they did was wrong. Even if I accept that the industry is a pretty cold and calculating operation, even if in all ways of the law they are in the right, it doesn't mean I have to continue supporting them.
Some people don't feel that way, which is fine. Different strokes and the like.
And while I miss some of those books, it's more money I can throw towards Indie books. And I'm pretty sure those are markets geared to my tastes and views anyways.
on every page
then it is revealed that that book is being written by grant morisson
who, naturally, dies
I think they should do a Watchmen sequel. Call it Watchmen 2.
It should be set about 25 years after Watchmen, and be about a bunch of new superheroes taking up the mantles of the characters in the original.
Except the public all instantly hate them, and indignantly bitch about them constantly. Everyone insists the original superheroes were a million times better, and that these new superheroes are just shitting all over the memories of their predecessors. They'll complain that the new Dr. Manhattan just doesn't get what the real Dr. Manhattan was all about, or that the new Silk Spectre's boobs are too big and everything's just all about sex anymore. These new superheroes are obviously just in it for the cash grab, they don't care about the history of superheroics or the desires of the original heroes. People will insist that there should never be another Comedian or Owlman or whoever, because it's just impossible that they could ever be anything but a shitty insult.
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
Whatever Happened To The Writer Of Tomorrow?
Crime Syndicate 4 lyfe.
Tumblr Twitter
Unfortunately he's right. Contracts are crafted as unyielding legal machinery. Exponentially moreso when a corporation is one of the two parties involved. Think of it as a Choose Your Own Adventure where all the eventualities are there ensuring predetermined consequences for all involved parties. A greater consequence to these things is the crux of agreeing to things that seem alright at the time of signing that prove to become less than advantageous in the years to come.
You can bet that if it was the other way around and Moore had in the writing some definition wherein he had the upper hand in this, he would have DC's balls in an iron grip from hell to breakfast. No 'spirit of the contract' stuff would be coming from him.
There's also the fun of the legal precedents too, wherein if DC did decide to revert their agreement just for Alan Moore, anyone else would step up and use that as a sticking point for their own legal grievances with the company. Whether or not anyone else has justifiable grievances or not. The point is the contract will stand to prevent uncontrollable legal chaos that DC views as a catalyst towards bringing the entire company to a standstill. Rather than just give creators their due, this would likely only serve to eat DC alive.
Too far from the original concept. They can't keep the original characters involved in the stories with that concept (though I think it has potential taking the Watchmen universe into a new direction).
DC and Marvel, or rather TimeWarner and Disney can just afford more and better lawyers who can, will, do, and have stretched out lawsuits by much poorer plaintiffs until they are just worn down.
That's kind of my point. Any attempt to expand the Watchmen universe will almost inevitably be hated by angry nerds. The only possible way for it to work is if you take it in a new direction.
As it is, Watchmen is a great commentary on the state of comics as a medium in the 1980s. Nobody lives in the 1980s anymore, though. People live in the 2010s now, and the state of the medium and the industry is the big publishers releasing sequels and nerds complaining about the sequels not being as good as the originals.
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
Tumblr Twitter
Makes me wonder how long it will take for someone to eventually kill him off or reveal him to be an android while the original Nick is doing some secret agent thing.
Offhand? 2-6 years, depending on how long Samuel L. Jackson wants to keep being Nick Fury on the big screen.
Diablo 3 - ArtfulDodger#1572
Minecraft - ArtfulDodger42
Which is in it's own way rather glorious.
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It's just the way it ends too that kind of has me wondering what the point was, if it was just one issue of any of the books, or the .1, it wouldn't be such a letdown.
At least when Steve Urkel crossed over into Full House that one episode it was character building for Stephanie dealing with having to wear glasses.
Never change, Tex.
Well-written, and beautifully drawn, but nothing was resolved. Ten dollars and sixty pages, and we're right back where we were at the start of the story.
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but I enjoyed each issue a lot and had fun the whole crossover, so I definitely got my money's worth.
his art is fucking gorgeous
If not, you should check it out.
It's pretty good.
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not because it wasn't good, I just didn't have the money
You're so cool sometimes, Muncharoo.