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[PA Comic] Friday, May 4, 2012 - Incredibility
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There's one I've found by an ex-LucasArts developer called "Starlight Inception", a spiritual successor to the X-Wing series. It's a space sim which hopes to bring back the genre:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/732317316/starlight-inceptiontm
But thanks to John Videogames, we're least likely to see more coverage of this one because it's legitimate and not a newsworthy scam.
Thanks for educating me.
I suspect you'd be the only one.
Personally, I think the fact this guy looks like a hobo and is clearly utterly unable to actually describe what he is selling makes far more of a difference. Frankly, any concept of race didn't even occur to me until you brought it up and I still can't see it. I in fact am not even sure what "Swarthy white male" is and it's not any race I've ever actually heard of.
In any case, I suggest you lighten up. I'm not sure if its still on, but there was a TV show called "Outsourced" that was about a call-center in India. I think it was on NBC. It played, near as I can tell from watching commercials, on several racial stereotypes. My wife was mortified when watching the commercials with me, feeling incredibly offended in general and for me in particular. Aside from thinking the commercials made the show look really bad, I didn't really care. A lot of comedy is rooted in some type of stereotype. How many TV shows play on the idea of the dim-witted husband or the controlling, neurotic wife? Or have a black character who is from "the hood" or playing up something similar? When I saw commercials for Outsourced, I didn't think to be offended... I just thought it was a show that I probably wouldn't find very funny. Who cares if its based on a racial stereotype? Comedy needs to have some baseline that we can recognize, otherwise there's no reason to think that the events depicted are unusual, and therefore funny. Stereotypes are a quick way to establish that baseline. Sometimes the stereotypes are about the type of person you happen to be. It really doesn't matter. The real humor comes from how the characters interact with the given stereotype.
...how is this not one of their own characters? Is John Videogames a real person? For some reason I doubt it.
...what stereotype, exactly, do you think they're perpetuating? The only word you've used to describe it is "swarthy," which I've only ever heard used by either late 19th century novelists or people ironically assuming the persona of a late 19th century novelist.
Not to jump to quickly on the "YOU are the one who is the racist" tactic, but it's a bit weird how his "swarthiness" seems to completely overshadow (in your mind) everything about the character, including what he's saying. Also that Middle Eastern, Mediterranean, and "ethnic" all apparently look the same to you.
Why would this comic be improved by instead using Randy Pinkwood, a character defined by (a) his inexplicably secure news anchoring job, and (b) his penchant for inserting thinly veiled double entendres rather roughly into the news? Neither of Randy's defining characteristics fits the comic at all.
Edit: You guys, I just realized who he reminds me of! Paul Christoforo.
Origin ID: jazzmess
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Nobody's saying that Gabe is a closet Neo-Nazi secretly churning out subliminal messages to poison our minds against the mud races. This psychologist dude is arguably a positive representation of these physical traits, and if you went through the entire archives you'd probably find several that fall on both sides of the spectrum. But original characters that look like Mr. Videogames don't show up very often in Penny Arcade comics, and when one does show up and neatly fits into a negative stereotype, it's not that hard to see why someone might be offended.
That's because race is a social construct. Traits associated with any given race can usually be found scattered among all the other races, and when you have multiple races in close geographical proximity, you tend to see a lot of the same physical characteristics popping up.
Guys, any time you see "big, dumb, guy with poor hygeine trying to steal from you" in a comic, it's not automatically a reference to some race. You need a little bit more to go on than that.
Origin ID: jazzmess
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But there have been several "dude who's trying to scam you" in Penny-Arcade strips, and I'd bet most of them have been white. Now that one of them looks vaguely middle-eastern, its stereotyping and harmful and hurtful? Not character variation? I think people need to relax.
Now, one thing you might reply is that this is totally OK: Penny Arcade isn't saying that hairy foreigners actually are all scammers. It's just (unconsciously?) playing off a common stereotype, and there's nothing wrong with that unless they're somehow going further and specifically trying to insult hairy swarthy dark skinned people or something like that.
You can certainly claim that, and I and Sage and Billy and maybe other people will be happy to have that discussion and talk about how it's not OK, but you have to start from there rather than arguing against something we haven't been claiming, I don't think.
Well, you'd all have a point, if the guys skin was dark. Thing is, his skin is pink. He doesn't look like a dark-skinned ethnicity, he looks like he's sunburned. It's not like Gabe doesn't know how to draw middle-eastern skin tone or something.
Origin ID: jazzmess
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Dur hur dur.
I thought he looked French, personally, what with the scruffy beard and pencil mustache.
i can kind of see the french thing
"Hey we are totally cool dutes from the industry. We are making an awesome game. Please, give us you money"
Wasteland 2 for example didn't have any details when it launched its kickstarter project. No plans how they are handling the money or the development - heck even a "guestimate" would be fine. Gee, they didn't even have mockup how the game is supposed to look (isometric RPG/view could be anything - is the camara fixed, rotateable, zoomable?). - Yes i know some of these projects started in some kind of "brainstorming phase" without much fixed features. But that makes it less desireable for me and other people to throw money at them.
If I would start a project I would include the nitty, gritty details upfront. Peple who don't want to read about these details can skip it.
Don't get me wrong I wish that the projects do well.
But there will be much rage if:
- one of the projects crashes and burns
- the developer realize they have to start a second kickstartet run
- the game doesn't turn out to be good or the wish fulfillment some people want it to be, or if features get cut.
Regarding Johnny Videogames - I think its partially based on this guy:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/120873716/your-world?ref=history
Jesus Christ that's awesome. A goldmine. My favorite quote so far:
"Are you tired of games that do not have everything you want? I know I am."
Allow me to clear this up for you; you are over sensitive to a psychotic degree
A better one:
Who isn't?
edit: We still need to make this happen:
Uh
When I think "con man" I think Nicholas Cage in Matchstick Men.
I'm Iranian (Middle Eastern) and as far as I'm concerned this is just some disheveled dude. I couldn't pin a race to it if I tried.
Carl was the first guy that came to my mind too. Never thought the guy was anything other that 'white' until I read this thread.
As a French man who has been mistaken for a Mediterranean man by a Mediterranean man I demand an apology and a hug that is slightly too long to be comfortable.
Thank you.
After reading online about some of the patterns in Disney villains over the years I better understand how American society has been trained to relate to and percieve me. It's great to not be alone here on tw threads. And thanks @Mare for your understanding as well.
Thank you all.
1) looks like a stereotypical con-man right out of a silent movie, and the point isn't that such stereotypes are valid or devoid of racism, but that they exist, they act as mythological archetypes, they scream "ooh it is the bad con-man of the movie", and that naive obviousness is what makes the joke work. Like a martian happening to be small and green with a big head and antennas. Or like a enlightened Bill Bailey appearing in front of jehova witnesses. The symbolism itself, because it is shared, and even though it may be ridicule and illegitimate, still functions enough fr the joke. You can laugh, just like you could laugh in a real case of a (even honest) person asking your trust while resembling too much to some popular stereotype of dishonesty - while simultaneously overcoming that first impression.
2) looks dishonest because his look is completely out-of-place in that context. As stereotypes go, that one is the opposite of the stereotype of the genious videogame inventor geek. He is covered with little "social identity flags" that hint at a very different background, history, and activity (and his anachronical style alone may play a big role in it). In reality, nothing technically prevents a software developper to wear a singlet, a mole and a tiny oiled moustache. It's just unlikely, especially when related to the origin of the videogame industry, and to the presentation standards in that field. And we are in a comic strip, where such looks are not random, and people tend to be caricatured as their official "identity looks", that is, you would expect a founder of computer gaming to look like a stereotyped programmer instead. So, it's not even the "con-man" stereotype that warns the reader of a scam, but the "obviously not a 1970s programmer" stereotype.
I don't see a big issue with that. You could have a strip about a humanitarian organisation, lead by a Fu-Manchu figure. The Fu-Manchu figure is a racist stereotype, out of a series of extremely racist and colonialist novels. But it's also recognised as a "bad guy" figure, so the joke would work. And would still work with the distance the readers would take from this caricature. It would recall an out-dated bad guy figure, use it as an "obvious bad guy" figure, without necessarily strenghtening it. Or strenghtening the idea that chinese are evil especially when they dress in mandarine robes.
But maybe I'm biased by the context, of Penny Arcade being mostly about intelligent readers and intelligent writers. On another website, I might have interpreted things differently...
Those oppressed minorities really have it made...
You mean Jafar?
Because before Jafar Disney villains were typically white women or you know cartoon animals.
And none of them were swarthy.
But please enlighten me on how Pete is a Muslim caricature whatever lunacy you read "online"
He has black hair and a pencil mustache, he's obviously a minority race, you swine!
Origin ID: jazzmess
Amazon Wishlist
1) You're right that the stereotype exists enough for a joke. I don't think stereotypes are always bad, but when they're racist ones like this one, I think they are bad, and that unless you're making a meta-joke about how the stereotype is itself ridiculous, it's racist to use the stereotype. For instance, if I make a joke in my comic about a greedy person, and just to drive the point home I make him Jewish (big nose etc.) I don't think this would be a good thing. So unless PA is making a meta-joke about how this scammer stereotype/mythical archetype is bullshit, then the joke is just straight up racist.
2) Are they making a meta-joke about how these sorts of people aren't actually scammers, and about how society is racist when it sees someone who looks like this and thinks "scammer?" No. PA is using this guy because he looks like a scammer. You're right that the fact that "stereotypical scammer" looks completely different from "stereotypical computer programmer" definitely makes it funnier, but at its heart, why was this non-programmer guy chosen rather than any of the millions of other people who look nothing like a stereotypical programmer? He was chosen because he's the stereotypical scammer, just like if I depicted a greedy person as the stereotypical greedy Jew, even if in the context he looks entirely different from who he's pretending to be, I'd be doing this solely in order to tap into the greedy Jew stereotype, and I don't think that's okay.
Is it okay to use a Fu-Manchu dude as short-hand for "obvious bad guy" in the same way that it's okay to use "hairy fat man with foreign facial features" as short-hand for "obvious scammer?" Well, I don't know. Is it okay to use "obvious Jew" as short-hand for "greedy," or "black guy with big lips and a slice of watermelon" as short-hand for whatever complex fucking character America has got attached to black guys, unless you're making some sort of commentary about how these stereotypes are bad? Where you fall on this question is where you ought to fall on the PA comic question. I for one think we've moved past the point where using "Jew" as shorthand for "greedy" is an OK basis for a joke, but if that works for you, then I guess you can be fine with the comic.
I would urge you not to be okay with it, though, because it's super racist. Jews aren't greedy, black men aren't like the stereotype of black men, swarthy foreigners aren't a bunch of scammers, Asian people barely even look like Fu Manchu, and so on. If "group X is Y" is the basis of your joke, and group X isn't Y, you have to ask yourself if the only reason "group X is Y" helps your joke is because it's racist to think group X is Y. Is it racist to think that swarthy foreigners are looking to rip you off, or that Jews just want money?
Let's walk this back a little. I'm not even sure what all this talk is about a "scam" is about.
If the guy weren't legitimate, then why would he be holding cards, dice, and an Atari 2600 joystick?
That's what I thought. I rest my case.
A list off the top of my head fails to enlighten:
two evil queens
bunch of sorceresses
a giant whale
an evil aunt
an evil stepmother
a wolf
a crazy woman with a dogskin fetish
Jafar, in a movie about Arabia (and say what you will about its depiction of the subject matter, I don't think a unique abundance of hair on the part of the villain was an issue)
some English guy
A Greek god who is clean shaven and also on fire
A Cajun person? I don't know I didn't see the frog movie.
a French priest
an octopus woman, I guess she's kind of a sorceress
A lion
Gaston, who I guess has chest hair?
Snake and a tiger, also maybe an orangutan? Is it the orangutan who's a swarthy villain?
I think there was a rat at some point
Oh yae and Pete, forgot about him.
I think we can take from this that Disney isn't a huge fan of assertive women, but I'm not getting a real 'swarthy' vibe.
edit: bleh, you already changed it.
Traits that one can associate with ones heritage, homeland, genetic journey or ethnicity are more than skin deep. This is not a black white issue or even a color issue at all.
Thank you for your ability to think freely. I hope you have not been singled out as a side effect of participating in this discussion.