Upside: If there's one team we know will make the correct decisions for the franchise down the road and will not be bad or mediocre for long, it's Utah.
There's always clinging to false rumors that Phil Jackson is going to come back to coaching? (Works for delusional Knicks fans.)
But how far fetched is that really? I can imagine Jackson giving it one more go with the Knicks. He was part of the Knicks only 2 titles and if Dolan just buries him under a shit ton of money, I can see him coming back to coaching. Of course - provided his health holds up.
Yeah, I don't know if Hornacek would be a good or bad thing, but he's an assistant coach now and at least I recognize the name, while Corbin came seemingly out of nowhere.
Well, he was an assistant under Sloan for 7 years before taking over - so he didn't come that far out of nowhere. But I get the name recognition thing.
Shouldn't Jeff van Gundy be ready to coach again? What about Larry Brown? Mike Fratello? Paul Silas (I think I read he is out in Charlotte)? I can also see Paul Bearer ... err, the other van Gundy being fired in Orlando in the off season, either to appease Howard to stay or as a "Ok, if Howard is gone, we might as well clean house" kinda move. I'd throw in Hubie Brown - but the dude is closing in on 80, I doubt he'll ever coach again.
That organisation has been pretty stable the past few decades, so it isn't like going to Charlotte to coach for Michael Jordan or something like that. Which in turn makes me believe they will be able to attract a good coach, if they fire Corbin.
JVG apparently really likes doing TV, and Larry Brown's coaching SMU at least for a couple years. Stan van Gundy is out of orlando after this year, but he'll land somewhere.
I think we've seen the last of phil jackson, honestly. It seems like if he still wanted to coach he'd have just stayed in LA. I'm sure he loves the knicks and all but I'm not sure why he'd want to coach there even if healthy.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
also for all of jordan's insane desire or whatever, he didn't win his first title until he was 28 (though obviously he hadn't been in the league as long as lebron at that point), having spent the first few years of his career being 'the guy' on some fairly awful bulls teams.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I think we've seen the last of phil jackson, honestly. It seems like if he still wanted to coach he'd have just stayed in LA. I'm sure he loves the knicks and all but I'm not sure why he'd want to coach there even if healthy.
Not saying Phil's gonna come back, but he didn't leave the Lakers just because he was tired of basketball or something.
Phil was/is Jeanie Buss' boyfriend, and Jeanie has been in a power struggle with Jim Buss to take over the Lakers after Jerry Buss retires or passes. Even though Jim and Jeanie are siblings, they don't get along - they don't even have a professional relationship.
The Phil/Jeanie vs Jim battle has been going on for a while now. It was a driving force behind Kobe calling the Lakers front office "a joke" back in 2007, and demanding a trade. Kurt Rambis was expected to take over as Head Coach after Phil, but he sided with Phil/Jeanie in the feud - that's why he was sent off and ended up in Minnesota. It's also why Brian Shaw, the next heir apparent (after Rambis left) to take over for Phil, wasn't hired to replace Phil.
Following Phil's departure, Jim cleaned house in the Lakers front office. The entire scouting department was let go, and replaced with people loyal to Jim (including making his favorite bartender a scout).
So for now, it appears Jim has won the power struggle. Phil is gone, Rambis is gone, Shaw is gone, and Jeanie is in exile.
also for all of jordan's insane desire or whatever, he didn't win his first title until he was 28 (though obviously he hadn't been in the league as long as lebron at that point), having spent the first few years of his career being 'the guy' on some fairly awful bulls teams.
Yeah, but ask yourself this. If you switch Jordan with James, would the Bulls still win the championship in 1991 and would the Heat still lose last years finals (and forget for a moment that the switch wouldn't work, because James plays the same position as Pippen and Jordan/Wade play the same position)?
Yes, Jordan hat shitty teammates for the first few years of his career. But in James case it was LeBron who is the problem, not shitty teammates. That is why I mentioned Jordans desire to win, because I seriously doubt a Jordan in his prime, with Wade and Bosh as his team mates would have lost to the Mavericks last year.
James is gun shy when it matters and defers too much to his team mates.
It was pretty disappointing how Michael Jordan won those championships, though, leaving the Bulls to team up with two other stars in Patrick Ewing and Charles Barkley.
And then as his athleticism degraded, Michael Jordan would just bully his way into the paint using his off hand or drive and flail into defenders and look expectantly at the baseline official, waiting for the whistle to blow. It was embarrassing to watch.
If Jordan had ever spent thousands of hours in the gym perfecting a go-to move that required some technique, like a fadeaway jumper, then he might have actually reached his potential, instead of just being an overhyped athletic freak with no scoring skill set. Sadly, we're only left to wonder what might have been.
Seriously though, I'm not even sure LeBron James is in the NBAs top 20 players of all time, let alone top 5 or top 10. Yet for some reason, if James has a good game every once in a while against a bad team, he is instantly put in the conversation with the greatest player of all time, who had great games every game. This is the nature of starfucking sports punditry.
So check this out, Bill Simmons has LeBron James at #20 in his book, and I still think that's way too generous.
These are his other rankings (spoilered for length):
Level 1
96. Tom Chambers
95. Jo Jo White
94. Jack Twyman
93. Kevin Johnson
92. Bob Lanier
91. Dwight Howard
90. Chris Paul
89. Shawn Kemp
88. Gail Goodrich
87. Connie Hawkins
86. Arvydas Sabonis
85. Robert Horry
84. Cliff Hagan
83. Vince Carter
82. Chris Mullin
81. Dave Bing
80. Bailey Howell
79. Bobby Dandridge
78. Paul Westphal
77. Dan Issel
76. Artis Gilmore
75. Tracy McGrady
74. Joe Dumars
73. Sidney Moncrief
72. Chris Webber
71. Lenny Wilkens
70. David Thompson
69. Dennis Rodman
68. Pete Maravich
67. Earl Monroe
66. Adrian Dantley
65. Alex English
64. Jerry Lucas
63. Ray Allen
62. Reggie Miller
Level 2
61. Bob McAdoo
60. Nate Archibald
59. Robert Parish
58. Bernard King
57. Tommy Heinsohn
56. Paul Arizin
55. Dominique Wilkins
54. Paul Pierce
53. Dwayne Wade
52. Dennis Johnson
51. Bill Sharman
50. Dolph Schayes
49. Elvin Hayes
48. James Worthy
47. Billy Cunningham
46. Hal Greer
45. Dave DeBusschere
44. Nate Thurmond
43. Clyde Drexler
42. Jason Kidd
41. Wes Unseld
40. Gary Payton
39. Patrick Ewing
38. Steve Nash
37. Dirk Nowitzki
Level 3
36. George Mikan
35. Kevin McHale
34. George Gervin
33. Sam Jones
32. Walt Frazier
31. Dave Cowens
30. Willis Reed
29. Allen Iverson
28. David Robinson
27. Bill Walton
26. Rick Barry
25. John Stockton
Level 4
24. Scottie Pippen
23. Isiah Thomas
22. Kevin Garnett
21. Bob Cousy
20. LeBron James
19. Charles Barkley
18. Karl Malone
17. Bob Pettit
16. Julius Erving
15. Kobe Bryant
14. Elgin Baylor
13. John Havlicek
The Pantheon
12. Moses Malone
11. Shaquille O’Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Oscar Robertson
8. Jerry West
7. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
4. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
1. Michael Jordan
It's a little dated and doesn't account for Dirk's amazing year last season. Evidently Dirk is in his top 25 now. And LeBron may have dropped after showing such playoff "excellence" last season as well. That would at least account for some inconsistencies in the list. For instance, even Scottie Pippen (#24) was arguably better than LeBron James (#20).
And then of course, as you go numerically higher on the list (i.e. closer to #96, not closer to #1) it gets increasingly debatable and nitpicking. "Why is Robert Horry even on the list? You might as well add Mario Elie while you're at it." "Why is Joe Dumars ranked higher than sharpshooting dream teamer, Chris Mullen?" "Chris Paul at just #90, really?" These kinds of pedantic things.
Just thought you guys would be interested, if you haven't seen Simmons' list already.
Last year is the only year you can argue that Lebron was the problem. Before that, the best player he ever played with (at the time they were Lebron's teammate) was Mo Williams. MoWill is a 6th man-caliber player, not an MVP-caliber player like Pippen was.
And Jordan himself was a major part of the reason he had shitty teammates. Whenever Chicago would get a good young prospect, Jordan would take it upon himself to mentally destroy them - in practice, in the press, however he could. He did it with Brad Sellers and Dennis Hopson, and he tried to do it with Pippen and Horace Grant. And then he most famously did it with Kwame Brown in Washington.
Last year is the only year you can argue that Lebron was the problem.
This is hardly praiseworthy. It's generally expected that great players will NOT be the obstacle standing in the way of a team's success. Also, don't forget James' infamous series quit against the Celtics during a prior season.
Before that, the best player he ever played with (at the time they were Lebron's teammate) was Mo Williams. MoWill is a 6th man-caliber player, not an MVP-caliber player like Pippen was.
*shrug* James played with Old Shaq (aka Optimus Past-his-Prime). Shaq was still dining out on his reputation as a bit of a kingmaker after giving Wade what Simmons has called a "footnote title" of his own. Was even an old, slow Shaq better than Mo Williams? Yeah, probably.
And Jordan himself was a major part of the reason he had shitty teammates. Whenever Chicago would get a good young prospect, Jordan would take it upon himself to mentally destroy them - in practice, in the press, however he could. He did it with Brad Sellers and Dennis Hopson, and he tried to do it with Pippen and Horace Grant. And then he most famously did it with Kwame Brown in Washington.
Have you read The Jordan Rules? If you do, you will conclude that
1.) Michael Jordan was an incredible asshole
and
2.) Michael Jordan was a pathologically competitive, obsessive person in anything he ever did. It was a singular mindset that netted him good things (championships) and bad things (gambling addictions) alike.
LeBron James is just not programmed that way. He doesn't want to be the best, he just wants ESPN pundits to describe him as the best currently playing.
So while prime Michael Jordan is missing his daughter's birthday, shooting jumpers in a Chicago practice facility until 2 A.M. because he went 9 for 30 against the Pistons the night before, prime LeBron James is off fucking around in a South Beach night club.
I don't fault the man. In fact, I even understand where he's coming from. Hard things are hard. Difficult things are difficult.
And then of course, as you go numerically higher on the list (i.e. closer to #96, not closer to #1) it gets increasingly debatable and nitpicking. "Why is Robert Horry even on the list? You might as well add Mario Elie while you're at it." "Why is Joe Dumars ranked higher than sharpshooting dream teamer, Chris Mullen?" "Chris Paul at just #90, really?" These kinds of pedantic things.
Same goes for Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady - both ranked higher than Paul, btw! If he did the list now, Paul would be way higher and Carter and McGrady wouldn't be on it. When all is said and done, Paul will be somewhere in the top 20 I imagine.
LeBron James is just not programmed that way. He doesn't want to be the best, he just wants ESPN pundits to describe him as the best currently playing.
Shitty team mates aside - this is the ONLY thing I am arguing when comparing Jordan and James.
I mean, do you guys remember the cleveland team lebron carried to the finals? Here was the rest of the starting five in 06-07 Larry Huges, Sasha Pavlovic, Drew Gooden, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. In 08-09 (when they lost in the conference finals to the magic) they started Ilgauskas, Ben Wallace, Delonte West, and Mo Williams. With the possible exceptions of Williams (and Andersen Varejao), these guys are all career backups (or in the case of Wallace, in hilarious decline by the time he got to cleveland.)
Statistically he has authored a bunch of the best seasons in recent memory and is the only player in recent years to seriously challenge Jordan's all-time PER mark (and was even on pace to break it for a chunk of this season.) His physical talents are obvious; implying a guy who has averaged 27+ PPG for the last six seasons while shooting near or above .500 from the field doesn't have a 'scoring skill set' is just unbelievably dumb. He hasn't really developed a post game, but so what? None of the great wing players ever developed a serious post game until age or injury forced it on them.
I don't really care where he falls on a 'greatest player ever' list because 'greatness' is a completely subjective quality that we generally don't even attempt to apply consistently. A large part of Jordan's 'greatness' is the result of him being one of the most marketable people in history. By practically any measure you want to use, James has been one of the best 2-3 players in the league every year except his rookie year (if not the outright best.)
People knock Lebron for not being 'clutch' (except when he is), for not having 'heart' (whatever that means) and for handling his exit from cleveland in basically the worst way possible (fair enough.) I don't find any of those criticisms particularly compelling.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Last year is the only year you can argue that Lebron was the problem.
This is hardly praiseworthy. It's generally expected that great players will NOT be the obstacle standing in the way of a team's success. Also, don't forget James' infamous series quit against the Celtics during a prior season.
The "infamous quit" was largely a creation by Lebron-haters in the media.
Lebron had a 27/19/10 triple-double in the final game of that series vs BOS. That's a career-high in rebounds, in a game where he supposedly quit. That doesn't even make sense - rebounds are one of the most effort-based stats kept in the NBA. After the loss, Lebron was criticized for trying to do too much, with critics pointing to his 9 TO as evidence.
Before that, the best player he ever played with (at the time they were Lebron's teammate) was Mo Williams. MoWill is a 6th man-caliber player, not an MVP-caliber player like Pippen was.
*shrug* James played with Old Shaq (aka Optimus Past-his-Prime). Shaq was still dining out on his reputation as a bit of a kingmaker after giving Wade what Simmons has called a "footnote title" of his own. Was even an old, slow Shaq better than Mo Williams? Yeah, probably.
I think Cavs Mo was better than Cavs Shaq. Cavs Shaq sucked. He'd basically used up the last of his reserves being force fed the ball by Terry Porter in Phoenix, and was drained by the time he got to PHX.
Either way, neither of them is better than a prime Grant, let alone a prime Pippen.
So while prime Michael Jordan is missing his daughter's birthday, shooting jumpers in a Chicago practice facility until 2 A.M. because he went 9 for 30 against the Pistons the night before, prime LeBron James is off fucking around in a South Beach night club.
Nah, Jordan was probably gambling in a casino until 2am during the middle of a playoff series.
Both guys' games are testament to hours put in at the gym, but Jordan wasn't some basketball-obsessed robot (that would be Kobe).
Lebron has a lot more physical gifts to work with than Jordan. In fact, the only reason the discussion even exists is because Lebron SHOULD be able to be better than MJ because of his physical attributes. But he hasnt. He hasn't lived up to his potential. Its a lot like how Dwight Howard should be a ton better than he is. Both are still amazing players, but neither are as good as they could be. Meanwhile MJ transcended his physical gifts (which were obviously numerous).
Whether or not its true, Lebron comes off as feeling entitled to greatness, where MJ earned it. It leaves the impression that Lebron could earn it, but he just isnt trying hard enough.
Well, looks like Joakim's ankle will keep him out of at least game 4. At least it was more of a freak injury than something that could be blamed on the compressed schedule. Bah.
And LeBron says the champion shouldn't have an *. Well of course he'd say that.
I'm always entertained when we talk about these really good players not "living up to their potential."
Especially when they have likely over a decade left to play.
LeBron James will not play in the league for 18 seasons total, no. In fact, he's already been in the league for 8 seasons and has logged over 36,000 minutes.
For the sake of comparison, Michael Jordan played about 45,000 minutes in his Bulls career.
Nothing says "This team probably doesn't belong in the playoffs" like their having Big Baby take and miss their clutch, game-deciding jumper in the closing seconds.
Although it was kind of amusing to see him chuck and heave his kid around like some kind of post-game interview prop.
OKC v. DAL
I'm relieved that the Mavs were swept in the first round, because it will finally remove all doubt in Marc Cuban's mind about whether or not they need to retool their roster and build again around Dirk's last two contract years.
There's been strong Deron Williams to Dallas talk for months now, so it seems like it might happen. And now there's talk that JET won't be resigned, either, which is sort of good news because it means that the Mavs won't be giving Terry the $10 million(!) he wanted and will have that much more cap flexibility this summer.
As far as OKC goes, Westbrook is hard to watch, but Harden is fun to watch, so it's kind of a push. I wouldn't mind too much if they made a finals appearance this season. Wishing them luck either way.
MEM v. LAC
Even more fun and exciting of a series than anyone could have hoped!
Damn, didn't get to watch the MEM/LAC game. Pretty surprised that the Clippers won- was it all Chris Paul going off in the 4th quarter?
Still hoping the basketbears rally.
Yes, Paul was excellent in the fourth, as you might expect. But then it got close again as Rudy Gay decided to show us why he should be on the Olympic team this summer, and the Clippers decided to remind us that they were the worst free throw shooting team in the league.
It ended up coming down to a Rudy Gay make or miss on the last possession of the game!
That series has been one of the only interesting first round matchups so far. Everybody else has just been a mashup of blowouts, sweeps, and teams missing their best players.
Damn, didn't get to watch the MEM/LAC game. Pretty surprised that the Clippers won- was it all Chris Paul going off in the 4th quarter?
Still hoping the basketbears rally.
Yes, Paul was excellent in the fourth, as you might expect. But then it got close again as Rudy Gay decided to show us why he should be on the Olympic team this summer, and the Clippers decided to remind us that they were the worst free throw shooting team in the league.
It ended up coming down to a Rudy Gay make or miss on the last possession of the game!
That series has been one of the only interesting first round matchups so far. Everybody else has just been a mashup of blowouts, sweeps, and teams missing their best players.
I never know what to make of Rudy Gay. Sometimes he seems so good, and sometimes he's just turrble. Definitely gotta watch that next game !
And yeah, the first round hasn't been great. But the Dallas-OKC games were more exciting than the sweep would indicate, IMO. And while I'm confident the Lakers will beat the Nuggets, I have no idea how many games it will take them. The Lakers only play really well when they have no other choice.
So my bracket allows a single re-pick before the 5th game of a series in the first round, should I burn it and switch from Chicago to Philly winning that one? Definitely would if Noah was out the next game, too. Thinking about doing it anyways.
How is the Knicks' 4th quarter strategy "J.R. Smith bricking threes"
0
sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
Form of Monkey. You are terrible. The only people Lebron has ever lost to in the playoffs are teams with MUCH more talent. His 2nd-best teammate prior to last year? Probably MO FREAKING WILLIAMS. The guy who is the 3rd or 4th best PG on the LAC right now.
LeBron is better than anyone in the league and has been for about 6-7 years.
Yes, he melted down against Boston. Guess what? Many other HoFers have had bad playoffs. We should obviously criticize him a ton for having a bad series against a team WITH FOUR HOFers on it. Good plan!
Walkerdog on MTGO
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
0
sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
And then of course, as you go numerically higher on the list (i.e. closer to #96, not closer to #1) it gets increasingly debatable and nitpicking. "Why is Robert Horry even on the list? You might as well add Mario Elie while you're at it." "Why is Joe Dumars ranked higher than sharpshooting dream teamer, Chris Mullen?" "Chris Paul at just #90, really?" These kinds of pedantic things.
Same goes for Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady - both ranked higher than Paul, btw! If he did the list now, Paul would be way higher and Carter and McGrady wouldn't be on it. When all is said and done, Paul will be somewhere in the top 20 I imagine.
LeBron James is just not programmed that way. He doesn't want to be the best, he just wants ESPN pundits to describe him as the best currently playing.
Shitty team mates aside - this is the ONLY thing I am arguing when comparing Jordan and James.
I disagree, Tracy McGrady is still ~top 100 player in history, but he might be a lower-positioned player.
Walkerdog on MTGO
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
The only people Lebron has ever lost to in the playoffs are teams with MUCH more talent.
Yes, who could ever forget, for example, the talented 2008-2009 Orlando Magic, a team with so MUCH more talent that they started the great Hedo Turkoglu, Hall of Famer Courtney Lee, and world beater Rashard Lewis at the wing positions. Rashard Lewis, who was making the second-most money in the league behind Kobe Bryant, and so was therefore nearly as good as Kobe Bryant.
I mean besides sportzboytjw, who could ever forget them.
0
sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
The only people Lebron has ever lost to in the playoffs are teams with MUCH more talent.
Yes, who could ever forget, for example, the talented 2008-2009 Orlando Magic, a team with so MUCH more talent that they started the great Hedo Turkoglu, Hall of Famer Courtney Lee, and world beater Rashard Lewis at the wing positions. Rashard Lewis, who was making the second-most money in the league behind Kobe Bryant, and so was therefore nearly as good as Kobe Bryant.
I mean besides sportzboytjw, who could ever forget them.
Rashard was on fire at that point in his career, and Hedo and Jameer (good job skipping that hey, the second-best player on LBJ's team wasn't even as good as his opposite number), were both borderline all-stars. Nelson was hurt, so luckily, they had Rafer Alston who was only a little below Mo Williams. Courtney Lee is a fine wing and would have started on Cleveland. In fact, every. single. player. in Orlando's starting five, and quite PROBABLY Rafer Alston, JJ Redick, and Marcin Gortat would have made the starting five in Cleveland. Let's review: LBJ is obviously the best player in the NBA by every test (Stats, eye test, MVPs) except for the "shooting every single clutch (terrible) clutch shot like that cold-hearted assassin Kobe (or something). His best teammate prior to last year was Mo Williams, which is pretty funny when you start looking at the 2nd-best player on title teams during the last decade, and yet he's still bad because he lost to Orlando, who had such a BAD team that they had the All-NBA center and 5 other (at least) guys who were the equal or superior of Mo Williams. Yes, let's keep killing LeBron for being awesome (I noticed you backed down from LBJ choking vs Celts once Bubba brought up stats, which kill that narrative).
Walkerdog on MTGO
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
0
sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
The only people Lebron has ever lost to in the playoffs are teams with MUCH more talent.
Yes, who could ever forget, for example, the talented 2008-2009 Orlando Magic, a team with so MUCH more talent that they started the great Hedo Turkoglu, Hall of Famer Courtney Lee, and world beater Rashard Lewis at the wing positions. Rashard Lewis, who was making the second-most money in the league behind Kobe Bryant, and so was therefore nearly as good as Kobe Bryant.
I mean besides sportzboytjw, who could ever forget them.
Oh, world-beater Rashard Lewis? Guess what he was that year? An All-Star. Mo Williams made the team after injuries gave him a chance (and LeBron campaigned for him heavily). Rashard also led the league in 3s that year. His similarity scores (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lewisra02.html) are nothing but all-stars/near all-stars. Hedo is similar (slightly worse) compared to all-stars and near all-stars. He was also at the peak of his powers during that playoff run. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/turkohe01.html).
Guess who one of the injured players was that year that couldn't play, letting Mo in? Jameer Nelson. PG. Orlando. Mo Williams closest comps are very similar also, near all-stars and one-time all-stars and such. Do you realize that per 36 min, Marcin Gortat was averaging 13 rebounds and over 2 blocks, along with over 10 points and over 55% shooting? He wasn't playing THAT much, but imagine if LBJ could come out of a game and know that his sub wasn't a huge drop-off?
Walkerdog on MTGO
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
If I don't respond with particularity to your onslaught of quantity-not-quality posts, it's not because you have silenced all critics with your basketball-reference.com copy-pastes that (to be honest) read like you've never watched any of these players you're describing play in your life. No, it's because literally nobody is the least bit interested in arguing minutia about a player many NBA fans dislike, and rehashing these same tired arguments again and again. With all due respect, this isn't RealGM.
James is one of the most polarizing figures in the league, and NBA fans who dislike him are not going to read your posts and change their minds, nor will James fans who read my posts decide that they suddenly don't like him now either. The stakes are low, low, low.
Now you might read that and think "Well why did you make those comments about the 2009 Magic, then, if you didn't really want to dance this dance? What about that shit, then?"
Truthfully, I just wanted to see if you would actually praise the 2009 Magic--whom most people who follow the NBA understand to be one of the weakest teams to make the Finals in the last few decades--as though they were loaded with good players worthy of beating LeBron James.
And you didn't disappoint. It was kind of mean and deceitful of me to lead you down that garden path, and out you into making some foolish assessments of that team in defense of your hero, I do admit. But it was pretty funny to see you white-knight them, just as a yardstick to see if you're wading in the Kool-Aid or drowning in it. Look, you called me "terrible" so the least I could do was spin it into entertainment. But let's move on.
I'll make a deal with you. Let's just let LeBron James' rapidly ebbing career continue to speak for the both us, okay? Because what I've noticed is that it doesn't matter if you surround him with dubious talent or if you surround him with two other all-stars. The result is always the same, no? That's more than a little interesting, is it not?
So let's see if that trend continues just as it has for the past 8 years. Obviously I'm confident it will, but let's say the Heat chip this year anyway. Well, then we will definitively know that you were right all along, and that that's what it takes for LeBron James to win a championship after all, is to play on the best on-paper talented team the league has seen since the 1998 Bulls--anything less and he will come up short.
It would stand as a true testament to his greatness.
Posts
But how far fetched is that really? I can imagine Jackson giving it one more go with the Knicks. He was part of the Knicks only 2 titles and if Dolan just buries him under a shit ton of money, I can see him coming back to coaching. Of course - provided his health holds up.
Well, he was an assistant under Sloan for 7 years before taking over - so he didn't come that far out of nowhere. But I get the name recognition thing.
Shouldn't Jeff van Gundy be ready to coach again? What about Larry Brown? Mike Fratello? Paul Silas (I think I read he is out in Charlotte)? I can also see Paul Bearer ... err, the other van Gundy being fired in Orlando in the off season, either to appease Howard to stay or as a "Ok, if Howard is gone, we might as well clean house" kinda move. I'd throw in Hubie Brown - but the dude is closing in on 80, I doubt he'll ever coach again.
That organisation has been pretty stable the past few decades, so it isn't like going to Charlotte to coach for Michael Jordan or something like that. Which in turn makes me believe they will be able to attract a good coach, if they fire Corbin.
I think we've seen the last of phil jackson, honestly. It seems like if he still wanted to coach he'd have just stayed in LA. I'm sure he loves the knicks and all but I'm not sure why he'd want to coach there even if healthy.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Not saying Phil's gonna come back, but he didn't leave the Lakers just because he was tired of basketball or something.
Phil was/is Jeanie Buss' boyfriend, and Jeanie has been in a power struggle with Jim Buss to take over the Lakers after Jerry Buss retires or passes. Even though Jim and Jeanie are siblings, they don't get along - they don't even have a professional relationship.
The Phil/Jeanie vs Jim battle has been going on for a while now. It was a driving force behind Kobe calling the Lakers front office "a joke" back in 2007, and demanding a trade. Kurt Rambis was expected to take over as Head Coach after Phil, but he sided with Phil/Jeanie in the feud - that's why he was sent off and ended up in Minnesota. It's also why Brian Shaw, the next heir apparent (after Rambis left) to take over for Phil, wasn't hired to replace Phil.
Following Phil's departure, Jim cleaned house in the Lakers front office. The entire scouting department was let go, and replaced with people loyal to Jim (including making his favorite bartender a scout).
So for now, it appears Jim has won the power struggle. Phil is gone, Rambis is gone, Shaw is gone, and Jeanie is in exile.
Yeah, but ask yourself this. If you switch Jordan with James, would the Bulls still win the championship in 1991 and would the Heat still lose last years finals (and forget for a moment that the switch wouldn't work, because James plays the same position as Pippen and Jordan/Wade play the same position)?
Yes, Jordan hat shitty teammates for the first few years of his career. But in James case it was LeBron who is the problem, not shitty teammates. That is why I mentioned Jordans desire to win, because I seriously doubt a Jordan in his prime, with Wade and Bosh as his team mates would have lost to the Mavericks last year.
James is gun shy when it matters and defers too much to his team mates.
And then as his athleticism degraded, Michael Jordan would just bully his way into the paint using his off hand or drive and flail into defenders and look expectantly at the baseline official, waiting for the whistle to blow. It was embarrassing to watch.
If Jordan had ever spent thousands of hours in the gym perfecting a go-to move that required some technique, like a fadeaway jumper, then he might have actually reached his potential, instead of just being an overhyped athletic freak with no scoring skill set. Sadly, we're only left to wonder what might have been.
Seriously though, I'm not even sure LeBron James is in the NBAs top 20 players of all time, let alone top 5 or top 10. Yet for some reason, if James has a good game every once in a while against a bad team, he is instantly put in the conversation with the greatest player of all time, who had great games every game. This is the nature of starfucking sports punditry.
So check this out, Bill Simmons has LeBron James at #20 in his book, and I still think that's way too generous.
These are his other rankings (spoilered for length):
96. Tom Chambers
95. Jo Jo White
94. Jack Twyman
93. Kevin Johnson
92. Bob Lanier
91. Dwight Howard
90. Chris Paul
89. Shawn Kemp
88. Gail Goodrich
87. Connie Hawkins
86. Arvydas Sabonis
85. Robert Horry
84. Cliff Hagan
83. Vince Carter
82. Chris Mullin
81. Dave Bing
80. Bailey Howell
79. Bobby Dandridge
78. Paul Westphal
77. Dan Issel
76. Artis Gilmore
75. Tracy McGrady
74. Joe Dumars
73. Sidney Moncrief
72. Chris Webber
71. Lenny Wilkens
70. David Thompson
69. Dennis Rodman
68. Pete Maravich
67. Earl Monroe
66. Adrian Dantley
65. Alex English
64. Jerry Lucas
63. Ray Allen
62. Reggie Miller
Level 2
61. Bob McAdoo
60. Nate Archibald
59. Robert Parish
58. Bernard King
57. Tommy Heinsohn
56. Paul Arizin
55. Dominique Wilkins
54. Paul Pierce
53. Dwayne Wade
52. Dennis Johnson
51. Bill Sharman
50. Dolph Schayes
49. Elvin Hayes
48. James Worthy
47. Billy Cunningham
46. Hal Greer
45. Dave DeBusschere
44. Nate Thurmond
43. Clyde Drexler
42. Jason Kidd
41. Wes Unseld
40. Gary Payton
39. Patrick Ewing
38. Steve Nash
37. Dirk Nowitzki
Level 3
36. George Mikan
35. Kevin McHale
34. George Gervin
33. Sam Jones
32. Walt Frazier
31. Dave Cowens
30. Willis Reed
29. Allen Iverson
28. David Robinson
27. Bill Walton
26. Rick Barry
25. John Stockton
Level 4
24. Scottie Pippen
23. Isiah Thomas
22. Kevin Garnett
21. Bob Cousy
20. LeBron James
19. Charles Barkley
18. Karl Malone
17. Bob Pettit
16. Julius Erving
15. Kobe Bryant
14. Elgin Baylor
13. John Havlicek
The Pantheon
12. Moses Malone
11. Shaquille O’Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Oscar Robertson
8. Jerry West
7. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
4. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
1. Michael Jordan
It's a little dated and doesn't account for Dirk's amazing year last season. Evidently Dirk is in his top 25 now. And LeBron may have dropped after showing such playoff "excellence" last season as well. That would at least account for some inconsistencies in the list. For instance, even Scottie Pippen (#24) was arguably better than LeBron James (#20).
And then of course, as you go numerically higher on the list (i.e. closer to #96, not closer to #1) it gets increasingly debatable and nitpicking. "Why is Robert Horry even on the list? You might as well add Mario Elie while you're at it." "Why is Joe Dumars ranked higher than sharpshooting dream teamer, Chris Mullen?" "Chris Paul at just #90, really?" These kinds of pedantic things.
Just thought you guys would be interested, if you haven't seen Simmons' list already.
And Jordan himself was a major part of the reason he had shitty teammates. Whenever Chicago would get a good young prospect, Jordan would take it upon himself to mentally destroy them - in practice, in the press, however he could. He did it with Brad Sellers and Dennis Hopson, and he tried to do it with Pippen and Horace Grant. And then he most famously did it with Kwame Brown in Washington.
This is hardly praiseworthy. It's generally expected that great players will NOT be the obstacle standing in the way of a team's success. Also, don't forget James' infamous series quit against the Celtics during a prior season.
*shrug* James played with Old Shaq (aka Optimus Past-his-Prime). Shaq was still dining out on his reputation as a bit of a kingmaker after giving Wade what Simmons has called a "footnote title" of his own. Was even an old, slow Shaq better than Mo Williams? Yeah, probably.
Have you read The Jordan Rules? If you do, you will conclude that
1.) Michael Jordan was an incredible asshole
and
2.) Michael Jordan was a pathologically competitive, obsessive person in anything he ever did. It was a singular mindset that netted him good things (championships) and bad things (gambling addictions) alike.
LeBron James is just not programmed that way. He doesn't want to be the best, he just wants ESPN pundits to describe him as the best currently playing.
So while prime Michael Jordan is missing his daughter's birthday, shooting jumpers in a Chicago practice facility until 2 A.M. because he went 9 for 30 against the Pistons the night before, prime LeBron James is off fucking around in a South Beach night club.
I don't fault the man. In fact, I even understand where he's coming from. Hard things are hard. Difficult things are difficult.
Same goes for Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady - both ranked higher than Paul, btw! If he did the list now, Paul would be way higher and Carter and McGrady wouldn't be on it. When all is said and done, Paul will be somewhere in the top 20 I imagine.
Shitty team mates aside - this is the ONLY thing I am arguing when comparing Jordan and James.
Statistically he has authored a bunch of the best seasons in recent memory and is the only player in recent years to seriously challenge Jordan's all-time PER mark (and was even on pace to break it for a chunk of this season.) His physical talents are obvious; implying a guy who has averaged 27+ PPG for the last six seasons while shooting near or above .500 from the field doesn't have a 'scoring skill set' is just unbelievably dumb. He hasn't really developed a post game, but so what? None of the great wing players ever developed a serious post game until age or injury forced it on them.
I don't really care where he falls on a 'greatest player ever' list because 'greatness' is a completely subjective quality that we generally don't even attempt to apply consistently. A large part of Jordan's 'greatness' is the result of him being one of the most marketable people in history. By practically any measure you want to use, James has been one of the best 2-3 players in the league every year except his rookie year (if not the outright best.)
People knock Lebron for not being 'clutch' (except when he is), for not having 'heart' (whatever that means) and for handling his exit from cleveland in basically the worst way possible (fair enough.) I don't find any of those criticisms particularly compelling.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The "infamous quit" was largely a creation by Lebron-haters in the media.
Lebron had a 27/19/10 triple-double in the final game of that series vs BOS. That's a career-high in rebounds, in a game where he supposedly quit. That doesn't even make sense - rebounds are one of the most effort-based stats kept in the NBA. After the loss, Lebron was criticized for trying to do too much, with critics pointing to his 9 TO as evidence.
I think Cavs Mo was better than Cavs Shaq. Cavs Shaq sucked. He'd basically used up the last of his reserves being force fed the ball by Terry Porter in Phoenix, and was drained by the time he got to PHX.
Either way, neither of them is better than a prime Grant, let alone a prime Pippen.
Nah, Jordan was probably gambling in a casino until 2am during the middle of a playoff series.
Both guys' games are testament to hours put in at the gym, but Jordan wasn't some basketball-obsessed robot (that would be Kobe).
Whether or not its true, Lebron comes off as feeling entitled to greatness, where MJ earned it. It leaves the impression that Lebron could earn it, but he just isnt trying hard enough.
also, I totally was not expecting the clippers to wind up winning this game.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
These nailbiters are terrible for my stress levels
Especially when they have likely over a decade left to play.
And LeBron says the champion shouldn't have an *. Well of course he'd say that.
LeBron James will not play in the league for 18 seasons total, no. In fact, he's already been in the league for 8 seasons and has logged over 36,000 minutes.
For the sake of comparison, Michael Jordan played about 45,000 minutes in his Bulls career.
OKC got the brooms out tonight
Nothing says "This team probably doesn't belong in the playoffs" like their having Big Baby take and miss their clutch, game-deciding jumper in the closing seconds.
Although it was kind of amusing to see him chuck and heave his kid around like some kind of post-game interview prop.
OKC v. DAL
I'm relieved that the Mavs were swept in the first round, because it will finally remove all doubt in Marc Cuban's mind about whether or not they need to retool their roster and build again around Dirk's last two contract years.
There's been strong Deron Williams to Dallas talk for months now, so it seems like it might happen. And now there's talk that JET won't be resigned, either, which is sort of good news because it means that the Mavs won't be giving Terry the $10 million(!) he wanted and will have that much more cap flexibility this summer.
As far as OKC goes, Westbrook is hard to watch, but Harden is fun to watch, so it's kind of a push. I wouldn't mind too much if they made a finals appearance this season. Wishing them luck either way.
MEM v. LAC
Even more fun and exciting of a series than anyone could have hoped!
Still hoping the basketbears rally.
Yes, Paul was excellent in the fourth, as you might expect. But then it got close again as Rudy Gay decided to show us why he should be on the Olympic team this summer, and the Clippers decided to remind us that they were the worst free throw shooting team in the league.
It ended up coming down to a Rudy Gay make or miss on the last possession of the game!
That series has been one of the only interesting first round matchups so far. Everybody else has just been a mashup of blowouts, sweeps, and teams missing their best players.
I never know what to make of Rudy Gay. Sometimes he seems so good, and sometimes he's just turrble. Definitely gotta watch that next game !
And yeah, the first round hasn't been great. But the Dallas-OKC games were more exciting than the sweep would indicate, IMO. And while I'm confident the Lakers will beat the Nuggets, I have no idea how many games it will take them. The Lakers only play really well when they have no other choice.
EDIT: Another knee sacrificed to the Knee Gods.
Baron Davis deserved better.
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
That is what Knicks ticketholders have been promised: Jeremy Lin should there be a Game 5.
Anything to make this garbage series more interesting would be greatly appreciated.
LeBron is better than anyone in the league and has been for about 6-7 years.
Yes, he melted down against Boston. Guess what? Many other HoFers have had bad playoffs. We should obviously criticize him a ton for having a bad series against a team WITH FOUR HOFers on it. Good plan!
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
I disagree, Tracy McGrady is still ~top 100 player in history, but he might be a lower-positioned player.
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
Yes, who could ever forget, for example, the talented 2008-2009 Orlando Magic, a team with so MUCH more talent that they started the great Hedo Turkoglu, Hall of Famer Courtney Lee, and world beater Rashard Lewis at the wing positions. Rashard Lewis, who was making the second-most money in the league behind Kobe Bryant, and so was therefore nearly as good as Kobe Bryant.
I mean besides sportzboytjw, who could ever forget them.
Rashard was on fire at that point in his career, and Hedo and Jameer (good job skipping that hey, the second-best player on LBJ's team wasn't even as good as his opposite number), were both borderline all-stars. Nelson was hurt, so luckily, they had Rafer Alston who was only a little below Mo Williams. Courtney Lee is a fine wing and would have started on Cleveland. In fact, every. single. player. in Orlando's starting five, and quite PROBABLY Rafer Alston, JJ Redick, and Marcin Gortat would have made the starting five in Cleveland. Let's review: LBJ is obviously the best player in the NBA by every test (Stats, eye test, MVPs) except for the "shooting every single clutch (terrible) clutch shot like that cold-hearted assassin Kobe (or something). His best teammate prior to last year was Mo Williams, which is pretty funny when you start looking at the 2nd-best player on title teams during the last decade, and yet he's still bad because he lost to Orlando, who had such a BAD team that they had the All-NBA center and 5 other (at least) guys who were the equal or superior of Mo Williams. Yes, let's keep killing LeBron for being awesome (I noticed you backed down from LBJ choking vs Celts once Bubba brought up stats, which kill that narrative).
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
Oh, world-beater Rashard Lewis? Guess what he was that year? An All-Star. Mo Williams made the team after injuries gave him a chance (and LeBron campaigned for him heavily). Rashard also led the league in 3s that year. His similarity scores (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lewisra02.html) are nothing but all-stars/near all-stars. Hedo is similar (slightly worse) compared to all-stars and near all-stars. He was also at the peak of his powers during that playoff run. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/turkohe01.html).
Guess who one of the injured players was that year that couldn't play, letting Mo in? Jameer Nelson. PG. Orlando. Mo Williams closest comps are very similar also, near all-stars and one-time all-stars and such. Do you realize that per 36 min, Marcin Gortat was averaging 13 rebounds and over 2 blocks, along with over 10 points and over 55% shooting? He wasn't playing THAT much, but imagine if LBJ could come out of a game and know that his sub wasn't a huge drop-off?
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
Hasn't he learned? You can't outflop kobe/pau.
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
If I don't respond with particularity to your onslaught of quantity-not-quality posts, it's not because you have silenced all critics with your basketball-reference.com copy-pastes that (to be honest) read like you've never watched any of these players you're describing play in your life. No, it's because literally nobody is the least bit interested in arguing minutia about a player many NBA fans dislike, and rehashing these same tired arguments again and again. With all due respect, this isn't RealGM.
James is one of the most polarizing figures in the league, and NBA fans who dislike him are not going to read your posts and change their minds, nor will James fans who read my posts decide that they suddenly don't like him now either. The stakes are low, low, low.
Now you might read that and think "Well why did you make those comments about the 2009 Magic, then, if you didn't really want to dance this dance? What about that shit, then?"
Truthfully, I just wanted to see if you would actually praise the 2009 Magic--whom most people who follow the NBA understand to be one of the weakest teams to make the Finals in the last few decades--as though they were loaded with good players worthy of beating LeBron James.
And you didn't disappoint. It was kind of mean and deceitful of me to lead you down that garden path, and out you into making some foolish assessments of that team in defense of your hero, I do admit. But it was pretty funny to see you white-knight them, just as a yardstick to see if you're wading in the Kool-Aid or drowning in it. Look, you called me "terrible" so the least I could do was spin it into entertainment. But let's move on.
I'll make a deal with you. Let's just let LeBron James' rapidly ebbing career continue to speak for the both us, okay? Because what I've noticed is that it doesn't matter if you surround him with dubious talent or if you surround him with two other all-stars. The result is always the same, no? That's more than a little interesting, is it not?
So let's see if that trend continues just as it has for the past 8 years. Obviously I'm confident it will, but let's say the Heat chip this year anyway. Well, then we will definitively know that you were right all along, and that that's what it takes for LeBron James to win a championship after all, is to play on the best on-paper talented team the league has seen since the 1998 Bulls--anything less and he will come up short.
It would stand as a true testament to his greatness.