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[Opinions lol] Whatever happened to the RPG?
Posts
Xenoblade doesn't have antidotes, burn heal or paralyze heal. Goddamnit, Monolith Soft, why'd you have to go ruin everything? You're right, It's totally easy to define: if a game has antidotes it's a jrpg. Now that we've settled it I'm sure the internet will stop debating it once and for all. You're welcome, everyone.
Wait, we haven't defined crpgs yet. If a game has antidotes AND talking skulls it's a crpg. Did I do that right?
Currently playing: Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, Metro 2033
I think it's the overall charm of the characters that was lost for me in the move to 3d. It's an extreme example, but I'd rather play as the Black Mage from FF1 than try to play as anyone in FFXII.
You know how in Japan they do subtle things to american games to make the characters resonate like giving Crash big funny eyebrows? I wonder if they've ever considered taking one of the recent JRPGs and actually facelifting the characters a bit for the western audience.
As I added to my post, it's extremely easy to define what makes a JRPG and you're just being argumentative.
Xenoblade is third person with sweeping fantasy vistas, fantasy weapons, an outrageous high fantasy plot, magic etc. But these things are not always necessary to the core of what a JRPG is; Earthbound is also a JRPG but isn't high fantasy, though it does feature ESP powers. You equip weapons and armor in the traditional sense, walk from town to town, speak to NPCs and do sidequests. There are dungeons and treasures, and the feeling that you can visit them whenever you like rather than being ushered from setpiece to setpiece.
Think of it like a meter that fills up by a certain amount depending on which bits are present, and the more full it is, the more of a traditional JRPG the game is. Epic fantasy adventure with magic? That's 20% of the meter. Towns with NPCs to talk to separated by outdoor excursions? That's another 15%. Status effects? 5%. Weapons, armor, and accessories? 10%. Party members with situational usefulness that can be swapped out? Another 10%.
At the same time other meters are filling up based on other criteria. First person, realistic guns, semi-realistic modern or future setting, modern political/wartime intrigue? Not typically JRPG fare, but it's certainly stuff to weigh against the game's other aspects.
Not all typical aspects of a genre are required, but anyone who has been gaming for any length of time can easily identify what is and what isn't.
That's what makes a genre a genre. You can literally never put any thing into any category because it will be missing some aspects of what other things in that category have, but it's still quite easy to do most of the time as long as you're not being disingenuous.
Nintendo Network ID: unclesporky
Sarcasm aside, I'm being dead serious. Stay classy.
I'm going to drop the argument, because it's been had before and it will again (yay internet). I don't agree with your definitions and the silly meter went apeshit the moment your started using an antidote and some vague imaginary meter as key points of your stance.
The lesson here is that introducing Pokemon to any discussion results in godless anarchy. Or something.
Currently playing: Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, Metro 2033
The line you're giving now is that JRPG is what is sometimes called a 'cluster concept,' which is a concept where no features are either necessary or sufficient for membership in the concept, but instead each feature is more or less important in determining whether any particular thing is a member. (More on cluster concepts here.)
But the problem is that articulating the full list of features which might contribute to some thing falling within a cluster concept is famously difficult, partially because there are likely to be so many features that are relevant, partially because getting clear on the weighting is very difficult.
I have some sympathy for the claims that 1) the JRPG is a cluster concept, and 2) we can easily identify iconic, paradigmatic examples of the genre, but I don't know why you are so confident that others will come to the same conclusions as you as regards more borderline cases. The story you're telling about how we identify JRPGs is actually pretty complicated, and there are a ton of assessments others might make differently through using that story.
For me, this has always felt like the case in many JRPGs, and is one of the reasons I prefer WRPGs. When playing a final fantasy game I am not truly playing the role of any one character, at least not in the sense of having any control over their role in the story. Some of them do not even have a clear main character. This is fine, but I usually find that I care more about a story when it is presenting me with meaningful choices.
Strategy RPG is a genre that indicates there is a higher level of strategy in battle than simply cast spell, hit with weapon, etc. Generally it means battles take place in some form of field of battle with characters moving around like chess pieces with environment, positioning and team work winning battles. There's nothing like that in Pokemon. Strategy RPG would be that new Pokemon/Nobunagas crossover game.
That's because they are key points of what make up JRPGs, though as stated they are not necessary. You were the one using minor parts of JRPGs as reasoning to re-classify what is obviously a first person shooter.
I am not confident that others will come to the same conclusions, but I'm also not worried about that; if 30% of the people say it's a JRPG and 70% say it's an adventure game (Zelda, for example), then I'll side with the 70% group. I'm not necessarily looking for objectivity, I'm looking for majority, and that's why it's laughable when people say things like "oh well technically Tetris is a platformer."
Nintendo Network ID: unclesporky
So your claim that Xenoblade is a JRPG is also a prediction that most people would agree with you? And if it turned out that most people didn't agree with you, you'd change your mind on whether Xenoblade is a JRPG?
I am legitimately curious. This kind of stuff is very interesting to me, and I had not considered that you might think whether something is a JRPG doesn't depend on any facts about the game, it just depends on assessments people make of the game. It's not obvious to me that people in fact use the cluster concept methodology to categorize JRPGs; most of this thread seems to be looking for necessary and sufficient conditions.
So it depends on facts of the game, and it depends on what other people think it is based on the facts of the game.
Nintendo Network ID: unclesporky
Anyway, to further elaborate on my response to the OP, no, Chrono Trigger could not be made today. Mainly because the game doesn't waste your time. It moves you along briskly, from location to location, and the story text can be read through in seconds. All the locations are vibrant and diverse, and interesting to look through. A comparison I like to make with what modern games do with your time is FF7 compared to a few recent games. The entire Midgar part of FF7, which few will forget, is about 6 hours. In 6 hours of Mass Effect or FFXII, basically nothing has happened and you are still waiting for "the good part". In ME, it eventually comes, in FFXII, I quit the game after so many hours of boredom. Learn some pacing, you cretins.
There also is the problem that the art styles suck. The samish cartoony 3d character look that is in basically every Western game looks like ass. Compare the Witcher 2(which looks different) with Dragon Age (what I'm talking about). With JRPGs, its pretty simple. Modern anime style is terrible. There's colors everywhere and silly clothing, but no real feel.
So basically, what you're saying is that CT couldn't be made today with modern technology. However, if a certain indie group that wasn't tied to the problems of modern 3D graphics was to attempt the challenge in a few years...
Zeboyd Games Development Blog
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire, Facebook : Zeboyd Games
I will give you a copy of Wasteland 2 if you're wrong.
I was SOOO hoping that you would turn up in this thread. OP, listen to this man.
Anyway, I loved the old JRPGs, like FF6(3), stuff like Suikoden, and most of the old final fantasies, but somewhere along the lines they stopped being good stories, or rather, I should say, mature stories. If I have to listen to one more insipid fucking thirteen year old kid as a character Im going to throw my controller/mouse through the screen. Somewhere along the line they just stopped maturing with me. Its also one of the reasons I love the Witcher 2 so much, because it actually has a mature story. That's my problem in a nutshell.(Although Ive heard tales of graces has decent writing, so I might have to check that out.)
And Disruptor hit a nail on the head here, I think. I absolutely loved Chrono Trigger because of its refusal to waste absolutely any of my time.
And I'll start up the whole DA2 thing again: As much as I personally like to hate on it, its more because that game doesn't even feel like a sequel to the first game. The tactical combat that was a huge part of the first game was gone, and its place was some weird fast paced action...thing. By its own merits I don't think its a horrible game, it just felt like such a huge departure from the first one, combat style/story style and all that it was a huge letdown.
Zeboyd Games Development Blog
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire, Facebook : Zeboyd Games
The Shin Megami Tensei games follow the same formula as Pokemon. Except you're recruiting demons, rather than Pokemon. They're universally considered RPGs.
I think you're confusing the surface elements of RPGs with the underlying reasons why people play and enjoy RPGs. Extra Credits had a great episode on the subject. I recommend it.
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1 (Later half of the episode.)
Currently playing: Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, Metro 2033
I found FF13-2 to be a pretty awesome game, and I think the reduced time/budget constraints helped at lot in its development.
Another example I like is Pokemon, which is in no way as expensive to develop as any AAA titles, yet is immensely popular. Interesting to note is that, with Black and White, the game's story was closer to that of a non-Pokemon RPG.
@CaptainNemo Resonance of Fate has a pretty cool combat system, and the characters are pretty cool. The story follows a "daily life" approach, which I found boring but others have enjoyed. The combat system's main flaw though is that you have almost your entire repertoire available from the beginning, with only one remaining weapon type to unlock in the story. Also, while you can customize your guns like crazy, the changes are not visually apparent.
I think this is a fascinating point though. Why was a game like Chrono Trigger so full of non-filler, yet would still take most people 40+ hours to beat? Some of it could be tacked up to grinding (I mean, who didn't grind the stairs in the Black Temple with Luminar? It was like a free 15 levels before you had to fight Twin Golems). But that's not all of it...was it just that the stories were grander and the idea of a Fed Ex quest hadn't been invented yet?
Drawn out battle transitions, loading screens, slowly paced text to accommodate voice acting, lengthy animations... all of that stuff just exists to draw things out and ruin the pace. With the current consoles they won't be able to totally eliminate some of those concessions to the disc format, but anything that can be done to minimize them is absolutely welcome. In my opinion, the single best improvement that Squeenix made to FF13-2 over FF13 was ditching the initial paradigm shift animations. They also made their biggest mistake (likely due to the budget) in having absurdly long load times to transfer from the Historia Crux to different locales.
I think part of the creativity in The World Ends With You (a far more recent game) is the way they allow you to pace the game yourself. You choose when to battle, and you choose how difficult you want it to be. The game also is artificially structured in bite-sized "Days", akin to chapters, which helps the pacing.
RainbowDespair's own game has some shitty pacing elements (Sorry, but randomly winding dungeons isn't good pacing or fun... this is just personal opinion and not an attack, and I realize that it's an homage to the genre), but they added the ability to fight the "random" battles on your own time and had a battle counter to prevent random battles from ruining the pacing on extended journeys.
I like Akihiko Yoshida's art and design, so my reasons for not wanting to play XII lie moreso in the gameplay and story departments.
But Nier is an example of a game where the character has a more "westernized" appearance. If you played that or saw its design, what was your opinion of it? That would be kind of what you'd see if Japanese developers attempted to "westernize" their character designs. Is there a particular RPg you're thinking about applying this sort of facelift to?
I haven't picked it up - but I've watched some videos of it, and it definitely would be more on my radar than most other Square offerings. My gaming time basically forces me to play RPGs on a handheld at this time, otherwise they never get played, so I've been mostly doing stuff on the DS otherwise I'd probably pick it up. The lead character does look a lot like the main guy from the Rygar remake a few years ago though.
I can't think of a specific recent game - but how about this (and this isn't a turn based traditional JRPG, but I think a good example). Let's say you had a Kingdom Hearts side story game and you eliminated most of the Square characters and had the game star a new lead character who is completely the opposite of the leads they've had in the KH series. No anime looking characters, no stupid jpop ballad, no drawn out cinemas. I would buy that game and I lost interest in that series years ago.
How about a Final Fantasy game where the characters are designed in more of a Fable (ie traditional knights and magician) style? It seems a bit like JRPGs would have more appeal if they looked less like JRPGs.
I attribute the length of the game back then due to the lack of GameFAQs (and the like). The proliferation of online guides has "shortened" the length of all games on average. There were a couple spots in Chrono Trigger that I got stuck on when I was younger (though after having come back to the game a year later then, I promptly figured it out and never could understand how I got stuck at all).
Those sorts of roadblocks artificially lengthen the game because you end up having to explore all over the place, combat ensues and your gametime ticks up. Back then, it was almost a local community effort to beat a JRPG. Everyone had their circle of gamer friends and you'd pick each other's brains to get by. Today, if you get stuck, you just grab your smartphone and google what to do next. Getting stuck in a game is a choice nowadays.
There was more than a few JRPG's that I couldn't figure out in my younger years. I got major stuck in the original Breath of Fire too (during the ocean exploration)... had GameFAQ's been around, I would have beaten a few more games as a kid I suspect.
Yeah, Chrono Trigger is 20-30 hours depending on the player and how thorough you are. I'd still much rather have 20 hours of great than 60 hours of pretty good.
Completely agree with you. The huge winding dungeons in CSTW was our #1 regret with the game. Rain-Slick 3's dungeons are much denser and more interesting.
Zeboyd Games Development Blog
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire, Facebook : Zeboyd Games
Yep. We live in a world where game reviews specifically point out "average play time" and then people look at that and know that they can beat the game in half the time by reading a FAQ. A lot of game developers are so focused on hitting a certain amount of play time that they just hamfist a bunch of time sink stuff into their game to appease reviewers and preempt arguments that their game sucks because it isn't long enough.
I mean, look at the Diablo 3 beta conversation. Most of it is centered around people worried about the length of the story (which isn't really what Diablo is about and even if it was, the D2 beta should be a good indication of how comprehensive Blizzard's betas are as far as story content is concerned) and the difficulty curve (which people have no way of knowing except that Diablo 2 was pretty hard at the highest level so much so that people bitched and moaned about things like elemental immunities, etc.).
Everybody wants to be entertained in perpetuity while simultaneously being presented with an epic, novel story dictated by their choices and their choices alone that's never been done before.
It doesn't help that we have to water down anything that could be construed as even a little bit offensive (religious themes, anything having to do with sex or sexuality, etc.) to make sure it hits a specific rating and can be marketed to the right group of people. I mean look at Hot Coffee. That stuff wasn't even in the game proper and people lost their collective shit over it because "games are for kids and what if a kid learned about intercourse from GTA?!"
Steam: Jacobontap
LoL: FutureBlues
Also, this has been pretty interesting. Keep it up =D
Success depends on the character's abilities (like, say, FFXII), rather than the player's skill or reflexes (Monster Hunter).
For that matter, who cares? Diablo has never been about engaging story and hours of unique content. The fact that Diablo historically has even had a somewhat interesting story to follow is an anomaly.
"ZOMG Blizzard doesn't know how to design a game, they keep changing it!"...from the same people who complain when a company doesn't change anything during the beta.
It is amazing how much people complain about content length these days. I never really realized it, but it's true. To some extent, I get it. Things were swinging a weird direction there for a while, where games were 10 hours long for 60 bucks and people were a bit pissed. But the idea that ever game needs to be 40+ hours is silly. If every game I bought was 40 hours, I wouldn't ever finish any of them.
why not?
No bard class.