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[LGBT]: Bigots can go eat a bag of [Chick-Fil-A]

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  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular

    Literally no one really gives a shit about anyone elses religion.
    I mean sure they give a shit on a global christians vs muslims level, but I've never had anyone at work or school or the like ask me about my religion or even give the slightest amount of interest that they cared. If anyone ever did, all it takes is a simple "I don't really like to get into religious discussions at work" and the topic is dead for 99% of people. It's not like I have to try to get my atheism covered under my health plan, or take my atheism to the christmas party.

    This really depends on where you're living.

  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    Literally no one really gives a shit about anyone elses religion.
    Did you seriously think this statement would go unchallenged?

    It's unfortunate that this (entirely inaccurate) statement overshadows the rest of the post.

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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    Literally no one really gives a shit about anyone elses religion.
    Did you seriously think this statement would go unchallenged?

    Let me rephrase.

    Very few people in the United States give enough of a shit about others religion that they forcefully go out of their way to question random strangers/coworkers/acquantances about it. By and large people just either assume you are Christian (or other ethnically appropriate religion), or don't care. The amount of times I've had a stranger or acquaintance ask about my religious beliefs is zero, and I live in one of the most religious areas in the country. I've had it come up in dating, but that's it. YMMV.

  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Literally no one really gives a shit about anyone elses religion.
    Did you seriously think this statement would go unchallenged?

    Let me rephrase.

    Very few people in the United States give enough of a shit about others religion that they forcefully go out of their way to question random strangers/coworkers/acquantances about it. By and large people just either assume you are Christian (or other ethnically appropriate religion), or don't care. The amount of times I've had a stranger or acquaintance ask about my religious beliefs is zero, and I live in one of the most religious areas in the country. I've had it come up in dating, but that's it. YMMV.

    The first one is you attributing your experience to the entire country.

    The second one is your experience, which is limited to exactly you.

    The third one is the disconnect between the two.

  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    The Boy Scouts of America is a thing.

    Also; housing discrimination is a pretty big one that has in fact affected me.

    Also also; I like how you saying 'you don't have to take your atheism to christmas' somehow doesn't disprove the point you are making in your mind.

    Burtletoy on
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Literally no one really gives a shit about anyone elses religion.
    Did you seriously think this statement would go unchallenged?

    Let me rephrase.

    Very few people in the United States give enough of a shit about others religion that they forcefully go out of their way to question random strangers/coworkers/acquantances about it. By and large people just either assume you are Christian (or other ethnically appropriate religion), or don't care. The amount of times I've had a stranger or acquaintance ask about my religious beliefs is zero, and I live in one of the most religious areas in the country. I've had it come up in dating, but that's it. YMMV.

    The first one is you attributing your experience to the entire country.

    The second one is your experience, which is limited to exactly you.

    The third one is the disconnect between the two.

    Hence why I said "Your mileage may vary", and not "Such is the undeniable and immutable truth delivered from the mouth of God through me, his infallible and indisputable temporal prophet, as it ever was, is and shall be".

  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    Indeed, several polls have shown that about 50 percent of Americans would not vote for a well-qualified atheist for president.[54][55] A 2006 study found that 40% of respondents characterized atheists as a group that did "not at all agree with my vision of American society", and that 48% would not want their child to marry an atheist. In both studies, percentages of disapproval of atheists were above those for Muslims, African-Americans and homosexuals.[56] Many of the respondents associated atheism with immorality, including criminal behaviour, extreme materialism, and elitism.[57] Atheists and atheist organizations have alleged discrimination against atheists in the military,[58][59][60][61][62][63] and recently, with the development of the Army's Comprehensive Soldier Fitness program, atheists have alleged institutionalized discrimination.[64][65] In several child custody court rulings, the parents of atheists have been discriminated against, either directly or indirectly. As child custody laws in the United States, are often based on the "best interests of the child" principle, they leave family court judges ample room to consider a parent’s ideology when settling a custody case. Atheism, lack of religious observation and regular church attendance, and the inability to prove one's willingness and capacity to attend to religion with his children, have been used to deny custody to non-religious parents.[66]

  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Literally no one really gives a shit about anyone elses religion.
    Did you seriously think this statement would go unchallenged?

    Let me rephrase.

    Very few people in the United States give enough of a shit about others religion that they forcefully go out of their way to question random strangers/coworkers/acquantances about it. By and large people just either assume you are Christian (or other ethnically appropriate religion), or don't care. The amount of times I've had a stranger or acquaintance ask about my religious beliefs is zero, and I live in one of the most religious areas in the country. I've had it come up in dating, but that's it. YMMV.

    The first one is you attributing your experience to the entire country.

    The second one is your experience, which is limited to exactly you.

    The third one is the disconnect between the two.

    Hence why I said "Your mileage may vary", and not "Such is the undeniable and immutable truth delivered from the mouth of God through me, his infallible and indisputable temporal prophet, as it ever was, is and shall be".

    "Very few people in the United States give enough of a shit about others religion" sounds like a pretty definitive statement to me.

  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    Is there really a point to the Oppression Olympics?

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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    That's great. It really is.

    Now lets do a little experiment. Everyone in this thread who is athiest, relate a personal story about how being atheist has personally and negatively impacted your life.

    Now everyone who is gay relate a personal story about how being gay has personally and negatively impacted your life.

  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    what is the point you are trying to make here.

  • Dropping LoadsDropping Loads Registered User regular
    You're conflating exposure to discrimination with discrimination. There are plenty of groups (women, gays, some ethnic and religious minorities, the obese, gingers, the list goes on) that are easily identifiable on sight. These groups are more likely to be targets of opportunity. They are also more likely to be picked on as kids, not because they are more hated, but because a kid doesn't know the difference between a Zoroastrian and a chicken sandwich, but they can identify a boy in a dress. The problem you are not allowing yourself to see is groups of small minded adults systematically making it more difficult for "minority X" to participate in an equal society. That is a problem that all the above groups also face, but so do many other groups (including atheists, jews, catholics, mormons, etc, depending on geography). Arguing whether or not one group has it better because they only fall into one of those categories is not relevant. What is relevant is if the differences between those groups mean that they need to use different strategies to try and fight discrimination.

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  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    Blackjack wrote: »
    Is there really a point to the Oppression Olympics?

    Not really, and it's tedious when atheists start them up.

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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    http://gawker.com/5906480/idiot-films-himself-shooting-sign-against-north-carolinas-gay-marriage-ban

    Short version: Hillbilly wants Amendment One to pass, sees his neighbor has a sign against the Amendment, so hillbilly shoots the sign, on video.

    There's no plan, there's no race to be run
    The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
  • InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    From his facebook page...
    People who inspire him:
    Jesus
    Ronald Reagan
    Stonewall Jackson
    Robert E. Lee


    Why is none of that shocking?

  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    Nice going, Mr. Wiles. Now the Internets are all talking about you shooting your load on video.

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  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    You should read what languages he knows.

  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    I got a content taken down link.

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    Invisible wrote: »
    From his facebook page...
    People who inspire him:
    Jesus
    Ronald Reagan
    Stonewall Jackson
    Robert E. Lee


    Why is none of that shocking?
    Thank you for reminding me to add William Tecumseh Sherman to my "People who inspire me."

  • BaronSamediBaronSamedi Same dude as yesterday. The AlamoRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    rockrnger wrote: »
    How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.

    Same way as you do it with LGBT people. Mess with the outspoken ones and the others keep quiet.

    Unless that uppity outspoken one is Dan Savage...

    BaronSamedi on
    "Have you ever noticed that their stuff is shit, and your shit is stuff?"--George Carlin
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    I appreciate Savage's willingness to call out people on hypocritically hiding behind the bullshit in the Bible, as he calls it. However, he has to have been aware that couching it in terms they can bitch about will mean they can ignore his argument and just whine about him using naughty words and how he's "attacking Christianity."

    Not giving the religious right a hook to feel persecuted about is like, Lesson 1 of Calling Bigots Out On Their Bullshit.

  • BaronSamediBaronSamedi Same dude as yesterday. The AlamoRegistered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    they can ignore his argument and just whine about him using naughty words and how he's "attacking Christianity."

    ...Which is nearly word for word what the person who posted this on their facebook wall said. Like seriously, almost word for word.

    They also made the argument that he was a bully because he was standing up for himself (or in reality, others).

    I enjoy Dan Savage, so I'm aware of my bias, but I also made the argument that that wasn't his audience. This could have turned into just a one off non-newsworthy event and now its a source of blog traffic and (further) awareness for the I.G.B Project. I do wish there was a better way to do it than opening the door to the valid criticisms you pointed out though, Kal.

    "Have you ever noticed that their stuff is shit, and your shit is stuff?"--George Carlin
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    KalTorak wrote: »
    I appreciate Savage's willingness to call out people on hypocritically hiding behind the bullshit in the Bible, as he calls it. However, he has to have been aware that couching it in terms they can bitch about will mean they can ignore his argument and just whine about him using naughty words and how he's "attacking Christianity."

    Not giving the religious right a hook to feel persecuted about is like, Lesson 1 of Calling Bigots Out On Their Bullshit.

    They're going to feel persecuted no matter what we do, so we might as well tell the truth to the people who are not them.

    Leviticus bans football, among other things.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    rockrnger wrote: »
    How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.

    Same way as you do it with LGBT people. Mess with the outspoken ones and the others keep quiet.

    Unless that uppity outspoken one is Dan Savage...

    News flash: Dan Savage is an egotistical shit head; millions not even shocked

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.

    Same way as you do it with LGBT people. Mess with the outspoken ones and the others keep quiet.

    Unless that uppity outspoken one is Dan Savage...

    News flash: Dan Savage is an egotistical shit head; millions not even shocked

    Savage is the farthest thing from a shit head when it comes to LGBT rights.

  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.

    Same way as you do it with LGBT people. Mess with the outspoken ones and the others keep quiet.

    Unless that uppity outspoken one is Dan Savage...

    News flash: Dan Savage is an egotistical shit head; millions not even shocked

    Savage is the farthest thing from a shit head when it comes to LGBT rights.

    I had a whole giant post sort of unspooling in my head about this topic, but I think I'll condense it down to this. Fuck those guys.

    I like Savage, and let them get pissy if they want. He's right.

    There's no plan, there's no race to be run
    The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.

    Same way as you do it with LGBT people. Mess with the outspoken ones and the others keep quiet.

    Unless that uppity outspoken one is Dan Savage...

    News flash: Dan Savage is an egotistical shit head; millions not even shocked

    Savage is the farthest thing from a shit head when it comes to LGBT rights.

    I had a whole giant post sort of unspooling in my head about this topic, but I think I'll condense it down to this. Fuck those guys.

    I like Savage, and let them get pissy if they want. He's right.

    This was linked on another forum I peruse from time to time, and their off-topic area is typically dominated by uptight conservative types, and fairly often by those prone to feeling religiously persecuted. After reading the Fox link that was included (ugh) and watching the 3 minute video found at the bottom of said link, I was pleased with how those who took offense got up and left quietly (leaving en masse is going to be disruptive, but it's not like they were screaming obscenities while they did so), and Savage's remarks weren't unfounded, at least from what I saw. Note, the link I read claimed he made personal attacks, but aside from calling those who left "pansy asses" (which got a laugh from the remaining audience), it's not like he began screaming and speaking in tongues.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    There's no plan, there's no race to be run
    The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
  • CogliostroCogliostro Marginal Opinions Spring, TXRegistered User regular
    I once even had a coworker tell me she was refusing to be assigned to a patient because he was a professed atheist.


    Completely bullshit. The first thing I would do if I heard that would be to go to whatever regulatory board that handles her license/certifications and file a complaint against her for discrimination based on religious beliefs.

    Even if it didn't end with her being removed, it would be a black stain on her record.

  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Cogliostro wrote: »
    I once even had a coworker tell me she was refusing to be assigned to a patient because he was a professed atheist.


    Completely bullshit. The first thing I would do if I heard that would be to go to whatever regulatory board that handles her license/certifications and file a complaint against her for discrimination based on religious beliefs.

    Even if it didn't end with her being removed, it would be a black stain on her record.

    Healthcare is weird like that, you can refuse to do all sorts of things as a nurse and use religious belief as an excuse and you can't get in trouble or it's considered discrimination on the part of the employer.

    If you think a 78 year old man in an arranged marriage to an 18 year old girl who doesn't speak english and can't communicate her wishes (but is obviously terrified and uncomfortable) being put through fertilization procedures just so the 78 year old can have a baby boy is fucked up and wrong, you can be suspended or fired if you refuse to be part of the procedure because it's just personal preference, not religious belief.

    If however you don't want to do a vasectomy, you can throw up your arms and claim <insert religious prophet> says it's wrong and congrats, you just got out of doing work!

    No, it's not an exaggeration and in fact is one of the tamer real life examples of things I've seen that make no fucking sense working in a hospital.

    dispatch.o on
  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.

    Same way as you do it with LGBT people. Mess with the outspoken ones and the others keep quiet.

    Unless that uppity outspoken one is Dan Savage...

    News flash: Dan Savage is an egotistical shit head; millions not even shocked

    Savage is the farthest thing from a shit head when it comes to LGBT rights.

    LG rights, you mean. He's kind of a shithead about bisexuals and a complete shithead about transgender people, and he's always happy to throw in the "I'm a gay man so if I say stupid shit about females it doesn't count!" when he thinks he's being funny.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor changed Registered User regular
    You might be able to get out of a procedure that violates your beliefs, but doesn't the Hippocratic oath mean you can't refuse a patient based on theirs?

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.
    Same way as you do it with LGBT people. Mess with the outspoken ones and the others keep quiet.
    Unless that uppity outspoken one is Dan Savage...
    News flash: Dan Savage is an egotistical shit head; millions not even shocked
    We need more gay rights advocates like him, unafraid to call Christians on their bullshit. And it is complete fucking bullshit.

    Fuck them. They're going to claim persecution no matter what, so let's get some fucking colosseums going, and order some more lions, show them what real persecution looks like.

  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    No, it's not an exaggeration and in fact is one of the tamer real life examples of things I've seen that make no fucking sense working in a hospital.

    This is why I have to remind myself "If you punch that doctor/nurse whining about frivolous malpractice suits, you will probably get arrested and shit".

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  • JHunzJHunz Registered User regular
    You might be able to get out of a procedure that violates your beliefs, but doesn't the Hippocratic oath mean you can't refuse a patient based on theirs?
    That would be great if healthcare providers actually had to take the Hippocratic Oath, or if were binding if they did. Too bad about that.

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  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    mythago wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.

    Same way as you do it with LGBT people. Mess with the outspoken ones and the others keep quiet.

    Unless that uppity outspoken one is Dan Savage...

    News flash: Dan Savage is an egotistical shit head; millions not even shocked

    Savage is the farthest thing from a shit head when it comes to LGBT rights.

    LG rights, you mean. He's kind of a shithead about bisexuals and a complete shithead about transgender people, and he's always happy to throw in the "I'm a gay man so if I say stupid shit about females it doesn't count!" when he thinks he's being funny.
    G rights you mean.

    Upper middle class, white, g rights.

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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    mythago wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    How do you practically do it though? Aside from requiring prayer at school or something like that which will both discrimate against other religions and probably ar best only make most atheists mildly uncomfortable, how do you meaningfully discriminate? You could legislate against atheist literature but even that starts to get touchy.

    Same way as you do it with LGBT people. Mess with the outspoken ones and the others keep quiet.

    Unless that uppity outspoken one is Dan Savage...

    News flash: Dan Savage is an egotistical shit head; millions not even shocked

    Savage is the farthest thing from a shit head when it comes to LGBT rights.

    LG rights, you mean. He's kind of a shithead about bisexuals and a complete shithead about transgender people, and he's always happy to throw in the "I'm a gay man so if I say stupid shit about females it doesn't count!" when he thinks he's being funny.

    I need elaboration on this.

    There's no plan, there's no race to be run
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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    So, we've established that Dan's not doing shit all for anyone but a very narrow band of people (other than the IGB Project, but it's probably all aimed at young white gays, so we can skip that)?

    Maybe it's my straight white male bias blinding me to things, but between calling out various politicians and religions on their bullshit, he seems to be doing more for non-straight* sexual rights than a lot of people.

    I'm reminded of that whole "the enemy of The Good should not be The Perfect". I've been a reader of his for over a decade and a half, and yes, things he has said regarding lesbians, bisexuals and trans people haven't always been stellar, but I've also seen him admit these flaws, improve on them, and make an effort to reference outside help when he feels he needs to.

    It's not like he starts speeches with "everyone who isn't a gay white male get the fuck out of here".

    Edit: *Hell, he even shouts out when asshats are trying to do things like enact legislation that would impact the sex lives of straights.

    Edit2: And for the record, I'm not saying he does no wrong. I just don't think what he has done for people other than "Upper middle class, white gays" should be discarded out of hand.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    "Elaboration" what? Dude proudly admits he's an asshole. He's written that he despises fat partners and would divorce Terry if Terry ever got fat, although he himself fully expect to get fat someday. He thinks bisexuals should pretty much leave lesbians and gays alone, and that biphobia is understandable because (in his opinion) too many people claim they're bisexual when they're just curious or afraid to say they're gay. He thinks bathhouses should be shut down and proudly admits he's a complete hypocrite on this as he met his husband in one. He posts a lot of gender-essentialist bullshit and doesn't have a fucking clue as to how sexism affects relationship dynamics. TL;DR, he's a wealthy white guy with a big platform and all the "but the world DOES revolve around my shit!" that too often goes with that.

    Now, it's ALSO true that he has been an outspoken advocate for queer rights, has raised tons of consciousness and money for important causes (not just marriage), and calls out bigots on their bullshit. He's done many good things, including pushing the It Gets Better project. His column (and I've been reading since his "Hey Faggot!" days) strongly promotes acceptance and understanding of healthy, consensual sexuality, and he goes places just about nobody else would go - for example, when a reader wrote in to say that he was sexually attracted to children, didn't want to abuse children and didn't know the first place to go for help, Savage brought in a therapist who commended the guy for being proactive and pointed him to resources that could help him.

    This Slate article is a little doofy at the end because, you know, Slate, but it's correct that we don't do our spokespeople any favors by bursting into tears and shouting "How DARE you criticize him when he does so many WONDERFUL things!" Savage can't get better if we don't call him on his bullshit.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2011/11/04/did_dan_savage_deserve_to_be_glitter_bombed_.html

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