The one Dhal is talking about is fast conc shell. The regular pressure version brings 2 SCVs, and the heavy pressure version brings 4. If you bring 4 you're guaranteed a bunker if he tries to wait at the top of the ramp for reinforcements before defending the nexus, so he's forced to fight you with his initial warp-in, which is a fight you'll almost certainly win.
2Rax isn't popular because maps are really large now, you can't hit the warp gate timing on something like Metropolis. It is still the ideal build for small maps with difficult to defend naturals such as Metal or Dual Sight though.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
The thing is that 2rax reactor first USED to have an easy counter. If you scouted any sign of a reactor, you would chrono out your first two stalkers after a zealot and go pressure the front of his base - he would usually only have the one marine that he made before starting the reactor, and they take a long long time to build. That would put him off his tempo and cut down his marine count a bit early, maybe even cost him a depot if he didn't defend well. Then you'd just make two gates and chrono warpgate thrice before expanding, and obliterate the push as soon as it came, then counterattack with a proxy pylon to force several bunkers, putting him even further behind. It was all very easy and neat.
But maps are bigger now than they were back when 2rax was all the rage on maps like Xel'Naga Caverns and the second and third marines are out, or almost out, when the zealot + stalker arrive, which shuts down the pressure entirely. Even a smaller map by today's standards, such as Cloud Kingdom, is longer than Xel'Naga Caverns was. You can still get the warpin to fight, but usually the bunker is half done or nearly done by then and you really can't spare the DPS time to focus it down.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
i don't think blizzard would ever implement it anyway since they'd have to retune aoe around that change and that's way too much effort for them to ever bother with
So. I have been rising in my 2v2 bracket, just hit 5th, bronze. I step into 1v1 and do OK on my placement matches, loose 2 win 3. Places me Platinum. Now, that's neat and all, but I don't really think I'm a platinum player, I feel like I should just leave 1v1 alone so I can be all smug about it, with three wins :rotate:
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited July 2012
If you really don't belong in Platinum, it will fix you up quickly, within 20-30 games. At low numbers of games played the matchmaking system is very willing to move you around between leagues with very few games because it isn't very certain of your skill level yet.
If he did it the way someone did it before it doesn't actually work. Because he just jacked up the collision size.
I had another idea on how to do it, and never got around to trying. So I'm dubious if it works without issue. The problem is you'd have to change stuff that goes beyond the editor to make it really improve the quality of unit movement.
But the idea of units optionally not descending on a point is objectively better, its shocking and horrifying how opposed people are to positive change. Like what? Mine as well pack it in and quit if people don't like incorporating things that are just better.
If you really don't belong in Platinum, it will fix you up quickly, within 20-30 games. At low numbers of games played the matchmaking system is very willing to move you around between leagues with very few games because it isn't very certain of your skill level yet.
Yeah. But I have the cool platinum shield by my name!
I've just learned that the Chinese SC2 client's terran voices were localized into the Chinese language equivalent of the southerners that we got in the English client.
So, that's cool.
kedinik on
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SmasherStarting to get dizzyRegistered Userregular
If he did it the way someone did it before it doesn't actually work. Because he just jacked up the collision size.
I had another idea on how to do it, and never got around to trying. So I'm dubious if it works without issue. The problem is you'd have to change stuff that goes beyond the editor to make it really improve the quality of unit movement.
But the idea of units optionally not descending on a point is objectively better, its shocking and horrifying how opposed people are to positive change. Like what? Mine as well pack it in and quit if people don't like incorporating things that are just better.
Must watch! That is if you care about personalities eclipsing infastructure.
Also can I make the next thread? I want to update the shitty links at the top.
And re: the unit movement, there's more to it then what was shown. There's a lot of edge cases where changing the pathfinding variables that much may cause problems.
That video is so awkward due to all of the angry airing of dirty laundry while Carmac the consummate professional King of European eSports sits there looking quietly embarrassed for them.
kedinik on
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i think, from his complaints, that a lot of what went bad initially was bad communication with sponsors (mostly on the sponsor side). the caster situation is reprehensible if that line of communication is what happened, and i feel sorry for the dude, because earning the ire of a lot of fans for basically no real fault of his own sucks. plus inappropriate payouts for a certain caster, salt in the wound.
but like, the part where he is complaining about kingston and being stingy about players? kingston also sponsored dreamhack. plus scheduling an event during dreamhack seems kind of dumb.
i dunno, the event obviously didn't really take off and i don't think its necessarily due to the organizers -- which is good, because a lot of esports events are poisoned by their organizers. but an amalgmation of little things kind of hampered it, and it was going against a giant.
plus, they seemed to suggest they hit numbers they needed to, so it wasn't an abject failure. but obviously didn't establish a brand like other events.
i don't really get what you mean by "personalities eclipsing infrastructure" -- i assume you are talking somewhat about things like the idra situation, but i don't understand what you mean by infrastructure.
Well, it's pretty obvious Kingston is chummy with EG, just look at the ads. So I will always be cynical when there's a connection between the two. I mean, that EG caster getting the royal treatment? Man, that's some scummy stuff going on there and EG is involved. Oh that's a surprise.
What happened was shitty and he's a bigger man than I for not ruining an event over it. I would have pulled that shit and told them to go fuck themselves.
edit: I think he means by infrastructure is building a bigger fan base or foundation for SC2. Here, we have an example of "big" names pulling weight because oh look we so good, over promoting a new event and maybe expanding esports (the infrastructure).
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
A sponsor being chummy with the person they are sponsoring? Gasp shock horror unprofessional!
maybe there is more to it that makes it bad but i dont really see whats bad about giving good treatment to the people you sponsor
Things like this and less minerals/gas per base are cool ideas, but they're meaningless. Blizzard is never, ever going to change the base mechanics of the game.
A sponsor being chummy with the person they are sponsoring? Gasp shock horror unprofessional!
maybe there is more to it that makes it bad but i dont really see whats bad about giving good treatment to the people you sponsor
Well, I see a difference between good treatment and the treatment between Kingston and EG. Maybe it's just due to proximity that EG guys chill at Kingston offices or joke with the CEO of the company in advertisements, maybe they are just nice guys, but from the reality of business I can't shake that there's some under-handed "agreement" between the two forces. And I can't help but think that's what we saw during the Gigabyte LAN fiasco.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
A sponsor being chummy with the person they are sponsoring? Gasp shock horror unprofessional!
maybe there is more to it that makes it bad but i dont really see whats bad about giving good treatment to the people you sponsor
Well, I see a difference between good treatment and the treatment between Kingston and EG. Maybe it's just due to proximity that EG guys chill at Kingston offices or joke with the CEO of the company in advertisements, maybe they are just nice guys, but from the reality of business I can't shake that there's some under-handed "agreement" between the two forces. And I can't help but think that's what we saw during the Gigabyte LAN fiasco.
What examples of such treatment between Kingston and EG do you mean?
Chilling at the sponsor's office doesn't seem that "dirty" to me. Maybe goes a bit beyond what you'd expect, but if they get along well, why not?
And what possible nature could this "underhanded" agreement take? What possible thing could they be doing that is so bad that they need to keep it secret and underhanded?
A sponsor being chummy with the person they are sponsoring? Gasp shock horror unprofessional!
maybe there is more to it that makes it bad but i dont really see whats bad about giving good treatment to the people you sponsor
Well, I see a difference between good treatment and the treatment between Kingston and EG. Maybe it's just due to proximity that EG guys chill at Kingston offices or joke with the CEO of the company in advertisements, maybe they are just nice guys, but from the reality of business I can't shake that there's some under-handed "agreement" between the two forces. And I can't help but think that's what we saw during the Gigabyte LAN fiasco.
What examples of such treatment between Kingston and EG do you mean?
Chilling at the sponsor's office doesn't seem that "dirty" to me. Maybe goes a bit beyond what you'd expect, but if they get along well, why not?
And what possible nature could this "underhanded" agreement take? What possible thing could they be doing that is so bad that they need to keep it secret and underhanded?
What about the Kingston/EG thing at the Gigabyte LAN? That sounded like an easy way for Kingston to push EG onto an event and award them more money than they should have. Things like that, where sponsors shove people onto the scene, grate on my nerves.
The advertisements might be benign, I know. But what other advertisements do you see where an esports team is that close to a sponsor? Plus, I always question EG's motives because I have no idea where they get all their money from. And, to me, that's disheartening because they are such a big force in SC2.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I dunno.
Maybe I just find it hard to get outraged at stuff like that. It really doesn't affect me in the slightest if EG and Kingston have a too-close relationship, and outrage is hard work.
A sponsor being chummy with the person they are sponsoring? Gasp shock horror unprofessional!
maybe there is more to it that makes it bad but i dont really see whats bad about giving good treatment to the people you sponsor
Well, I see a difference between good treatment and the treatment between Kingston and EG. Maybe it's just due to proximity that EG guys chill at Kingston offices or joke with the CEO of the company in advertisements, maybe they are just nice guys, but from the reality of business I can't shake that there's some under-handed "agreement" between the two forces. And I can't help but think that's what we saw during the Gigabyte LAN fiasco.
What examples of such treatment between Kingston and EG do you mean?
Chilling at the sponsor's office doesn't seem that "dirty" to me. Maybe goes a bit beyond what you'd expect, but if they get along well, why not?
And what possible nature could this "underhanded" agreement take? What possible thing could they be doing that is so bad that they need to keep it secret and underhanded?
What about the Kingston/EG thing at the Gigabyte LAN? That sounded like an easy way for Kingston to push EG onto an event and award them more money than they should have. Things like that, where sponsors shove people onto the scene, grate on my nerves.
The advertisements might be benign, I know. But what other advertisements do you see where an esports team is that close to a sponsor? Plus, I always question EG's motives because I have no idea where they get all their money from. And, to me, that's disheartening because they are such a big force in SC2.
I'd assume the money comes from their myriad of high profile sponsors.
EG has a big six figure sponsorship from Intel that they got when all the good Counter Strike teams went to the CPL and had to give up their independent sponsors. EG was just at the fringe at that time. Then the CPL folded and EG was winning the money gamez(despite being owned by a moron).
After that the single giant sponsorship allowed them to get others. Including Monster, which is likely well into six figures too.
Also SirScoots got involved with them and is a single, fairly wealthy older fellow who like bought an extra mansion for their players to chill in, it seems. So that shit helps.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited July 2012
Yeah, I mean, Kingston, Monster and Intel aren't exactly small companies. The budgets will be substantial.
I feel like the major companies/sponsors basically just throw money at SC2 for fun, seeing where it will go (and not really expecting a return on their investments so to speak). Am I totally off the mark on that?
it's definitely a venture investment. i doubt any large tech giant, like intel or gigabyte, are using this as more than a minor sunk cost for pr and a sort of the 1% of your money you invest in high risk things -- not afraid to lose the money.
of course, they want to be in on the ground floor, in case it takes off explosively. but its nice to have money in the scene, regardless of its meaning -- as long as that money doesn't oppressively impose itself (kind of what happened to gesl vis a vis their sponsors)
I feel like the major companies/sponsors basically just throw money at SC2 for fun, seeing where it will go (and not really expecting a return on their investments so to speak). Am I totally off the mark on that?
There may be some of that in there, but its also possibly them investing a small amount of money to see where it goes. The scene isn't really developed well enough yet for companies to be able to estimate their return on investment from advertising/marketing/sponsorships - and estimating that is difficult enough in developed industries let alone new ones like esports.
That's why you don't see players with massive six or seven figure salaries like you do in mainstream sports. Not only is the audience not there yet, but the sponsors can't see a clear path of return on investment because of the newness of the whole scene.
the mainstream sports thing isn't that good of an example, i feel, because there aren't enough players who are good enough to swing around their free agency hard enough to command that kind of money
the mainstream sports thing isn't that good of an example, i feel, because there aren't enough players who are good enough to swing around their free agency hard enough to command that kind of money
but there are. the best players in a scene are always the best players in a scene, regardless of how objectively good they are. but there just isn't enough weight to the scene to justify the bigger outlay.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Also SirScoots got involved with them and is a single, fairly wealthy older fellow who like bought an extra mansion for their players to chill in, it seems. So that shit helps.
Mortgage on a decent sized house in Arizona is usually pretty cheap. Would expect that sponsor money covers that.
kedinik on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
on the video raptor posted, that's not a sponsor treating their people well. they created a demand for a caster, placed their own person and then set the price. that's fucked up, collusion or some shit :P
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either way I don't believe it's anywhere near a guarantee of equalizing economies with a FE protoss.
o u 8->
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the more games i watch, the more i'm starting to think that most terrans lose to zerg cause they just play like idiots
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Also,
Edit: NOW!
2Rax isn't popular because maps are really large now, you can't hit the warp gate timing on something like Metropolis. It is still the ideal build for small maps with difficult to defend naturals such as Metal or Dual Sight though.
But maps are bigger now than they were back when 2rax was all the rage on maps like Xel'Naga Caverns and the second and third marines are out, or almost out, when the zealot + stalker arrive, which shuts down the pressure entirely. Even a smaller map by today's standards, such as Cloud Kingdom, is longer than Xel'Naga Caverns was. You can still get the warpin to fight, but usually the bunker is half done or nearly done by then and you really can't spare the DPS time to focus it down.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349968
i agree.
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If he did it the way someone did it before it doesn't actually work. Because he just jacked up the collision size.
I had another idea on how to do it, and never got around to trying. So I'm dubious if it works without issue. The problem is you'd have to change stuff that goes beyond the editor to make it really improve the quality of unit movement.
But the idea of units optionally not descending on a point is objectively better, its shocking and horrifying how opposed people are to positive change. Like what? Mine as well pack it in and quit if people don't like incorporating things that are just better.
Yeah. But I have the cool platinum shield by my name!
So, that's cool.
Watch the video at the 2:00 mark.
edit: go to 32 min, 10 sec
Must watch! That is if you care about personalities eclipsing infastructure.
Also can I make the next thread? I want to update the shitty links at the top.
And re: the unit movement, there's more to it then what was shown. There's a lot of edge cases where changing the pathfinding variables that much may cause problems.
but like, the part where he is complaining about kingston and being stingy about players? kingston also sponsored dreamhack. plus scheduling an event during dreamhack seems kind of dumb.
i dunno, the event obviously didn't really take off and i don't think its necessarily due to the organizers -- which is good, because a lot of esports events are poisoned by their organizers. but an amalgmation of little things kind of hampered it, and it was going against a giant.
plus, they seemed to suggest they hit numbers they needed to, so it wasn't an abject failure. but obviously didn't establish a brand like other events.
i don't really get what you mean by "personalities eclipsing infrastructure" -- i assume you are talking somewhat about things like the idra situation, but i don't understand what you mean by infrastructure.
What happened was shitty and he's a bigger man than I for not ruining an event over it. I would have pulled that shit and told them to go fuck themselves.
edit: I think he means by infrastructure is building a bigger fan base or foundation for SC2. Here, we have an example of "big" names pulling weight because oh look we so good, over promoting a new event and maybe expanding esports (the infrastructure).
maybe there is more to it that makes it bad but i dont really see whats bad about giving good treatment to the people you sponsor
Well, I see a difference between good treatment and the treatment between Kingston and EG. Maybe it's just due to proximity that EG guys chill at Kingston offices or joke with the CEO of the company in advertisements, maybe they are just nice guys, but from the reality of business I can't shake that there's some under-handed "agreement" between the two forces. And I can't help but think that's what we saw during the Gigabyte LAN fiasco.
What examples of such treatment between Kingston and EG do you mean?
Chilling at the sponsor's office doesn't seem that "dirty" to me. Maybe goes a bit beyond what you'd expect, but if they get along well, why not?
And what possible nature could this "underhanded" agreement take? What possible thing could they be doing that is so bad that they need to keep it secret and underhanded?
I'm always open to improving the OP. What shitty links would you like to see gone? I'll collaborate to make it better.
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What about the Kingston/EG thing at the Gigabyte LAN? That sounded like an easy way for Kingston to push EG onto an event and award them more money than they should have. Things like that, where sponsors shove people onto the scene, grate on my nerves.
The advertisements might be benign, I know. But what other advertisements do you see where an esports team is that close to a sponsor? Plus, I always question EG's motives because I have no idea where they get all their money from. And, to me, that's disheartening because they are such a big force in SC2.
Maybe I just find it hard to get outraged at stuff like that. It really doesn't affect me in the slightest if EG and Kingston have a too-close relationship, and outrage is hard work.
I'd assume the money comes from their myriad of high profile sponsors.
After that the single giant sponsorship allowed them to get others. Including Monster, which is likely well into six figures too.
Also SirScoots got involved with them and is a single, fairly wealthy older fellow who like bought an extra mansion for their players to chill in, it seems. So that shit helps.
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of course, they want to be in on the ground floor, in case it takes off explosively. but its nice to have money in the scene, regardless of its meaning -- as long as that money doesn't oppressively impose itself (kind of what happened to gesl vis a vis their sponsors)
There may be some of that in there, but its also possibly them investing a small amount of money to see where it goes. The scene isn't really developed well enough yet for companies to be able to estimate their return on investment from advertising/marketing/sponsorships - and estimating that is difficult enough in developed industries let alone new ones like esports.
That's why you don't see players with massive six or seven figure salaries like you do in mainstream sports. Not only is the audience not there yet, but the sponsors can't see a clear path of return on investment because of the newness of the whole scene.
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but there are. the best players in a scene are always the best players in a scene, regardless of how objectively good they are. but there just isn't enough weight to the scene to justify the bigger outlay.
agree, I made a similar post in the thread
Mortgage on a decent sized house in Arizona is usually pretty cheap. Would expect that sponsor money covers that.