IME Jungle Fizz clears slowly, ganks poorly, and does little damage because he's forced to go tanky ad
So after a little bit of screwing around, my thought is that you don't really have to go tanky ad to get solid clears because his passive is really solid vs. jungle creeps. So then you've got ganks somewhat worse than Mundo's pre-6 and clears substantially worse than Mundo's for most of the game, but at least you don't sacrifice your endgame?
IME Jungle Fizz clears slowly, ganks poorly, and does little damage because he's forced to go tanky ad
So after a little bit of screwing around, my thought is that you don't really have to go tanky ad to get solid clears because his passive is really solid vs. jungle creeps. So then you've got ganks somewhat worse than Mundo's pre-6 and clears substantially worse than Mundo's for most of the game, but at least you don't sacrifice your endgame?
Had a rough game with Poultree, Kay and a few others last night. Our bot was Ashe and Leona versus Draven and Blitz, their team got first blood on a jungle invade, and it just turned horrible very quickly. I'd say I did a decent job of stopping them from getting to Ashe (I think she had 2 deaths by the end of the game?), but Blitz could run into our tower's range, grab one of us, let Draven melt us, then run out before dying. Late game Draven literally did 90% damage to Ashe in two hits.
I haven't run into too many Draven+Blitz lanes, but they don't seem to be countered by my standard "pick Leona, stun harder" strategy for Blitz; Draven does too much damage for that. Hiding behind minions is alright, until Blitz decides to pop his steroid and chase you past them.
Maybe Taric would work for the defensive aura and ranged stun? Graves would probably be a decent carry against it, because of his burst and tankiness.
Does anyone have any tips for mid lane? I can at least function, sometimes successfully, in every role except mid. for some reason mids, and i just don't click. prechange i ran ryze frequently, and just recently picked up anivia. I can farm pretty well pre 6, post 6 anivia farm is easy mode, but beyond farming i can't seem to play the lane right. Is mid usually just a push lane, and then gank kind of lane?
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KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
Had a rough game with Poultree, Kay and a few others last night. Our bot was Ashe and Leona versus Draven and Blitz, their team got first blood on a jungle invade, and it just turned horrible very quickly. I'd say I did a decent job of stopping them from getting to Ashe (I think she had 2 deaths by the end of the game?), but Blitz could literally run into our tower's range, grab one of us, let Draven melt us, then run out before dying. Late game Draven literally did 90% damage to Ashe in two hits.
I haven't run into too many Draven+Blitz lanes, but they don't seem to be countered by my standard "pick Leona, stun harder" strategy for Blitz; Draven does too much damage for that. Hiding behind minions is alright, until Blitz decides to pop his steroid and chase you past them.
Maybe Taric would work for the defensive aura and ranged stun? Graves would probably be a decent carry against it, because of his burst and tankiness.
I honestly think Janna might have been better there - throw a reactive shield on Ashe, Tornado Draven to interrupt his attacks, and hope Ashe can walk out. Alternately, Ezreal/Leona (for the blink and Leona's stuns) and ignore Blitz when grabbed, just stun the carry, if possible, and escape. Or counter-initate with Leona's insane CC, and Ezreal's burst.
And yeah, that game went to hell in a handbasket quickly. The jungle invade netted Draven a double kill, delayed Jax from getting to top lane before Kayle hit 2, then Kayle just totalled Jax under his tower thanks to Q+E.
Does anyone have any tips for mid lane? I can at least function, sometimes successfully, in every role except mid. for some reason mids, and i just don't click. prechange i ran ryze frequently, and just recently picked up anivia. I can farm pretty well pre 6, post 6 anivia farm is easy mode, but beyond farming i can't seem to play the lane right. Is mid usually just a push lane, and then gank kind of lane?
It depends on your mid. Ryze is most definitely not a push-then-gank kind of lane until he has some CDR behind him, as he can only push with his ult. Sion, on the other hand, is most definitely a 'nuke minion wave, roam top or bot for ganks constantly' sorta guy, as is Ahri. Morde is more of a 'nuke minion wave, take your wraiths or their wraiths', as his ganks aren't that great unless he has Rylai's, then they're still not amazing.
Sometimes, you want to farm under your tower, but that leads to the opposing mid roaming sometimes, and make for easier jungle ganks. Sometimes, you just want to push to their tower while they're not there to make them lose lots of farm, then take their jungle or gank a sidelane. It depends entirely on your teamcomp, their teamcomp, and how the game's going.
Should I get Shyvana on sale? I've been looking for a more aggressive jungler (and I fail at Mundo somehow and I mostly play Amumu and Nautilus currently), but I do like CC a lot and she doesn't really have any. Of course, I probably should get Graves instead but FUCK GRAVES
Shyvana is a lot of fun. She does good damage and gets tanky. Take exhaust/smite for when you're ganking a lane that has no CC of their own, but you can gank surprisingly easy with her without the CC if you take the right path in. She does enough damage to make up for it. I also don't care for Mundo, and typically go Shyvana/Olaf if I'm going to be aggressively counter jungling.
Malphite can't EQ Irelia with impunity because she can bladesurge, stun(if he took her health lower than his, and get 2 or 3 true damage autos in easily. And she has sustain and he doesn't. Maybe a skill matchup, but most are.
You're forgetting that Malphite's E nerfs her AS something fierce. By the time she has significant true damage enough to overcome that, Malphite should have Philo and Glacial if he went that route, or he should have lots of Mpen and be absolutely chunking her every time she tries to go in on him.
Malphite E-Qs, I attack minions for 4 seconds, then go on him for a stun true damage trade then back out. Did he run too far away to go harass him back? Then he misses CS and I don't, and I sustain back on the minions. Also, if he wants to get in minions and E he'll push the lane and I'll happily freeze it hard just outside my turret. Skill matchup for sure.
Irelia's W + E + a hit won't deal significant damage past malphite's shield. You will lose every trade with malphite. "I'll just let myself get to low health against this towerdiving monster so I can stun him" isn't a good idea.
Against an Irelia additionally, Malphite gets to level up his E first instead of Q. This lets him get to midgame in a much better teamfight position than if he had to level Q.
I've beaten Malphite into the dirt as Irelia, so it's clearly not as easy you think. =P Early in the game E alone will almost break his shield even with just one rank, and if you do it right after his brutal strikes wears off, he's stunned and eats some true damage hits, which ignore all that pretty armor. If he was maxxing E I'd just build some early armor to win trades even more. He has no potential to kill me, and I can out sustain his damage and farm all day. Plus, he'll get ganked because I will just freeze the lane easily after he pushes it with E.
Build early armor to win trades? What? If he's maxing E or Q, all his damage is magic, you make no sense.
If he's pushing, also, you cannot both lifesteal back with autoattacks on creeps *and* freeze lane. It doesn't work like that.
Derped, I meant MR. It certainly doesn't hurt that wit's end is one of the first items you build on Irelia. Also, if he's pushing with E, you'd be very surprised at how large of a wave of his I can freeze right outside my tower. He's just not that hard to lane against as Irelia. Not somebody I'd expect to kill without ganks unless I zone him hard enough to get levels on him, but I will out CS a malphite and out trade him. If I don't, I will consider myself outplayed, but it's definitely not a matchup I'm afraid of, and in my experience with it, I have no reason to be.
i usually beat irelia as malphite or at least break even with her. she has no escapes so ganks will ruin her day
Not pushing the lane is the best, but it's actually surprisingly easy to escape ganks with Irelia against most people. Fake like you're running to the tower, bladesurge back to a minion and run down river. Gank denied. Also, my first items on Irelia are typically HoG, Phage, and Wit's end and I run 9/21, so I can run away from a gank without even using flash most of the time unless i'm overextended a mile, but I also ward, so I rarely ever die to ganks.
Oh my god, I just got completely shit on by Skarner while playing Amumu. How can that not happen...?
Skarner does pretty good damage, and perma slows you. You have to ward the entrances to your jungle, at all times, and your top/mid/bot should be ready to react as soon as they see him enter your jungle. It's the only defense against an aggressive counter jungler who can 1v1 you if you meet.
Does anyone have any tips for mid lane? I can at least function, sometimes successfully, in every role except mid. for some reason mids, and i just don't click. prechange i ran ryze frequently, and just recently picked up anivia. I can farm pretty well pre 6, post 6 anivia farm is easy mode, but beyond farming i can't seem to play the lane right. Is mid usually just a push lane, and then gank kind of lane?
It depends on your mid. Ryze is most definitely not a push-then-gank kind of lane until he has some CDR behind him, as he can only push with his ult. Sion, on the other hand, is most definitely a 'nuke minion wave, roam top or bot for ganks constantly' sorta guy, as is Ahri. Morde is more of a 'nuke minion wave, take your wraiths or their wraiths', as his ganks aren't that great unless he has Rylai's, then they're still not amazing.
Sometimes, you want to farm under your tower, but that leads to the opposing mid roaming sometimes, and make for easier jungle ganks. Sometimes, you just want to push to their tower while they're not there to make them lose lots of farm, then take their jungle or gank a sidelane. It depends entirely on your teamcomp, their teamcomp, and how the game's going.
Mid these days works kind of like this: take creep wave, take wraiths, take creep waves, take wolves, take creep wave, etc. Steal their wraiths if you can safely get away with it. Don't bother ganking side lanes unless they either don't have wards or you can safely go through their jungle and come up behind them (or you are TF). Ward their wraith ramp (alternatively your curved brush opposite their wraith ramp) and their curved brush opposite your wraith ramp. Play conservatively unless you know where their jungler is or you have solid ward coverage (solid ward coverage doesn't matter vs. nocturne because he can just come through the lane beyond your sight range). If your jungler ganks for you try to initiate with whatever cc you have.
I do not recommend Anivia for the inexperienced, she has a very high skillcap. Ryze is extremely effective and has a lower skillcap due to only using targeted abilities, so he's probably a better "my first mid laner" character. However, note that he does not build nor function like most other mid laners. Also, don't be afraid to use Ryze's ult just to push creeps mid or take a jungle camp; every time you use your q it lowers the cd on all your other abilities by 1 second so your ult will pretty much always be up when it needs to be. When you're comboing with Ryze, try to alternate between q and his other abilities for maximum damage over time. For example, in a team fight, you might combo q r q e q w q. Lane harass might go q w q e q. For quick burst (say when a jungler is ganking for you) you might combo q w e q to get the second q off faster. If you want my whole Ryze set up I can post that too, but that goes pretty far beyond general mid lane tips.
Does anyone have any tips for mid lane? I can at least function, sometimes successfully, in every role except mid. for some reason mids, and i just don't click. prechange i ran ryze frequently, and just recently picked up anivia. I can farm pretty well pre 6, post 6 anivia farm is easy mode, but beyond farming i can't seem to play the lane right. Is mid usually just a push lane, and then gank kind of lane?
Yes and no. Depends on your matchup. If you're against someone who can't push back and clear waves quickly, then yes, pushing them to turret is a valid tactic. However, you leave yourself open to ganks, so wards are a must at all times. Focus on farming more than killing. Kills are nice, but CS will win you your lanes.
Does anyone have any tips for mid lane? I can at least function, sometimes successfully, in every role except mid. for some reason mids, and i just don't click. prechange i ran ryze frequently, and just recently picked up anivia. I can farm pretty well pre 6, post 6 anivia farm is easy mode, but beyond farming i can't seem to play the lane right. Is mid usually just a push lane, and then gank kind of lane?
It really depends on the mid you play. There are wildly different styles. There are mids that excel at killing their lane opponent or pushing and roaming, and there are mids that are just farmers. I like to play ones from the different camps. I'll play Ahri if I want to roam and gank a lot, Anivia if I want to farm and just try to kill my lane opponent if I can catch them with a combo and have good team fight zoning presence. I play Ryze because he's awesome, though I won't pick him against a strong pusher because pre 6 you can't push waves at all. I like Xerath sometimes too, though I haven't figured out what matchups I like and don't like him in. Probably my favorite mid is Twisted Fate though, because he can farm all day and if you coordinate ganks with your jungler(or just do it yourself) you WILL get kills on any lane that isn't hugging their tower, and honestly, you can just double kill bot lane with coordinated 4v2 tower dives too.
Had a rough game with Poultree, Kay and a few others last night. Our bot was Ashe and Leona versus Draven and Blitz, their team got first blood on a jungle invade, and it just turned horrible very quickly. I'd say I did a decent job of stopping them from getting to Ashe (I think she had 2 deaths by the end of the game?), but Blitz could run into our tower's range, grab one of us, let Draven melt us, then run out before dying. Late game Draven literally did 90% damage to Ashe in two hits.
I haven't run into too many Draven+Blitz lanes, but they don't seem to be countered by my standard "pick Leona, stun harder" strategy for Blitz; Draven does too much damage for that. Hiding behind minions is alright, until Blitz decides to pop his steroid and chase you past them.
Maybe Taric would work for the defensive aura and ranged stun? Graves would probably be a decent carry against it, because of his burst and tankiness.
If I'm playing AD against a blitz lane and I haven't picked yet, I go Sivir and laugh at him. If I'm playing support against blitz, I go Taric and tell my AD to go Graves. It's just too much armor for them to handle, and when blitz pulls me, I'll stun his AD, shatter and ult on both of them, and me and Graves will double them easily.
Does anyone have any tips for mid lane? I can at least function, sometimes successfully, in every role except mid. for some reason mids, and i just don't click. prechange i ran ryze frequently, and just recently picked up anivia. I can farm pretty well pre 6, post 6 anivia farm is easy mode, but beyond farming i can't seem to play the lane right. Is mid usually just a push lane, and then gank kind of lane?
It depends on your mid. Ryze is most definitely not a push-then-gank kind of lane until he has some CDR behind him, as he can only push with his ult. Sion, on the other hand, is most definitely a 'nuke minion wave, roam top or bot for ganks constantly' sorta guy, as is Ahri. Morde is more of a 'nuke minion wave, take your wraiths or their wraiths', as his ganks aren't that great unless he has Rylai's, then they're still not amazing.
Sometimes, you want to farm under your tower, but that leads to the opposing mid roaming sometimes, and make for easier jungle ganks. Sometimes, you just want to push to their tower while they're not there to make them lose lots of farm, then take their jungle or gank a sidelane. It depends entirely on your teamcomp, their teamcomp, and how the game's going.
Mid these days works kind of like this: take creep wave, take wraiths, take creep waves, take wolves, take creep wave, etc. Steal their wraiths if you can safely get away with it. Don't bother ganking side lanes unless they either don't have wards or you can safely go through their jungle and come up behind them (or you are TF). Ward their wraith ramp (alternatively your curved brush opposite their wraith ramp) and their curved brush opposite your wraith ramp. Play conservatively unless you know where their jungler is or you have solid ward coverage (solid ward coverage doesn't matter vs. nocturne because he can just come through the lane beyond your sight range). If your jungler ganks for you try to initiate with whatever cc you have.
I do not recommend Anivia for the inexperienced, she has a very high skillcap. Ryze is extremely effective and has a lower skillcap due to only using targeted abilities, so he's probably a better "my first mid laner" character. However, note that he does not build nor function like most other mid laners. Also, don't be afraid to use Ryze's ult just to push creeps mid or take a jungle camp; every time you use your q it lowers the cd on all your other abilities by 1 second so your ult will pretty much always be up when it needs to be. When you're comboing with Ryze, try to alternate between q and his other abilities for maximum damage over time. For example, in a team fight, you might combo q r q e q w q. Lane harass might go q w q e q. For quick burst (say when a jungler is ganking for you) you might combo q w e q to get the second q off faster. If you want my whole Ryze set up I can post that too, but that goes pretty far beyond general mid lane tips.
I wouldn't walk all the way to take wolves as a mid, just wraiths, but that's me. I agree with the rest of what's here. If the top/bot have good ward coverage you won't be able to gank those lanes, but that's a big if. Your support/top should be trying to pay attention to when their lane opponents ward to let you/your jungle know.
Also, Ryze's passive lowers the cooldown on all other spells any time he casts any spells, not just Q, so it's even better than that. It makes his ult CD insanely low, and is the reason he can machine gun his spells so fast, especially with blue buff.
Does anyone have any tips for mid lane? I can at least function, sometimes successfully, in every role except mid. for some reason mids, and i just don't click. prechange i ran ryze frequently, and just recently picked up anivia. I can farm pretty well pre 6, post 6 anivia farm is easy mode, but beyond farming i can't seem to play the lane right. Is mid usually just a push lane, and then gank kind of lane?
It depends on your mid. Ryze is most definitely not a push-then-gank kind of lane until he has some CDR behind him, as he can only push with his ult. Sion, on the other hand, is most definitely a 'nuke minion wave, roam top or bot for ganks constantly' sorta guy, as is Ahri. Morde is more of a 'nuke minion wave, take your wraiths or their wraiths', as his ganks aren't that great unless he has Rylai's, then they're still not amazing.
Sometimes, you want to farm under your tower, but that leads to the opposing mid roaming sometimes, and make for easier jungle ganks. Sometimes, you just want to push to their tower while they're not there to make them lose lots of farm, then take their jungle or gank a sidelane. It depends entirely on your teamcomp, their teamcomp, and how the game's going.
Mid these days works kind of like this: take creep wave, take wraiths, take creep waves, take wolves, take creep wave, etc. Steal their wraiths if you can safely get away with it. Don't bother ganking side lanes unless they either don't have wards or you can safely go through their jungle and come up behind them (or you are TF). Ward their wraith ramp (alternatively your curved brush opposite their wraith ramp) and their curved brush opposite your wraith ramp. Play conservatively unless you know where their jungler is or you have solid ward coverage (solid ward coverage doesn't matter vs. nocturne because he can just come through the lane beyond your sight range). If your jungler ganks for you try to initiate with whatever cc you have.
I do not recommend Anivia for the inexperienced, she has a very high skillcap. Ryze is extremely effective and has a lower skillcap due to only using targeted abilities, so he's probably a better "my first mid laner" character. However, note that he does not build nor function like most other mid laners. Also, don't be afraid to use Ryze's ult just to push creeps mid or take a jungle camp; every time you use your q it lowers the cd on all your other abilities by 1 second so your ult will pretty much always be up when it needs to be. When you're comboing with Ryze, try to alternate between q and his other abilities for maximum damage over time. For example, in a team fight, you might combo q r q e q w q. Lane harass might go q w q e q. For quick burst (say when a jungler is ganking for you) you might combo q w e q to get the second q off faster. If you want my whole Ryze set up I can post that too, but that goes pretty far beyond general mid lane tips.
I wouldn't walk all the way to take wolves as a mid, just wraiths, but that's me. I agree with the rest of what's here. If the top/bot have good ward coverage you won't be able to gank those lanes, but that's a big if. Your support/top should be trying to pay attention to when their lane opponents ward to let you/your jungle know.
Also, Ryze's passive lowers the cooldown on all other spells any time he casts any spells, not just Q, so it's even better than that. It makes his ult CD insanely low, and is the reason he can machine gun his spells so fast, especially with blue buff.
Oh, d'oh, that's right, I was thinking Ezreal when I said that. Taking wolves doesn't really take much longer (if at all) than taking wraiths, so if they're up and wraiths aren't you should have plenty of time to go down and nab them.
Wait, is mid taking their own wolves and wraiths during lane phase the acceptable strategy these days? Because it's pretty infuriating when I'm a jungler and my mid does that. If they've taken into account whether I'm likely to be near those camps soon it's fine, but when I've seen mids doing it they generally haven't.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
Wait, is mid taking their own wolves and wraiths during lane phase the acceptable strategy these days? Because it's pretty infuriating when I'm a jungler and my mid does that. If they've taken into account whether I'm likely to be near those camps soon it's fine, but when I've seen mids doing it they generally haven't.
It's generally accepted that mid should be farming the shit out of their own wraiths. If they are very aggressive they can farm their wraiths AND the opponents wraiths.
Wait, is mid taking their own wolves and wraiths during lane phase the acceptable strategy these days? Because it's pretty infuriating when I'm a jungler and my mid does that. If they've taken into account whether I'm likely to be near those camps soon it's fine, but when I've seen mids doing it they generally haven't.
Not just acceptable, but standard for a lot of mids (especially Karthus). I mean, it's probably bad form to take them if your jungler is right there, but the camps respawn so quickly that it's generally not a big deal. If your jungle is spending any time ganking or counter jungling they won't miss the camps and if they're spending all their time clearing their own jungle (which they would have to for them to even miss those camps) then they aren't very good junglers.
Mid should take their wraiths if the jungler won't be there in the next minute, basically, but there comes a point in laning phase where the mid should take them every time they're up if their lane is pushed, because by then the jungler already has their core and is probably just setting up a gank anyway. Typically mids won't start taking them until a little ways in anyway, because they'd just lose their own CS and too much health trying to take them before they get levels/some items. Pretty much, by the time the mid can clear them without taxing their mana/health or losing CS in lane, the jungler doesn't need small camps every spawn, and will likely be ganking and letting them sit there anyway.
With how fast camps respawn, I really don't mind them taking them every time once the game has been going a little bit, but they better only be doing it once they've shoved an entire wave and would otherwise just be sitting there, because if they're losing CS to take wraiths, that's just dumb, and I have seen bad mids do this.
I've never seen a mid take wolves, as like I said, the walk to wolves from mid is a bit longer, and you're more likely to lose CS from lane doing that, but I can only speak for myself(and mids I watch on streams who only do their own/enemy wraiths).
Hey guys, how would you jungle Fizz, if you were going to jungle Fizz? I see guides for tanky AD, but I feel like you could almost just say screw it, start cloth/5, maybe build razors, then get Sheen and continue on as though you were an AP Mid. Gonna play some bot games tonight and see.
I like jungle fizz!
I do a 21/9/0 mastery (AP on the offensive side), runes with flat ap quints, armor yellows, cd blues, and mpen reds
do cloth+5, start at blue, get a leash
skilling is wqwe -- you can gank at 2 if there's a good opportunity, otherwise wait until 4 so you have trickster to chase/escape
I usually do the full wriggles first, and then go mpen boots, roa, sheen, partyhat
ganks get better once you hit 6, obvi, but you can still be successful before then with coordination
Sometimes as a jungle i tell mid to take our wolves instead of wraiths if i'm babysitting top and were purple. But generally after the initial clears mid should be burning my wraiths down.
Mid should take their wraiths if the jungler won't be there in the next minute, basically, but there comes a point in laning phase where the mid should take them every time they're up if their lane is pushed, because by then the jungler already has their core and is probably just setting up a gank anyway. Typically mids won't start taking them until a little ways in anyway, because they'd just lose their own CS and too much health trying to take them before they get levels/some items. Pretty much, by the time the mid can clear them without taxing their mana/health or losing CS in lane, the jungler doesn't need small camps every spawn, and will likely be ganking and letting them sit there anyway.
With how fast camps respawn, I really don't mind them taking them every time once the game has been going a little bit, but they better only be doing it once they've shoved an entire wave and would otherwise just be sitting there, because if they're losing CS to take wraiths, that's just dumb, and I have seen bad mids do this.
I've never seen a mid take wolves, as like I said, the walk to wolves from mid is a bit longer, and you're more likely to lose CS from lane doing that, but I can only speak for myself(and mids I watch on streams who only do their own/enemy wraiths).
Obviously don't miss lane cs to take jungle creeps, but taking wolves is still feasible. I see AlexIch who is the AP mid player for M5 do it all the time.
I guess if somehow your lane was pushed and wraiths were already down I'd do it, but I'd think you would rarely have a situation where you could take wraiths then wolves without missing lane CS. I've never seen anybody on streams and what not take wolves during laning, but that's not to say you shouldn't do it. I just wouldn't do it if wraiths were up, and I definitely wouldn't do wraiths then wolves without going back to lane first, unless I already took their tower and it was crazy pushed in and I was worried about overextending, but by then laning is over.
Fizz is better in lane than he is in the jungle imo, but I'm a fan of having somebody with initiation and tankiness out of the jungle. I've seen Fizz jungle work very well, so it's obviously fine, just doesn't fit my style.
I guess if somehow your lane was pushed and wraiths were already down I'd do it, but I'd think you would rarely have a situation where you could take wraiths then wolves without missing lane CS. I've never seen anybody on streams and what not take wolves during laning, but that's not to say you shouldn't do it. I just wouldn't do it if wraiths were up, and I definitely wouldn't do wraiths then wolves without going back to lane first, unless I already took their tower and it was crazy pushed in and I was worried about overextending, but by then laning is over.
It's not that rare of a situation, really. If you're playing a champion that can push hard and you took wraiths before the most recent wave, they won't be up again before the next wave hits, which is precisely the situation in which you might take wolves. I do it a lot on Karthus, Galio, Morgana, and anyone else who can push really hard.
So... what's a person do against Tryndamere in 3v3? I can run Bloodrazor's against Mundo or Singed but I don't have a clue who to run or what to do against him.
So... what's a person do against Tryndamere in 3v3? I can run Bloodrazor's against Mundo or Singed but I don't have a clue who to run or what to do against him.
I imagine Nasus could do pretty well by withering him and running away until his ult wears off
I guess if somehow your lane was pushed and wraiths were already down I'd do it, but I'd think you would rarely have a situation where you could take wraiths then wolves without missing lane CS. I've never seen anybody on streams and what not take wolves during laning, but that's not to say you shouldn't do it. I just wouldn't do it if wraiths were up, and I definitely wouldn't do wraiths then wolves without going back to lane first, unless I already took their tower and it was crazy pushed in and I was worried about overextending, but by then laning is over.
It's not that rare of a situation, really. If you're playing a champion that can push hard and you took wraiths before the most recent wave, they won't be up again before the next wave hits, which is precisely the situation in which you might take wolves. I do it a lot on Karthus, Galio, Morgana, and anyone else who can push really hard.
Seems like the timing of just having taken wraiths, then pushing a wave that just arrived, and wraiths not being back up so you can go to wolves to get them wouldn't come up that many times during a game, but hey, even if it's only a few times a game that's free CS. I appreciate you bringing it up, because I hadn't really thought to try it, and I'll watch for these opportunities.
So... what's a person do against Tryndamere in 3v3? I can run Bloodrazor's against Mundo or Singed but I don't have a clue who to run or what to do against him.
Teemo or Malphite should have a pretty easy time beating him in lane.
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
Had a rough game with Poultree, Kay and a few others last night. Our bot was Ashe and Leona versus Draven and Blitz, their team got first blood on a jungle invade, and it just turned horrible very quickly. I'd say I did a decent job of stopping them from getting to Ashe (I think she had 2 deaths by the end of the game?), but Blitz could run into our tower's range, grab one of us, let Draven melt us, then run out before dying. Late game Draven literally did 90% damage to Ashe in two hits.
I haven't run into too many Draven+Blitz lanes, but they don't seem to be countered by my standard "pick Leona, stun harder" strategy for Blitz; Draven does too much damage for that. Hiding behind minions is alright, until Blitz decides to pop his steroid and chase you past them.
Maybe Taric would work for the defensive aura and ranged stun? Graves would probably be a decent carry against it, because of his burst and tankiness.
It depends who picked first. Alistar is a fairly solid counter to Blitz lanes in general, and he has the heal to let you chip them down.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited June 2012
Hmmm. Draven/Janna lane seems oddly manageable if you toss Taric/Caitlyn down there. At least, my current experiments with support picks to alleviate the Janna/Draven retarded burst early game work rather well by picking Taric to buff your AD's armor. Janna/Draven have no hard CC outside of a (usually initial) knockup and in the meantime you can stun the Draven to interrupt his pillaging of your AD, while out sustaining them with your heal.
I suppose Soraka works as well, but that kind of removes your ability to aggressively pushback the Draven/Janna comp.
If you're picking support against blitz, I'd go Alistar or Taric, but not Leona. I want an advantage via extra armor/burst(Taric) or disengage/knockup/solid sustain(Alistar).
Just to pick up on Mid taking wraiths, wraiths have a shorter respawn time than the rest of the jungle camps so it's much more possible for mid to take them and not fuck over his jungler.
Yea. Mid taking wraiths has been the standard for high ELO play anyway.. It only really happens end of lane phase/when the ton of ganking starts to occur, and it's a good way to get a quick lead.. Kinda like some tops taking wraith's to start if their jungle starts blue, and bot taking golem's if their blue side..
I just got done with my first game as a jungle Ali.. Actually tried it in a ranked because that's how I roll, and went 4/0/8 when we were playing 4v5 for about 10 minutes when our swain disconned.. We still won. And man was Gou right about tri-force and sheen first.. I was pretty happy with sheen into GP/5 items, into boots upgrade, into tri force, but I might've gone the round about way. I'm really digging Ali from the jungle, though. He feels better than Nautilus even, imo. Esp if you can get a good heal/spead (Janna or Soraka) bot, or even more CC (I bet Leona + Ali could be an interesting team comp, and by interesting I mean face palm..) I'd really like to try something silly with a tryhard PA team with Kog or Karthus mid, a counter pick DPS or AP top, and the same bot because I think Jungle Ali + Leona with AP Kog and Rylai's, could get silly... I did notice some mana problems, but I could attribute that to me not putting any mana regen runes or masteries in.. I just built my philo earlier, and also took the 2nd blue since I was unable to steal theirs when I tried..
Anyway, got some work to do, but if anyone would like to play at, say, 11:45am PST I'm gonna be on and would love to get a group of 5 together.
So... what's a person do against Tryndamere in 3v3? I can run Bloodrazor's against Mundo or Singed but I don't have a clue who to run or what to do against him.
Teemo or Malphite should have a pretty easy time beating him in lane.
Yea, Teemo has a slight adv, and malph a bigger.. I've been able to take Teemo by playing smart and engaging well as Trynd, but that was a while ago, and I think his Q has gotten nerfed, so it might be closer to Teemo's favor.. Malph on the other hand.. I'd recommend building an earlyish Wit's end to help soak some of the damage + increase fury and last hits time investment.
A good teemo will kite trynd all day. Spin to win? Blind. Still chasing? Pop speed boost. He slows you? Drop a shroom and keep running, all the while attack moving and hitting him while he's not in melee range. Malph would still be a better pick against him though.
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So after a little bit of screwing around, my thought is that you don't really have to go tanky ad to get solid clears because his passive is really solid vs. jungle creeps. So then you've got ganks somewhat worse than Mundo's pre-6 and clears substantially worse than Mundo's for most of the game, but at least you don't sacrifice your endgame?
I turned it off a couple days ago and I'm thinking it's better this way!
Yeah, I'd rather just take Fizz mid and abuse my lane opponent
I haven't run into too many Draven+Blitz lanes, but they don't seem to be countered by my standard "pick Leona, stun harder" strategy for Blitz; Draven does too much damage for that. Hiding behind minions is alright, until Blitz decides to pop his steroid and chase you past them.
Maybe Taric would work for the defensive aura and ranged stun? Graves would probably be a decent carry against it, because of his burst and tankiness.
And yeah, that game went to hell in a handbasket quickly. The jungle invade netted Draven a double kill, delayed Jax from getting to top lane before Kayle hit 2, then Kayle just totalled Jax under his tower thanks to Q+E.
Apart from the shitty start, it went okay. It depends on your mid. Ryze is most definitely not a push-then-gank kind of lane until he has some CDR behind him, as he can only push with his ult. Sion, on the other hand, is most definitely a 'nuke minion wave, roam top or bot for ganks constantly' sorta guy, as is Ahri. Morde is more of a 'nuke minion wave, take your wraiths or their wraiths', as his ganks aren't that great unless he has Rylai's, then they're still not amazing.
Sometimes, you want to farm under your tower, but that leads to the opposing mid roaming sometimes, and make for easier jungle ganks. Sometimes, you just want to push to their tower while they're not there to make them lose lots of farm, then take their jungle or gank a sidelane. It depends entirely on your teamcomp, their teamcomp, and how the game's going.
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Shyvana is a lot of fun. She does good damage and gets tanky. Take exhaust/smite for when you're ganking a lane that has no CC of their own, but you can gank surprisingly easy with her without the CC if you take the right path in. She does enough damage to make up for it. I also don't care for Mundo, and typically go Shyvana/Olaf if I'm going to be aggressively counter jungling.
Derped, I meant MR. It certainly doesn't hurt that wit's end is one of the first items you build on Irelia. Also, if he's pushing with E, you'd be very surprised at how large of a wave of his I can freeze right outside my tower. He's just not that hard to lane against as Irelia. Not somebody I'd expect to kill without ganks unless I zone him hard enough to get levels on him, but I will out CS a malphite and out trade him. If I don't, I will consider myself outplayed, but it's definitely not a matchup I'm afraid of, and in my experience with it, I have no reason to be.
Not pushing the lane is the best, but it's actually surprisingly easy to escape ganks with Irelia against most people. Fake like you're running to the tower, bladesurge back to a minion and run down river. Gank denied. Also, my first items on Irelia are typically HoG, Phage, and Wit's end and I run 9/21, so I can run away from a gank without even using flash most of the time unless i'm overextended a mile, but I also ward, so I rarely ever die to ganks.
Skarner does pretty good damage, and perma slows you. You have to ward the entrances to your jungle, at all times, and your top/mid/bot should be ready to react as soon as they see him enter your jungle. It's the only defense against an aggressive counter jungler who can 1v1 you if you meet.
Mid these days works kind of like this: take creep wave, take wraiths, take creep waves, take wolves, take creep wave, etc. Steal their wraiths if you can safely get away with it. Don't bother ganking side lanes unless they either don't have wards or you can safely go through their jungle and come up behind them (or you are TF). Ward their wraith ramp (alternatively your curved brush opposite their wraith ramp) and their curved brush opposite your wraith ramp. Play conservatively unless you know where their jungler is or you have solid ward coverage (solid ward coverage doesn't matter vs. nocturne because he can just come through the lane beyond your sight range). If your jungler ganks for you try to initiate with whatever cc you have.
I do not recommend Anivia for the inexperienced, she has a very high skillcap. Ryze is extremely effective and has a lower skillcap due to only using targeted abilities, so he's probably a better "my first mid laner" character. However, note that he does not build nor function like most other mid laners. Also, don't be afraid to use Ryze's ult just to push creeps mid or take a jungle camp; every time you use your q it lowers the cd on all your other abilities by 1 second so your ult will pretty much always be up when it needs to be. When you're comboing with Ryze, try to alternate between q and his other abilities for maximum damage over time. For example, in a team fight, you might combo q r q e q w q. Lane harass might go q w q e q. For quick burst (say when a jungler is ganking for you) you might combo q w e q to get the second q off faster. If you want my whole Ryze set up I can post that too, but that goes pretty far beyond general mid lane tips.
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It really depends on the mid you play. There are wildly different styles. There are mids that excel at killing their lane opponent or pushing and roaming, and there are mids that are just farmers. I like to play ones from the different camps. I'll play Ahri if I want to roam and gank a lot, Anivia if I want to farm and just try to kill my lane opponent if I can catch them with a combo and have good team fight zoning presence. I play Ryze because he's awesome, though I won't pick him against a strong pusher because pre 6 you can't push waves at all. I like Xerath sometimes too, though I haven't figured out what matchups I like and don't like him in. Probably my favorite mid is Twisted Fate though, because he can farm all day and if you coordinate ganks with your jungler(or just do it yourself) you WILL get kills on any lane that isn't hugging their tower, and honestly, you can just double kill bot lane with coordinated 4v2 tower dives too.
If I'm playing AD against a blitz lane and I haven't picked yet, I go Sivir and laugh at him. If I'm playing support against blitz, I go Taric and tell my AD to go Graves. It's just too much armor for them to handle, and when blitz pulls me, I'll stun his AD, shatter and ult on both of them, and me and Graves will double them easily.
I wouldn't walk all the way to take wolves as a mid, just wraiths, but that's me. I agree with the rest of what's here. If the top/bot have good ward coverage you won't be able to gank those lanes, but that's a big if. Your support/top should be trying to pay attention to when their lane opponents ward to let you/your jungle know.
Also, Ryze's passive lowers the cooldown on all other spells any time he casts any spells, not just Q, so it's even better than that. It makes his ult CD insanely low, and is the reason he can machine gun his spells so fast, especially with blue buff.
Oh, d'oh, that's right, I was thinking Ezreal when I said that. Taking wolves doesn't really take much longer (if at all) than taking wraiths, so if they're up and wraiths aren't you should have plenty of time to go down and nab them.
It's generally accepted that mid should be farming the shit out of their own wraiths. If they are very aggressive they can farm their wraiths AND the opponents wraiths.
Not just acceptable, but standard for a lot of mids (especially Karthus). I mean, it's probably bad form to take them if your jungler is right there, but the camps respawn so quickly that it's generally not a big deal. If your jungle is spending any time ganking or counter jungling they won't miss the camps and if they're spending all their time clearing their own jungle (which they would have to for them to even miss those camps) then they aren't very good junglers.
With how fast camps respawn, I really don't mind them taking them every time once the game has been going a little bit, but they better only be doing it once they've shoved an entire wave and would otherwise just be sitting there, because if they're losing CS to take wraiths, that's just dumb, and I have seen bad mids do this.
I've never seen a mid take wolves, as like I said, the walk to wolves from mid is a bit longer, and you're more likely to lose CS from lane doing that, but I can only speak for myself(and mids I watch on streams who only do their own/enemy wraiths).
I like jungle fizz!
I do a 21/9/0 mastery (AP on the offensive side), runes with flat ap quints, armor yellows, cd blues, and mpen reds
do cloth+5, start at blue, get a leash
skilling is wqwe -- you can gank at 2 if there's a good opportunity, otherwise wait until 4 so you have trickster to chase/escape
I usually do the full wriggles first, and then go mpen boots, roa, sheen, partyhat
ganks get better once you hit 6, obvi, but you can still be successful before then with coordination
Obviously don't miss lane cs to take jungle creeps, but taking wolves is still feasible. I see AlexIch who is the AP mid player for M5 do it all the time.
It's not that rare of a situation, really. If you're playing a champion that can push hard and you took wraiths before the most recent wave, they won't be up again before the next wave hits, which is precisely the situation in which you might take wolves. I do it a lot on Karthus, Galio, Morgana, and anyone else who can push really hard.
I imagine Nasus could do pretty well by withering him and running away until his ult wears off
Seems like the timing of just having taken wraiths, then pushing a wave that just arrived, and wraiths not being back up so you can go to wolves to get them wouldn't come up that many times during a game, but hey, even if it's only a few times a game that's free CS. I appreciate you bringing it up, because I hadn't really thought to try it, and I'll watch for these opportunities.
Teemo or Malphite should have a pretty easy time beating him in lane.
I suppose Soraka works as well, but that kind of removes your ability to aggressively pushback the Draven/Janna comp.
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I just got done with my first game as a jungle Ali.. Actually tried it in a ranked because that's how I roll, and went 4/0/8 when we were playing 4v5 for about 10 minutes when our swain disconned.. We still won. And man was Gou right about tri-force and sheen first.. I was pretty happy with sheen into GP/5 items, into boots upgrade, into tri force, but I might've gone the round about way. I'm really digging Ali from the jungle, though. He feels better than Nautilus even, imo. Esp if you can get a good heal/spead (Janna or Soraka) bot, or even more CC (I bet Leona + Ali could be an interesting team comp, and by interesting I mean face palm..) I'd really like to try something silly with a tryhard PA team with Kog or Karthus mid, a counter pick DPS or AP top, and the same bot because I think Jungle Ali + Leona with AP Kog and Rylai's, could get silly... I did notice some mana problems, but I could attribute that to me not putting any mana regen runes or masteries in.. I just built my philo earlier, and also took the 2nd blue since I was unable to steal theirs when I tried..
Anyway, got some work to do, but if anyone would like to play at, say, 11:45am PST I'm gonna be on and would love to get a group of 5 together.
Yea, Teemo has a slight adv, and malph a bigger.. I've been able to take Teemo by playing smart and engaging well as Trynd, but that was a while ago, and I think his Q has gotten nerfed, so it might be closer to Teemo's favor.. Malph on the other hand.. I'd recommend building an earlyish Wit's end to help soak some of the damage + increase fury and last hits time investment.