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[PA Comic] Wednesday, May 2, 2012 - The Ultimatrix

Robot SantaRobot Santa Enforcer of Christmas FearNorth PoleRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
edited May 2012 in The Penny Arcade Hub
«1

Posts

  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray the swamp, always the swampRegistered User regular
    Big comic is big. It doesn't fit in the frame on the comic page on my browser (Firefox).

    still, I like this, there's just *more* art to look at. :D

    Elendil wrote: »
    said Aldo hazily, before clop-clop-clopping out of the room
  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    I heard that in product competition, the competition is strong when each product has a quality the competitors can't provide. Thus the consumers have to make a harder choice, while none of the products are actually flawed.

    I hope the purpose behind this comic isn't to suggest that all the games mentioned are shit because they aren't all providing those qualities in a single product. All-or-nothing mentality from video game players is kinda annoying. Not having a feature or design theory another game has doesn't make something bad.

    "Ultima Online Pre-Trammel is the perfect example of why libertarians are full of shit."
    - @Ludious
    PA Lets Play Archive - Twitter - Blog (6/15/14)
  • FandeathisFandeathis Registered User regular
    I feel this way about so many MMOs. If only we could take the best parts from all of them. Some of the combat in Age of Conan was remarkable. It's a shame the rest of the game was a mess.

    You fuck wit' Die Antwoord, you fuck wit' da army.
  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    It helps that after spending a nontrivial percentage of my life playing WoW, I've decided to never again play an MMO.

    I can not let that happen again.

    Also its been a looooong time since we've seen Thomas Kemper in a comic.

    Monkey Ball Warrior on
    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
  • Maz-Maz- Now it's Shulk time! Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    I heard that in product competition, the competition is strong when each product has a quality the competitors can't provide. Thus the consumers have to make a harder choice, while none of the products are actually flawed.

    I hope the purpose behind this comic isn't to suggest that all the games mentioned are shit because they aren't all providing those qualities in a single product. All-or-nothing mentality from video game players is kinda annoying. Not having a feature or design theory another game has doesn't make something bad.

    You sound way too reasonable, down-to-earth and rational. We can't have that in the gaming community.

    Steam | Origin: MazPA | 3DS: 1848-2888-3654 | Nintendo Network ID: Maz_PA
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Registered User regular
    KITTY! Sometimes I talk to my younger cat like that. :D

    Steam ID: Hahnsoo, Steam Name currently: Hahnsopolis | PSN: Hahnsoo | Monster Hunter Tri: Hahnsoo, E8HJCA
  • Black_HeartBlack_Heart Registered User regular
    Having played TOR and am currently play TERA, and seen lots of Guild Wars 2 videos, I've thought this exact same thing recently.

    "Gee, TERA sure is fun to play, too bad the quests are boring and aren't fully voiced like TOR."
    "TOR sure does have awesome storylines, companions, and quest cinematics... too bad the gameplay is boring."

    Mayhaps Blizzard is looking at all the competition while they build project Titan or this hush-hush MMO people say they are making, and will implement all these systems together so that they may grasp every human on the planet in their online multiplayer grip.
    so... The Secret World then?

    hahahahaha... ohh my no. I've been following Cabal/The Secret World for quite a while and for the longest time was convinced it was just vaporware like SO many other super ambitious MMOs. From what I've seen and heard it does have a few interesting systems, but I haven't seen anything to indicate it will match what other Triple A MMOs are offering.

    XBL/PSN Name - Jashinslayer
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/Jashinslayer
  • EvilRedEyeEvilRedEye Registered User regular
  • 2 Marcus 2 Ravens2 Marcus 2 Ravens Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    I heard that in product competition, the competition is strong when each product has a quality the competitors can't provide. Thus the consumers have to make a harder choice, while none of the products are actually flawed.

    I hope the purpose behind this comic isn't to suggest that all the games mentioned are shit because they aren't all providing those qualities in a single product. All-or-nothing mentality from video game players is kinda annoying. Not having a feature or design theory another game has doesn't make something bad.

    A game isn't allowed to have a great story and engaging gameplay?

    Because that's basically what this comic boils down to, in a silly hyperbolic kind of way.

  • jackaljackal Registered User regular
    I need a Venn diagram.

  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    Should have added cat to the the third panel.

    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • SwashbucklerXXSwashbucklerXX Swashbucklin' Canuck Fabulously Ford-Free TorontoRegistered User regular
    I thought Guild Wars 2 was a blast to play, but it's all good, Gabe. Agree that the storytelling isn't as good as TOR's, though.

    Want to find me on a gaming service? I'm SwashbucklerXX everywhere.
    3DS Friend Code: 3823-8693-5976
    Guild Wars 2: Julia Cappo Final Fantasy XIV: G'rhant Tia, Hyperion Server
  • Maz-Maz- Now it's Shulk time! Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Derp

    sorry about the double post, meant to edit not quote

    Maz- on
    Steam | Origin: MazPA | 3DS: 1848-2888-3654 | Nintendo Network ID: Maz_PA
  • Maz-Maz- Now it's Shulk time! Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Edit: woops, disregard this post

    I'll think of something clever to put here later

    Maz- on
    Steam | Origin: MazPA | 3DS: 1848-2888-3654 | Nintendo Network ID: Maz_PA
  • HunterHunter Chemist with a heart of Au Registered User regular
  • StormwatcherStormwatcher Uee Citizen Record #2051 Über Star CitizenRegistered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    I heard that in product competition, the competition is strong when each product has a quality the competitors can't provide. Thus the consumers have to make a harder choice, while none of the products are actually flawed.

    I hope the purpose behind this comic isn't to suggest that all the games mentioned are shit because they aren't all providing those qualities in a single product. All-or-nothing mentality from video game players is kinda annoying. Not having a feature or design theory another game has doesn't make something bad.

    That's nice and all in theory, but doesn't dismiss the comic's point. To Gabe (and many others, including me), a good MMO should have a balance of gameplay, quest quality and storytelling. The three games he mentions are severely unbalanced in two of the three aspects. Also, you can't really play more than one MMO concurrently, and the time and money you invest in an MMO demand a high return in quality experience The reasonable reaction here is not picking the one with the best strength, but not playing any of them. And that is a problem.

    None of that disproves the "competition fosters quality" concept, much the contrary. thing is, to many people, the MMO makers have yet to reach the level of quality that justifies those players' investment.

    Steam: Stormwatcher | XBL: Stormwatcher 21 | PSN: Stormwatcher33 | Gamecenter: Stormwatcher33 | 3DS: 0130-2805-2850
    steam_sig.png
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    I talk to my cat in this exact manner.

    She fucking hates it.

  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    I heard that in product competition, the competition is strong when each product has a quality the competitors can't provide. Thus the consumers have to make a harder choice, while none of the products are actually flawed.

    I hope the purpose behind this comic isn't to suggest that all the games mentioned are shit because they aren't all providing those qualities in a single product. All-or-nothing mentality from video game players is kinda annoying. Not having a feature or design theory another game has doesn't make something bad.

    A game isn't allowed to have a great story and engaging gameplay?

    Because that's basically what this comic boils down to, in a silly hyperbolic kind of way.
    I think it's not that they aren't allowed to, but it seems, in this instance, they just don't.

    steam_sig.png
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Aldo wrote: »
    Big comic is big. It doesn't fit in the frame on the comic page on my browser (Firefox).

    still, I like this, there's just *more* art to look at. :D
    Same here. FireFox.

    steam_sig.png
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Aldo wrote: »
    Big comic is big. It doesn't fit in the frame on the comic page on my browser (Firefox).

    still, I like this, there's just *more* art to look at. :D
    Same here. FireFox.

    And Chrome. Kitty did not get all the litter off its feet...

  • Locke6854Locke6854 Registered User regular
    I have a feeling this comic enlargement has to do with viewing on the new ipad "retina" display. Remember when they said its large resolution made existing pages uglier and blurier? They joked about upping the detail or resolution, and then drew themselves how they look in real life...

  • Brew78Brew78 Registered User regular
    jackal wrote: »
    I need a Venn diagram.

    Ok, I was bored. Waiting for some equipment to open up so I can continue working. You know, at "work".

    Singular pro's: http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1647/venn1.png
    Combined con's: http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9785/venn2.png

  • ChlupululuuChlupululuu Registered User
    I thought Guild Wars 2 was a blast to play, but it's all good, Gabe. Agree that the storytelling isn't as good as TOR's, though.

    I agree, I had a lot of fun in the GW2 beta, can't wait for the next one.

    And, like others, the comic was giant and weird for me in Firefox.

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    The problem isn't that a gaming company can't put together a game with all those qualities. The problem is that any one company that tries to do that is going to make a deformed mutant, not an MMO messiah. Each of the three game companies specializes into something for their game. Its not enough to copy the mechanics of another game, it would take a coalition of game companies and an overarching company that's good at utilizing those companies to make the Gabe-game.

  • KnaraKnara Registered User regular
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    The problem isn't that a gaming company can't put together a game with all those qualities. The problem is that any one company that tries to do that is going to make a deformed mutant, not an MMO messiah. Each of the three game companies specializes into something for their game. Its not enough to copy the mechanics of another game, it would take a coalition of game companies and an overarching company that's good at utilizing those companies to make the Gabe-game.

    As soon as someone invents the Metaverse, this won't be a problem. I'm certain of it.

  • jackaljackal Registered User regular
    Brew78 wrote: »
    jackal wrote: »
    I need a Venn diagram.

    Ok, I was bored. Waiting for some equipment to open up so I can continue working. You know, at "work".

    Singular pro's: http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1647/venn1.png
    Combined con's: http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9785/venn2.png

    You forgot to put WoW in the center of the cons diagram.

  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    I heard that in product competition, the competition is strong when each product has a quality the competitors can't provide. Thus the consumers have to make a harder choice, while none of the products are actually flawed.

    I hope the purpose behind this comic isn't to suggest that all the games mentioned are shit because they aren't all providing those qualities in a single product. All-or-nothing mentality from video game players is kinda annoying. Not having a feature or design theory another game has doesn't make something bad.

    A game isn't allowed to have a great story and engaging gameplay?

    Because that's basically what this comic boils down to, in a silly hyperbolic kind of way.

    They're allowed to, but the the problem is expectations on what qualifies as great story or gameplay. Or hell, not even great, but even just good. It's all subjective. Usually I don't see people taking a video game for what it is. People praise TOR for doing something new with story, but because it didn't do something new for gameplay at the same time, oh man, suddenly it's a bad game. Or maybe it's actually an acceptable game and people are just getting caught in the all-or-nothing trap I mentioned above.

    "Ultima Online Pre-Trammel is the perfect example of why libertarians are full of shit."
    - @Ludious
    PA Lets Play Archive - Twitter - Blog (6/15/14)
  • TarranonTarranon Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I heard that in product competition, the competition is strong when each product has a quality the competitors can't provide. Thus the consumers have to make a harder choice, while none of the products are actually flawed.

    I hope the purpose behind this comic isn't to suggest that all the games mentioned are shit because they aren't all providing those qualities in a single product. All-or-nothing mentality from video game players is kinda annoying. Not having a feature or design theory another game has doesn't make something bad.

    A game isn't allowed to have a great story and engaging gameplay?

    Because that's basically what this comic boils down to, in a silly hyperbolic kind of way.

    They're allowed to, but the the problem is expectations on what qualifies as great story or gameplay. Or hell, not even great, but even just good. It's all subjective. Usually I don't see people taking a video game for what it is. People praise TOR for doing something new with story, but because it didn't do something new for gameplay at the same time, oh man, suddenly it's a bad game. Or maybe it's actually an acceptable game and people are just getting caught in the all-or-nothing trap I mentioned above.

    the frustration stems from how easy it is to imagine what it would be like if you had all of the qualities that are so apparent. I mean, the things we're talking about here aren't really vague or nuanced, players very clearly see what they like about each experience. it's not like they're just asking the games to be "better". the features are well delineated.

    I remember thinking the exact same thing about the harvest moon series back when i was addicted to them as a kid. THIS game had really cool festivals but no cooking. THIS one lets you experiment a lot more with the crops but almost completely removes the fun house expansions, and so on. Lacking those features didn't make them bad games, but I always just wished they would make a game that kept all of the great ones.

    and I just can't agree that it's somehow bratty or annoying to want multiple features you like in one game. also also I think we do have a fun game at some point on the horizon that can capture the best things about current MMO paradigms while cutting out the cruft. Isn't that what WoW basically did all those years ago?

  • EvilBadmanEvilBadman DO NOT TRUST THIS MAN Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    It helps that after spending a nontrivial percentage of my life playing WoW, I've decided to never again play an MMO.

    I can not let that happen again.

    Also its been a looooong time since we've seen Thomas Kemper in a comic.
    He's been around recently, lounging as cats are wont to do, it looks like he's lost weight, though.

    EvilBadman on
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    I should note that Badman is fucking awesome
    XBL- Evil Badman MD; Steam- EvilBadman; Twitter - EvilBadman
  • AurichAurich Registered User regular
    I don't really understand why TOR isn't fun to play. It is a blatant, almost religious imitation of WoW, and that shouldn't be a problem for me. I could go hop on my old warrior and do some Tol Barad dailies and cut some unsuspecting players in half and have loads of straightforward fun at basically any time. But thinking about ANY of my TOR characters... I'm immediately bored. I've got a vague idea that TOR is so rigid and careful and structured that it doesn't really feel like gameplay as much as one great long tutorial. There's practically a green line on the ground marking where you're supposed to go at all times.

  • 7BitBrian7BitBrian VirginiaRegistered User new member
    edited May 2012
    Henroid wrote: »
    I heard that in product competition, the competition is strong when each product has a quality the competitors can't provide. Thus the consumers have to make a harder choice, while none of the products are actually flawed.

    I hope the purpose behind this comic isn't to suggest that all the games mentioned are shit because they aren't all providing those qualities in a single product. All-or-nothing mentality from video game players is kinda annoying. Not having a feature or design theory another game has doesn't make something bad.

    Truth, this man speaks it.

    Furthermore, after playing the GW2 Beta this weekend I found the personal story very engaging and fun, and I literally could not put the game down and miss it so much now. I'd say we can safely assume I was having fun... so....yea.

    Truth be told it's all subjective and left up to the opinion of the individual, while you may not like something I may think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. It is impossible to appease everyone, and a bit bratty to want everything to appease you.

    7BitBrian on
  • CrewMember169CrewMember169 Registered User regular
    It helps that after spending a nontrivial percentage of my life playing WoW, I've decided to never again play an MMO.

    I don't object to playing another MMO. I'm just not going to play an MMO that is simply WoW with different graphics.

  • TubeTube Says some shit Administrator, ClubPA admin
    I have fun playing TOR so

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    I quite enjoyed my two hours of GW2. I didn't like Tera much. TOR was super fun until it suddenly wasn't.

    Hooray, we all have different opinions. I'm honestly really surprised that Mike and Jerry liked Tera the most, though. Soooo Korean.

    "Well, look at this. Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What's that make us?"
    "Big Damn Heroes, Sir."
    "Ain't we just."
  • glithertglithert Snortin' K Luthor's towerRegistered User regular
    Runescape is clearly the greatest mmo of all time

    5vc48Bb.jpg
  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I have fun playing TOR so

    SO THIS COMIC IS SHIT, FUCK PENNY ARCADE YEAH *SUNGLASSES INDOORS*

    But to be serious yeah, I'm still looking forward to TOR even after all I've heard. All the stuff regarding "it plays like WoW" is like... I dunno, big deal. I like how WoW plays compared to other MMOs I played, so I mean... that's a plus. But it has been a known thing about TOR for a long time. People jumping into TOR and acting surprised at the similarities seems odd to me, and other negative impressions I've seen have been disingenuous (an example is a bug that showed up following a patch, regarding some PvP rewards; people reacted like it was done on purpose).

    On that note, lots of games have similar play styles. There's other hallmarks and hooks and merits to decide if a game is good or not. And I'm not saying it can't be a legit concern, but I mean, I think it's an echo chamber thing.
    Henroid wrote: »
    I heard that in product competition, the competition is strong when each product has a quality the competitors can't provide. Thus the consumers have to make a harder choice, while none of the products are actually flawed.

    I hope the purpose behind this comic isn't to suggest that all the games mentioned are shit because they aren't all providing those qualities in a single product. All-or-nothing mentality from video game players is kinda annoying. Not having a feature or design theory another game has doesn't make something bad.

    That's nice and all in theory, but doesn't dismiss the comic's point. To Gabe (and many others, including me), a good MMO should have a balance of gameplay, quest quality and storytelling. The three games he mentions are severely unbalanced in two of the three aspects.

    But is this actual fact or quality assessment? Are the settings of Tera and Guild Wars constructed in ways where the players aren't meant to be the heroes, but constructed well in that regard? I know these are really weird questions to ask, but if you look at something like the first Half-Life, Gordon Freeman wasn't THE guy everyone was like, "OH SHIT, WE'RE SAVED!" over. You were playing the game as a guy who was stuck in a situation way over his head, just being thrust along. You happen to be an important component, but there's little to no fame involved. So an MMO setting can be constructed that way. An easier way to ask this is, is there a Lord British equivalent in those games? :P

    Totally exposing my nerd life here, but I kinda run into this shit a lot when I RP in WoW. Everyone is trying to be some grand hero in the world, and take the actual content / achievements their character has been through and apply it as hard fact. But everyone is the Veteran of the Wrath Gate who the dragon queen calls to. Everyone is the guy who fought alongside John J. Keesham. You've gotta be willing to step aside and decide, "Maybe I'm not that guy" when interacting with others. That's the problem with narrative in MMOs that people always bring up. If Guild Wars and Tera made you feel like THE guy, it'd just loop back around to this issue. There's no winning. The game can falsely make you feel like the guy, or you can be a small part of the big machine.
    Also, you can't really play more than one MMO concurrently, and the time and money you invest in an MMO demand a high return in quality experience The reasonable reaction here is not picking the one with the best strength, but not playing any of them. And that is a problem.

    None of that disproves the "competition fosters quality" concept, much the contrary. thing is, to many people, the MMO makers have yet to reach the level of quality that justifies those players' investment.

    Until recently I was playing three MMOs concurrently, and currently am playing two. For me, it's just like any other genre out there. The issue is the money investment, yes. But if you have the money to burn and aren't crippling yourself, then it's not a problem. It's okay to play multiple MMOs at once, especially now that many of them are adopting the freemium model. The way I see the argument, it's like saying "you can't really play more than one FPS concurrently," or RPG, or RTS, etc. But that's just me, I don't mind paying money for services. Paying money for things is an entirely separate issue I think. Though if you want to keep it tightly bound to this topic, "Why do I have to pay for Call of Duty and Halo and Gears of War? Why can't they make a game that takes all the best aspects from those and make one game?"

    They tried that over the last couple of decades. Duke Nukem Forever. And look how that turned out.

    Edit - Just to be clear on that DNF dig, I'm not talking about the final product, I'm talking about the development cycle and how much time and money was burned on trying to make the game keep up with newly developed features in video games. If you try to do that to an MMO's development, you're fucking yourself massively.

    Henroid on
    "Ultima Online Pre-Trammel is the perfect example of why libertarians are full of shit."
    - @Ludious
    PA Lets Play Archive - Twitter - Blog (6/15/14)
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary When has it ever been any different?Registered User regular
    ToR was a great single player experience. Very engaging story, great companions, decent classes and combat if a bit skill bloated. Was not much of an MMO or something I could put a long term 15$ sub into though.

    I never bothered with TERA because of the hassle involved in finding out what I already know, lol Korean grind WoW clone, but I hear only good things about the depth of it's combat and the fact that it has stuff like politics in the endgame.

    GW2 is something I've been waiting 3 years to play, and having been in the BWE I feel mostly vindicated in my faith in ArenaNet to deliver on what they promised. It's not a Jesus MMO revolution or even a radical departure from what themepark MMOs are, but it does a lot of things right in PvE feeling more organic and PvP having more incentive and strategy and skill involved. It has room for improvement, but even as it is, it's a great game.

    Putting their highlights together would make a great game, probably the pinnacle of greatness that can be achieved by any themepark MMO or MMO in general, but it would require more man hours, sheer force of will, money and patience, not to mention risk, then currently exists in the game industry or may ever exist. SWTOR's full VA alone would make it untenable in the long term simply because of the time and money needed to fully VA new content updates. And the bar would always get higher with every new release, as it did for WoW.

    But men like us, like Gabe, can dream.

    2fbfH5V.png
  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    ToR was a great single player experience. Very engaging story, great companions, decent classes and combat if a bit skill bloated. Was not much of an MMO or something I could put a long term 15$ sub into though.
    That's the way I view TOR (again, as an outsider). I can enjoy my singleplayer 'be the hero' thing, and then there's MMO components attached as the secondary aspect of the game. It makes me think of the dev theory that Extra Credits brought up a month or two ago about how RPG elements to games work best as the secondary, supporting component. Like the Castlevania games as of late, and all that. The aspects that make an MMO what it is may work best if they're a supporting feature. Big groups for raids, all that. Unfortunately, one of the aspects if very much business driven, hooking people with grinding and addictiveness. So maybe that doesn't work out.

    "Ultima Online Pre-Trammel is the perfect example of why libertarians are full of shit."
    - @Ludious
    PA Lets Play Archive - Twitter - Blog (6/15/14)
  • WUAWUA Registered User regular
    Re: The post

    I'm sure Zombicide is neat and the people making it are swell, but seriously, screw zombies already. Sick. To. Death. Of. Zombies.

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