The Selling Out Kickstarter

Dark_Side · July 2012

Fallingman wrote: »

I dont hink it's exploititive at all. They're genuinely testing whether there's an appetite for it.
From their end, it would have a massive administrative overhead in terms of effort and oversight- it would be a huge relief for them to not have to manage it.

I've always really liked how innovative PA is as a company, and how things so organically seem to branch from their original ideas into bigger, cooler things. And I like what they're trying to do with this kickstarter, though yeah, it's not exactly in the wheelhouse of what kickstarter seems designed for. I spend enough time on these free forums and use ad block, I've no problem kicking down straight cash to see what they come up with next, lack of ads is just a nice perk from that.

KalTorak · July 2012

Dehumanized wrote: »

KalTorak wrote: »

I really don't understand why there are people whose only problem with the idea is that it's on KS and not a PA donate button. KS is nothing but a tool to aggregate payments once they're all in, and a safeguard against people taking the money and running.

Many of those critics have some other reason to dislike PA and channel it into that argument because they want the KS taken down.

I'm not going to take part in this business deal but boy-howdy am I going to complain about it!

Preacher · July 2012

From their faq about it being a real use of Kickstarter.

Is this even a Kickstarter project?

We asked the same thing, and it turns out that funding comics on Kickstarter has a lot of precedent. We just happen to have been making them for 14 years already, so we're just coming at it from the opposite side.

So apparently yep a real use of kickstarter.

Graveborn · July 2012

Kilroy wrote: »

Kilroy wrote: »

Public radio and television have used this model for literal decades.

This statement doesn't become less true when you refuse to address it.

Your right, it is exactly the same trueness as when I said this same thing in my post (first page, 3rd post from the bottom).

Zephyr_Fate · July 2012

They're not using it to fund the comic, though.

Preacher · July 2012

Zephyr_Fate wrote: »

They're not using it to fund the comic, though.

Oh?

A million dollars seems like a lot of money, where's it all going?

Advertising paid for rent, wages, health insurance, utilities, all the normal stuff that you pay for when you have fourteen souls working together. That money keeps the lights on while we do the things people expect from us: thrice weekly content drops, two annual shows, the scholarships, Child's Play, etc.

Sure seems like they are trying to fund their operation by the kickstarter according to their faq. But I'm sure you know more than they do, I mean you're on the internet and everything.

Zombiemambo · July 2012

Preacher wrote: »

From their faq about it being a real use of Kickstarter.

Is this even a Kickstarter project?

We asked the same thing, and it turns out that funding comics on Kickstarter has a lot of precedent. We just happen to have been making them for 14 years already, so we're just coming at it from the opposite side.

So apparently yep a real use of kickstarter.

I don't think hearing it from a PA interview is exactly convincing. Also, of course it's a real use of Kickstarter. It's on Kickstarter. What else would it be?

However, I think Kickstarter should be used for people with ideas but not the money to make them a reality. My original impression of KS and what drew me to it was individuals and small companies pitching to an audience with some promotional material.

PA is huge. I'm not saying they wouldn't need the funding to do what they want to do with KS, but it feels tacky to use the site that way.

Houn · July 2012

Zephyr_Fate wrote: »

They're not using it to fund the comic, though.

^ This is why I feel it's in bad taste. This is not "Give us up front capital so that we can produce this product", this is "Replace one of our existing revenue streams so that we can re-organize job responsibilities internally and continue operating our business exactly as it is now, but MAYBE with some additional content being produced."

And anyone who wants to argue that "new content" is a sure thing, may I point you to every time they forgot to deliver the "Buy a Guest Appearance in a PA Strip" Auction.

*edit* That said, if they dump the kickstarter and just up front ask for funding on their own site, I'm 100% fine with it. Hell, at that point, it can just be a "Current time until Donations run out and we put the ad back up" meter.

Kilroy · July 2012

Graveborn wrote: »

Kilroy wrote: »

Kilroy wrote: »

Public radio and television have used this model for literal decades.

This statement doesn't become less true when you refuse to address it.

Your right, it is exactly the same trueness as when I said this same thing in my post (first page, 3rd post from the bottom).

I made that post as an answer to this:

Graveborn wrote: »

If I walk into a store and buy something, I know exactly what Im getting at the time I'm buying it. This is different. This is a service Im getting for free, asking for donations and if I donate, I might.. or might not... get something big a shiny and cool, but they aren't going to tell you what it is. Where else in this messed up world would that work? Not at your local store, for sure.

But apparently you'd already answered your own question earlier in this discussion. Nice rhetoric, though.

Preacher · July 2012

Zombiemambo wrote: »

Preacher wrote: »

From their faq about it being a real use of Kickstarter.

Is this even a Kickstarter project?

We asked the same thing, and it turns out that funding comics on Kickstarter has a lot of precedent. We just happen to have been making them for 14 years already, so we're just coming at it from the opposite side.

So apparently yep a real use of kickstarter.

I don't think hearing it from a PA interview is exactly convincing. Also, of course it's a real use of Kickstarter. It's on Kickstarter. What else would it be?

However, I think Kickstarter should be used for people with ideas but not the money to make them a reality. My original impression of KS and what drew me to it was individuals and small companies pitching to an audience with some promotional material.

PA is huge. I'm not saying they wouldn't need the funding to do what they want to do with KS, but it feels tacky to use the site that way.

How do you define a small company? PA only has 14 on staff personel. In most american business terms thats the very definition of a small business.

And this is exactly the bolded. They have the idea of doing their well received comic without advertising, now they need the money to do so.

Axon · July 2012

This certainly struck me as a little odd. As has been noted by numerous others above, I actually don't mind PA's ads, but I'm sure PA does - dealing with advertisers is never easy. Factor in how picky PA is about who advertises on their site, and I can see how they might be tired of the process. In short, they will be beholden to no one if this is successful.

I have faith in PA and I know their intentions are as good as intentions can be. As to how improved the experience will be for the fans, well, that remains to be seen. Ultimately, PA is a unique company, and I'm sure they will determine a unique way of using these funds.

Preacher · July 2012

Houn wrote: »

Zephyr_Fate wrote: »

They're not using it to fund the comic, though.

^ This is why I feel it's in bad taste. This is not "Give us up front capital so that we can produce this product", this is "Replace one of our existing revenue streams so that we can re-organize job responsibilities internally and continue operating our business exactly as it is now, but MAYBE with some additional content being produced."

And anyone who wants to argue that "new content" is a sure thing, may I point you to every time they forgot to deliver the "Buy a Guest Appearance in a PA Strip" Auction.

*edit* That said, if they dump the kickstarter and just up front ask for funding on their own site, I'm 100% fine with it. Hell, at that point, it can just be a "Current time until Donations run out and we put the ad back up" meter.

And the difference is? I mean other than instead of going through kickstarter its through someone else's donation site. Why does it matter they go through kickstarter? How does that change the nature of the project?

Zephyr_Fate · July 2012

Preacher wrote: »

Zombiemambo wrote: »

Preacher wrote: »

From their faq about it being a real use of Kickstarter.

Is this even a Kickstarter project?

We asked the same thing, and it turns out that funding comics on Kickstarter has a lot of precedent. We just happen to have been making them for 14 years already, so we're just coming at it from the opposite side.

So apparently yep a real use of kickstarter.

I don't think hearing it from a PA interview is exactly convincing. Also, of course it's a real use of Kickstarter. It's on Kickstarter. What else would it be?

However, I think Kickstarter should be used for people with ideas but not the money to make them a reality. My original impression of KS and what drew me to it was individuals and small companies pitching to an audience with some promotional material.

PA is huge. I'm not saying they wouldn't need the funding to do what they want to do with KS, but it feels tacky to use the site that way.

How do you define a small company? PA only has 14 on staff personel. In most american business terms thats the very definition of a small business.

And this is exactly the bolded. They have the idea of doing their well received comic without advertising, now they need the money to do so.

And yet they can still do exactly what they do regardless. The point of Kickstarter is that you're doing it because you have no other option. The money is necessary, not superfluous, which is what it is in this case because if the KS fails then they just go back to advertisers, no problem.

Houn · July 2012

Preacher wrote: »

Houn wrote: »

Zephyr_Fate wrote: »

They're not using it to fund the comic, though.

^ This is why I feel it's in bad taste. This is not "Give us up front capital so that we can produce this product", this is "Replace one of our existing revenue streams so that we can re-organize job responsibilities internally and continue operating our business exactly as it is now, but MAYBE with some additional content being produced."

And anyone who wants to argue that "new content" is a sure thing, may I point you to every time they forgot to deliver the "Buy a Guest Appearance in a PA Strip" Auction.

*edit* That said, if they dump the kickstarter and just up front ask for funding on their own site, I'm 100% fine with it. Hell, at that point, it can just be a "Current time until Donations run out and we put the ad back up" meter.

And the difference is? I mean other than instead of going through kickstarter its through someone else's donation site. Why does it matter they go through kickstarter? How does that change the nature of the project?

That whole bit in the Kickstarter policy about not using it to fund business operations.

Kilroy · July 2012

As for the whole "this isn't what Kickstarter is for" argument, I'm pretty sure that if that were the case they would not have been allowed to put it on Kickstarter.

Preacher · July 2012

Zephyr_Fate wrote: »

Preacher wrote: »

Zombiemambo wrote: »

Preacher wrote: »

From their faq about it being a real use of Kickstarter.

Is this even a Kickstarter project?

We asked the same thing, and it turns out that funding comics on Kickstarter has a lot of precedent. We just happen to have been making them for 14 years already, so we're just coming at it from the opposite side.

So apparently yep a real use of kickstarter.

I don't think hearing it from a PA interview is exactly convincing. Also, of course it's a real use of Kickstarter. It's on Kickstarter. What else would it be?

However, I think Kickstarter should be used for people with ideas but not the money to make them a reality. My original impression of KS and what drew me to it was individuals and small companies pitching to an audience with some promotional material.

PA is huge. I'm not saying they wouldn't need the funding to do what they want to do with KS, but it feels tacky to use the site that way.

How do you define a small company? PA only has 14 on staff personel. In most american business terms thats the very definition of a small business.

And this is exactly the bolded. They have the idea of doing their well received comic without advertising, now they need the money to do so.

And yet they can still do exactly what they do regardless. The point of Kickstarter is that you're doing it because you have no other option. The money is necessary, not superfluous, which is what it is in this case because if the KS fails then they just go back to advertisers, no problem.

Oh is this somewhere on kickstarter forbidding small companies from trying projects like this? If it isn't, than whats so wrong that PA wants to seperate their arts and content from corporate interests and still keep supplying that art to the very people that want to consume it?

Houn · July 2012

@Kilroy, which is valid, but I don't necessarily trust Kickstarter not to bend their own ideals when they're getting a potential cut of a cool quarter million.

Kalkino · July 2012

I don't think Kickstarter is just for new, resourceless groups trying to work on projects. It is just an alternative method of fund raising.

Graveborn · July 2012

I think the last few posts have hit it on the head.

This is trading one revenue stream for another. This is all about giving PA "freedom" to get out from under "the man" to spend their time doing what they want to do with their company.

You know how everyone else in the world does that? They start their own company, make their own products and sells them. PA does this through their merc. But apparently that's not enough to keep the lights on. So maybe they need to try harder in that department. Instead of hitting up their fanbase for a loan on KS, how about they divert their efforts to coming up with some new T-shirt designs. I'd be happy to buy a shirt from them (I got three of them now, and one has some holes in it that needs replaced). But I see the same damn shirts on their site for the last 3 years.

Then I would be happy to give them $ for products, instead of this $ for the promise of maybe some product, if we have the time and bandwidth.... maybe.

Mortious · July 2012

Zephyr_Fate wrote: »

Preacher wrote: »

Zombiemambo wrote: »

Preacher wrote: »

From their faq about it being a real use of Kickstarter.

Is this even a Kickstarter project?

We asked the same thing, and it turns out that funding comics on Kickstarter has a lot of precedent. We just happen to have been making them for 14 years already, so we're just coming at it from the opposite side.

So apparently yep a real use of kickstarter.

I don't think hearing it from a PA interview is exactly convincing. Also, of course it's a real use of Kickstarter. It's on Kickstarter. What else would it be?

However, I think Kickstarter should be used for people with ideas but not the money to make them a reality. My original impression of KS and what drew me to it was individuals and small companies pitching to an audience with some promotional material.

PA is huge. I'm not saying they wouldn't need the funding to do what they want to do with KS, but it feels tacky to use the site that way.

How do you define a small company? PA only has 14 on staff personel. In most american business terms thats the very definition of a small business.

And this is exactly the bolded. They have the idea of doing their well received comic without advertising, now they need the money to do so.

And yet they can still do exactly what they do regardless. The point of Kickstarter is that you're doing it because you have no other option. The money is necessary, not superfluous, which is what it is in this case because if the KS fails then they just go back to advertisers, no problem.

I'm just going to use this as a substitute for the other posts along a similar line.

Kickstarter never was (to me at least) suppose to be the last option of funding. I'm sure quite a few of the projects that got funded through KS could have been funded a different way. Does this invalidate those projects?

A game project using KS will allow the creators to do something without concessions to the investors. As such, PA using KS will allow them to do things without concessions to the adverts.

Now I don't mind the adverts, so removing them as a goal in itself doesn't interest me. But the idea that they no longer have to structure their business around advert? RSS feed, comics and news feeds direct to my phone via a 3rd party app? That's interesting. That can only happen without adds.

Preacher · July 2012

The Kickstarter guidlines for projects.

Spoiler:

It mentions you can use kickstarter to fund a comic, but not start a business, since PA is funding their comic and not starting their business I think they are ok. And they do have a clear goal for their project, removing banner ads from their main site and delivering additional content they have previously dropped due to monetary constraints.

So it looks like PA is all good according to Kickstarters own guidelines. Whew no ethical dilemna.

Kilroy · July 2012

Project Guidelines

Kickstarter is a funding platform for creative projects — everything from traditional forms of art (like theater and music) to contemporary forms (like design and games). These guidelines explain Kickstarter’s focus. Projects violating these guidelines will not be allowed to launch.

Note that as you go through the site you may find past projects on Kickstarter that conflict with these rules. We’re making tweaks as we learn and grow. Thanks for reading!

1. Funding for projects only.
A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended. Starting a business, for example, does not qualify as a project.

2. Projects must fit Kickstarter’s categories.
We currently support projects in the categories of Art, Comics, Dance, Design, Fashion, Film, Food, Games, Music, Photography, Publishing, Technology, and Theater.

Design and Technology projects have a few additional guidelines. If your project is in either of these categories, be sure to review them carefully.

3. Prohibited uses:
No charity or cause funding. Examples of prohibited use include raising money for the Red Cross, funding an awareness campaign, funding a scholarship, or promoting the donation of funds raised, or future profits, to a charity or cause.

No "fund my life" projects. Examples include projects to pay tuition or bills, go on vacation, or buy a new camera.

Prohibited content. There are some things we just don't allow on Kickstarter.

I could see someone making the argument that the "a project is not open-ended" guideline might getting a bit bent, but aside from that I really can't see any glaring violations.

Edit: Way to have all my ideas slightly sooner than I do, Preacher

SammyF · July 2012

Philosophically speaking, I see nothing unethical about PA moving to the NPR/PBS model. If someone wants to donate one dollar or $100 or no dollars to Penny Arcade, that is the prerogative of the individual in question.

Speaking personally, as far as internet website advertising goes, this is probably the website where I mind the ads the least. I never get hit with a Mitt Romney ad. I don't have to sit through a full-screen advertisement for some fruity new drink at Starbucks before I can get to the front page (as happened when I went to read the online edition of the NY Times this morning). I didn't have to hunt desperately for a cleverly hidden [x] to terminate a ginormous Toyota flash ad like sometimes happens when I check out what's on the front page at Yahoo. The ads never start playing music or sound out of my speakers, and it's never whatever bullshit Google analytics thinks I might be interested in from my most recent page visits. It's just a few unobtrusive ads for stuff related to games. And since who buys ad space seems to have little or no impact about how Gabe and Tycho editorialize about video games, I don't mind having people pitch their games at me.

And what ad am I seeing when I click on something related to a video right now... what the fuck? A 10 second spot reminding me of the risk inherent in sending or reading SMS texts while operating a motor vehicle? Who the fuck do these guys think they are?! I already stopped drinking while driving! To what extent must the nanny state oppose my effort to multitask... oh, wait, no, at second glance, I don't object to public service announcements at all.

So, I don't really care about the ads. Don't mind 'em. And because I don't mind them, I don't see myself donating to get rid of 'em.

Really it's a mode of self-preservation so that Magic: The Gathering doesn't feel compelled to buy ads that interrupt me when I try to read the goddamned newspaper. They advertise here so they don't have to advertise somewhere else.

Zephyr_Fate · July 2012

They're not funding their comic with the money. They are using it to remove ads from a site that has some of the least obtrusive ads you can find. It's something that can be done through the site proper.

From the Kickstarter FAQ:
A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended.

They've said nothing as to anything of the sort being produced from this, just the proposition of "additional content", as absolutely vague as that is.

Nimble Cat · July 2012

I'm not a huge fan of the comics but I still chipped in $5 because I hate advertising getting into art. I'd much rather give money to artists so they can pay their bills and create whatever the hell they want, even if I don't know what that is exactly.

I think the idea that "this isn't a product, so why should I pay?" is a strange one. Art should not be a product. Art exists for its own sake, and bringing advertising into the equation perverts that. Advertising may not have affected the art on this site, but it does in many other places and I'm just happy we're finally making some tiny steps away from art as commodity.

Dehumanized · July 2012

http://kotaku.com/5924884/penny-arcade-wants-a-quarter-million-dollars-to-start-ditching-their-sites-ads wrote:

"We spoke to Kickstarter ahead of time to make sure," Penny Arcade business manager Robert Khoo told Kotaku. "What it came down to was to pretend that no Penny Arcade existed, and what you were doing [by paying into the Kickstarter] was paying for a new comic strip for one year. The only difference is that we were coming from the flip side of that coin. Projects like this are already on the service, so we really didn't see this deviating from that."

This was apparently enough to convince Kickstarter that it's okay as a project. I doubt this is going anywhere.

Preacher · July 2012

Its not an open ended project though, it has a clear year time frame of no advertisements on their main page, with a potential for new content being available due to them having more time to develop it.

Mortious · July 2012

Graveborn wrote: »

I think the last few posts have hit it on the head.

This is trading one revenue stream for another. This is all about giving PA "freedom" to get out from under "the man" to spend their time doing what they want to do with their company.

You know how everyone else in the world does that? They start their own company, make their own products and sells them. PA does this through their merc. But apparently that's not enough to keep the lights on. So maybe they need to try harder in that department. Instead of hitting up their fanbase for a loan on KS, how about they divert their efforts to coming up with some new T-shirt designs. I'd be happy to buy a shirt from them (I got three of them now, and one has some holes in it that needs replaced). But I see the same damn shirts on their site for the last 3 years.

Then I would be happy to give them $ for products, instead of this $ for the promise of maybe some product, if we have the time and bandwidth.... maybe.

How is them replacing ad money with merc money and different than replacing ad money with KS money? Both are valid alternate funding methods.
I guess I'm just not seeing the problem with them using KS specifically. It seems like an easy way for people to give their money to a company. Like a weird digital store front where you can buy pet names and duck harrasment.

Axon · July 2012

Listen, if PA asks kickstarter for something, I get the feeling Kickstarter would oblige them (as long as it wasn't, you know, "let's steal this cash trollolololol!!!1!"). PA enjoys that level of respect, at least in my eyes.

Zephyr_Fate · July 2012

Dehumanized wrote: »

http://kotaku.com/5924884/penny-arcade-wants-a-quarter-million-dollars-to-start-ditching-their-sites-ads wrote:

"We spoke to Kickstarter ahead of time to make sure," Penny Arcade business manager Robert Khoo told Kotaku. "What it came down to was to pretend that no Penny Arcade existed, and what you were doing [by paying into the Kickstarter] was paying for a new comic strip for one year. The only difference is that we were coming from the flip side of that coin. Projects like this are already on the service, so we really didn't see this deviating from that."

This was apparently enough to convince Kickstarter that it's okay as a project. I doubt this is going anywhere.

So, in other words, pay for something you're not actually paying for, to allow PA to fund something pretty different.

KalTorak · July 2012

Zephyr_Fate wrote: »

Dehumanized wrote: »

http://kotaku.com/5924884/penny-arcade-wants-a-quarter-million-dollars-to-start-ditching-their-sites-ads wrote:

"We spoke to Kickstarter ahead of time to make sure," Penny Arcade business manager Robert Khoo told Kotaku. "What it came down to was to pretend that no Penny Arcade existed, and what you were doing [by paying into the Kickstarter] was paying for a new comic strip for one year. The only difference is that we were coming from the flip side of that coin. Projects like this are already on the service, so we really didn't see this deviating from that."

This was apparently enough to convince Kickstarter that it's okay as a project. I doubt this is going anywhere.

So, in other words, pay for something you're not actually paying for, to allow PA to fund something pretty different.

I guess when you're the CEO of Kickstarter you can shut them down for their shenanigans.

Zephyr_Fate · July 2012

Fantastic argument.

KalTorak · July 2012

So not only do we not like the way PA runs itself, we don't like the way Kickstarter runs itself. Kickstarter isn't living up to our awesome mental picture of what Kickstarter should be.

Caveman Paws · July 2012

I don't understand the argument against PA having a KS.

Just because they don't look like the usual KS company?

If they want to ask for money in exchange for promises of cool new thingies for the site, while taking nothing away if they don't reach their goal, where is the problem?

Zephyr_Fate · July 2012

Caveman Paws wrote: »

I don't understand the argument against PA having a KS.

Just because they don't look like the usual KS company?

If they want to ask for money in exchange for promises of cool new thingies for the site, while taking nothing away if they don't reach their goal, where is the problem?

The only "promise" they made was for ads to be taken away. If the KS was JUST for actual new content on the site, then there would be no problem.

Kilroy · July 2012

Several people have made the argument that the ads on PA aren't particularly intrusive. The reason for that is because the folks at PA spend a not-insignificant amount of time vetting ads to insure that they don't play 2 minute videos, blast music out of your speakers, or bombard you with seizure inducing flash animations. Part of the goal of this project is to free up that time that would be spent vetting ads so they can use it to bring you cool shit instead.

Preacher · July 2012

Caveman Paws wrote: »

I don't understand the argument against PA having a KS.

Just because they don't look like the usual KS company?

If they want to ask for money in exchange for promises of cool new thingies for the site, while taking nothing away if they don't reach their goal, where is the problem?

Because they don't need to apparently. Which is ridiculous. Hell if anything this can be a new method for webcomics to all make money easier.

Instead of having to make merch to sell, or deal with shady advertisers/hoping for enough click throughs, people can just donate directly and guarentee their favorite creative endeavors keep going. PA is the webcomic pathfinder once again, and all comics will benefit.

Agnogenic · July 2012

I honestly don't see a problem with Penny Arcade using Kickstarter to fund the website for a year. Besides, just live they've said, they're asking the audience if they would rather have Penny Arcade working directly for their fans. I don't often visit, but I have always supported Penny Arcade and their endeavors.

This is also a chance I have to pay them back for always having AdBlock on.

Caveman Paws · July 2012

Zephyr_Fate wrote: »

Caveman Paws wrote: »

I don't understand the argument against PA having a KS.

Just because they don't look like the usual KS company?

If they want to ask for money in exchange for promises of cool new thingies for the site, while taking nothing away if they don't reach their goal, where is the problem?

The only "promise" they made was for ads to be taken away. If the KS was JUST for actual new content on the site, then there would be no problem.

Okay, taking your clarification into account, all they want is money from us so they can remove the ads from the site.

In my mind, nothing has changed, they are asking for money in exchange for an improvement (or change if the word improvement is dubious to some) to the site.

So why is that bad?

Preacher · July 2012

Zephyr_Fate wrote: »

Caveman Paws wrote: »

I don't understand the argument against PA having a KS.

Just because they don't look like the usual KS company?

If they want to ask for money in exchange for promises of cool new thingies for the site, while taking nothing away if they don't reach their goal, where is the problem?

The only "promise" they made was for ads to be taken away. If the KS was JUST for actual new content on the site, then there would be no problem.

I figured you've haven't read their kickstarter yet, but thanks for confirming it. They have listed and original lookouts strip at 550k and the dlc podcast revived at 825k. So its more than just ad free, but I know reading stuff you are complaining about is hard, its ok.

Penny Arcade

The Selling Out Kickstarter

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