[PA Comic] Monday, April 30, 2012 - The Back, Back Catalogue

Jasconius · April 2012

people are missing the point

this is smash brothers WITH 720p

and WITHOUT Fox McCloud's bullshit

Dedwrekka · April 2012

RainbowDespair wrote: »

Really, it wouldn't be hard to make a fun cast of characters from Sony's IPs.

Ape from Ape Escape series
Shibito and Kyoya Suda from Siren series
Robot (Mechanized Rabbit with the ability to jump really high) from Jumping Flash! series
Kat (anime girl with the ability to control gravity) from Gravity Daze
Fat Princess from Fat Princess
Giant Loco Roco from Loco Roco
Parappa and Lammy from Parappa the Rapper series
Nariko from Heavenly Sword
Wander from Shadow of the Colossus
Arc from Arc the Lad series
Cole from Infamous series
Horde of Lemmings from Lemmings series
Jak and Daxter from Jak and Daxter series
Jeanne from Jeanne d'Arc
Rose from Legend of Dragoon
Sackboy from LitleBigPlanet series
Sir Daniel Fortesque from MediEvil
Ari (ordinary boy whose shadow is possed by Evil King Stan) from Okage: Shadow King
White Knight from Popolocrois series
Ratchet and Clank from Ratchet & Clank series
Sly Cooper from Sly Cooper series
Kratos from God of War series
Sweet Tooth from Twisted Metal series
Jaster Rogue from Rogue Galaxy
Keats and Ellen from Folklore
Nathan Drake from Uncharted series

There, now you have around 30 characters for your fighting game and that was just from thinking about it for a few minutes. Admittedly, many of the characters aren't iconic in the way that say Mario & Link are, but this kind of roster would be great for a fighting game since you have a wide variety of fighting styles.

You realize how few gamers, outside of the hardcore gaming group, are going to recognize any of those people? I hardly recognize more than 1/3 of the names in there, and some of them I don't are from games I've played!

When I picked up the first Smash Bros. game, I had no idea who Ness, Captain Falcon or the Ice Climber were. But every single other person on their roster were iconic not of Nintendo but of video games themselves, some so much so that even people who don't play video games knew who they were.

Athenor wrote: »

I don't think you will see any of the truly iconic characters transfer over like everyone is expecting. For one thing, Microsoft could very easily blacklist a publisher from the 360 for such a move... Or even threaten to do so. Further, if the game ends up not being amazing, it could devalue the 3rd party IPs - another potential risk that negotiators would bring to the table. Finally.. a lot of the characters people have been calling for could easily be in their own developer-specific fighting games. So why give Sony money?

Again, this is all just things going through my mind, not necessarily what will happen.

They wont blacklist anyone because they have to make their money off of developers and new games coming out. The past 6 years have shown how disastrous it is for Sony and Microsoft to not be on good relations with each developer, and how bad it turns out for the other side when one developer decides to go entirely to one side or the other.

RainbowDespair · April 2012

Never said that my list was full of recognizable characters. Rather that it would make for a fun fighting game.

Like with Kat, you'd have a character who can control gravity. That could open up all sorts of possibilities for a fighting game.
Or with Ari, you'd have a character who is made of two parts - Ari and his wannabe evil shadow.
The Shibito could transform into different forms. So you'd have fishmonger wife Shibito, spider Shibito, flying sniper Shibito, etc.
Lemmings could be a variation on Pikmin from Smash Bros.
Sackboy could modify the stage by creating platforms or items.
Nariko could switch between her various weapon stances.
Jumping Flash could shoot carrots and hurt enemies by jumping on them.

And so on.

Good Looking Fat Guy · April 2012

Nintendo seems like the only company where console exclusivity is a reality. Sony and Microsoft's IPs have cross-pollinated so thoroughly and frequently that console-specific characters will become, if they haven't already, a thing of the past.

Also, at least to me, Sony doesn't seem like the type of company that tries to appeal to the casual gamer market. This game feels like a halfhearted, desperate attempt to do just that.

I understand that it isn't just casual gamers playing Smash, but it seems a lot do.

Carpy · April 2012

Is lemmings really owned by Sony now? It's been around for a really long time, like a couple years before the first playstation.

Good Looking Fat Guy · April 2012

Well, Lemmings was made by the company that eventually became RockStar North, the GTA guys, so it appears that Lemmings is part of the Sony family.

Dedwrekka · April 2012

RainbowDespair wrote: »

Never said that my list was full of recognizable characters. Rather that it would make for a fun fighting game.

Like with Kat, you'd have a character who can control gravity. That could open up all sorts of possibilities for a fighting game.
Or with Ari, you'd have a character who is made of two parts - Ari and his wannabe evil shadow.
The Shibito could transform into different forms. So you'd have fishmonger wife Shibito, spider Shibito, flying sniper Shibito, etc.
Lemmings could be a variation on Pikmin from Smash Bros.
Sackboy could modify the stage by creating platforms or items.
Nariko could switch between her various weapon stances.
Jumping Flash could shoot carrots and hurt enemies by jumping on them.

And so on.

The problem is that, with a game like that, it relies almost entirely on the notoriety of the characters to draw in people. This seems more like a very late-comer clone to Smash Bros. due to the style of fighting and method of choosing characters, rather than a real fighting game. More so the reason its getting panned so much isn't because the characters couldn't bring in new options to the fight, but rather that it seems like Sony is simply making a poor copy of Smash Bros. because of their choices in characters and the apparent insistence of only using their first part characters. If they'd reached out and gotten more characters from different companies, it would be a better representation of what they're trying to do than what they're actually doing.
That's actually kind of making the point for critics right there. By only using first party characters, it's coming off as Sony saying , as someone said before, "Hey, Sony/Playstation has brand recognition too!"

GAMIE64 · April 2012

Man, that second panel is avatar-material right there.

Gotr · April 2012

Man, you give me Rose and one other Legend of Dragoon character (besides Shana/Whosit's), and I'll buy the game for that alone.

Because free publicity for the game I personally feel is most deserving for a sequel it never got is always a good thing.

Carpy · April 2012

Good Looking Fat Guy wrote: »

Well, Lemmings was made by the company that eventually became RockStar North, the GTA guys, so it appears that Lemmings is part of the Sony family.

Fair enough, I generally don't follow the movement of developers like that.

RainbowDespair · April 2012

Dedwrekka wrote: »

RainbowDespair wrote: »

Never said that my list was full of recognizable characters. Rather that it would make for a fun fighting game.

Like with Kat, you'd have a character who can control gravity. That could open up all sorts of possibilities for a fighting game.
Or with Ari, you'd have a character who is made of two parts - Ari and his wannabe evil shadow.
The Shibito could transform into different forms. So you'd have fishmonger wife Shibito, spider Shibito, flying sniper Shibito, etc.
Lemmings could be a variation on Pikmin from Smash Bros.
Sackboy could modify the stage by creating platforms or items.
Nariko could switch between her various weapon stances.
Jumping Flash could shoot carrots and hurt enemies by jumping on them.

And so on.

The problem is that, with a game like that, it relies almost entirely on the notoriety of the characters to draw in people. This seems more like a very late-comer clone to Smash Bros. due to the style of fighting and method of choosing characters, rather than a real fighting game. More so the reason its getting panned so much isn't because the characters couldn't bring in new options to the fight, but rather that it seems like Sony is simply making a poor copy of Smash Bros. because of their choices in characters and the apparent insistence of only using their first part characters. If they'd reached out and gotten more characters from different companies, it would be a better representation of what they're trying to do than what they're actually doing.
That's actually kind of making the point for critics right there. By only using first party characters, it's coming off as Sony saying , as someone said before, "Hey, Sony/Playstation has brand recognition too!"

They've already said that there will be 3rd party characters in the game.

Anyway, it's ridiculous to say that Sony doesn't have enough well recognized characters for this. I mean...

Nathan Drake
Jak
Daxter
Ratchet
Clank
Sackboy
Kratos
Parappa
Sweet Tooth
Sly Cooper

Boom, there's your well known 1st party character core. Throw in a few well known 3rd party characters that are associated with Sony like Lara Croft & Crash Bandicoot and then fill out the roster with fun, lesser known characters.

Golden Yak · April 2012

Yeah, they might actually be okay:

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/04/26/see-playstation-all-stars-battle-royale-in-action/

Pretty funny to see the worlds colliding in the backgrounds.

Lucascraft · April 2012

SSB has quite a few characters who are nothing more than alternate "costumes" for the same powerset. Or with very slight variations. Such as Ness and Lucas from the Earthbound/Mother series. Same playstyle, minor tweak to powers. Mario and Luigi are also basically the same character, again with very minor stat tweaks. Ganondorf and Captain Falcon. Fox McCloud and Falco.

Sony could easily apply this same principle and use a bunch of side characters from their IPs. Replace Nathan Drake with Sully or Elaina. Replace Sly Cooper with the turtle guy. Replace the Helgast guy with an ISA guy. Replace Sweettooth with Axle.

Taramoor · April 2012

Golden Yak wrote: »

Yeah, they might actually be okay:

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/04/26/see-playstation-all-stars-battle-royale-in-action/

Pretty funny to see the worlds colliding in the backgrounds.

That is definitely one thing I think could be improved about the SSB games. Every stage contains only stuff from a given world.

I want to be falling through the core of Venom, with Ridley chasing Slippy while the Mute City theme plays.

Don't get me wrong, I love Metroid music on the Metroid stage with Kraid in the background, but a little something from the other worlds interfering would be a nice touch.

Big Red Tie · April 2012

those characters don't play similar at all, you're just bad at the game

The only ones really similar are cfalcon and ganondorf, since he's basically just a slower, somewhat worse version of him. but either way, both of those characters are way more recognizable than most of the playstation characters

2 Marcus 2 Ravens · April 2012

Maddoc wrote: »

So hey

Since we're discounting like every suggestion someone brings up for characters that could go into this game due to their lack of iconicity

Tell me how iconic Ice Climbers are

Or Mr. Game & Watch

Like I said, they weren't. But they were alongside many of the most iconic characters in gaming. They were given more personality in the game, and become much more famous characters themselves, if only in the Smash Bros franchise.

They don't all have to be Mario, but it sure helps to have Mario in the mix.

Lucascraft · April 2012

Big Red Tie wrote: »

those characters don't play similar at all, you're just bad at the game

The only ones really similar are cfalcon and ganondorf, since he's basically just a slower, somewhat worse version of him. but either way, both of those characters are way more recognizable than most of the playstation characters

Perhaps I'm bad at the game. Or perhaps I just have a fuzzy memory. Its been like 3 years since SSBB has even been in my system.

Big Red Tie · April 2012

the other three you posted are very, very different from each other

like, fox doesn't have the dair spike Falco has, no grab chain, his gun game is very different, Falco doesn't have the sex leg nair, completely different ground game because of their up tilts/up smash

ness has wayyyy different everything from lucas. like every normal and special.

Clayton Bigsby · April 2012

That's like saying Ryu, Ken and Akuma are very, very different from each other

Big Red Tie · May 2012

what? ryu and ken are the same with particle effects, akuma has at least a little variation (though his variations make him more similar to other characters)

Falco does not play the same gameplan as fox, unlike those three sf characters. his moveset just doesn't allow it.

ness and Lucas move/play completely differently.
maybe it's easier to distinguish for players like you if I just talk about specials? ness has an exploding B, Lucas has a freezing one. ness has a multi hit, setup pk fire that shoots down diagonal in the air, Lucas has a single hit higher damage and knock back, horizontal aerial pk fire

Big Red Tie · May 2012

just a basic, surface level comparison. when those three tatsu, they tatsu. when they shoryuken, they shoryuken. when they fireball, they fireball.

IMassVikings · May 2012

Playstation All-Stars is kind of weird =\ I'll admit that the characters don't do much for me, and I'm not entirely sure about the kill mechanics, but I'd rather try it first (or watch it in practice extensively!) before I write it off. One interesting thing is that doing combos is purely beneficial to you only, because only you get to charge your super meter, which you can use to kill any or all other players at any time. This is different from Smash; when you pile up damage on one player, that one player is easier to kill for everyone, not just for you, which is likely to make that player a very easy choice to pursue. This is probably "fairer" for FFAs in that it's less likely to result in one really big loser, but players will likely get mad at any perceived feeding.

Clayton Bigsby wrote: »

That's like saying Ryu, Ken and Akuma are very, very different from each other

They are

Well I guess they share movement and some graphics (should make sense because they're using the same "fighting style"), but the kinds of openings they can exploit (or want to exploit) are very different, and I think that matters a whole lot.

Big Red Tie wrote: »

what? ryu and ken are the same with particle effects, akuma has at least a little variation (though his variations make him more similar to other characters)

Falco does not play the same gameplan as fox, unlike those three sf characters. his moveset just doesn't allow it.

ness and Lucas move/play completely differently.
maybe it's easier to distinguish for players like you if I just talk about specials? ness has an exploding B, Lucas has a freezing one. ness has a multi hit, setup pk fire that shoots down diagonal in the air, Lucas has a single hit higher damage and knock back, horizontal aerial pk fire

Right. Mechanically, the characters are much more different from each other in Brawl than they are in Melee. It's not just a difference in stats, the functionality is unique as well.

You can't play a good camping game with Fox like you would with Falco, because Falco's lasers stun, Fox's does not.

Lucas' up smash is freaking strong and can be used to punish opponents that don't space well, whereas Ness' up smash is rather quick and can deflect opponents quickly, but doesn't threaten as much.

Luigi has a better air game than Mario does, but Mario deals with camping better than Luigi can.

Ganon and Cpt Falcon are probably the hardest to argue, but even then I think they have very different tactics/strategies. Ganon's up tilt is lol so he has to rely on up smash for anti air, while Cpt Falcon's up tilt comes out quick and can cover a good arc in front as well. Ganon's flame choke is a grab that also puts the opponent on the ground, and you benefit if you have a good guessing game, whereas Cpt Falcon's raptor boost doesn't connect when blocked and sends opponents up. Cpt Falcon's down air is great for spiking but is pretty bad when it goes stale, but Ganon's down air is an absolute monster and can often be used to KO opponents off the floor (by bouncing them from the floor into the ceiling (hey look flame choke), it's that damn scary).

But... I'd say that Ryu/Ken/Akuma are mechanically different enough as well, even if the way their moves function aren't absolutely unique. At the very least in SF4, their available ultra moves changes how they want to approach each match (and the kind of risks/options that opponents have against them).

teknoarcanist · May 2012

From the blog: "I don't know if I necessarily want to see Yorda fighting Crash Bandicoot..."

Are you kidding me? Yorda and Ico should be like the Ice Climbers -style tag-team.

Big Red Tie · May 2012

while there are differences between ryu, ken, and akuma, many of them are harder to point out (frame data and hitboxes) than, "ness and lucas have all different moves and properties"

anyway, there are more shoto/shotolikes than just them, which is... yeah

Xeno · May 2012

RainbowDespair wrote: »

Really, it wouldn't be hard to make a fun cast of characters from Sony's IPs.

Ape from Ape Escape series
Shibito and Kyoya Suda from Siren series
Robot (Mechanized Rabbit with the ability to jump really high) from Jumping Flash! series
Kat (anime girl with the ability to control gravity) from Gravity Daze
Fat Princess from Fat Princess
Giant Loco Roco from Loco Roco
Parappa and Lammy from Parappa the Rapper series
Nariko from Heavenly Sword
Wander from Shadow of the Colossus
Arc from Arc the Lad series
Cole from Infamous series
Horde of Lemmings from Lemmings series
Jak and Daxter from Jak and Daxter series
Jeanne from Jeanne d'Arc
Rose from Legend of Dragoon
Sackboy from LitleBigPlanet series
Sir Daniel Fortesque from MediEvil
Ari (ordinary boy whose shadow is possed by Evil King Stan) from Okage: Shadow King
White Knight from Popolocrois series
Ratchet and Clank from Ratchet & Clank series
Sly Cooper from Sly Cooper series
Kratos from God of War series
Sweet Tooth from Twisted Metal series
Jaster Rogue from Rogue Galaxy
Keats and Ellen from Folklore
Nathan Drake from Uncharted series

There, now you have around 30 characters for your fighting game and that was just from thinking about it for a few minutes. Admittedly, many of the characters aren't iconic in the way that say Mario & Link are, but this kind of roster would be great for a fighting game since you have a wide variety of fighting styles.

You're doing it all wrong!

Its supposed to be

Monkey thing? from Ape Escape series
That fat girl or something from Fat Princess
PS1 game lol from Parappa the Rapper series
Nariko from Heavenly Sword
The guy that didn't talk from Shadow of the Colossus
Lightning guy from Infamous series
Jak and the rat guy thing from Jak and Daxter series
Rose from Legend of Dragoon (lol, this game suxxxxx)
Sack Man from LitleBigPlanet series
The robot dude from Ratchet & Clank series
Cooper Sly from Sly Cooper series
Kratos from God of War series (only good game on this list aimiraite?)
One of the cars from Twisted Metal series
The Indiana Jones rip-off from Uncharted series

See, this is how you properly make a list. Pretend you don't know any of the names, and exclude games.

Henroid · May 2012

Jasconius wrote: »

People are coming down on this a little harder than I expected.

As I said, it's definitely exasperated by Sony having done things Nintendo did already / recently, in a very explicit manner. If this was Sony's first move to do something Nintendo did, it wouldn't be as exaggerated.

Opty · May 2012

Also because they're leading the game's reveal with a relative unknown (Fat Princess, really?) and that makes them come off as scraping the barrel for IP to put into the game. Smash Bros on the other hand had their "obscure" characters all hidden and didn't showcase them in any advertising before the game came out (as far as I know).

Big Red Tie · May 2012

playing sly cooper would be really fun

LtPowers · May 2012

Excuse me, Mr. Tycho, but the Go-Bots are not "Johnny Come-Lately type shit". Go-Bots actually came to North America first, believe it or not. (Granted, the Transformers' predecessors pre-dated Machine Robo in Japan...)

Powers &8^]

King Riptor · May 2012

Opty wrote: »

Also because they're leading the game's reveal with a relative unknown (Fat Princess, really?) and that makes them come off as scraping the barrel for IP to put into the game. Smash Bros on the other hand had their "obscure" characters all hidden and didn't showcase them in any advertising before the game came out (as far as I know).

I think it's more that Nintendo has never used the smash series as just free advertisement. Sakurai just puts in characters he feels are interesting. Nobody expected characters like Ice climbers or Game and watch.

Im curious if Sony can pull that off especially if the developer blog has quotes like " I don't want to see crash fighting yorda" which is stupid. The whole point of these games is the absurdity. Kratos should fight crash. Ico should fight Bently A colossus should take on a patapon.

If they can't capture that the game is gonna feel hollow and even more like a rip off.

WUA · May 2012

Great list. Kyoya Suda versus Jaster Rogue is a real Mario versus Sonic level matchup there guys.

Seriously I barely know who any of those characters are.

RainbowDespair · May 2012

King Riptor wrote: »

Im curious if Sony can pull that off especially if the developer blog has quotes like " I don't want to see crash fighting yorda" which is stupid.

That quote's from Jerry, not the developer blog.

Chen · May 2012

Maddoc wrote: »

So hey

Since we're discounting like every suggestion someone brings up for characters that could go into this game due to their lack of iconicity

Tell me how iconic Ice Climbers are

Or Mr. Game & Watch

Most of my friends don't know who Samus is. Or Fox. Or Ganondorf. Everyone knows Pikachu. And Mario. And Donkey Kong. That's three more than anything Sony can muster.

Henroid · May 2012

Chen wrote: »

Maddoc wrote: »

So hey

Since we're discounting like every suggestion someone brings up for characters that could go into this game due to their lack of iconicity

Tell me how iconic Ice Climbers are

Or Mr. Game & Watch

Most of my friends don't know who Samus is. Or Fox. Or Ganondorf. Everyone knows Pikachu. And Mario. And Donkey Kong. That's three more than anything Sony can muster.

... How old are these people?

I'm not asking to be like, a jerk. I'm serious. It's just now occurring to me that there's probably a very small gap in age groups where this is going to be the case.

Ori Klein · May 2012

Seriously, they could make a PA brawl and come out with a larger, more recognized/fan'd, list of characters.

Sony has become so sad in its dying throbs.

Chen · May 2012

Most people aren't serious gamers, you know. When they do game, they exclusively play Call of Duty, FIFA and GTA. And the other group plays Mario Kart, The Sims and Farmville. You can namedrop Metroid and they'd have no idea what it is.

These people aren't going to be impressed by Sony's cast. I'd bet you a good amount won't know who Kratos is, or Crash, or Jak and Daxter, whereas Mario, Donkey Kong and Pikachu are household names.

Galactic · May 2012

Be sure to add Bi-O, the pop-locking zombie with an axe in his head from Bust a Groove 2.

Henroid · May 2012

Chen wrote: »

Most people aren't serious gamers, you know. When they do game, they exclusively play Call of Duty, FIFA and GTA. And the other group plays Mario Kart, The Sims and Farmville. You can namedrop Metroid and they'd have no idea what it is.

These people aren't going to be impressed by Sony's cast. I'd bet you a good amount won't know who Kratos is, or Crash, or Jak and Daxter, whereas Mario, Donkey Kong and Pikachu are household names.

So basically, Jak and Daxter and Crash Bandicoot need children's TV shows.

King Riptor · May 2012

Chen wrote: »

Maddoc wrote: »

So hey

Since we're discounting like every suggestion someone brings up for characters that could go into this game due to their lack of iconicity

Tell me how iconic Ice Climbers are

Or Mr. Game & Watch

Most of my friends don't know who Samus is. Or Fox. Or Ganondorf. Everyone knows Pikachu. And Mario. And Donkey Kong. That's three more than anything Sony can muster.

The climbers and game and watch weren't put in as icons. They were put in because Sakurai is a massive Nintendo nerd.

If you show brawls roster to anyone familiar on some level with video games they'll recognize someone without going to Wikipedia to search for ips.

MegaMan001 · May 2012

Any chance of Cloud being in this vis a vi his appearance in Ehrgiez?

Penny Arcade

[PA Comic] Monday, April 30, 2012 - The Back, Back Catalogue

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