i would just like to say that everything J said about character building is wrong, and even grognards with spreadsheets and calculators aren't minmaxing out of the sheer joy of it, they are doing it because they are compulsive and are unable to create a character without attempting to maximize its effectiveness. alright, yes, some of them enjoy it, but they're mutants.
i would also suggest that the people who do enjoy minmaxing are the minority, and most players just want to be able to make a character with an intuitive system. i mean, when the rulebook is deliberately trying to fool you? fuck your game.
that said, adversarial GMing in a system that allows for player creativity while constraining the GM from just killing people by fiat is a wonderful thing though very hard to achieve.
finally, i don't believe there is any actual evidence that Planck time would be the smallest unit of time possible, right? It's just the smallest discrete unit of time that we have had reason to calculate or deal with. Just as the spatial equivalent is not necessarily the dot matrix of reality. In fact it is likely not.
CAUGHT UP.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
How about they make an MMO without a leveling system. They give you a hundred points at the start and then you're off to raid boss hideouts and loot dungeons within the first hour.
But then there would be no psychology and you'd have to make the gameplay actually fun!
I've been saying for a while that an MMO that I would play the hell out of is one with no levels and gear is fully custom. Like, you pick out what your armor looks like and that's what you start with, but you gain 'enchants' for it as a method of gear progression. You can change the look at any time for a price (Buy a new set of armor, basically). No clown suits unless that's what you want.
Also, scalable questing. You wanna raid that dungeon alone? Okay, but you probably won't get much out of it. Got 4 friends? Okay, it scales up. Got 40? Okay, it scales further. Rewards scale faster, though, so you gain more individual rewards by grouping, but you can grind dungeons by yourself all day if that's what you want.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
And Pony, some of the fight slowness last night was neophyte characters who were holding back against a group of idiots.
some of it, like the Toughness issue, comes up in all M&M games
the Toughness mechanic is REALLY WONKY and needs to be looked at with a hard eye
Toughness makes sense in a four color campaign where your gonna be punching people through buildings and it doesn't even really faze the character. For more gritty campaigns the solution I'd look at is making the toughness save Attack PL + 20 rather then +15. It means high toughness characters will take bruises more often but shrug off dazes and stuns. And low toughness characters will splatter if the dice don't go their way.
so, a solution I came up with to some of my problems with the Toughness mechanics and also "roll wonkyness" (SCIENTIFIC TERM DO NOT STEAL) is to do it like this:
You don't roll toughness or defenses. Those are flat +10 values.
When someone attacks you, they make ONE 1d20 roll. They add their attack bonus to that roll result to determine if they hit you (by comparing it against your Dodge/Parry), and then they add their damage bonus to see if they hurt you, and if so by how much (comparing it against your Toughness).
When it's an attack that has no attack roll normally (like a Fort-based Affliction), the attacker is STILL rolling against the respective defense of the person they're going against.
It makes it uniform, simple, and makes every attack resolved with one dice roll per thing, always
what do you think.
I'm slightly confused. So every character has a flat toughness of +10? Or is it toughness +10?
Toughness +10
take all your defenses (Parry, Dodge, Fort, Will, and Toughness) and add +10 to them, that's the DC people have to roll against. Obviously, on your character sheet, keep your bonuses like they are because those bonuses get screwed with, but in combat, when someone is rolling to hit your Parry defense, they're rolling against your Parry bonus + 10
I'm gonna need to chew on it, but my first reaction is that players are really, really gonna have to focus on keeping their defenses at the PL. The current system has some slack where you can be a couple of points shy of PL for say Fort and still have a decent chance of making a save. I'd need to do the math to be sure but I think if you're less then PL for defenses you're fucked. And what about area effect saves/dodge checks?
fuck it
i give up
fully none of what i'm explaining is getting through to you
i fucking give up
i have to seriously consider what i am doing and why i am bothering anymore
Pony, relax man. I can see how that would simplify combat, and it would likely make combat faster by making it a bit more dangerous. My concern about it is that it might force more focus on spending more points on defenses rather then fluffier things which isn't a side effect I think you wanted.
Ah keyboard turners. I remember we had to sit our ret paladin out for half the mimiron fight because she keyboard turned and couldn't get out of the explosions fast enough.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
How about they make an MMO without a leveling system. They give you a hundred points at the start and then you're off to raid boss hideouts and loot dungeons within the first hour.
But then there would be no psychology and you'd have to make the gameplay actually fun!
League of Legends could do without the leveling system. Level 30 - what is that? Why are they holding out? Give me my damn points and let me ace some noobs.
And I could totally see Disco's picture while I was typing my other post, then when I posted it it not only went above Disco's image but it was time-stamped for one minute before it.
I'm fucking causality right in the eye today. How'd you like getting eye-fucked, causality!
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
MMO theorycraft comes mostly from the very fine tuning dungeons in MMOs have.
If you have a suboptimal build, you may endanger the goal for the entire team.
Shit, during my hightier WoW days you'd actually play with mods that predicted your latency in order to autocancel the current cast and start the next, to do more damage.
Back in my EQ days, we had to cast all of our spells by hand and remember when spells were going to wear off. None of this addon nonsense. I hear you guys don't even lose experience for dying anymore either.
when you wanted to regen mana you'd actually have to read your spell book
god everything about EQ was awful
and every time they made it better
oh the neckbeards
the neckbeards would wail
and rend their garments
A while back at board game night there were a couple of people in the store going on about how great EQ was and MMOs these days are all just "dumbed down" and too accessable to the unwashed masses.
Then they segued into how much more they liked Pathfinder than 4th ed.
I can't imagine a way to more succinctly encapsulate a certain breed of gamer.
Posts
i would also suggest that the people who do enjoy minmaxing are the minority, and most players just want to be able to make a character with an intuitive system. i mean, when the rulebook is deliberately trying to fool you? fuck your game.
that said, adversarial GMing in a system that allows for player creativity while constraining the GM from just killing people by fiat is a wonderful thing though very hard to achieve.
finally, i don't believe there is any actual evidence that Planck time would be the smallest unit of time possible, right? It's just the smallest discrete unit of time that we have had reason to calculate or deal with. Just as the spatial equivalent is not necessarily the dot matrix of reality. In fact it is likely not.
CAUGHT UP.
I've been saying for a while that an MMO that I would play the hell out of is one with no levels and gear is fully custom. Like, you pick out what your armor looks like and that's what you start with, but you gain 'enchants' for it as a method of gear progression. You can change the look at any time for a price (Buy a new set of armor, basically). No clown suits unless that's what you want.
Also, scalable questing. You wanna raid that dungeon alone? Okay, but you probably won't get much out of it. Got 4 friends? Okay, it scales up. Got 40? Okay, it scales further. Rewards scale faster, though, so you gain more individual rewards by grouping, but you can grind dungeons by yourself all day if that's what you want.
Pony, relax man. I can see how that would simplify combat, and it would likely make combat faster by making it a bit more dangerous. My concern about it is that it might force more focus on spending more points on defenses rather then fluffier things which isn't a side effect I think you wanted.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=from:+the+shire+to:+mordor&hl=en&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.681389,56.513672&t=h&dirflg=w&z=16
Well, I love you Paws, but I'm not in love with you.
A sexless marriage sounds pretty good right now.
Rolling dice with simple richocet mechanics to calculate which way you bounce off an enemy
I'd play it
i am getting really sick of this
gist of it is adversarial rulebooks are terrible design, and planck time is not the smallest possible unit of time as i have understood it
League of Legends could do without the leveling system. Level 30 - what is that? Why are they holding out? Give me my damn points and let me ace some noobs.
i'm tired of being the guy in the video for Sting's "Lose My Faith"
swinging a sword at the ocean
i'm done
i'm done trying to hold this god damn game system bullshit down and make it work
i find the system vexing, nobody seems to understand my complaints
i propose changes, nobody gets my solutions
i'm preeeeetttttty sure the problem, by process of elimination, is me or its other people
in either case, i'm fuckin' done
i have tried, time and time again, with getting this shit to work and to get everyone on the same page and it's just not happening
not even sure why i bother, any enjoyment i get out of doing it gets fucking plastered by how much it infuriates me
there's something to be said about the definition of insanity being trying the same thing repeatedly, expecting different results
I'm fucking causality right in the eye today. How'd you like getting eye-fucked, causality!
I can't imagine a way to more succinctly encapsulate a certain breed of gamer.
And comic book.
Yes, co-operative little modular dungeon. Each turn you go but you also draw a bad guy card and do whatever it says with the baddies.
Like Doom meets those co op D & D ones kinda.
It hurt before I asked it!
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