i mean i am writing software to embezzle millions of dollars by skimming fractions of pennies from per diem transactions- which isn't really stealing, if you think about it- but that has nothing to do with ex-dishing
0
Options
OnTheLastCastlelet's keep it haimish for the peripateticRegistered Userregular
Like, I definitely agree that academic institutions have fucked up their business model, but I see two problems with this in most of the discourse about it
One- the blame always gets thrown on the feet of administrators, and while they do make disproportionately more than educators and other employees, it seems to be accepted that most of the tuition inflation is a result of decreasing amounts of federal and public funding for universities. The university I just left saw a 40% tuition increase after a 30% decrease in state allocations to their budget.
Universities are hurting, bad, and while they may be making poor financial decisions, the solution to that isn't to cut them off of public funds, because that just makes the problem worse in the realm of tuition inflation.
What they should've done is cut their expenses by 30%, not increased tuition. I'm no economist, but I'd bet the majority of that increase will be covered in grants and loans. To me that says they saw a huge drop in revenue and instead of slashing overhead they knew they had a captive market that will buy whatever they sell so they just cranked up the price and offloaded their pain to customers who can't demand a refund if they get nothing of tangible value for their purchase.
very business-like, though, you gotta admit
I mean, if you had a captive market as a business, why wouldn't you do exactly this
Yeah, you're pretty correct there. It's unsustainable though... eventually you have somebody try to undercut your business. In this sector it's for-profit schools.
I wasn't the least bit surprised to see government begin to go after for-profit institutions for exactly the same problems traditional institutions have, with those very same institutions cheering from the sidelines.
What for-profit universities do is fleece people who have no idea how education works or should cost, for all their money. Pretty happy to see them get sued into oblivion in the next few years.
That describes the traditional university system just as well. I'd like to see all post-secondary education held to the same standards, and I'd be pretty happy to see a couple of universities sued into oblivion as well.
What portions or departments are you talking about? I'm curious.
It varies from institution to institution but heck, you even see blatant misrepresentation in graduate-level law programs. Practically every university will charge you more for your freshman core requirements than an associated community college, and they'll accept the CC's credits. When you agree that a far cheaper set of coursework is 100% equivalent to your more expensive offering, yet you still go to great lengths to convince students you're completely justified charging more and they believe you, that is some A-level fleecing.
If the only thing they were doing is selling you credits this might be the case
It isn't
Community colleges, are, by and large, terrible
They do try, and there are exceptions (almost always in the form of specific professors or departments) but there is a gulf between even the worst state schools and CCs in quality of education, even and perhaps especially at the survey level
What does it matter, if you're able to tackle the later coursework? A terrible Comp 1 class is equal to a fantastic, amazing Comp 1 class both in terms of the degree requirements to buy your credentials, and to your ability to succeed in meeting the rest of the requirements.
There's no reason Comp 1 from a university should cost you $1000 but only cost $125 at the community college.
False. Location is going to play a big role in all of this. Big Universities are either in cities, or at the center of college towns. Community colleges can exist anywhere, but usually don't require the same amount of capital to run. At the very base level, there's real estate. Then account for cost of living. Then account for having to pay people enough to attract talent.
Arguing that schools should be run more like a business is only going to escalate that problem, as market prices vary from place to place on pretty much anything.
Let's be more concrete then. University of Texas at Austin's freshman year costs ~$9000 in state not counting books and housing. The university owns the land through a grant enshrined in the Texas Constitution. A freshman taking a standard load is paying ~$1800 per course, about $600/credit hour. Let's be super generous and put 50% of that toward non-salary expenses of running the college... so we're talking ~$900 for Freshman Composition 101.
Austin Community College is 6 blocks away from the UT Campus and offers Composition 101 for $125. Do you really think UT's offering is 700% better?
I don't think it works like this.
Which part is wrong?
That you can compare like courses from two different universities, look at the costs and expenses of a university, and then make a judgement about the course.
Or, the whole thing.
I think you missed my larger point - the best Freshman comp 101 course in the history of everything is still nothing more than a basic set of coursework you need to check off on your list of requirements, and the education you got in the class won't have any bearing on whether or not you succeed in getting your degree. There isn't any way that course can have that much more value because it was taught at the university, and the university agrees! I know they do, because they allow students to substitute the CC credits.
So why is it 700% more expensive to get those credits at university?
Because the costs of running a university are much higher than a community college?
Look at my back-of-the-envelope guesses... I already tossed in 50% of the actual cost to cover non-salary expenses, and it's still ~700% more expensive for the same credit requirement.
Yeah, I don't think anywhere near 50% of a university's money goes toward salary expenses.
But tuition isn't the only revenue stream a university has. Even if my guesswork is wildly, wildly off, it's still going to be more expensive to earn the same credit hours at UT then it is at ACC.
Are you arguing that the cost of a college education is appropriately priced right now?
Because a credit hour at UT should be more expensive than at ACC because you should be getting a better "product" (THE USE OF THE WORD PRODUCT DOES NOT ENDORSE THE COMMODIFICATION OF EDUCATION) and there is a middle ground between your example and thinking that the current cost structure is appropriate.
0
Options
TehSlothHit Or MissI Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered Userregular
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Also, I fucking love that I'm seven thousand miles away but I still have to deal with bullshit back home.
What's that, little sister? You're in your early twenties but you still haven't done anything with your life and your dirtbag friends have started stealing from our house? No, no, that's fine.
Like I don't even know why I don't just off myself right now. Everything about myself and my situation just keeps getting worse.
o_O
Make your therapy appointments, study hard, eat your vegetables, etc. etc. Things - not everything - but lots of things get better as you become more independent and worldly. You see, life is like Final Fantasy 7 and when you're 20, you're just about to leave Midgar.
as I am about to turn 30 it appears I'm playing the Chocobo breeding game right now. Come on, black Chocobo.
Yeah, I don't think anywhere near 50% of a university's money goes toward salary expenses.
But tuition isn't the only revenue stream a university has. Even if my guesswork is wildly, wildly off, it's still going to be more expensive to earn the same credit hours at UT then it is at ACC.
Are you arguing that the cost of a college education is appropriately priced right now?
Of course it's not appropriately priced. But I'm not sure that comparing the cost of getting credits at community college is helpful, so I'm answering your questions and seeing where this goes.
Like, I definitely agree that academic institutions have fucked up their business model, but I see two problems with this in most of the discourse about it
One- the blame always gets thrown on the feet of administrators, and while they do make disproportionately more than educators and other employees, it seems to be accepted that most of the tuition inflation is a result of decreasing amounts of federal and public funding for universities. The university I just left saw a 40% tuition increase after a 30% decrease in state allocations to their budget.
Universities are hurting, bad, and while they may be making poor financial decisions, the solution to that isn't to cut them off of public funds, because that just makes the problem worse in the realm of tuition inflation.
What they should've done is cut their expenses by 30%, not increased tuition. I'm no economist, but I'd bet the majority of that increase will be covered in grants and loans. To me that says they saw a huge drop in revenue and instead of slashing overhead they knew they had a captive market that will buy whatever they sell so they just cranked up the price and offloaded their pain to customers who can't demand a refund if they get nothing of tangible value for their purchase.
very business-like, though, you gotta admit
I mean, if you had a captive market as a business, why wouldn't you do exactly this
Yeah, you're pretty correct there. It's unsustainable though... eventually you have somebody try to undercut your business. In this sector it's for-profit schools.
I wasn't the least bit surprised to see government begin to go after for-profit institutions for exactly the same problems traditional institutions have, with those very same institutions cheering from the sidelines.
What for-profit universities do is fleece people who have no idea how education works or should cost, for all their money. Pretty happy to see them get sued into oblivion in the next few years.
That describes the traditional university system just as well. I'd like to see all post-secondary education held to the same standards, and I'd be pretty happy to see a couple of universities sued into oblivion as well.
What portions or departments are you talking about? I'm curious.
It varies from institution to institution but heck, you even see blatant misrepresentation in graduate-level law programs. Practically every university will charge you more for your freshman core requirements than an associated community college, and they'll accept the CC's credits. When you agree that a far cheaper set of coursework is 100% equivalent to your more expensive offering, yet you still go to great lengths to convince students you're completely justified charging more and they believe you, that is some A-level fleecing.
If the only thing they were doing is selling you credits this might be the case
It isn't
Community colleges, are, by and large, terrible
They do try, and there are exceptions (almost always in the form of specific professors or departments) but there is a gulf between even the worst state schools and CCs in quality of education, even and perhaps especially at the survey level
What does it matter, if you're able to tackle the later coursework? A terrible Comp 1 class is equal to a fantastic, amazing Comp 1 class both in terms of the degree requirements to buy your credentials, and to your ability to succeed in meeting the rest of the requirements.
There's no reason Comp 1 from a university should cost you $1000 but only cost $125 at the community college.
False. Location is going to play a big role in all of this. Big Universities are either in cities, or at the center of college towns. Community colleges can exist anywhere, but usually don't require the same amount of capital to run. At the very base level, there's real estate. Then account for cost of living. Then account for having to pay people enough to attract talent.
Arguing that schools should be run more like a business is only going to escalate that problem, as market prices vary from place to place on pretty much anything.
Let's be more concrete then. University of Texas at Austin's freshman year costs ~$9000 in state not counting books and housing. The university owns the land through a grant enshrined in the Texas Constitution. A freshman taking a standard load is paying ~$1800 per course, about $600/credit hour. Let's be super generous and put 50% of that toward non-salary expenses of running the college... so we're talking ~$900 for Freshman Composition 101.
Austin Community College is 6 blocks away from the UT Campus and offers Composition 101 for $125. Do you really think UT's offering is 700% better?
I don't think it works like this.
Which part is wrong?
That you can compare like courses from two different universities, look at the costs and expenses of a university, and then make a judgement about the course.
Or, the whole thing.
I think you missed my larger point - the best Freshman comp 101 course in the history of everything is still nothing more than a basic set of coursework you need to check off on your list of requirements, and the education you got in the class won't have any bearing on whether or not you succeed in getting your degree. There isn't any way that course can have that much more value because it was taught at the university, and the university agrees! I know they do, because they allow students to substitute the CC credits.
So why is it 700% more expensive to get those credits at university?
Because the costs of running a university are much higher than a community college?
Look at my back-of-the-envelope guesses... I already tossed in 50% of the actual cost to cover non-salary expenses, and it's still ~700% more expensive for the same credit requirement.
Yeah, I don't think anywhere near 50% of a university's money goes toward salary expenses.
But tuition isn't the only revenue stream a university has. Even if my guesswork is wildly, wildly off, it's still going to be more expensive to earn the same credit hours at UT then it is at ACC.
Are you arguing that the cost of a college education is appropriately priced right now?
Because a credit hour at UT should be more expensive than at ACC because you should be getting a better "product" (THE USE OF THE WORD PRODUCT DOES NOT ENDORSE THE COMMODIFICATION OF EDUCATION) and there is a middle ground between your example and thinking that the current cost structure is appropriate.
I've touched on this twice already! It's not possible for Freshman Comp 1 to be better enough to justify the premium you pay for taking it at UT. UT agrees with me, because they accept ACC's comp 1 class as a 100% valid substitute.
What's wrong with the joyous union with your fellow brother, or bro for short.
The implications that you're supposed to keep your mouth shut about their indiscretions mainly. I'm not anyone's fucking priest and if you're being an immoral fuck I ain't protecting you no matter how much I love you.
If you were wondering why you don't have any friends, this would probably be a good place to start.
Facebook chat is the worst IM thing I've ever seen yet somehow I've transitioned into using it pretty much exclusively.
This is the story behind so many technologies
"it sucks but is omnipresent and others use it, so..."
Social networks and chatting systems are pretty similar in their need for saturation. I stopped using AIM because no one else used it. Chu made me reinstall it but then I just got his gchat deets.
Like I don't even know why I don't just off myself right now. Everything about myself and my situation just keeps getting worse.
o_O
Make your therapy appointments, study hard, eat your vegetables, etc. etc. Things - not everything - but lots of things get better as you become more independent and worldly. You see, life is like Final Fantasy 7 and when you're 20, you're just about to leave Midgar.
I just have too many things I need to get anywhere and I can't get them. It's starting to get to me.
0
Options
TehSlothHit Or MissI Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered Userregular
What's wrong with the joyous union with your fellow brother, or bro for short.
The implications that you're supposed to keep your mouth shut about their indiscretions mainly. I'm not anyone's fucking priest and if you're being an immoral fuck I ain't protecting you no matter how much I love you.
uh, what. we were talking about discussing our 'hot' and 'not hot' exes. Like, seriously dude, you have weird anger issues on here and sometimes they're not even at all related to the conversation at hand which is light and fun.
Go yell about comics or how much you hate pickles or something.
....What? The bro code was mentioned and I just offhandedly commented that I found it unsettling. -You- asked me to clarify so I did? How is that angry brosef? Like seriously? I think you're mistaking my boisterousness for anger a little too much if you think I'm "angry all the time". I do get mad. I am passionate but I am being conversational right now. If I am harshing your vibe pass the blunt to the jew on your left.
Because a credit hour at UT should be more expensive than at ACC because you should be getting a better "product" (THE USE OF THE WORD PRODUCT DOES NOT ENDORSE THE COMMODIFICATION OF EDUCATION) and there is a middle ground between your example and thinking that the current cost structure is appropriate.
I've touched on this twice already! It's not possible for Freshman Comp 1 to be better enough to justify the premium you pay for taking it at UT. UT agrees with me, because they accept ACC's comp 1 class as a 100% valid substitute.
Eh, my English 125 (pretty much English 101) class at UM had a lot of ESL kids in it. I doubt they would have seen the same improvement in their writing ability had they gone to a community college.
Psn:wazukki
0
Options
Madpandasuburbs west of chicagoRegistered Userregular
I just make tiny mistakes in my day to day life, and they snowball and become huge mistakes, and when I realize where I am everything is ruined.
That is my life so far.
Here is what I know about life:
Life is never neat.
But life is really hard to actually fuck up. Handy checklist when you make a mistake: Is your face scarred? Are you disabled? Wanted for a felony? Do you have a terminal disease or illness? Nope, then you're fine.
Yeah, I don't think anywhere near 50% of a university's money goes toward salary expenses.
But tuition isn't the only revenue stream a university has. Even if my guesswork is wildly, wildly off, it's still going to be more expensive to earn the same credit hours at UT then it is at ACC.
Are you arguing that the cost of a college education is appropriately priced right now?
Of course it's not appropriately priced. But I'm not sure that comparing the cost of getting credits at community college is helpful, so I'm answering your questions and seeing where this goes.
We got here by talking about how for-profit schools are fleecing their students by taking advantage of people who aren't able to determine the proper value of the courses they're buying. I said that the same thing is happening in traditional systems, and gave that example of the same basic course being wildly different in price at two institutions who both agree that teh coursework is equivalent.
0
Options
OnTheLastCastlelet's keep it haimish for the peripateticRegistered Userregular
The Bro Code by Barney Stinson is a great book though. It's very fun.
I listened to the audio book and enjoyed it quite a bit.
oh shit, it would be an excellent audiobook though it does have a lot of diagrams! IMPORTANT DIAGRAMS.
I might have to listen again cause I don't know if it mentioned them. I think the audio book for spaceship zombie wasteland came with a seperate cd with the images for the comic book chapter so they might've done something like that.
I think the value isn't in the education necessarily but the opportunities you get that you might not be able to get otherwise (ie; meeting kids with rich-ass parents and them seeing you as their equals, meeting rich-ass famous professors and them evaluating your work and writing recommendations, getting job opportunities from career services that otherwise wouldn't be available to you, etc)
"and the morning stars I have seen
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
Posts
SILENCE.
We aren't. I think "bro code" just tripped some sort of trigger not at all related to the conversation. I was making a joke.
Counterpoint: Caesar salad is in fact salad.
Because a credit hour at UT should be more expensive than at ACC because you should be getting a better "product" (THE USE OF THE WORD PRODUCT DOES NOT ENDORSE THE COMMODIFICATION OF EDUCATION) and there is a middle ground between your example and thinking that the current cost structure is appropriate.
I'm pretty easily nauseated, but those two things aren't mutually exclusive so in all likelihood it'd probably be both.
Also ashamed.
twitch.tv/tehsloth
What's that, little sister? You're in your early twenties but you still haven't done anything with your life and your dirtbag friends have started stealing from our house? No, no, that's fine.
This is the story behind so many technologies
"it sucks but is omnipresent and others use it, so..."
Burrito shop tricked me into getting extra chicken. I sympathize.
Of course it's not appropriately priced. But I'm not sure that comparing the cost of getting credits at community college is helpful, so I'm answering your questions and seeing where this goes.
I've touched on this twice already! It's not possible for Freshman Comp 1 to be better enough to justify the premium you pay for taking it at UT. UT agrees with me, because they accept ACC's comp 1 class as a 100% valid substitute.
But I feel like Vanilla kind of sucks
Like the GOTO 10s are not of exemplary quality
Social networks and chatting systems are pretty similar in their need for saturation. I stopped using AIM because no one else used it. Chu made me reinstall it but then I just got his gchat deets.
I just have too many things I need to get anywhere and I can't get them. It's starting to get to me.
I listened to the audio book and enjoyed it quite a bit.
twitch.tv/tehsloth
It is funny that I apparently come off as so much of a creeper on the internet.
....What? The bro code was mentioned and I just offhandedly commented that I found it unsettling. -You- asked me to clarify so I did? How is that angry brosef? Like seriously? I think you're mistaking my boisterousness for anger a little too much if you think I'm "angry all the time". I do get mad. I am passionate but I am being conversational right now. If I am harshing your vibe pass the blunt to the jew on your left.
http://www.regretsy.com/2012/04/25/no-you-cease-and-desist/
you can change that in your settings
oh shit, it would be an excellent audiobook though it does have a lot of diagrams! IMPORTANT DIAGRAMS.
what what goes where?!?!?!
That is my life so far.
both send the same one they find on the internet (the first one that results from a gis search for "dong")
it's a tale as old as time
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
peen twins
sir can you identify this penis from a lineup
Eh, my English 125 (pretty much English 101) class at UM had a lot of ESL kids in it. I doubt they would have seen the same improvement in their writing ability had they gone to a community college.
dong as old as rhyme
Steam/PSN/XBL/Minecraft / LoL / - Benevicious | WoW - Duckwood - Rajhek
Here is what I know about life:
Life is never neat.
But life is really hard to actually fuck up. Handy checklist when you make a mistake: Is your face scarred? Are you disabled? Wanted for a felony? Do you have a terminal disease or illness? Nope, then you're fine.
We got here by talking about how for-profit schools are fleecing their students by taking advantage of people who aren't able to determine the proper value of the courses they're buying. I said that the same thing is happening in traditional systems, and gave that example of the same basic course being wildly different in price at two institutions who both agree that teh coursework is equivalent.
^ for the new 3,000 employees expected in Austin
I might have to listen again cause I don't know if it mentioned them. I think the audio book for spaceship zombie wasteland came with a seperate cd with the images for the comic book chapter so they might've done something like that.
twitch.tv/tehsloth
*unregisters from college*
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin