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[LGBT]: Bigots can go eat a bag of [Chick-Fil-A]

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Posts

  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    Yeah and on the podcast he usually acknowledges that bi and trans folks don't agree with him on some issues, and does so up front. I've never personally heard him say anything that would count him as 'shithead about bi and trans folks'.

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  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    Forar wrote: »
    So, we've established that Dan's not doing shit all for anyone but a very narrow band of people (other than the IGB Project, but it's probably all aimed at young white gays, so we can skip that)?

    We've apparently established that you're more comfortable attacking strawman arguments. Who said this, exactly? Oh right: nobody outside of your head.

    Here's a question: how is somebody who is strongly opinionated and a self-declared asshole going to "admit these flaws", much less improve on them, if nobody tells him when he fucks up?

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  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    Mostly I've heard him say that Bi people are faking it and making comments about trans people being weird. I think it annoys people more because he's seen as speaking for them directly and saying stuff they find offensive.

  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    No, the thing with the transgender community is a little more than that:

    http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/11/dan-savage-queer-queer-glitter-bombing-victim/44539/

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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Mostly I've heard him say that Bi people are faking it and making comments about trans people being weird. I think it annoys people more because he's seen as speaking for them directly and saying stuff they find offensive.

    It's always sounded like opinion to me, not that he is claiming expertise, so it never bothered me. I tend to agree with him on it, but maybe I'm biased though, because while I know several bi people, they all date one sex exclusively. I usually just chalk it up to 'humans are complex'.

    MuddBudd on
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  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    It's always sounded like opinion to me, not that he is claiming expertise, so it never bothered me. I tend to agree with him on it, but maybe I'm biased though, because while I know several bi people, they all date one sex exclusively. I usually just chalk it up to 'humans are complex'.

    Yeah, you're biased. If a straight person said 'I know it's a stereotype that gay men can't form long-term loving relationships, but I tend to agree with that because I know several gay guys and they all sleep around constantly', you'd shit. (As would I.)

    Of course it's opinion. So? That's pretty much all of what he says; there's no "expertise" for Good, Giving and Game, say, or for virtually all of his columns and podcast (the exception being when he brings in an expert to discuss things that require, say, medical expertise, or that are beyond the scope of his knowledge). Why does "it's just his opinion" mean that it's not OK to criticize?

    Again: I don't get the idea that if a leading figure in the LGBT community does both great things and shitty things, that it's a party foul to point out the shitty things in the hope that he will quit doing said shitty things.

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  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    mythago wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    So, we've established that Dan's not doing shit all for anyone but a very narrow band of people (other than the IGB Project, but it's probably all aimed at young white gays, so we can skip that)?

    We've apparently established that you're more comfortable attacking strawman arguments. Who said this, exactly? Oh right: nobody outside of your head.

    Here's a question: how is somebody who is strongly opinionated and a self-declared asshole going to "admit these flaws", much less improve on them, if nobody tells him when he fucks up?
    Blackjack wrote: »
    G rights you mean.

    Upper middle class, white, g rights.

    Holy crap Mythago, did I accidentally kick your puppy while posting that?

    Pardon a little hyperbole, but this right here is what I specifically referenced. Paring down what he has said and done to simply "nope, wealthy white gay guy only concerned about wealthy white gay guy concerns".

    And I even agree that he should have his biases, flaws and whatnot pointed out. You're right, he can't improve if he doesn't receive constructive feedback.

    'He doesn't give a shit about anyone but gay guys' is not constructive feedback when there is ample evidence to the contrary.

    Edit: hell, Savage was where I learned that bisexuals get shit from everyone, and it wasn't even during an anti-bisexual rant.

    Also, he does post/answer critiques of his advice or statements from time to time, and his views on bisexuals specifically have been called out and responded to. I too am a reader from the days of "Hey Faggot", and I'd say he has at least improved over the decades. There is always room for improvement.

    Forar on
  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    Regardless, it doesn't make him wrong on the current topic. Fuck the kids who walked out. I'll give them points for not being loud and disruptive, but their religion is a major roadblock to gay rights in the country and refusing to listen to people who speak the truth about that gets them nowhere.

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  • DelzhandDelzhand motivated battle programmerRegistered User regular
    Disappointing to hear that the ratio of fer/agin yard signs for Amendment One here in Greensboro is apparently not indicative of the state as a whole. Between Winston-Salem and Greensboro, I've seen maybe 5-6 signs in support, and hundreds against.

    And the 'for' signs have only started showing up recently, like people are just finding out. Wonder if there's money/publicity flowing from shadow groups since it looks close.

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  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    Regardless, it doesn't make him wrong on the current topic. Fuck the kids who walked out. I'll give them points for not being loud and disruptive, but their religion is a major roadblock to gay rights in the country and refusing to listen to people who speak the truth about that gets them nowhere.

    Also, it's interesting the parallels to the gay rights movement from the 60's, leading up to and following the Stonewall riots. From books I've read of that time, there was dissent within the G/L communities regarding how to proceed. Those who advocated restraint, attempts to show a non-threatening face that would play well with others, so to speak. Conversely, there were those who cited other movements that were loudly outspoken, who took measures vocally to the streets figuratively and literally.

    I see Dan as a modern extension of the latter; he's not always right about everything, but he's vocal and willing to get in the face of the establishment and thumb his nose at them.

    I do not dispute that his handling of issues that involve lesbians/transgender rights/women/etc have pock marks and could continue to use some work (based on what I have read critiquing him, as I am not a lesbian, transgender, a woman, etc), but pithy minimization does disservice to the person who did ultimately help shine a light on the long standing horrors of LGBTQ suicide rates.
    Trans Mafia et al (yes they are real)

    Oh. My. God.

    Edit: That's not wonky forum timestamp stuff, I just didn't want to spam the thread with a throwaway post.

    Super late edit: references to things he's said on his show (podcast?) I can't speak to, as I haven't listened to the podcast.

    Forar on
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    The Savage backlash by the Trans Mafia et al (yes they are real) is fairly warranted. He has to choose whether to be snarky or a leader and soon. I am a huge Dan Savage apologist but he has a litany of terrible things he has said on his show that can't really be defended anymore and I totally get why it upsets people. His ITGBP is amazing and he should get a Nobel peace prize for it, but he has a lot of work to do with effectively communicating about and to the lesbian, trans, and bi communities.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    JHunz wrote: »
    You might be able to get out of a procedure that violates your beliefs, but doesn't the Hippocratic oath mean you can't refuse a patient based on theirs?
    That would be great if healthcare providers actually had to take the Hippocratic Oath, or if were binding if they did. Too bad about that.

    I learn something every day. Too bad it usually sucks.

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  • Brian888Brian888 Registered User
    Magus` wrote: »
    A friend of my mom's told me that all the Founders were actually Christians and that the history books were lying. I wasn't really sure what to say to that.

    Just ask her what her proof is. It's a common argument, but an easily refuted one.


    Be warned, however, as in dealing with anyone who has already bought into one unfounded conspiracy, no amount of logic and reason may suffice.

    Yep. It's very hard to reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  • CogliostroCogliostro Marginal Opinions Spring, TXRegistered User regular
    You might be able to get out of a procedure that violates your beliefs, but doesn't the Hippocratic oath mean you can't refuse a patient based on theirs?

    Physicians take the Hippocratic oath. Not nurses, EMT's or paramedics. We're supposed to live by it, but it's not an oath.

  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    My mom refuses to believe Christians have ever now or in the past done something bad. When I pull up stuff like the Inquisition she's like "Oh, I've never heard of that.."

    A lot of the religious people I know (which happen to be mainly middle aged white ladies) very much pick and choose what they want out of the Bible. I avoid them as much as I can. She also tells me I'm going to hell, but if it gets me away from these people, I'm ok with this.

  • CogliostroCogliostro Marginal Opinions Spring, TXRegistered User regular
    Sending bad people to hell is like sending kids to their room; it's where all their toys are! :>

  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    My mom refuses to believe Christians have ever now or in the past done something bad. When I pull up stuff like the Inquisition she's like "Oh, I've never heard of that.."

    A lot of the religious people I know (which happen to be mainly middle aged white ladies) very much pick and choose what they want out of the Bible. I avoid them as much as I can. She also tells me I'm going to hell, but if it gets me away from these people, I'm ok with this.

    There's your argument right there. Just throw it back at her.

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  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    Forar wrote: »
    Holy crap Mythago, did I accidentally kick your puppy while posting that?

    Holy crap Forar, why do you think that it's OK for you to be sarcastic and eye-rolling but everybody else has to play Miss Manners' timid little sister? The 'hyperbole' was misrepresenting what I said and, really, not what Blackjack said.

    Yes, he's gotten better over time. (He's still a shithead on a lot of issues, and yes, he has some pretty fucking huge privilege blinders spot-welded over his eyeballs.) That's because people have been calling him on his shit. It is therefore kind of silly goosy to suggest that it's mean or "the enemy of the good" or counterproductive to call him on his shit. Nobody is saying that Savage ought to STFU or hurts the community or has done nothing for us.

    As for his remarks, I'm a little puzzled in that it seemed like he was supposed to be talking about journalism, not the Bible. If his follow-up remarks are true, then I don't get what the students' problem was; he wasn't bagging on Christians, he was bagging on hypocrites.

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  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    mythago wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Holy crap Mythago, did I accidentally kick your puppy while posting that?

    Holy crap Forar, why do you think that it's OK for you to be sarcastic and eye-rolling but everybody else has to play Miss Manners' timid little sister? The 'hyperbole' was misrepresenting what I said and, really, not what Blackjack said.

    I was specifically referring to Blackjack. Apparently I should have quoted them directly, but it wasn't aimed at you in the first place.

    Forar on
  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Gay Romney Advisor Richard Grenell Resigns After Campaign by Anti-Gay Conservatives
    Richard Grenell, Mitt Romney's recently appointed openly gay spokesman, has resigned in the wake of a campaign by social conservatives, the Washington Post's Jennifer Rubin reports.

    Said Grenell in a statement:

    I have decided to resign from the Romney campaign as the Foreign Policy and National Security Spokesman. While I welcomed the challenge to confront President Obama’s foreign policy failures and weak leadership on the world stage, my ability to speak clearly and forcefully on the issues has been greatly diminished by the hyper-partisan discussion of personal issues that sometimes comes from a presidential campaign. I want to thank Governor Romney for his belief in me and my abilities and his clear message to me that being openly gay was a non-issue for him and his team.

    Adds Rubin: "According to sources familiar with the situation, Grenell decided to resign after being kept under wraps during a time when national security issues, including the president’s ad concerning Osama bin Laden, had emerged front and center in the campaign."

    The American Family Association's Bryan Fischer was among those leading the charge.

    Argued Fischer in a CNN appearance: "Well, the point here is that personnel is policy. Everybody in D.C. says that. Personnel is policy. When Governor Romney picks somebody who is an activist homosexual and puts him in a prominent position, he’s sending a shout out, it seems to me, to the homosexual lobby."

    Grenell had also been criticized for his sexist tweets (which were deleted from his account).

    This seems... well, is the base really so far to the right now that gay people can't even WORK for conservative candidates?

    MuddBudd on
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  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    "Activist homosexual" means "a human gay person"

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    Yes, it's really that far right. As I said in the presidential campaign thread, that parting shot of a quote is brilliant. Keeps his dignity in tact, all while giving a hearty "Fuck you and your inability to have a spine" to Romney, and nicely pointing out to all those neo-cons that their dear Romney doesn't hate the gays as much as they do.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    Yeah, that's a win-win-win. It's something the Obama campaign can point to as the intolerance of the right, it's not going to mollify the hard right because of what he said about Romney not having a problem with it, and a complete fucking asshole lost his job.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    "Activist homosexual" means "a human gay person"

    Pretty much. Any gay person who isn't ashamed to be gay, and wants some sort of equal rights, is an "activist homosexual" to the far right. Basically if you have the audacity to call them on their shit, you're an activist homosexual.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    Magus` wrote: »
    My mom refuses to believe Christians have ever now or in the past done something bad. When I pull up stuff like the Inquisition she's like "Oh, I've never heard of that.."

    A lot of the religious people I know (which happen to be mainly middle aged white ladies) very much pick and choose what they want out of the Bible. I avoid them as much as I can. She also tells me I'm going to hell, but if it gets me away from these people, I'm ok with this.

    There's your argument right there. Just throw it back at her.

    Hint: I'm pretty sure she's heard of it.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    Magus` wrote: »
    My mom refuses to believe Christians have ever now or in the past done something bad. When I pull up stuff like the Inquisition she's like "Oh, I've never heard of that.."

    A lot of the religious people I know (which happen to be mainly middle aged white ladies) very much pick and choose what they want out of the Bible. I avoid them as much as I can. She also tells me I'm going to hell, but if it gets me away from these people, I'm ok with this.

    There's your argument right there. Just throw it back at her.

    Hint: I'm pretty sure she's heard of it.

    Your mom is what I call a quasi-Christian. She cherry picks the parts of the religion that support her already biased views, or that get her something in return (I bet she loves that whole going to heaven and Jesus dying for her sins part). She ignores the parts that don't jive which what she wants to believe, or don't give her something in return. Most 'Christians' in America today are quasi-Christians. Most of them don't even know what the Bible actually says, outside of the passages their equally biased pastor gives them every Sunday. Ask them some hard questions about the more obscure books of the Bible sometime, and watch the sputtering back pedaling and red faces of embarrassment.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    Funny thing is her and her friends say that anyone who doesn't think what they think aren't the 'real' Christians. I gotta think there is some brain thing that makes people believe shit like this.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    Funny thing is her and her friends say that anyone who doesn't think what they think aren't the 'real' Christians. I gotta think there is some brain thing that makes people believe shit like this.

    Of course they say that. That is the net outcome of a completely improvable hypothesis, that can't even be sort of kind of verified through observation. It becomes easy, even encouraged, to downplay any thought or theory that isn't your own...I mean, who's going to argue with you? Nothing can be proven anyway, so your way is obviously the right way, because no one can objectively say different.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    Grenell has been part of the campaign for a long time, but he's shot his mouth off and made some truly dumbass remarks (and I don't mean "not right wing" remarks, I mean stuff like telling Rachel Maddow to "put on a necklace"). That gave the conservadouches backing Romney ammo to get rid of him.

    Magus, if forced, to talk to such people, it's always fun to arm yourself with Bible quotes (Matthew 7:21 is particularly good) pointing out religious hypocrisy.

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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    North Carolina Pastor Sean Harris Urges Parents to 'Punch' Their 'Girlish' Sons, Crack Their Limp Wrists

    Jeremy Hooper at Good as You has posted some extremely disturbing audio identified as Sean Harris, the Senior Pastor of Berean Baptist Church in Fayetteville, NC, giving his congregation a "special dispensation" to beat their children if they think they might be falling outside of gender norms.

    Harris also urged his congregation to vote for North Carolina's Amendment One in an hourlong sermon posted on Sunday.

    Says Harris at the beginning of his horrifying rant (thanks to Jeremy for the transcript):

    "So your little son starts to act a little girlish when he is four years old and instead of squashing that like a cockroach and saying, 'Man up, son, get that dress off you and get outside and dig a ditch, because that is what boys do,' you get out the camera and you start taking pictures of Johnny acting like a female and then you upload it to YouTube and everybody laughs about it and the next thing you know, this dude, this kid is acting out childhood fantasies that should have been squashed."

    He adds:

    "Can I make it any clearer? Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch. Ok? You are not going to act like that. You were made by God to be a male and you are going to be a male."

    Harris has advice for parents who think their daughters might be acting too butch:

    "And when your daughter starts acting to Butch you reign her in. And you say, 'Oh, no, sweetheart. You can play sports. Play them to the glory of God. But sometimes you are going to act like a girl and walk like a girl and talk like a girl and smell like a girl and that means you are going to be beautiful. You are going to be attractive. You are going to dress yourself up.'"

    Adds Harris: “Can I take charge like that as a parent? Yeah, you can. You are authorized. I just gave you a special dispensation this morning to do that."


    The religion of love, everyone.

    MuddBudd on
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  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    "Smell like a girl"? That is the creepiest fucking thing I've seen all week.

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  • CogliostroCogliostro Marginal Opinions Spring, TXRegistered User regular
    MMmmm mythago... you smell like thuh inside o' my momma's purse.
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  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    I wish I could say I was shocked and angered...but the reality is this kind of crazy shit gets vomited out by these kinds of people so often, I am a bit desensitized. These are the people who gave us "gay rehabilitation" after all.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    Well, you guys are in luck. I'm giving out a special indulgence to correct bigoted preachers. I recommend broken pool cues and savag eliquor fueled beatings.

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  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    Actually, those comments lead very nicely in to an article I read on Time the other day about "childism". Essentially the article was about how we don't wrap up the various child abuses in to a term called "childism", like we do with sexism or racism, and that the root cause is because we still have a model of "owning" our children. This kind of vomit is exactly that. Christians especially love to espouse the ideals of ownership of their children. It also got in to how as a society, we have this idea that children are inherently "wrong" and must be "corrected". Again, this is very much espoused in the Christian community.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    mythago wrote: »
    Grenell has been part of the campaign for a long time, but he's shot his mouth off and made some truly dumbass remarks (and I don't mean "not right wing" remarks, I mean stuff like telling Rachel Maddow to "put on a necklace"). That gave the conservadouches backing Romney ammo to get rid of him.

    Magus, if forced, to talk to such people, it's always fun to arm yourself with Bible quotes (Matthew 7:21 is particularly good) pointing out religious hypocrisy.

    The Bible burns my skin when I touch it. I'm not sure why.

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    North Carolina Pastor Sean Harris Urges Parents to 'Punch' Their 'Girlish' Sons, Crack Their Limp Wrists
    Spoiler:

    The religion of love, everyone.

    This fits in nicely with that radio host who suggested that a caller (a father who thought his daughter might be gay) pay a friend to rape his daughter straight.

  • DirtyDirtyVagrantDirtyDirtyVagrant Registered User regular
    I'm not sure if I'm more furious at that pastor's comments or at the "amen"s and laughter he's getting from the stupid fucking assholes in his audience.

    URGH I just want to scream.

  • NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action Still AwesomeRegistered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    mythago wrote: »
    Grenell has been part of the campaign for a long time, but he's shot his mouth off and made some truly dumbass remarks (and I don't mean "not right wing" remarks, I mean stuff like telling Rachel Maddow to "put on a necklace"). That gave the conservadouches backing Romney ammo to get rid of him.

    Magus, if forced, to talk to such people, it's always fun to arm yourself with Bible quotes (Matthew 7:21 is particularly good) pointing out religious hypocrisy.

    The Bible burns my skin when I touch it. I'm not sure why.

    Latex/neoprene gloves are cheap these days...

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  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
This discussion has been closed.