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[Diablo 3] Diablo walks the Earth in 5 days. Single digits omg

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Posts

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    Topia wrote: »
    Frozenzen wrote: »
    Enrage is a game mechanic there to curb certain strategies that make the game stale.

    As WoW is an MMO, it sort of makes sense. D3 is not, you should be able to play how YOU want, unless of course they lie and the game isn't designed to be playable single player in every regard. Want to play with "stale" gimmicky builds? You should be allowed, at all times.

    Is there a difference between being "allowed" to play your chosen style and that style being equally effective with every other style? Because if you're holding out for the latter, I think you'll be waiting a long time for the game that satisfies you.

  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    I also think that they want Inferno to be the ultimate challenge for Non-hardcore players, killing them a whole bunch. If that means that it's not really possible for Hardcore, oh well.

    sig.gifSteam | D3: captaink#1674 | 3DS: 2466-1914-7679
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    Topia wrote: »
    darklite_x wrote: »
    I never thought enrage timers were terrible in WoW, but I feel like it's not something that has a place in Diablo. I don't like the idea of a 'gear check' or 'gear gating' in Diablo. Like in D2, if I go up against Duriel at level 20 with decent gear I can eventually wear him down you know, but if I had to grind out level 30 or farm for a full set of green gear at level 20 to beat duriel then I really doubt I would have kept playing D2. It's the idea that characters will be gated based on gear rather than skill or, in some cases ingenuity or patience. If someone wants to kite Superbad Demonbro for 20 minutes just to whittle down 1% every 30 seconds or something then why shouldn't they have that option? All I'm saying is that it doesn't really seem like a mechanic that belongs in a Diablo game.


    Dingdingding, if the enrage timers are strong enough that it turns the fight into a gear check? Worst design decision D3 has made. I have been slightly disappointed by decisions before, but this is gonna stick with me, I think.

    If by "gear check" you mean "you will die if your gear sucks" then yes, that's exactly what's going to happen, with or without enrage timers. That's because unlike D2 there aren't cheap strategies like TP abuse and potion spam to safely wear down enemies that are too strong for you. Duriel was a badly designed encounter because he was simply way too strong for where he is in the game. In D3 though you can't even portal out of boss rooms, either he dies or you die. I think this is much preferable to D2 where the only risk of dying was if a monster could instagib you before you could click TP.

  • TopiaTopia Registered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    Topia wrote: »
    darklite_x wrote: »
    I never thought enrage timers were terrible in WoW, but I feel like it's not something that has a place in Diablo. I don't like the idea of a 'gear check' or 'gear gating' in Diablo. Like in D2, if I go up against Duriel at level 20 with decent gear I can eventually wear him down you know, but if I had to grind out level 30 or farm for a full set of green gear at level 20 to beat duriel then I really doubt I would have kept playing D2. It's the idea that characters will be gated based on gear rather than skill or, in some cases ingenuity or patience. If someone wants to kite Superbad Demonbro for 20 minutes just to whittle down 1% every 30 seconds or something then why shouldn't they have that option? All I'm saying is that it doesn't really seem like a mechanic that belongs in a Diablo game.


    Dingdingding, if the enrage timers are strong enough that it turns the fight into a gear check? Worst design decision D3 has made. I have been slightly disappointed by decisions before, but this is gonna stick with me, I think.

    If by "gear check" you mean "you will die if your gear sucks" then yes, that's exactly what's going to happen, with or without enrage timers. That's because unlike D2 there aren't cheap strategies like TP abuse and potion spam to safely wear down enemies that are too strong for you. Duriel was a badly designed encounter because he was simply way too strong for where he is in the game. In D3 though you can't even portal out of boss rooms, either he dies or you die. I think this is much preferable to D2 where the only risk of dying was if a monster could instagib you before you could click TP.

    I mean, in terms of having to grind out gear to do better. In D2, grinding gear helped, but I could beat the whole game just by wearing what drops naturally, without doing mf runs to get gear in NM.

    As for builds, don't worry I hate the gimmicky builds, but I still think its wrong that certain builds, which should be viable on paper, are likely going to be forced out, just because. I mean, of course there are *bad* builds, but those will be shit no matter what difficulty. But if I can use a build in Hell, I feel like the same build should be viable in Inferno, assuming I'm not a baddie and know how to play in inferno properly (I probably don't).

  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    I dunno, I guess maybe I'm coming around, Zek. Maybe we're wrong? Maybe players should be allowed to play any build they want in the hardest difficulty, and maybe they should be able to succeed (no, dominate!) regardless of party composition. Maybe players should be able to slowly plink away at tough enemies and TP out or run away if it gets too close or lands a hit.

    ^ lol.

    I'm just hoping Inferno's as hard as they say it is. There have been plenty of games where the developer's said, "Oh, this is so difficult that nobody here at the studio can do it", and the community has it beat within an hour of release. I'm just hoping Inferno's different than that, and that it's actually a real ball-busting experience, where min/maxing is encouraged, if not required.

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  • SteevLSteevL What can I do for you? Registered User regular
    I finally beat Diablo II! Only took me 8 years. I did not find the Baal fight very fun at all, but then again I was soloing everything.

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    You can beat the game on normal to hell, so no worries even if enrange timers are implemented in the worst way possible. If it's in Inferno and you can't do it it's by design and there we have it. "Get better gear" is a totally valid solution to anythng in Diablo, but especially in Inferno. I sure hope it's fun, but really, they can't screw up a way to kill us that much compared to the other ways we'll supposedly die anyway.

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    Topia wrote: »
    You play diablo with the wrong folks, my friend.

    I think sometimes we (and by "we", I mean basically everyone here) forget that we're not "normal" players. We're the kind of people who not only play video games, but also read comics about video games, and post in online forums about video games to discuss strategy and the development process. Most folks aren't like us. I play with a lot of "normal" people, who don't take Diablo (or any game, or gaming in general, for that matter) as seriously as I (we) do.

    These people make up the vast majority of the playerbase. And they're not really interested in playing Hell, let alone Inferno. It's just frustrating to them.

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  • TopiaTopia Registered User regular
    It seems strange to me that some people actually only played Diablo 2 on normal, or maybe nightmare. To me it's not "difficulty level" it's actually just the next level. Each stage (act/difficulty) brings about new challenges that will grow your play-style, like many games do as you progress through levels.

    I can see the argument for inferno, being Hell ending at level 60, and Inferno only being level 60, that is a high difficulty, moreso.

  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    You know what I find odd about the last few pages.

    Every time Hardcore has come up in this thread, most of those into it have waxed poetic about the challenge and the risk and the massive rewards (in prestige alone).

    Now the word is that it takes gigantic, coconut sized brass balls to complete Inferno and suddenly it's an issue?

    Shouldn't those same people want an inferno that's so absurdly difficult that the first person/team to finish it Hardcore are renowned as gods among men and women? People want to talk shit about how SC ain't shit, but suddenly the idea that Hardcore may in fact kill off some characters is a bad thing?

    Like, I get that it may well be different people expressing different desires, and in a game and fanbase as broad as Diablo's, that's to be expected, but it is a serious change of pace from our previous discussions on the matter.

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  • TopiaTopia Registered User regular
    I think the issue people have with HC + Enrage is I have a strong feeling we're not gonna have DBM (deadly boss mods) in D3 telling the HC players when enrage will happen. Now, these players could be amazing, taking 1 hit rarely, and playing a smart steady attacking style, but they lose track of time and *boom* their hard work is over, without them being able to do anything about it.

  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    And if that's the case, then they might have something to complain about.

    But until we actually know that "at X minutes the boss hits for "FUCK YOU, YOU DIE", beat them in less than that" it's a lot of sound and fury based on assumptions built on what is practically hearsay.

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  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    yeah, have any details beyond "there are enrage timers" been given? Because I'm hearing a lot of "it's probably going to be this thing I hate" and "I have a strong feeling that X" about an end-game mechanic for a game that hasn't come out yet, most of whose basic gameplay mechanics are still being speculated about.

  • FireflashFireflash Montreal, QCRegistered User regular
    Chen wrote: »
    Can't have complaining in Blizzard threads, can we?

    I'll bet money that the four defensive Monk party won't even be viable in Hell, much less Inferno. Just too little damage output for you to survive mobs of enchanted enemies and champions. This irrational fear of heal stacking or whatever ruining the game is quite frankly laughable.


    Yes. Anyone that disagrees with your opinions is clearly just blindly defending Blizzard. It's impossible that they just disagree with your opinions. IMPOSSIBLE.

    Maybe you should stop playing the victim whenever anyone disagrees with you on something. It's not one side vs the other it's people with different opinions.

    PSN / XBL: PatParadize
  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    Isn't it kinda silly to complain about something that may/may not be a bad thing that only affects 1/8th of the game? You have Normal/Nightmare/Hell/Inferno and then do it all again on Hardcore. These enrage timers are only a problem at the very end of hardcore, just on inferno. Why is this such a big deal? I mean, inferno wasn't even available in D1 or D2. Why does a new difficulty having a new thing to make it more difficult cause all of this butthurt? Sounds like people bitching because they don't like change.

  • SkabSkab Registered User regular
    milk ducks wrote: »
    Let's be honest here, guys: how many people are going to actually play Inferno mode? I mean, be serious. I don't know a lot of people, personally, who've completed Hell.

    Quite a few of us actually. You clearly have never gone into the Diablo 2 thread.
    Chen wrote: »
    Can't have complaining in Blizzard threads, can we?

    I'll bet money that the four defensive Monk party won't even be viable in Hell, much less Inferno. Just too little damage output for you to survive mobs of enchanted enemies and champions. This irrational fear of heal stacking or whatever ruining the game is quite frankly laughable.

    As are your wild assumptions.

    Why don't you guys wait till the game is out before you start freaking out about these timers?

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  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    Isn't it kinda silly to complain about something that may/may not be a bad thing that only affects 1/8th of the game? You have Normal/Nightmare/Hell/Inferno and then do it all again on Hardcore. These enrage timers are only a problem at the very end of hardcore, just on inferno. Why is this such a big deal? I mean, inferno wasn't even available in D1 or D2. Why does a new difficulty having a new thing to make it more difficult cause all of this butthurt? Sounds like people bitching because they don't like change.

    Also complaining about WoW-style mechanics being applied to D2-style gameplay. Neither of which has been shown to be the case.

  • BhaalenBhaalen Registered User
    O......M.....G. Those strategy guide monster stats + enrage timers! I'm so happy right now, I can hardly tell I just had a wisdom tooth extraction. Jay Wilson is becoming one of my favorite people on the planet.

    Be careful. Your productivity will drop if you click this link.
  • ChenChen Registered User regular
    Fireflash wrote: »
    Chen wrote: »
    Can't have complaining in Blizzard threads, can we?

    I'll bet money that the four defensive Monk party won't even be viable in Hell, much less Inferno. Just too little damage output for you to survive mobs of enchanted enemies and champions. This irrational fear of heal stacking or whatever ruining the game is quite frankly laughable.


    Yes. Anyone that disagrees with your opinions is clearly just blindly defending Blizzard. It's impossible that they just disagree with your opinions. IMPOSSIBLE.

    Maybe you should stop playing the victim whenever anyone disagrees with you on something. It's not one side vs the other it's people with different opinions.

    So you think a pure defensive build can trivialize the game without a feature such as enrage to keep them in check? Because that's one of the arguments that's thrown around here. Not the billion health that enemies have, nor the large variety of enhancements and abilities they can spawn with. Naw, man, gotta have these enraging hormones to keep it from being stale and keep those dirty monks with a million health regenerations from dominating.

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  • FireflashFireflash Montreal, QCRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    No. But some mechanics will make battles more difficult for certain types of builds. That's not limited to enrage and it should be expected. Should I complain that fire immune monsters are ruining my chances of having a 100% viable "Fire spells only" build?

    And we don't even know how the enrage will work yet.Nowhere did they say that its the kind of enrage where the fight become impossible to win like it is in a lot of MMOs. In a MMO when a monster attacks you there's nothing you can do about it. It's practically a turn based game with dicerolls. In a twitch game like diablo no matter how hard monsters hit you can still dodge them and run around.

    Fireflash on
    PSN / XBL: PatParadize
  • TopiaTopia Registered User regular
    I would just like to point out my caveat about enrage timers, because a lot of you got sarcastically aggressive when I complained about them:
    Dingdingding, if the enrage timers are strong enough that it turns the fight into a gear check? Worst design decision D3 has made. I have been slightly disappointed by decisions before, but this is gonna stick with me, I think.

    This basically means enrage timers that one-shot you when they trigger.

    I agree with those of you who say "lets wait and see" but, really, come on whats the point of an enrage timer that only makes them a little bit stronger? Basically it turns into phase 2 of the fight where it's a bit harder, but still do-able? That, to be quite frank, a pointless enrage timer. At least one-shot kill enrage timers have a specific function - to limit the time you have to fight.

  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    There are other options, such as it getting progressively worse. It doesn't have to be binary "doable/you get F'd in the A". It could be a spectrum of progressively nastier striking, giving players the option to choose between trying to survive for those last few seconds/percentage points, or to retreat if possible.

    Seems like it could be a tough tactical choice, especially on Hardcore, if that were the case. If the mob is down to a fraction of its life, but you are likely seconds from getting your clock cleaned, do you stay in and hope for the best, or flee? This is inferno, phat loot is all but guaranteed, but it's no good if you're dead...

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  • MMAgChMMAgCh remember tomorrow. Registered User regular
    Fireflash wrote: »
    In a twitch game like diablo no matter how hard monsters hit you can still dodge them and run around.
    Except Blizzard specifically don't want people dodging monster attacks easily and have taken steps to make it much harder than it used to be. It's still possible, of course, but it looks like you'll need really bloody good timing/reflexes to pull it off consistently. Disengaging from combat might be a risky endeavour from the looks of it.

  • BasilBasil Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Dodging? Teleport. Leap. Ninja Smoke. That other Leap. The thingy wot makes everything slow. Those other thingies wot make everything slow the Demon Hunter has lots of. Whatever Monks do. Maybe Monks can't dodge, I dunno. Counter to their religion or something. The black guys have zombie dogs, I guess. Witches. Doctors. Doctors of Witches. Who needs to dodge when you have zombie dogs.

    Alls I'm saying is that there are spiders crawling under my skin.

    Basil on
  • ScosglenScosglen Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    How about we actually wait till we can play it and see first-hand if enrage timers are literally the worst thing ever.

    We know nothing about how it's implemented, and inferno-level gameplay at this point is essentially an abstract concept to anyone not employed by Blizzard. It is more than a little presumptuous to make such pronouncements about how it will effect things at this early hour.

    Scosglen on
  • BasilBasil Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    It will be so bad.

    The worst.

    Ever.

    Basil on
  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    Basil wrote: »
    It will be so bad.

    The worst.

    Ever.

    Worse than Hell.

  • DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    You know what enrage timers do possibly? Make it so bots who follow a teleport/move skill path while slowly widdling down a boss can't be used.

    They also present a new mechanic to adjust to. We dont know if the enrage is a hard one(5000% health and damage), or a soft (boss hits 30%, he does double damage now).

    DiannaoChong on
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  • BullioBullio Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Gear check enrage timers always seemed like lazy design to me. I doubt encountering them in D3 will change that opinion. Here's hoping they're not that type of enrage timer. Are they limited solely to Inferno?

    If Inferno were difficult because of "lawl ENGAGENRAGE!!!" then I think people would be justified in calling them out on lazy design, but it sounds like Inferno is going to be a huge pain to get through even before encountering an enrage timer.

    Bullio on
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  • FrozenzenFrozenzen Registered User regular
    It seems like enrage timers are just supposed to be the cherry on top of the general asshattery inferno seems to be tuned to be at launch.

    Mind you, I think having it hilariously overtuned is the right thing to do, and I hope I reach it before they change it to a more doable state :P.

    SC2EU/US: Frozenzen.437 Steam: Frozenzen
  • SkabSkab Registered User regular
    We also have enraged timers, where if you don’t kill the monsters in a certain amount of time, they enrage and then they do massive damage.

    is pretty much all we know.

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  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    I like the idea of inferno being so hard that it might take even the most diehard player months/years to get through. And from the sounds of it it looks like they're trying to do that in all ways, not just one or two. So what if your inferno level hardcore character gets kill. Even if it's by a cheap method, inferno is suppose to be cheap. It's suppose to be the hardest thing the game has to offer. And maybe if getting oneshotted and losing your character doesn't sound like your bag you shouldn't play inferno level hardcore characters.

    From everything they've said inferno is suppose to be the craziest hard thing ever. It's optional. It's not something you need to play. It wasn't in the other games. It's a brick wall that you have to break down slowly and methodically.

  • SkabSkab Registered User regular
    Skab wrote: »
    We also have enraged timers, where if you don’t kill the monsters in a certain amount of time, they enrage and then they do massive damage.

    is pretty much all we know.
    Basil wrote: »
    Dodging? Teleport. Leap. Ninja Smoke. That other Leap. The thingy wot makes everything slow. Those other thingies wot make everything slow the Demon Hunter has lots of. Whatever Monks do. Maybe Monks can't dodge, I dunno. Counter to their religion or something. The black guys have zombie dogs, I guess. Witches. Doctors. Doctors of Witches. Who needs to dodge when you have zombie dogs.

    Alls I'm saying is that there are spiders crawling under my skin.

    WDs have spirit walk!

    steam_sig.png
  • BasilBasil Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Oh yeah, Spirit Walk! I forgot that I saw it in the skill lineup. I wanna see that one in motion.

    My raiderbot crew has spread out nicely between the classes. Barbie, Monk, Doc/Wizzie and I'm the only one who wants to play a Demon Hunter. Should be good times.

    Basil on
  • tehjestertehjester Tampa, FlRegistered User regular
    Basil wrote: »
    It will be so bad.

    The worst.

    Ever.

    Safety word bad? Personally, I'm excited for Inferno. Me thinks it's going to be a great challenge. But then again I'm a glutton for pain

    PSN: JesterKing13 LoL: Nightskream -> "Honey Pantheon don't give a fuck"
  • AzreusAzreus Registered User
    Prediction: By June 15 we will see "Infrno is stpid fix nao" threads on Bnet. Actually nevermind, they're already there.

  • ArkadyArkady Registered User regular
    @Topia; Here is the thing. Inferno is not being designed to be completed. Inferno is being designed as the giant fuck you to the min/maxing crowd that sits at the top of the Diablo food chain that said crowd wants. It is a direct challenge! "Alright you assholes, try THIS on for size! Oh look at that your fancy max dps barbarian just got 1-shot by a baby quill beast I guess it's back to the drawing board for you!" It is for literally 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% to enjoy if WoW's hard mode raid completion numbers are anything to go by. The majority of gimmick builds should be able to get through hell eventually. But not inferno. Inferno is where you bring your A game. Inferno is where you take a gimmick build to either die or become king of the internet when you actually manage to clear the damn thing with your yell barb or whatever nonsense you are running. But it is absolutely not meant to be completed by anyone and everyone.

    In that sense, enrage timers are just another hurdle to overcome, in addition to properly balancing offense, defense, and MF. Because the reality is that making all skill and rune combinations equal is basically impossible, and if all of them were inferno viable then inferno would simply not be hard enough. But then again, one my favorite games of this console generation is Dark Souls, so maybe I am biased.

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    LoL: failboattootoot
  • TopiaTopia Registered User regular
    I dunno, maybe I just think enrage timers are bad design by default. There are other ways to accomplish what everyone is saying enrage timers are trying to accomplish. Enrage timers in and of themselves are gimmicky. I think that's my major issue. They're a cop-out compared to what good design could be in place to make inferno that fuck-you-and-your-family level of hard.

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    What makes them "gimmicky"/bad-design/cop-out/not good design? Why do those words apply to enrage timers and none of the other rumored Inferno mechanics?

  • ChenChen Registered User regular
    They're not random? There could be different criteria depending on the enemy and I assume there won't be a timer to let you know when to retreat. Random explosions equal many deaths, which is exciting and adrenaline-pumping I suppose.

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This discussion has been closed.