"No Ads" means much more than "you don't have to use adblock". It means the site and content no longer needs to be structured around the assumption of "make people click here and here", or "people will have to stop here and see this". That plus a full-site Creative Commons license is pretty darn big in terms of how we can interact with the site content, the site, and stuff they currently do or will produce.
I dont hink it's exploititive at all. They're genuinely testing whether there's an appetite for it.
From their end, it would have a massive administrative overhead in terms of effort and oversight- it would be a huge relief for them to not have to manage it.
I'm a big fan of Penny Arcade, but interestingly - I dont care whether they have ads or not. I'm sure everyone says this, but I genuinely cant remember the last time I clicked on any banner on any website I visit regularly. So, for me, it isn't worth it, but I support their endeavour.
If they had being playing the card of "you've been getting all this for free, so dont you think you owe us?" - then it would be different. But they seem to have approached it with a candidness that's to be commended for any business.
Also, Khoo seems like a really sharp guy! So I'm guessing he verified all of Johnny Messageboard's "Is this a valid Kickstarter project?" questions before they went live with it.
It's interesting that they picked Comic Con week to do this - I like the throwing down the gauntlet aspect of it.
Per the Kickstarter FAQ: “Kickstarter is not a place for soliciting donations to causes, charity projects, or general business expenses.”
And per this project’s FAQ, they are fundraising to operate their website business for a year, including paying for, “rent, wages, health insurance, utilities”, which is otherwise paid for by advertising space they sell on their site.
Also from this project’s page, “if it doesn’t work [we] will be fine. We’ll keep going just like before…”
So instead of selling ads to cover business expenses, they’re using Kickstarter to cover those very same expenses? How is this a project? What creative work is being produced here?
How is this not providing funding for business operating expenses, something explicitly forbidden by Kickstarter?
...
But as it stands, that’s not what Kickstarter’s guidelines are, and I know people who’ve had projects rejected because Kickstarter forbids, “Fund My Life”-type projects, projects that allow creative people to not have to worry about money (as in this case, advertising money) and just create stuff. I don’t…quite…understand the difference here? So I’m hoping the Kickstarter team can clarify.
Do yourself a service and don't go through the twitter feed for that blog writer. Pure, unadulterated hate-on for Gabe/PA, it appears.
That being said, I don't feel like this is a KS Project, and agree that it doesn't meet the KS policies, nor it's intended use. They may have to seek some other way of amassing money like they have done previously.
Why does it matter if its technically the use for kickstarter or not? I mean if people are willing to pay it, and PA is being open about it, whats the harm in it being on kickstarter other than some mistaken belief in the purity of kickstarter. Is it not just a place people can go to to fund projects? Is that not what PA is doing?
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I hope you never eat out, or buy things from a local store because that's also those businesses model as well. And the burden is still on PA, its more on them, because if the fans don't like the product they won't continue to finance it!
If I walk into a store and buy something, I know exactly what Im getting at the time I'm buying it. This is different. This is a service Im getting for free, asking for donations and if I donate, I might.. or might not... get something big a shiny and cool, but they aren't going to tell you what it is. Where else in this messed up world would that work? Not at your local store, for sure.
In thier kickstarter they talk about how they almost went into the ditch about 11 years ago and had to ask for support. I was one of those people that supported them. I gave a monthly fee and in return Gabe would package up little kitschy stuff and send it out to the supporters. It started out as one page of a comic and you'd get the next page each month. So I've know exactly what I was paying for then.
My problem with this is a few fold:
1.) Like I said, I actually like the ads. They are actually targeting me correctly and I sincerly like seeing products that I had no idea about prior to coming to their site.
2.) They are well off now. As they said, they are making this comic with or without our finacial support. How much more freedom to they get if they are taking ad money from companies that they are already hand-selecting vs. taking it from thier fans. Also, and they may not have thought of this. But if I'm a fan that just gave them 70$ in the kickstarter to get the site going. Am I going to go back and give them another 30$ for a t-shirt later? I mean, we all only have so much disposable income. I generally like to spread it around a little and not give it all to one site. Just feels greedy to me.
3.) The whole premise of the kickstarter is two fold. First is to get rid of ads and be fan supported. The second is add a bunch of new services and products to the fans as stretch goals. These goals are unknown and you wont know until after you commit to putting your money down. This is a 14 person company and from what I understand, they are all working pretty hard to do what they do for us (the fans) already. Do they have bandwidth for more projects? Are they going to be able to keep whatever promise they make if they meet that stretch goal? This is the biggest flaw with Kickstarter and I have concerns that PA can fullfil it.
4.) This is for a year. They state in thier kickstarter that they will be back next year to do the same thing. PA is moving to the same support philosophy as public TV or public radio. That makes everyone of us responsable for the well being of PA. It almost sheds the burden off the people that are benefiting the most from this site (Tycho and Gabe).
1) Fair enough.
2) If you don't want to give them money, don't. There is absolutely nothing coercive about this. This isn't "send us money or we don't deliver our product", it's "send us money or absolutely nothing changes from the status quo". There is nothing coercive or exploitative about that other than in your head.
3) PA can run multiple enormous conventions and a worldwide charity (among other things) in addition to the M-W-F news posts and comics, but you're worried they won't be able to fulfill their obligation for whatever additional services they've decided to give us?
4) Yes, this is for a year. Next year if they decide to try this again it's completely up to us whether or not to support them again or go back to the exact same situation we have right now. This isn't "send us money or we don't deliver our product", it's "send us money or absolutely nothing changes from the status quo". There is nothing coercive or exploitative about that other than in your head.
I hope you never eat out, or buy things from a local store because that's also those businesses model as well. And the burden is still on PA, its more on them, because if the fans don't like the product they won't continue to finance it!
If I walk into a store and buy something, I know exactly what Im getting at the time I'm buying it. This is different. This is a service Im getting for free, asking for donations and if I donate, I might.. or might not... get something big a shiny and cool, but they aren't going to tell you what it is. Where else in this messed up world would that work? Not at your local store, for sure.
... You get "no more ads". "No more ads" in and of itself allows things to happen, and then you get "other bonus things like the Lookouts stuff" too. Sites that aren't ad-supported can do anything they want with content, navigation, and so forth; personally, I want PA to have that freedom.
If you don't feel like donating to turn PA into an ad-free site, well, don't. That's totally cool.
All the other kickstarter projects? I mean people have financed potential new sequels to long dead games that they have no idea if they are going to be worth the money put in, in the hope they can get a return.
Also even if you don't donate PA isn't going to become a pay site, if they hit their kickstarter PA will be free without ads and for the low low cost of you not having to pay anything. No obligation and all of the benefit of the ad free site. Those horrible fuckers.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Why does it matter if its technically the use for kickstarter or not? I mean if people are willing to pay it, and PA is being open about it, whats the harm in it being on kickstarter other than some mistaken belief in the purity of kickstarter. Is it not just a place people can go to to fund projects? Is that not what PA is doing?
Well for one, Amazon and Kickstarter are taking 15% total (I think its 7.5% amazon 7.5% kickstarter) a cut of the cash. So by funding PA, your also funding Amazon and Kickstarter. Not necessarily a bad thing, but does everyone that puts down a dollar for PA know that they only get $0.85? What if they just did it on their own, without having to bend any Kickstarter rules and had people donate directly?
I hope you never eat out, or buy things from a local store because that's also those businesses model as well. And the burden is still on PA, its more on them, because if the fans don't like the product they won't continue to finance it!
If I walk into a store and buy something, I know exactly what Im getting at the time I'm buying it. This is different. This is a service Im getting for free, asking for donations and if I donate, I might.. or might not... get something big a shiny and cool, but they aren't going to tell you what it is. Where else in this messed up world would that work? Not at your local store, for sure.
Unfortunately, it happens a lot. Buy x product, bring home, unpackage, doesn't effing work.
The difference here is that PA has developed a high level of trust with the customer base. If they do something that fails that would not be surprising (shit happens). But if they do a whole year's worth of junk that isn't worth my time and/or money, then I would be shocked.
Why does it matter if its technically the use for kickstarter or not? I mean if people are willing to pay it, and PA is being open about it, whats the harm in it being on kickstarter other than some mistaken belief in the purity of kickstarter. Is it not just a place people can go to to fund projects? Is that not what PA is doing?
Well for one, Amazon and Kickstarter are taking 15% total (I think its 7.5% amazon 7.5% kickstarter) a cut of the cash. So by funding PA, your also funding Amazon and Kickstarter. Not necessarily a bad thing, but does everyone that puts down a dollar for PA know that they only get $0.85? What if they just did it on their own, without having to bend any Kickstarter rules and had people donate directly?
So the complaint is that not enough money is getting to pa directly? Because money does not magically get to people when you pledge it, there is always going to be an overhead. If PA had to set up something of their own, they'd probably have to use a different company that charges more than amazon/kickstarter.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Why does it matter if its technically the use for kickstarter or not? I mean if people are willing to pay it, and PA is being open about it, whats the harm in it being on kickstarter other than some mistaken belief in the purity of kickstarter. Is it not just a place people can go to to fund projects? Is that not what PA is doing?
Yeah I don't see why people are going "But that's not what Kickstarter is for!" Who gives a shit what KS is "for"? It's a trustworthy funding apparatus that acts as a good 3rd-party mediator for pledged payments. KS isn't a fucking charity that G&T have taken over to fill their pockets; it's a tool they're using like everyone else who sets up a KS.
Why does it matter if its technically the use for kickstarter or not? I mean if people are willing to pay it, and PA is being open about it, whats the harm in it being on kickstarter other than some mistaken belief in the purity of kickstarter. Is it not just a place people can go to to fund projects? Is that not what PA is doing?
Yeah I don't see why people are going "But that's not what Kickstarter is for!" Who gives a shit what KS is "for"? It's a trustworthy funding apparatus that acts as a good 3rd-party mediator for pledged payments. KS isn't a fucking charity that G&T have taken over to fill their pockets; it's a tool they're using like everyone else who sets up a KS.
I honestly suspect this is sour grapes from people who have failed kickstarter projects mad that PA can put up theirs and get funded over night.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Why does it matter if its technically the use for kickstarter or not? I mean if people are willing to pay it, and PA is being open about it, whats the harm in it being on kickstarter other than some mistaken belief in the purity of kickstarter. Is it not just a place people can go to to fund projects? Is that not what PA is doing?
Yeah I don't see why people are going "But that's not what Kickstarter is for!" Who gives a shit what KS is "for"? It's a trustworthy funding apparatus that acts as a good 3rd-party mediator for pledged payments. KS isn't a fucking charity that G&T have taken over to fill their pockets; it's a tool they're using like everyone else who sets up a KS.
I honestly suspect this is sour grapes from people who have failed kickstarter projects mad that PA can put up theirs and get funded over night.
I mean, do these people also wax poetical on what Paypal, credit cards, and silver dollars are "for"? If I set up a tip jar in a red pot, are they going to whine about how red coin kettles are for the Salvation Army?
If this is successful enough to do it again next year, it would not surprise me at all if they had their own setup by then.
I don't really understand the... strength of the outrage I am seeing at this. If you don't like it, don't donate, nothing will change for you.
I'll probably donate something. The value that these forums have provided me over the years is worth far more than they get from me from ads (I don't do PAX or buy merch - although I did look to see if they had any coffee mugs the other day...).
Why does it matter if its technically the use for kickstarter or not? I mean if people are willing to pay it, and PA is being open about it, whats the harm in it being on kickstarter other than some mistaken belief in the purity of kickstarter. Is it not just a place people can go to to fund projects? Is that not what PA is doing?
Yeah I don't see why people are going "But that's not what Kickstarter is for!" Who gives a shit what KS is "for"? It's a trustworthy funding apparatus that acts as a good 3rd-party mediator for pledged payments. KS isn't a fucking charity that G&T have taken over to fill their pockets; it's a tool they're using like everyone else who sets up a KS.
I honestly suspect this is sour grapes from people who have failed kickstarter projects mad that PA can put up theirs and get funded over night.
I mean, do these people also wax poetical on what Paypal, credit cards, and silver dollars are "for"? If I set up a tip jar in a red pot, are they going to whine about how red coin kettles are for the Salvation Army?
Its the internet land of outrage. I mean when I read about this on G4 the only comment was about how PA was ruining kickstarter and being greedy blah blah blah.
I just find it funny people are mad that regular people are donating to PA to fund their business, THE HORROR!
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Seems to go against the entire point of Kickstarter (acquiring funds that you do not have to make a project happen). This ridiculing just seems to be gypping people out of money that Gabe & Tycho don't need. They say this upfront, which is why this shouldn't be a Kickstarter.
I hope you never eat out, or buy things from a local store because that's also those businesses model as well. And the burden is still on PA, its more on them, because if the fans don't like the product they won't continue to finance it!
If I walk into a store and buy something, I know exactly what Im getting at the time I'm buying it. This is different. This is a service Im getting for free, asking for donations and if I donate, I might.. or might not... get something big a shiny and cool, but they aren't going to tell you what it is. Where else in this messed up world would that work? Not at your local store, for sure.
Public radio and television have used this model for literal decades.
Seems to go against the entire point of Kickstarter (acquiring funds that you do not have to make a project happen). This ridiculing just seems to be gypping people out of money that Gabe & Tycho don't need. They say this upfront, which is why this shouldn't be a Kickstarter.
They do need the money though, they need the money to fund the project that is "penny-arcade no longer brought to you by your corporate masters". Its not like the people donating to PA would instead donate to other causes if PA wasn't offering this project.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Also, despite Gabe's post, what they're proposing is the exact opposite of "selling out." "Selling out" (i.e. exchanging their honest opinion for endorsement checks) is what they've avoided doing for years, and is what they're accused of doing every time they mention they like any game.
Seems to go against the entire point of Kickstarter (acquiring funds that you do not have to make a project happen). This ridiculing just seems to be gypping people out of money that Gabe & Tycho don't need. They say this upfront, which is why this shouldn't be a Kickstarter.
Also, despite Gabe's post, what they're proposing is the exact opposite of "selling out." "Selling out" (i.e. exchanging their honest opinion for endorsement checks) is what they've avoided doing for years, and is what they're accused of doing every time they mention they like any game.
I was under the impression the selling out was a joke on those very same complaints they've recieved over the years. If anything having fans directly support them is the purest form of commerce available. "We like you enough to put our money where our mouth is, even when you have told us we specifically do not have to do this."
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Lots of people saying, and I paraphrase, "If you don't like it don't support kickstarter. Nothing will change for you".
My comment to that is, why would you support it then? Right now X-namelss company is supporting the service you use. If you do or don't support it, nothing changes for you. Does anyone think PA's ads are obstrusive? They are actually pretty tastfully done compared almost every other site on the net.
So why pay? And more importantly, why would Tycho and Gabe have the gall to ask you to pay? Because they know you will.
Seems to go against the entire point of Kickstarter (acquiring funds that you do not have to make a project happen). This ridiculing just seems to be gypping people out of money that Gabe & Tycho don't need. They say this upfront, which is why this shouldn't be a Kickstarter.
I... What?
What?
Really?
People will support it for the name alone. Ignoring the fact that it's a pointless Kickstarter. I basically put it on the same level as the ones that SA frequently ridicules. They do not need this extra money. They'll continue doing what they do regardless, only if you waste your money you won't have any ads! As if the ads were that intrusive anyway.
Seems to go against the entire point of Kickstarter (acquiring funds that you do not have to make a project happen). This ridiculing just seems to be gypping people out of money that Gabe & Tycho don't need. They say this upfront, which is why this shouldn't be a Kickstarter.
I... What?
What?
Really?
I mean, who needs food, really? And an office? And equipment?
They can just draw the comic on napkins and deliver them to every one of use personally.
Add me on Switch: 7795-5541-4699
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Lots of people saying, and I paraphrase, "If you don't like it don't support kickstarter. Nothing will change for you".
My comment to that is, why would you support it then? Right now X-namelss company is supporting the service you use. If you do or don't support it, nothing changes for you. Does anyone think PA's ads are obstrusive? They are actually pretty tastfully done compared almost every other site on the net.
So why pay? And more importantly, why would Tycho and Gabe have the gaul to ask you to pay? Because they know you will.
NEWS FLASH: not everyone has the same views as you on everything!
G&T don't know if enough people want to get rid of the ads to support an ad-free site. They have no way of knowing what the answer to that is except for doing exactly what they're doing. That is why they call it an experiment. If it doesn't work, then you were right - people don't mind the ads, and they have a perfectly good model to fall back on.
And yes, asking for money is exactly the same thing as forcing you to pay. :eyeroll:
Lots of people saying, and I paraphrase, "If you don't like it don't support kickstarter. Nothing will change for you".
My comment to that is, why would you support it then? Right now X-namelss company is supporting the service you use. If you do or don't support it, nothing changes for you. Does anyone think PA's ads are obstrusive? They are actually pretty tastfully done compared almost every other site on the net.
So why pay? And more importantly, why would Tycho and Gabe have the gaul to ask you to pay? Because they know you will.
Because people want an ad free site and a feeling of empowerment "I helped keep PA fund an experiment in a new business model." And again if you do not pay you still get the same benefit you were already getting. So why does it matter if they do this kickstarter and fund their business in an alternative manor? Do you think the funds they are generating would be going to more noble causes if it wasn't going to PA?
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
Just kicked in some money. I don't think this is really in the spirit of Kickstarter but the idea is good enough. Maybe next year if it works, PA can just run it as a fundraiser type thing on this site.
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
People raging at the way other people spend their money is always baffling to me.
Like when people started whining about that bullied bus monitor getting $.5 million in donations. You'd have thought she was taking that donated money out of internet commenters' mouths.
Seems to go against the entire point of Kickstarter (acquiring funds that you do not have to make a project happen). This ridiculing just seems to be gypping people out of money that Gabe & Tycho don't need. They say this upfront, which is why this shouldn't be a Kickstarter.
I... What?
What?
Really?
People will support it for the name alone. Ignoring the fact that it's a pointless Kickstarter. I basically put it on the same level as the ones that SA frequently ridicules. They do not need this extra money. They'll continue doing what they do regardless, only if you waste your money you won't have any ads! As if the ads were that intrusive anyway.
Its not extra money, this is their operating capitol for the next year without ad revenue. The kickstarter is literally putting money in the bank for PA to use next year to fund their projects.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Seems to go against the entire point of Kickstarter (acquiring funds that you do not have to make a project happen). This ridiculing just seems to be gypping people out of money that Gabe & Tycho don't need. They say this upfront, which is why this shouldn't be a Kickstarter.
I... What?
What?
Really?
People will support it for the name alone. Ignoring the fact that it's a pointless Kickstarter. I basically put it on the same level as the ones that SA frequently ridicules. They do not need this extra money. They'll continue doing what they do regardless, only if you waste your money you won't have any ads! As if the ads were that intrusive anyway.
Alright dude, let's break this down.
PA needs $n to operate. Let's say that n=x+y, where x=ad revenue and y=everything else (merch and such). Their goal is to replace $x of ad revenue with $x of community support.
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
I really don't understand why there are people whose only problem with the idea is that it's on KS and not a PA donate button. KS is nothing but a tool to aggregate payments once they're all in, and a safeguard against people taking the money and running.
Because people want an ad free site and a feeling of empowerment "I helped keep PA fund an experiment in a new business model." And again if you do not pay you still get the same benefit you were already getting. So why does it matter if they do this kickstarter and fund their business in an alternative manor? Do you think the funds they are generating would be going to more noble causes if it wasn't going to PA?
Im sure we could agree that there are a million better other uses for the money, but that's not for any of us to deciede. People can spend their cash where they want to.
I have more of an issue with a company that provides a product, then ask people to pay for that product, if they want to, and will continue to provide that same product regardless. Most of the time the public would tell that company to go hump themselves, but in this case, people seem to be running to their wallets for no apparent reason.
I can see a corrilation to TV evangelists and retired ladies social security checks.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
Graveborn on
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
it's not the same product.
Website with ads =/= website without ads.
The whole point of the project is to find out whether people value "website without ads" enough to pay to support it.
I really don't understand why there are people whose only problem with the idea is that it's on KS and not a PA donate button. KS is nothing but a tool to aggregate payments once they're all in, and a safeguard against people taking the money and running.
Many of those critics have some other reason to dislike PA and channel it into that argument because they want the KS taken down.
Because people want an ad free site and a feeling of empowerment "I helped keep PA fund an experiment in a new business model." And again if you do not pay you still get the same benefit you were already getting. So why does it matter if they do this kickstarter and fund their business in an alternative manor? Do you think the funds they are generating would be going to more noble causes if it wasn't going to PA?
Im sure we could agree that there are a million better other uses for the money, but that's not for any of us to deciede. People can spend their cash where they want to.
I have more of an issue with a company that provides a product, then ask people to pay for that product, if they want to, and will continue to provide that same product regardless. Most of the time the public would tell that company to go hump themselves, but in this case, people seem to be running to their wallets for no apparent reason.
I can see a corrilation to TV evangelists and retired ladies social security checks.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
Exactly. If this was a Kickstarter for another P-A game that they would not be able to fund otherwise, I could understand this. As is, I don't. It's a facetious use of the Kickstarter idea.
Because people want an ad free site and a feeling of empowerment "I helped keep PA fund an experiment in a new business model." And again if you do not pay you still get the same benefit you were already getting. So why does it matter if they do this kickstarter and fund their business in an alternative manor? Do you think the funds they are generating would be going to more noble causes if it wasn't going to PA?
Im sure we could agree that there are a million better other uses for the money, but that's not for any of us to deciede. People can spend their cash where they want to.
I have more of an issue with a company that provides a product, then ask people to pay for that product, if they want to, and will continue to provide that same product regardless. Most of the time the public would tell that company to go hump themselves, but in this case, people seem to be running to their wallets for no apparent reason.
I can see a corrilation to TV evangelists and retired ladies social security checks.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
Hello pointless false equivelence and appeal to emotion. Look you don't think people should give PA money, thats your opinion, other people feel differently. That they feel this different means you'll reap a benefit you didn't pay for, and have no obligation to pay for, but you will still benefit all the same. Welcome to the new business model for PA, you're welcome from those of us paying for it.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
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From their end, it would have a massive administrative overhead in terms of effort and oversight- it would be a huge relief for them to not have to manage it.
I'm a big fan of Penny Arcade, but interestingly - I dont care whether they have ads or not. I'm sure everyone says this, but I genuinely cant remember the last time I clicked on any banner on any website I visit regularly. So, for me, it isn't worth it, but I support their endeavour.
If they had being playing the card of "you've been getting all this for free, so dont you think you owe us?" - then it would be different. But they seem to have approached it with a candidness that's to be commended for any business.
https://twitter.com/cwgabriel
Also, Khoo seems like a really sharp guy! So I'm guessing he verified all of Johnny Messageboard's "Is this a valid Kickstarter project?" questions before they went live with it.
It's interesting that they picked Comic Con week to do this - I like the throwing down the gauntlet aspect of it.
Do yourself a service and don't go through the twitter feed for that blog writer. Pure, unadulterated hate-on for Gabe/PA, it appears.
That being said, I don't feel like this is a KS Project, and agree that it doesn't meet the KS policies, nor it's intended use. They may have to seek some other way of amassing money like they have done previously.
pleasepaypreacher.net
If I walk into a store and buy something, I know exactly what Im getting at the time I'm buying it. This is different. This is a service Im getting for free, asking for donations and if I donate, I might.. or might not... get something big a shiny and cool, but they aren't going to tell you what it is. Where else in this messed up world would that work? Not at your local store, for sure.
1) Fair enough.
2) If you don't want to give them money, don't. There is absolutely nothing coercive about this. This isn't "send us money or we don't deliver our product", it's "send us money or absolutely nothing changes from the status quo". There is nothing coercive or exploitative about that other than in your head.
3) PA can run multiple enormous conventions and a worldwide charity (among other things) in addition to the M-W-F news posts and comics, but you're worried they won't be able to fulfill their obligation for whatever additional services they've decided to give us?
4) Yes, this is for a year. Next year if they decide to try this again it's completely up to us whether or not to support them again or go back to the exact same situation we have right now. This isn't "send us money or we don't deliver our product", it's "send us money or absolutely nothing changes from the status quo". There is nothing coercive or exploitative about that other than in your head.
... You get "no more ads". "No more ads" in and of itself allows things to happen, and then you get "other bonus things like the Lookouts stuff" too. Sites that aren't ad-supported can do anything they want with content, navigation, and so forth; personally, I want PA to have that freedom.
If you don't feel like donating to turn PA into an ad-free site, well, don't. That's totally cool.
Also even if you don't donate PA isn't going to become a pay site, if they hit their kickstarter PA will be free without ads and for the low low cost of you not having to pay anything. No obligation and all of the benefit of the ad free site. Those horrible fuckers.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Well for one, Amazon and Kickstarter are taking 15% total (I think its 7.5% amazon 7.5% kickstarter) a cut of the cash. So by funding PA, your also funding Amazon and Kickstarter. Not necessarily a bad thing, but does everyone that puts down a dollar for PA know that they only get $0.85? What if they just did it on their own, without having to bend any Kickstarter rules and had people donate directly?
Unfortunately, it happens a lot. Buy x product, bring home, unpackage, doesn't effing work.
The difference here is that PA has developed a high level of trust with the customer base. If they do something that fails that would not be surprising (shit happens). But if they do a whole year's worth of junk that isn't worth my time and/or money, then I would be shocked.
So the complaint is that not enough money is getting to pa directly? Because money does not magically get to people when you pledge it, there is always going to be an overhead. If PA had to set up something of their own, they'd probably have to use a different company that charges more than amazon/kickstarter.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Yeah I don't see why people are going "But that's not what Kickstarter is for!" Who gives a shit what KS is "for"? It's a trustworthy funding apparatus that acts as a good 3rd-party mediator for pledged payments. KS isn't a fucking charity that G&T have taken over to fill their pockets; it's a tool they're using like everyone else who sets up a KS.
I honestly suspect this is sour grapes from people who have failed kickstarter projects mad that PA can put up theirs and get funded over night.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I mean, do these people also wax poetical on what Paypal, credit cards, and silver dollars are "for"? If I set up a tip jar in a red pot, are they going to whine about how red coin kettles are for the Salvation Army?
I don't really understand the... strength of the outrage I am seeing at this. If you don't like it, don't donate, nothing will change for you.
I'll probably donate something. The value that these forums have provided me over the years is worth far more than they get from me from ads (I don't do PAX or buy merch - although I did look to see if they had any coffee mugs the other day...).
Its the internet land of outrage. I mean when I read about this on G4 the only comment was about how PA was ruining kickstarter and being greedy blah blah blah.
I just find it funny people are mad that regular people are donating to PA to fund their business, THE HORROR!
pleasepaypreacher.net
Public radio and television have used this model for literal decades.
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They do need the money though, they need the money to fund the project that is "penny-arcade no longer brought to you by your corporate masters". Its not like the people donating to PA would instead donate to other causes if PA wasn't offering this project.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I... What?
What?
Really?
I was under the impression the selling out was a joke on those very same complaints they've recieved over the years. If anything having fans directly support them is the purest form of commerce available. "We like you enough to put our money where our mouth is, even when you have told us we specifically do not have to do this."
pleasepaypreacher.net
My comment to that is, why would you support it then? Right now X-namelss company is supporting the service you use. If you do or don't support it, nothing changes for you. Does anyone think PA's ads are obstrusive? They are actually pretty tastfully done compared almost every other site on the net.
So why pay? And more importantly, why would Tycho and Gabe have the gall to ask you to pay? Because they know you will.
People will support it for the name alone. Ignoring the fact that it's a pointless Kickstarter. I basically put it on the same level as the ones that SA frequently ridicules. They do not need this extra money. They'll continue doing what they do regardless, only if you waste your money you won't have any ads! As if the ads were that intrusive anyway.
I mean, who needs food, really? And an office? And equipment?
They can just draw the comic on napkins and deliver them to every one of use personally.
NEWS FLASH: not everyone has the same views as you on everything!
G&T don't know if enough people want to get rid of the ads to support an ad-free site. They have no way of knowing what the answer to that is except for doing exactly what they're doing. That is why they call it an experiment. If it doesn't work, then you were right - people don't mind the ads, and they have a perfectly good model to fall back on.
And yes, asking for money is exactly the same thing as forcing you to pay. :eyeroll:
Because people want an ad free site and a feeling of empowerment "I helped keep PA fund an experiment in a new business model." And again if you do not pay you still get the same benefit you were already getting. So why does it matter if they do this kickstarter and fund their business in an alternative manor? Do you think the funds they are generating would be going to more noble causes if it wasn't going to PA?
pleasepaypreacher.net
Like when people started whining about that bullied bus monitor getting $.5 million in donations. You'd have thought she was taking that donated money out of internet commenters' mouths.
Its not extra money, this is their operating capitol for the next year without ad revenue. The kickstarter is literally putting money in the bank for PA to use next year to fund their projects.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Alright dude, let's break this down.
PA needs $n to operate. Let's say that n=x+y, where x=ad revenue and y=everything else (merch and such). Their goal is to replace $x of ad revenue with $x of community support.
So where is this "extra money" of yours?
Steam | Twitter
Im sure we could agree that there are a million better other uses for the money, but that's not for any of us to deciede. People can spend their cash where they want to.
I have more of an issue with a company that provides a product, then ask people to pay for that product, if they want to, and will continue to provide that same product regardless. Most of the time the public would tell that company to go hump themselves, but in this case, people seem to be running to their wallets for no apparent reason.
I can see a corrilation to TV evangelists and retired ladies social security checks.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
Website with ads =/= website without ads.
The whole point of the project is to find out whether people value "website without ads" enough to pay to support it.
Okay. But I didn't pay. And I won't pay. So I guess you are just wrong?
Many of those critics have some other reason to dislike PA and channel it into that argument because they want the KS taken down.
Exactly. If this was a Kickstarter for another P-A game that they would not be able to fund otherwise, I could understand this. As is, I don't. It's a facetious use of the Kickstarter idea.
Hello pointless false equivelence and appeal to emotion. Look you don't think people should give PA money, thats your opinion, other people feel differently. That they feel this different means you'll reap a benefit you didn't pay for, and have no obligation to pay for, but you will still benefit all the same. Welcome to the new business model for PA, you're welcome from those of us paying for it.
pleasepaypreacher.net
This statement doesn't become less true when you refuse to address it.
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