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[WIN8 & WIN10] Search Energy Star, learn about windows in windows using Windows.

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Posts

  • FalkenFalken Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    If we're talking functionality, why is there both "PC Settings" and "Control Panel" and why do they do similar, but different things?

    And why is shut down hidden inside a "settings" menu? A menu which is selected from what they call the "charms" bar, which is selected by asking someone else how you do it. (the answer: hover over an unmarked corner)

    This is anti function, and pretty user hostile to boot. Good lord, imagine if your car ignition key lived under the hood. And to open the hood you had to hover your hand inside the wheel spokes. And there's no "hover hand here for hood access" sticker on the wheel.

    Falken on
  • MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    I don't remember the blog covering that, but I suspect it's because current machines don't need to be shut down. You just stand up and walk away or hit a sleep button if a tablet or laptop.

    Where I do think you might have some validity in your argument is about whether or not the data driven approach is the best one, particularly where there's a learning curve involved. So stuff like this - for that 10 or 20% or whatever of users who actually do shut down a machine using software buttons every time - they're left behind and find it immensely painful.

    That said, I feel that catering to those types of legacy users is part of what's given MS so much of a hard time over the years - trying to be everything for everyone, even those customers who have little interest in anything more than using Win 95 for a decade or two without change or hardware upgrade.

    snm_sig.jpg
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Falken, you might want to actually learn how a platform works before you bash it on technical terms.

    Live Tiles can only come from store approved apps, and store approved apps aren't going to be malware. To top it off, live tiles are incredibly constrained in their layout and size. They can't just display whatever the fuck they want. There are around 20 templates that a live tile can display, and they are fixed. They also require the user to grant them special permissions at install time to do pretty much anything of substance.

    So no, Start Areas won't end up looking like that.

    e: And just to be clear, I've actually written a Metro app with a primary and secondary live tile. I'm not just talking out my butt. They are incredibly restrictive, and we actually had to design heavily around these restrictions.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    I haven't shutdown or slept using a software button in years. Press my power button to sleep, hold to shutdown, and the OS responds accordingly. Perhaps because my computer is built and configured correctly, the fact that the Shutdown option is one click farther away than normal doesn't upset me.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Basically the only thing that is correct in that photoshop is the top right bit where it shows an icon and the username

    Dehumanized on
  • FalkenFalken Registered User regular
    Um what. No, I'm not leaving my computer on standby all day.

    Still, you're calling anyone with a desktop computer a "legacy user". And you think halfassedly metroing Windows 7 is the way to break legacy pandering.

    Newsflash: The very existence of a "desktop" and being able to run old software at all is legacy pandering, and it's suffering for it.

    They're even legacy pandering with the Surface. They want to go metro-only for the ARM model, leaving legacy behind, except the office team don't like metro. So they end up dragging all of this legacy crap (window management, a million APIs...) onto ARM windows just for a couple of programs. Microsoft has defeated itself.

    Then there's the very existence of the X86 Surface. This is the hip new trendy device, only now it can be sold to uncaring corporate environments who really just want a low end dell desktop to run their 1996 in-house legacy software.

    WinPhone7 has a dumb name but is actually good. Because they designed a UI specific to phones and started from the ground up with no legacy constraints.

    Win8 is Microsoft wanting to do the same for computers. Only marketing is terrified of losing legacy user dollars because it wouldn't run already mentioned prehistoric software, and ballmer threw a chair and screamed something about "make it like the phones! People like the phones! Do the phones again!" and then we get this mess.

    I'd accuse the windows team of cargo culting winphone, except win 7 proved they know what a good OS is. So I'm going to guess they're forced into abusing metro onto the desktop from above.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    Here's an idea: Don't use Windows 8 if you don't like it. You've already proven your willing to use bad photoshops and weak "technical" arguments to prove some phantom point you have, so here, let me save you the time: We see your point, we don't care.

    Keep using Windows 7. Congratulations, you've succeeded in having your cake and eating it to.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • FalkenFalken Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    It was actually a really good photoshop, but imgur trashed the image quality because it converted to jpg, after I reuploaded it when someone pointed out a one pixel nipple. It's a known issue with imgur.

    And no, Saying that my point is wrong without saying why doesn't disprove it. Your shoes are ugly! I won't say why. You mentioned a "weak technical argument" when all I've pointed out are a) things that happen and b) things that are in windows 8 does.

    It's how discussion works. I say "I think X because Y." and show you Y. Then you do the same. Not "I don't care you're wrong because i said so".

    Falken on
  • MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    Yes, actually. From what I can tell you're a very vocal fringe case @Falken. Desktops are increasingly specialist gaming or workstation tools - that's been trending for years.

    I think @GnomeTank probably has good advice.

    snm_sig.jpg
  • FalkenFalken Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Please leave your mom's basement and get a job. There you'll learn desktops are on desks. At work. Where your job is.

    That might sound rude, but I can only assume you've never seen a computer in a work environment. Laptops are given only to those who need to move about a lot. Hell, it might surprise you, but at "work" you're most likely to see a bunch of old Dell towers! Shocking, I know. Nary an alienware laptop in sight.

    Falken on
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Falken wrote: »
    It was actually a really good photoshop, but imgur trashed the image quality because it converted to jpg, after I reuploaded it when someone pointed out a one pixel nipple. It's a known issue with imgur.

    And no, Saying that my point is wrong without saying why doesn't disprove it. Your shoes are ugly! I won't say why. You mentioned a "weak technical argument" when all I've pointed out are a) things that happen and b) things that are in windows 8 does.

    It's how discussion works. I say "I think X because Y." and show you Y. Then you do the same. Not "I don't care you're wrong because i said so".

    Either you're trolling, or thick as a brick wall, because I just pointed out in a post three above yours why your technical argument is weak.

    You're not wrong because I said so. You're wrong because I've actually written a Metro app with live tiles and you're wrong. Have you written any Metro apps with live tiles? Or do you like to just talk to actual software professionals like you know what you're talking about when you don't?

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    No, it's a terrible photoshop. There's almost nothing resembling truth in it. It is not representative of Windows 8 RTM; it's not even representative of Windows 8 Developer Preview, which it is a photoshop of, and most of the things that have been shopped on there which are intended to showcase the nonexistent horrors possible are in fact simply straight up not possible.

  • FalkenFalken Registered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »

    Either you're trolling, or thick as a brick wall, because I just pointed out in a post three above yours why your technical argument is weak.

    You're not wrong because I said so. You're wrong because I've actually written a Metro app with live tiles and you're wrong. Have you written any Metro apps with live tiles? Or do you like to just talk to actual software professionals like you know what you're talking about when you don't?

    No, you've said I'm wrong. You won't explain why though. Tell me what is wrong. Disprove me, using your words.

    Not "I said you're wrong! Because you're wrong!" Explain.

  • FalkenFalken Registered User regular
    No, it's a terrible photoshop. There's almost nothing resembling truth in it. It is not representative of Windows 8 RTM; it's not even representative of Windows 8 Developer Preview, which it is a photoshop of, and most of the things that have been shopped on there which are intended to showcase the nonexistent horrors possible are in fact simply straight up not possible.

    Alright, now explain why.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Okay, you're trolling. I gave you very specific details on how live tiles work: They are templated, they require permissions, and they can only be provided by store approved apps, which go through a certification and code signing process.

    Here, I'ill give you some more:

    They run in a special version of the .NET framework called WinRT. That special framework is incredibly limited, lacking some very specific and powerful API's (even the System.Managment WIMS stuff is missing). This environment they run in is completely cut off from the regular windows environment, except for very specific API's, which are again, incredibly limited. Metro apps can't even ask the system how many logical processors it has, because WinRT provides you a thread pool that you are supposed to use.

    There are around 25 Win32 API calls you can make from a WinRT app, and they are all informational. Almost none of the Window hooking tricks malware uses is even possible in a WinRT app. It's a special, locked down, sandbox.

    Now as far as your "disprove" me line, that's total logical fallacy bullshit, and you know it. I don't have to disprove anything. You need to come up to my level of technical knowledge and PROVE TO ME how that is going to happen, when I know better.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • FalkenFalken Registered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    Okay, you're trolling.

    No, I disagree with you. Trolling is when you merely pretend to disagree to get a rise out of someone.
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    I gave you very specific details on how live tiles work: They are templated, they require permissions, and they can only be provided by store approved apps, which go through a certification and code signing process.

    Here, I'ill give you some more:

    They run in a special version of the .NET framework called WinRT. That special framework is incredibly limited, lacking some very specific and powerful API's (even the System.Managment WIMS stuff is missing). This environment they run in is completely cut off from the regular windows environment, except for very specific API's, which are again, incredibly limited. Metro apps can't even ask the system how many logical processors it has, because WinRT provides you a thread pool that you are supposed to use.

    There are around 25 Win32 API calls you can make from a WinRT app, and they are all informational. Almost none of the Window hooking tricks malware uses is even possible in a WinRT app. It's a special, locked down, sandbox.

    Okay bro, now tell me, how does any of this stop a malicious program on the "real" windows side from screwing with the metro environment? Oh wait, it doesn't. Once grandma clicks away UAC while she's browsing in desktop IE her machine is ruined. Hell, you could trash all those metro tiles, reboot and wheeee! They're back again.

    You do realize you're claiming windows 8 is the gibson re: metro tiles, right? That's silly. You're painting a target on yourself.
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    Now as far as your "disprove" me line, that's total logical fallacy bullshit, and you know it. I don't have to disprove anything. You need to come up to my level of technical knowledge and PROVE TO ME how that is going to happen, when I know better.

    I see, you don't need to have a reason for what you say, because you have decided I am tech untermensch. Cool.

  • MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    Falken wrote: »
    Please leave your mom's basement and get a job. There you'll learn desktops are on desks. At work. Where your job is.

    That might sound rude, but I can only assume you've never seen a computer in a work environment. Laptops are given only to those who need to move about a lot. Hell, it might surprise you, but at "work" you're most likely to see a bunch of old Dell towers! Shocking, I know. Nary an alienware laptop in sight.

    Ignoring your ad hominem - docked laptops hooked up to a 22" monitor are the machine du jour around here. People have older Dell desktops used as test or dev machines, but their primary devices are ThinkPad 410s or 420s. I use my Series 7 Slate as a primary device.

    You've been given a bunch of examples to support others' opinions, but you've ignored them. Perhaps we should start with some quotes from the Windows development blog? I didn't quote from it before as I figured anyone discussing Win8 would be familiar with the details, but if that's a challenge, we could probably cut and paste something.

    snm_sig.jpg
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited August 2012
    I shouldn't even respond to this, but I'm going to anyway:

    The sandbox works both ways. Win32 can't interact with WinRT anymore than WinRT can interact with it. They are shut off from each other, to prevent explicitly what you think is going to happen. Surprise, the company who has spent more time and money dealing with malware over the years, thought about malware when they designed WinRT.

    e: Also, I'd like to point out, I am responding not because I want to prove Falken "wrong" (or even care what he thinks), but the next person who reads this thread needs to understand the technical details from someone who actually understands them.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited August 2012
    For reference: here's a modern office setup:

    WP_000276.jpg

    Most of my peers and team replace the tablet with the laptop and dock. The 19" is hooked up to the secondary machine, which I use as an archiving device and for some LOB applications.

    This is the kind of scenario my Win8 experience is based off of. Also why I'm so passionate about defending Windows 8.

    Morskittar on
    snm_sig.jpg
  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    Taskbar at the top, @Morskittar? Pfffft, obviously we can't listen to you. You're clearly crazy. :wink:

  • JacksWastedLifeJacksWastedLife Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    Ooo I can play too!

    WP_000195.jpg?psid=1&ck=0&ex=720

    The laptop and monitor are provided by the company I work for. The 7 Slate is my own. Windows 8 all around.

    JacksWastedLife on
  • MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    And on the left on the tablet. Crazy and inconsistent. :D

    snm_sig.jpg
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    I think he's an ex-Mac user...that's what I am choosing to believe.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • FalkenFalken Registered User regular
    Morskittar wrote: »
    For reference: here's a modern office setup:

    WP_000276.jpg

    Most of my peers and team replace the tablet with the laptop and dock. The 19" is hooked up to the secondary machine, which I use as an archiving device and for some LOB applications.

    This is the kind of scenario my Win8 experience is based off of. Also why I'm so passionate about defending Windows 8.

    Oh, this is christmas. "windows 8 can get away with shitting on desktop users because they're a minority! To prove it, see I use a desktop everyday!"

  • centraldogmacentraldogma Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    I shouldn't even respond to this, but I'm going to anyway:

    The sandbox works both ways. Win32 can't interact with WinRT anymore than WinRT can interact with it. They are shut off from each other, to prevent explicitly what you think is going to happen. Surprise, the company who has spent more time and money dealing with malware over the years, thought about malware when they designed WinRT.

    e: Also, I'd like to point out, I am responding not because I want to prove Falken "wrong" (or even care what he thinks), but the next person who reads this thread needs to understand the technical details from someone who actually understands them.

    That's not exactly true. From a desktop application, you can start and stop Metro apps at will. And AFAIK, you can install Metro apps from a program. There's no sandbox around desktop apps, just as there hasn't been in previous versions of Windows.

    Edit: Here's a rough idea of how you would go about installing a Metro app from a desktop program: http://answers.flyppdevportal.com/categories/metro/csharpvb.aspx?ID=a4d2fca1-4034-4cc7-a86a-6242ce1a8b16

    centraldogma on
    When people unite together, they become stronger than the sum of their parts.
    Don't assume bad intentions over neglect and misunderstanding.
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited August 2012
    There is no sandbox around desktop apps, but there is a wall of sandbox between Metro and the desktop. You can start and stop Metro apps, because they are processes with pids just like everything else. You can even put a shortcut to a Metro app in the Start Area, but you can't actually BE a metro app from a raw desktop app. They are separate worlds.

    I'd also like to point out that even the link you provided says you need full admin rights for a desktop app to push a Metro app using the package manager.

    The only way to install a Metro app without getting an admin rights popup is through the store, and the store has it's own version of that pop up via the permissions window where it asks if you want to grant the requested permissions.

    Someone earlier said "well what if grandma turns UAC off?!"...I'm not sure about you, but my grandma doesn't know what UAC is or how to turn it off. Only someone who was technically literate would know how to do that, and if my grandma asked I'd tell her no and why I was leaving it on for her. If your grandma turns UAC off, she either knows computers well enough to know the risk she's taking, or someone who does know computers well enough gave her potentially terrible advice.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    Falken wrote: »
    Oh, this is christmas. "windows 8 can get away with shitting on desktop users because they're a minority! To prove it, see I use a desktop everyday!"

    That's what you took from what I wrote? OK.

    snm_sig.jpg
  • chamberlainchamberlain Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    @GnomeTalk, perhaps you can help me with a Windows 8 problem.

    I am trying to install an application that uses IIS. I have installed IIS with the same options that I would in Windows 7, but the installer does not 'see' IIS. It just complains that it is not present. The UAC is off and I have tried running the installer as an administrator.

    Any ideas?

    I apologize for not having more details, but I am not a developer, just the guy who has to make the software do what it is supposed to do.

    chamberlain on
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited August 2012
    @GnomeTalk, perhaps you can help me with a Windows 8 problem.

    I am trying to install an application that uses IIS. I have installed IIS with the same options that I would in Windows 7, but the installer does not 'see' IIS. It just complains that it is not present. The UAC is off and I have tried running the installer as an administrator.

    Any ideas?

    I apologize for not having more details, but I am not a developer, just the guy who has to make the software do what it is supposed to do.

    I wish I could help, but I haven't tried to do anything with IIS on Windows 8 yet. I do almost no web development. Even the "web services" I write tend to be embedded in regular windows apps and are self hosting.

    My guess is that it's the installers fault, not Win8 or IIS. It's likely that whatever that installer is checking to know IIS is installed has changed between versions, and the installer isn't updated. I have no idea what that could be...probably a registry setting or a file though.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • chamberlainchamberlain Registered User regular
    Thanks, that is what I was afraid of.

  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    Depending on how old the software is, it might be looking for the IIS6 management modules... have you tried adding those?

    Add features to Windows -> Internet Information Services -> Web Management Tools -> IIS 6 Management Compatibility

    That said, I haven't touched IIS in Win8 aside from IIS Express, which is a lightweight developer version of the software.

  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    Hit Ctrl+Alt+Del and what do you know, there's a power icon that lets you shutdown the machine. So anyone using Windows since forever (Win95?) knows how to shutdown their machine.

    I'm wondering if a lot of the gripes with Win8 has to do with mousing/trackpad UI issues. Once you have the hotkeys down it's just as navigable as Win7, but faster.

    @chamberlain FYI, the IIS that's available for client OS (e.g XP, Vista, 7) is different than the version shipped on server OS. We've had issues come up where logic/pages work on a development machine (Win 7 Pro running IIS 7.0) but not working on a server (Windows server 2008 running IIS 7.0). Haven't determined yet what the difference is.

  • chamberlainchamberlain Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    I did put those in, as it required them for Windows 7 installs. No dice.

    Just heard back from the vendor and they told me to take a flying leap. :)

    Thankfully there is enough space on my vhosts for another server or two, I can just put it there instead.

    @Djeet It is fine on 2008 and 7. This makes me want to download the Server 2012 release candidate and try it out on that.

    chamberlain on
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    Again, people still use software shutdown?

    I guess I don't begrudge them, but OS's have been able to detect the power button and respond accordingly for at least a decade. I haven't seen a system in a while that didn't have press to sleep/hold to shut down functionality with it's power button.

    People will use what they are used to though.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • emp123emp123 Registered User regular
    People shutdown their computer? I just put mine to sleep and walk away.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    emp123 wrote: »
    People shutdown their computer? I just put mine to sleep and walk away.

    This is what I do. Only time mine does a full restart is once a week when I have it do a full virus scan, update and defrag pass on my spindle HDD. This happens at like 3 am Sunday -> Monday, and Sunday night is the only night I don't sleep my machine before I go to bed.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited August 2012
    emp123 wrote: »
    People shutdown their computer? I just put mine to sleep and walk away.

    Not by choice (personally). I only shutdown for reboot cycles. Someone is going to workaround the issue where if you elect to shutdown Windows after an update has been applied you will be notified whether or not it will take a half hour to do the shutdown since eleventy jillion "updates are being applied" and you may not shutdown or unplug the computer, and then be granted the option to suspend/sleep/hibernate instead of shutting down or rebooting. And whoever does that is going to get a fucking medal.

    Djeet on
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    They tell us to shutdown our PC's at work...none of us do. IT yells at the non developers for it, but they learned early on to just let us do what we're going to do. Because we're going to do it whether they like it or not, barring some serious firepower from a higher up who doesn't care at all either way.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
  • LaCabraLaCabra MelbourneRegistered User regular
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    That's the Infinity Blade (well, citadel) demo for the iPad.

    Which is also UE3, so yeah. Cross platform iOS-winRT will be a thing. Niiiice.

    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
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