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[StarCraft 2] THIS THREAD IS OVER. POST IN THE NEW ONE PEOPLE!

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Posts

  • 3clipse3clipse Registered User regular
    Man, remember when Protoss was unbeatably OP, and all the times Terran has been unbeatably OP?

    Me too!

    Remember all the sweeping changes that had to be made to fix the metagame?

    Me neither!


    *only partially tongue in cheek. Yes, some things were rightfully changed (original voids, 6rax reaper, blue flame hellions, etc), but in a lot of the times that "OPness" has ended there...hasn't been really any change to any of the races involved, people just figured out how to change styles in such a way to win.

    So complaints of "well the only way to win is [X] because [Y] is OP" rings really, really fucking hollow to me, because it's been demonstrably untrue for SC2.

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  • BiosysBiosys Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=358898

    mionix (a swedish gaming peripheral company) are sponsoring naniwa in the short-term, with a view towards extension after iem cologne

    thankfully mionix didn't read jaziek's posts beforehand, then nani would have no chance of esports $$$

    Biosys on
  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    Just bring on hots so we can have a whole new round of completely broken crap thats "actually fine X race is just bad".

    You can't raise a point about the design of races and how they interact with each other without being shot down.

    and then when blizzard goes and changes something "yeah it was obviously broken."

    Steam ||| SC2 - Jaziek.377 on EU & NA. ||| Twitch Stream
  • 3clipse3clipse Registered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    Just bring on hots so we can have a whole new round of completely broken crap thats "actually fine X race is just bad".

    You can't raise a point about the design of races and how they interact with each other without being shot down.

    and then when blizzard goes and changes something "yeah it was obviously broken."

    But you never raise points of design you disagree with. You always lead with some variation of "god, [x] race is completely, unbeatably, unacceptably OP, here's why."

    Maybe you don't mean that, but man, tone down the hyperbole if that's the case, because you're impossible to take seriously. I've seen you complain about almost anything that can beat P.

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  • BiosysBiosys Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    you can bring up points on a race/unit(s) design and have a discussion about it

    in fact

    this has happened many many times in threads past, mostly about the collosus cause seriously fuck that thing

    just don't do it in a really dumb and angry 'this entire race is fucked all of the time always' kind of way

    Biosys on
  • BiosysBiosys Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    also dunno if this was talked about earlier, can't remember

    but man

    major joining root

    just

    how does he keep getting into teams

    some sort of countdown should probably be started to the disbanding of root with this news also

    Biosys on
  • 3clipse3clipse Registered User regular
    Seriously, how does he keep getting into teams?

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  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Because he's quite good and everyone is like 'surely this time he'll stick around'. And apparently CatZ decided to let him join after MajOr admitted that he would leave immediately if given an offer by a Kespa team. Apparently CatZ respected the honesty O_o

    mEEksa on
  • BiosysBiosys Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/IGNProLeague

    ipl show 'cartographer', going over a new map with the mapmaker and casting games on it

    currently a remake of bloody ridge, a bw map

    Biosys on
  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular

    Infestors are not a well balanced unit. They don't have a downside. Zerg will automatically get them during the course of the game, because that's just how the zerg tech tree works, and they are good against everything. Fungal, in combination with basically any other zerg comp increases the overall effectiveness of the zerg army by a ridiculous amount, and infested terrans allow the zerg to trade energy for actual resources, and there's very little the opposing player can do about it.

    A broodlord / infestor / corruptor composition is almost un-engageable. If the zerg takes time to adequately spread out his units into a decent formation before attacking, there is no way to deal with it, and you certainly can't attack into it.

    Playing passively against a zerg is a bad idea. They will get so far ahead simply by virtue of being allowed to get their infrastructure up and economy going that they no longer have to worry about trading cost efficiently, and can simply throw units of their choosing at you until you lose.

    Playing aggressively against zerg, by comparison, is incredibly risky. If you move out for an attack, you are instantly susceptible to a counter attack, and if you are caught out of position on the map then you can lose your whole army for free. Zerg is in a position where he can trade his low-cost mineral units for your high-cost gas units, and doing this gets him ahead.

    Steam ||| SC2 - Jaziek.377 on EU & NA. ||| Twitch Stream
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Broodlords should be Guardians. Still good at siege but not so unbelievably stupid.

    There, I solved PvZ.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    High templar are not a well balanced unit. They don't have a downside. Protoss will automatically get them during the course of the game, because that's just how the protoss tech tree works, and they are good against everything. Storm , in combination with basically any other protoss comp increases the overall effectiveness of the protoss army by a ridiculous amount, and feedback allows the protoss to trade energy for actual resources, and there's very little the opposing player can do about it.

    A collosus / archon / high templar /zealot composition is almost un-engageable. If the protoss takes time to adequately spread out his units into a decent formation before attacking, there is no way to deal with it, and you certainly can't attack into it.

    Playing passively against a protoss is a bad idea. They will get so far ahead simply by virtue of being allowed to get their infrastructure up and economy going that they no longer have to worry about trading cost efficiently, and can simply throw units of their choosing at you until you lose.

    Playing aggressively against protoss, by comparison, is incredibly risky. Iif you are caught out of position on the map then you can lose your whole army for free. Protoss is in a position where he can trade his low-cost mineral units for your everything, and doing this gets him ahead.

  • shwaipshwaip Registered User regular
    3clipse wrote: »
    Seriously, how does he keep getting into teams?

    In addition to being very good, from what I've heard he'd be an ideal practice partner. He doesn't really innovate builds, but he executes builds precisely and with precise control. Having trouble with a certain build XvT? Have major do it over and over against you until you can hold it.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Yilias wrote: »
    High templar are not a well balanced unit. They don't have a downside. Protoss will automatically get them during the course of the game, because that's just how the protoss tech tree works,

    Not true.
    and they are good against everything.

    Also not true.
    Storm , in combination with basically any other protoss comp increases the overall effectiveness of the protoss army by a ridiculous amount, and feedback allows the protoss to trade energy for actual resources, and there's very little the opposing player can do about it.

    True, to a degree, but microing against storm is not a matter of "oh, he landed one fungal and now you're fucked", plenty of possibility to mitigate damage.
    A collosus / archon / high templar /zealot composition is almost un-engageable. If the protoss takes time to adequately spread out his units into a decent formation before attacking, there is no way to deal with it, and you certainly can't attack into it.

    Also not true, and when it comes to PvZ, the Protoss army is a hell of a lot more engageable than an established infestor/broodlord/corrupter army.
    Playing passively against a protoss is a bad idea. They will get so far ahead simply by virtue of being allowed to get their infrastructure up and economy going that they no longer have to worry about trading cost efficiently, and can simply throw units of their choosing at you until you lose.

    Not when it's a Zerg because they can power economy much faster with less risk.
    Playing aggressively against protoss, by comparison, is incredibly risky. Iif you are caught out of position on the map then you can lose your whole army for free. Protoss is in a position where he can trade his low-cost mineral units for your everything, and doing this gets him ahead.

    This just doesn't apply.

    Dhalphir on
    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • fatalspoonsfatalspoons Registered User regular
    Let's all just agree with Dhal and Jaziek that zerg is super OP and protoss sucks donkey nuts so we can move on with our day.

  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    he's talking about tvp

    every protoss gets them in tvp unless they win or die before it happens. it's not "how the tech tree works" in the same way but it is true. and they are good against everything T has.

    you can't engage without good EMPs which can be mitigated with spreads and obs. you CAN lose your whole army for free if you're out of position, and the zealot reinforcements can decimate everything while you wait for your silly rax build times to complete.

    BNet-Vari#1998 | WiiU-Variable | 3DS-3866-8105-7478 | Steam | Twitch
    Sig%20-%20Hearthstone%20DoA.png
  • fatalspoonsfatalspoons Registered User regular
    On a separate note, I BEAT A MASTERS PLAYER IN 1V1 YESTERDAY. YAY ME!!!
    Spoiler:

  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    Oh great, I knew this would happen. Teamliquid is creeping into the thread.

  • fatalspoonsfatalspoons Registered User regular
    mEEksa wrote: »
    Oh great, I knew this would happen. Teamliquid is creeping into the thread.

    Could be worse. Could be the battle.net forums... *shudder*

  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    for the record I'm not complaining, just showing a counter-side to the same types of complaints.

    some shit is hard to deal with it. seed managed last night! he killed a zerg that had broods and sunkens and shit all over the place. I'm sure he's not the only one ever.

    terrans who hate tvp (I know some!) keep getting told 'taeja taeja taeja' and you know what? people are right. so jaz, seed seed seed.

    BNet-Vari#1998 | WiiU-Variable | 3DS-3866-8105-7478 | Steam | Twitch
    Sig%20-%20Hearthstone%20DoA.png
  • TheBogTheBog Registered User regular
    The gap between diamond and masters is fucking insurmountably huge. A master terran will rip your ass into 12 pieces without batting an eyelash.

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  • YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    My goal was to show Jazzy that he was being silly, not to actually bitch. If I had the free time to actively complain about things I would be over on the Valve forums complaining that Shackleshot stuns for too long and that Teleportation needs a longer cooldown.

  • BiosysBiosys Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    lets complain/talk about zvt instead

    i think most of the balance problems in that matchup are kinda down to creep spread and the ridic. levels it can be at now, making creep recede faster/toning down the exponential rate that multiple creep tumours expand would prrroobably solve a lot of the early-mid problems for terran - creep spread as it is right now adds entire minutes to terran timings, meaning they can't really attack before z can get out enough units without being extremely risky

    i dunno if changing queen range any more would change anything, zergs know how good queens are for defense now, and a 1-2 range decrease i don't think will change the standard 3-4 extra queen style

    zvt lategame i have always felt is ok, unlike lategame pvz terran seems to have a varied set of tools (relatively) to deal with late-game zerg, also people tend to judge late-game matchups in a vacuum - what happened before is vital to how 'balanced' the lategame situations seem, and if t and z enter late-game on even footing i think both have a pretty good chance

    basically

    with like two tweaks

    zvt would go from being the best matchup, to the bestest matchup

    Biosys on
  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    PvZ winrates were almost exactly 50% both internationally and in Korea for June. Since Protoss are weaker than Zerg in the early, mid, and late game, I can only conclude that Protoss players are almost universally better than Zerg players to make sense of this.

    This is honestly a travesty and I hope Blizzard takes a good, long look at the terrible state of PvZ balance. If Protoss players are this much better, PvZ should be at least 60% in favour of the better players.

    They won't of course, because Bli$$ard cares only about money after Activision took them over and because David Kim and Dustin Browder are literally braindead.

  • shwaipshwaip Registered User regular
    mEEksa wrote: »
    PvZ winrates were almost exactly 50% both internationally and in Korea for June. Since Protoss are weaker than Zerg in the early, mid, and late game, I can only conclude that Protoss players are almost universally better than Zerg players to make sense of this.

    This is honestly a travesty and I hope Blizzard takes a good, long look at the terrible state of PvZ balance. If Protoss players are this much better, PvZ should be at least 60% in favour of the better players.

    They won't of course, because Bli$$ard cares only about money after Activision took them over and because David Kim and Dustin Browder are literally braindead.

    destructable rocks added to the 'd' and 'r' keys.

  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    I'm not surprised that CatZ's real life decision making abilities are as terrible as his in-game decision making abilities.

    SaarutomEEksaMMMig
  • shwaipshwaip Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    I'm not surprised that CatZ's real life decision making abilities are as terrible as his in-game decision making abilities.

    "Well I was going to install a hot tub in my house, but someone was in the way so I put it in their house"

  • TannerMSTannerMS Registered User regular
    Man, this page was intense

    I really wanted to play tonight but this optimization thing is taking fucking ages

  • Edgler VessEdgler Vess Registered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    Watching grubby just get completely destroyed by morrow over and over and over again on his stream.

    zerg are just straight up better than protoss. There is no other way to put it. Its not that protoss can't win in PvZ. Its just that it is a lot easier for zerg to do so.

    As an aside, its fucking annoying to watch pros stay in games they've clearly lost for another 20 minutes for no fucking reason. You have no mining bases to his 3. you have 70 supply to his 200. JUST. FUCKING. LEAVE.

    Quote from a page back, just so everyone knows (and im sure is probably aware) this isn't a problem isolated to the pros, its everywhere, I had a guy down to 2 starships (whatever they are, terran spaceship things, the big ones) and he made me run all over the map with a HUGE swarm of zerglings to find his two anti-air towers and actually beat him, maybe he thought I would let him turtle his spaceships around the map and take out all my NINE hives, but erm, no, your dead, quit wasting my and your time, even though we are in bronze. and a shout out to @dhalphir, I win stuff now, sometimes.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    Watching grubby just get completely destroyed by morrow over and over and over again on his stream.

    zerg are just straight up better than protoss. There is no other way to put it. Its not that protoss can't win in PvZ. Its just that it is a lot easier for zerg to do so.

    As an aside, its fucking annoying to watch pros stay in games they've clearly lost for another 20 minutes for no fucking reason. You have no mining bases to his 3. you have 70 supply to his 200. JUST. FUCKING. LEAVE.

    Quote from a page back, just so everyone knows (and im sure is probably aware) this isn't a problem isolated to the pros, its everywhere, I had a guy down to 2 starships (whatever they are, terran spaceship things, the big ones) and he made me run all over the map with a HUGE swarm of zerglings to find his two anti-air towers and actually beat him, maybe he thought I would let him turtle his spaceships around the map and take out all my NINE hives, but erm, no, your dead, quit wasting my and your time, even though we are in bronze. and a shout out to @dhalphir, I win stuff now, sometimes.

    great to hear

    let me know if you want more time.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • redraptorredraptor Registered User regular
    I don't know what you are trying to say Yilias, your argument seems to be.

    -High tech Protoss units are all super powerful with no drawback
    -High tech Protoss units are too flimsy and hard to afford/tech to

    That is ....uh the relationship that they are designed under.

    The problem with Protoss is it was not so secretly designed for super noobs to play so all its pillar mechanics suck hard. Brood War protoss stabilized itself into higher tech by rewarding control with harresment units, sneakiness, or aggresion.

    But SC2 Protoss stabilizes itself into higher tech with either executing retarded two base allns or threatening them enough in addition to shielding information to sneak out expansions.

    Unfortunately Warp gate as low tier tech choice makes aggression completely non-granular, you are either fucking going all out or you are faking that to extend the game. Forcefield just accentuates this by turning battles into either yes/no situations instead of 'maybe just a little bit'.

    mEEksa
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    @redraptor for someone who spends a lot of time insulting Protoss players you just did an excellent job of explaining very accurately why i sometimes hate playing protoss

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    guys, don't take yilias' post seriously

    if you look, it's an exact copy of jaziek's just with a few name changes

    suppose to highlight the silliness of the arguments

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    guys, don't take yilias' post seriously

    if you look, it's an exact copy of jaziek's just with a few name changes

    suppose to highlight the silliness of the arguments

    except the difference is that jazieks post had elements of truth where yilias' did not

    High templars are an example of how to do a caster unit right

    They are weak, slow, expensive, their spells are not particularly versatile - feedback is great for fighting energy units and storm is great for aoe damage, and that's about it.

    Infestors are not high templar.
    They have no weaknesses. They are easily protected if you're not fucking retarded. They aren't particularly vulnerable to EMP, you typically can't get templars close enough to feedback them, fungal is brutal damage and stupidly easy to chain cast.

    I don't know how anyone can disagree that infestors are too versatile.


    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • mEEksamEEksa Registered User regular
    People take note, Redraptor showed how to make a good post about the actual design problems inherent in the PvZ match-up without having to resort to balance whining.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    What I'd like to see is diminishing returns on fungal snare.

    First cast - full duration 4 seconds 100% snare

    Second cast - full duration 4 seconds 50% snare

    Third cast - half duration 50% snare

    Fourth cast no snare at all only damage

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    guys, don't take yilias' post seriously

    if you look, it's an exact copy of jaziek's just with a few name changes

    suppose to highlight the silliness of the arguments

    Yeah I'm really confused as to how people missed this.

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  • KambingKambing Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Infestors are not high templar.
    They have no weaknesses. They are easily protected if you're not fucking retarded. They aren't particularly vulnerable to EMP, you typically can't get templars close enough to feedback them, fungal is brutal damage and stupidly easy to chain cast.

    I'll chime in. This is without a doubt the stupidest thing I've read in the thread in a long time.

    I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or serious, but that kind of thought process is the hallmark of the worst of TL balance whining.

    Kambing on
    @TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
    mEEksakedinik
  • SorCSorC Registered User regular
    Kambing wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Infestors are not high templar.
    They have no weaknesses. They are easily protected if you're not fucking retarded. They aren't particularly vulnerable to EMP, you typically can't get templars close enough to feedback them, fungal is brutal damage and stupidly easy to chain cast.

    I'll chime in. This is without a doubt the stupidest thing I've read in the thread in a long time.

    I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or serious, but that kind of thought process is the hallmark of the worst of TL balance whining.

    Dhal may be going over the top a little, but infestors are far more versatile than all the other caster units in the game.

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  • TannerMSTannerMS Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Infestors are more versatile than other casters because zerg units suck ass. Dhal's proposed change would make 3 base pre-broodlord colossus play unbeatable. Every zerg unit has an almost identical Terran or Protoss counterpart that's better in every way except zerglings.

    We don't even have neural any more to deal with that bullshit.

    TannerMS on
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