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The companies that dub... suck. Discuss here!
Posts
I get that you think it's wrong to use more precise definitions as a device to illustrate a concept I just don't much care that you think that.
Oh that's right, Eva was one of the handful that weren't originally manga. I forgot.
I don't have an Eva DVD to pop in, and I never will, because it's drivel and I'm not spending my money on that. And I've only ever tried to watch it in Japanese. Because people who do have a copy of Eva insist upon it. I think the whole project works against itself by being mostly about how everybody whines and also about hey how "cool" the bible would be if it were written by a Japanese guy on an acid-trip.
If you use the anime-nerd definition instead of the technical definition of dub, and if you are convinced you included "some" or "most" or any kind of wording that allows for exceptions, and assume that only a small minority of film is a purely economic pursuit in the first place, you have a point.
Once again, just because you don't like a contribution doesn't mean it's not.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
I don't think it's wrong to use more precise definitions. I think colloquial terms are valid while engaged in discourse, though. I don't think pedantry - which is what you were and are engaged in - is "wrong," I think it is "obnoxious." And it's quite obvious that you don't care that you are obnoxious, you don't have to tell me that.
And even if it weren't, your point here (the one you are alluding to, since you actually haven't presented any point) would still not be valid. If you actually want to make a point, I'll refute it.
Nobody cares what you think of Evangelion, least of all me. It is irrelevant in this topic. I am discussing the relationship of the spoken voices to the artistic integrity, or if that term doesn't work for you, the "gist" of the project. Whether you liked Evangelion or not, the writers, artists, and ultimately the director was trying to convey a message. The Japanese audio track succeeds in conveying that message and the English audio track is less successful, quite a bit so.
Oh, look, the feminist is trying to disparage me as an "anime-nerd." Okay there, Mr. Hypocrite. I'm thrilled that my point and this subject is beneath you and that the widely-accepted colloqualisms are apparently irrelevant because, hey, ViolentChemistry says so! Actually, I'm not. I don't care what you think of us "anime-nerds" or that you reject colloquialisms in discourse.
Back to "dubs are an abomination." Since you expect others to take leaps and guess at your points without you actually stating them, I fully expect you to do the minimal amount of brain work required to comprehend this point: the concept of English dubs is an abomination. Localization is the norm rather than the exception but a quality localization is the exception rather than the norm. Therefore, despite the fact that there are rare well-acted English, the whole process is an abomination. Again, I would think you'd have known this, but maybe I'm giving you too much intellectual credit. My mistake.
Let's go back and see what you've contributed to this topic:
a) You leapt into the thread and called the original poster a mouth-breather.
b) You've called me an "anime-nerd."
c) You've presented a number of snide comments which are apparently the mouthpiece for your brilliant fits of logic...that come three posts later in a long-winded, pointless, sometimes unrelated diatribe.
d) Not to mention pedantry.
I appreciate you finally taking the time to contribute some points, but if you honestly think your behavior early in this thread amounted to anything resembling a "contribution," you should really re-evalute your concept of "discourse" and maybe even your concept of "contribution," because I get the sense that you just like to leap on topics that you personally consider beneath you. I don't really care what you do though. Apparently that's how you get your jollies, so have at it. It would be nice if you actually made some value-add posts instead of sniping at threads on topics that are apparently beneath you. I mean, it's not like you've ever been asked to stop trolling in D&D, right? So maybe I'm wrong!
Listen to it again if you have to.
Did you miss my point or did you skip over it on purpose? I'll restate it intact for you:
And I'll also explain. You stated that it would be stupid to release a game "only in Japanese" and that games that are only in Japanese take you out of the game.
Since you don't comprehend Japanese, please explain to me how Japanese and Gibberish are not exactly the same thing, at least with regard to your feeling about the game? What changes when the Gibberish is specifically Japanese?
The voices in Shadow of the Colossus are not English and they are subtitled. So please explain to me why that is okay but a similar game in Japanese with English subtitles would not be.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
Unable to speak/understand != unable to recognize. What changes is that the characters are suddenly Japanese, rather than denziens of a mystical, magical fantasy world. Going to all the trouble of inventing a pretend-language wasn't an accident, it was done very specifically to place the player in a realm of fantasy. It's not like in Eva where everyone speaks Japanese just because that's what the original audience understands, or like in Die Hard where Hans tells his German minion "Schiess den Fenster" and then clarifies in English when the German guy doesn't understand German "shoot the glass" because the original audience understands English, not German. That's what changes. The language becomes actually relevant to the expression. See also Fulltime Killer, where different characters speak different combinations of English, Japanese and Cantonese depending on their backgrounds.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
Eva is certainly not the shining example of english dubbing perfection, though.
They don't use professional actors.
You know the great voice artists like Rob Paulsen or Nancy Cartwright? They work the same way screen actors do. They have agents, who go out and "sell" their clients talents and land them auditions, and then they audition and get the part. They join unions like SAG and AFTRA to ensure that they get paid fairly compared to their peers.
Anime? They don't use agents. They don't go through agents. They hold their own auditions for non-union talent, pay their actors less, and sign them on for season-by-season type deals. Sure, sometimes a great voice actor will slip through, but most of the great ones have agents and are getting paid a lot more, and those people can't get jobs with anime companies because the anime companies won't hire union talent because it "costs too much".
edit: for the record I love the Japanese version of Cowboy Bebop, but some anime (and games) in Japanese have some pretty terrible acting. The English version of Final Fantasy X, for instance, had acting that was leaps and bounds better than the Japanese version. (and Square, fyi, uses unionized talent for the FF games)
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For me, anything dubbed by The Ocean Group is an instant win. From Ranma 1/2, Gundam Wing, and DBZ before it went in the shitter, to the more recent Megaman games (Command Mission, X8, MHX, and Powered up. Universally agreed by all as the ONLY time anybody has ever nailed english voices in a Megaman game). One of the few dubbing groups that actually "gets it".
Even then, I think we're starting to see more respect for VA work now than we did even 10 years ago or so. Most middle to high profile games are paying attention to voice quality now. Kingdom Hearts, Metal Gear Solid, Digital Devil Saga, Rogue Galaxy, most N1 games, ect. All games I pulled out of my collection that have great voice work. And with most of them, because most of their actors are actually veterans who also do professional animated work. One problem for me though is that, after playing so many games, I'm starting to instantly recognize and pick out popular voice actors. Jennifer Hale, Crispin Freeman, Steven Blum, Cam Clarke. The second I hear them in a game, my mind instantly picks up on it and begins running through the ol' rolodex trying to find which character they're just repeating. But again, that's just my personal problem, and it's not a serious one.
At the end of the day though, this entire discussion comes down to personal opinion. I mean, I kinda have a high tolerance for bad VA work. I stomached Evangelion well enough, but I can totally see how some of it was real shit. Like in that clip above where Asuka sounds like a 40 year old who's pitching her voice way too high and screechy at times. Still though, what might be pure shit for one might be perfectly acceptable to another.
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Yeah, I cussed...
This would be relevant if any of it were FirstComradeStalin's point. Protip: It wasn't. A good many people dislike subs and prefer localized dubs simply because they "hate reading" in their movies. Which is fine, but kind of lazy in my opinion, and isn't a very good argument against subtitles in the subtitles vs. dubs debate.
Sadly we buy the product. Why? Because there is no alternative. And when there is an alternative that beats it we eat it up. FAST! There has been countless ports that pale in comparison to a decent port at the time, and we dismiss most of them because the one that is presented better to us is what we secretly desire even while we meditate on the cud that is thrown up for us.
Thus it has been done, thus it shall be... Until we find enough of something better to make them want to put quality in for them to be able to sell to us at all.
If Naruto was being presented as it should be, anyone who likes anime here in the states would be awestruck by it.
If some of the video games that have gotten kiddie voices recently were simply stripped of the voices, we might enjoy them more.
If they cared about craftsmanship and artistry when importing a product, we, as a culture here in the U.S., would be making the transition to wanting more international media.
Or if I didn't care what FirstComradeStalin's point was. The fact that that wasn't his point doesn't make what I said any less valid. In the end, unless the spoken language used is selected deliberately as a part of the intended experience or relevant to the story, it can be dubbed in other languages well. But if it is, then your claim that localization is an abomination holds a bit of water.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
I think it's about fan dubs.
subs vs dubs ololz, mostly.
irt cenj; what have you been told about thinking?
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
Bad Voice Acting.
As it was my first post... I hadn't intended on it going in this direction... but now it is aparently about Dubs and Subs?
Eh w/e.
Look, maybe your phrasing's just weird, but it looks like you're blaming the consumer for crappy choices made by a production company. that's bizarre.
I am blaming the company for doing it. Make no mistake about that.
They have ruined art.
I do slightly blame other people for endorsing such things... Like adult swim or cartoon network for buying it and airing it.
To the mod:
SOrry I changed the heading to this.. I just kinda thought the new title sucked. HAH...
Apology in advance.
Wait.
What.
The FFX english voice acting was OK, but had awkward parts.
I've never heard the Japanese version though but I've always heard it was better.
Confused here.
You have to realize something, however: They wouldn't do that if they thought people wanted it another way. Most people don't like having to read subtitles, and the people that most cartoons are marketed to in the US (read:children) don't care about voice acting quality.
Allow me to quote myself....
Sorry for sounding pretentious.
Thing is they, they always do quality work. They may not have range(Blum and Hale do. Only problem is they're type-casted as the "badass mercenary" and the "sultry-but-strong lead female") but they do their voices just fine.
Yeah I really wish Naruto was being presented as a show about vaguely ninja-like fighters that was aimed at the middle school-aged children of the country with enough blood to keep them interested while not offending anyone too terribly.
Oh, wait.
Are you gonna tell me Sasuke's voice-actor pronounces all the Japanese words wrong?
I really want you to.
So I can drop the bomb that he, along with like 2 or 3 other voice actors on the show, are actually fluent in Japanese.
Yeah... I will say it. Sasuke's voice actor sucks... < a lie.
Supporting characters are where some of the real problems are.
I can think of the gatekeeper in Bleach for instance... In the Jap version he has a really masculine voice (he is a ~20ft tall beefed up and intimidating man with two huge axes.) and his lines are very comical.
In the English dubs... His voice is ridiculous. And a lot of the comedy and fierceness of his lines were taken out.
This sucked.
As for Naruto... Jaraiya is one character that I have already mentioned as being horribly Dubed...
Also, taking out the adult comedy ruins a lot of the orig characters. You cannot argue against that any way you want to look at it.
Kakashi isnt a romance novelist enthusiast, juraiya doesnt write them, juraiya isnt "ero-senin", and tsunade isnt the "top heavy" granny tsunade she was meant to be.
The first title of this thread was something along the lines of "rules to importing"
I would like to add another.
Do not change characters personalities and types just for censorship. If this has to be done for a new target audience... DONT #$%&ing DO IT!
Kakashi's never late because he's reading a porn book, and not the type to go "Uh...it's a romance novel." rather than "It's porn".
Jiraiya's not a "pervy sage"(oh wait, Naruto calls him just that.
And they totally edited out Tsunade's top-heavyness which isn't really part of the character so much as a design quirk.
Christ, at least shit on Digimon or Sailor Moon. Then I won't be able to defend them, alright? Because right now, all you've proven is that you hate pretty much anything dubbed. You are being completely and totally unfair just because it's not "pure", and THIS is why no one takes you seriously.
And for fuck sake, if you don't wanna swear, just leave the word OUT. Don't censor it with random crap.
Yeah, it makes you look like you have no vocabulary to speak of if you can't say what you mean without using a chunk of gibberish to denote the presence of words you consider yourself too good for. When the rest of us say fuckshitass we're at least saying what we mean.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
that's it. That is the whole discussion. If you want subs, they are on damn near every dvd. If you want to watch stuff on tv, it will be dubbed. I don't like it, cause I don't like dubbed stuff, but then I don't actually like all that much anime that is on american TV anyway.
It has become a totally moot point for me. I don't like dubs, so I don't watch them. Choice is really great thing.
censorship is always stupid. If your market isn't ok with two of the villains being gay for each other, the character slapping the shit out of each other, and some third thing I can't think of off hand, then you really should be thinking twice about bringing it to that market, rather than figuring out how much of it you can leave on the cutting room floor while still having a semi cohesive plot.
Click here for a horrible H/A thread with details.
I was saying that they took that out... You kinda got the context wrong... but its cool.
Um... I have mentioned anime that have been dubbed well... So um... yeah... O_o
I can agree with most of that. -Some- of the anime on [as] is still decent at least though.
I watch enough anime as it is, I don't need to be tired at work just to watch a tiny bit more which I'm not really interested in.
I don't have a problem with adult swim, I just don't watch it anymore. They've show a fair amount of good stuff, including some of the better dubbed stuff out there. It is good that it gets more people to be fans of the medium. It just isn't for me, anymore.
edit:If I ever had a nelson box, it would watch adult swim. Damn straight. I've just become a pussy that can't stay up that late.
Click here for a horrible H/A thread with details.
For serious? The instant you hear something in Japanese rather than in English, it loses all meaning? No intonation, no emotion? I... cannot possibly fathom that. The reason I don't listen to dub is because, for the most part, it sounds either lifeless or like it's missing something. Even the really good stuff, such as Bebop; Faye sounded a bit less intelligent than she did in the original Japanese.
I don't mind dub (I have a couple of friends who just can't read fast enough to keep up with subs), but if I have the option I'm not going to listen to it. But I still find the idea of "it's not in my native language, therefore ceases to convey any sort of information to me" to be supremely bizarre.
(Mostly unrelated and slightly hypocritical: I cannot wait until Lucky Star gets an English dub. That intro is going to be an exercise in ear-shattering horror. Whether it beats Excel Saga remains to be seen.)
Word.
Most people, when they do not understand a language, do not get any sort of information from that language being spoken to them.
So, no, it's not bizarre that people who don't understand Japanese to listen to something in Japanese.
I don't speak Japanese. I understand the occasional word after hearing them enough, but not enough to make sense of things. I can still tell when someone is angry or sad or plotting evil things or has a burning soul or whatever the shit else might be going on, and I honestly don't understand how other people can't. It's just weird to me.
Edit: oh yeah, Hayter is awesome. About the best voice actor I can think of.
Naruto's english voice actors sort of annoy the hell out of me.
Also - ghost in the shell...my favorite series ever...they made the police chief sound pretty dumb.
There are only two dubs that I've seen that the complete miscasting of a character makes me not want to watch it that way, Love Hina and Escaflowne. In Love Hina they give one of the characters this super thick southern accent. Now I understand that in the original she has something of an accent, but man, the english accent they gave her is just offputting. Escaflowne was all well and good until you got to Dilandau. Dilandau is this manic, insane, pyro teenager that had a really disturbing voice when he would get going with his insanity. In the english dub he was voiced by a 12 year old boy that sounded like a 12 year old boy and it just didn't fit. Luckily in both instances I could just switch over and watch it subbed and not worry about it anymore.
So really guys, dubs today are just fine, if you find something you don't like in one, well switch over and don't worry about it. Remember, at one time we all watched and enjoyed dubs, few people get into this fandom starting with subtitles.
But if you don't understand the Japanese acting, what do you have to compare it to?