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[Company of Heroes 2] Warfare on the Western/Eastern Front

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Posts

  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2013
    Well alright, I'll indulge you. expand the quote to see my replies.

    Argh! For the 5th time or whatever people have said "no these issues don't exist" without even discussing them! I gave you a list of the issues. There are like 15 or whatever. Do you agree or disagree with the list?

    NOTHING makes me more qualified to speak than anyone else, so SPEAK. TELL ME. TALK. ABOUT. THE. GAME. PLEASE. I AM LITERALLY BEGGING YOU. DISCUSS THE GAME INSTEAD OF ME. THIS IS NOT THE TYCHOCELCHUUU THREAD. CAN WE PLEASE ADDRESS MY CONCERNS. I will quote them and if you need me to elaborate on any of them then please ask me to do so:
    1) UI is much worse than original CoH.
    Well ok, could use some improvement.
    2) Early game is almost entirely gone compared to original CoH.
    How so? There's loads going on in the early game. Trying to set up defenses before blizzards hit reducing your mobility, holding buildings, getting your base buildings up, etc.
    3) Map layout is simplified (fewer points, fewer cutoffs) compared to original CoH.
    That's not necessarily a bad thing. Cutoffs? Like chokepoints? Like Lyon, the most turtletastic map ever? Because that's a good thing, not a bad thing. How many of the maps have you played so far? Simplified maps aren't necessarily a bad thing, there's still enough options to make a game interesting, but without having a bunch of useless points that let the AI run amok back capping.
    4) Resource system, upkeep system, and pop cap system is fucked up compared to original CoH.
    Uh, how so?
    5) Explosive damage vs. infantry is way higher but with less of a radius and less suppression power compared to original CoH.
    I'm not seeing this mattering too much in game thus far. Plus, what level are you? How many bonuses are you using that change these effects?
    6) General readability (who is shooting at who? Where is the sniper? Where is the AT gun firing? Is artillery coming in? Off-map or on-map? From where? Is my vehicle damaged? How so? Are my troops suppressed?) much worse than original CoH.
    Artillery from off map has nice little bomb icons to show you. The rest of those things...are the same as the first game? How are they different?
    7) Target tables removed and all infantry health standardized at the exact same level (vast departure from original CoH in terms of how fights play out).
    8) Vehicle health way down compared to original CoH.
    Well A: beta. B: ...so? Hitting a tank with a giant explosive rocket/shell really SHOULD fuck it up.
    9) Teching choices basically zero compared to original CoH.
    How so? You have a similar number of buildings to go for and even more options for commanders.
    10) Doctrines removed and replaced with uninteresting homogeneous largely theme-less commanders
    You unlock lots of commanders and they seem pretty different to me.
    11) Infantry squad vary much less compared to original CoH.
    How so? There's riflemen/conscripts, 3-4 squads of german infantry, different stuff if you get different commanders.
    12) Smaller unit variety than original CoH.
    See 11
    13) More symmetrical teams (especially with the newest patch which standardized vehicle health levels per tier across each team) compared to original CoH (vet the same across both teams for instance).
    Why is balancing both sides bad?
    14) Cover less important in infantry fights compared to original CoH.
    This has not been my experience at all. I've won multiple times against superior firepower by using cover in this. How is it less important? It's still crazy important.
    15) True sight changes flanking mechanic (especially in the early game) compared to original CoH.
    And that's bad because...?
    16) Infantry combat slowed down except for flamethrowers which own face compared to original CoH, and combined with large Soviet weapon crews = weird dynamic when it comes to getting in close to something like a mortar or AT gun and trying to decrew it.
    Flamethrowers in the original COH could single handedly win games. I know this because I used this hilarious strategy multiple times. So uh, what?

    So despite your insistence upon everyone refuting your points, you haven't actually explained a lot of the points in that list. You've just said "this is broken" not why.

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  • MasumeMasume Creator Caprica, FloridaRegistered User regular
    People must be really bored to keep this argument going.

    I've been a huge fan of Relic myself, although DOW2 grew boring for me pretty quickly I had high hopes this would be the return to form and I could relive my COH days.

    Yeah, don't think this game is gonna do it. It doesn't feel right at all compared to the first one and if anything it seems like a slimmed down, stripped version of the first. I was ready to pre-purchase this baby and after playing the beta I pretty much decided not to get it for a good long while. They need to fix a lot of shit and work the Russian faction out a little better, then add in two more factions. Only TWO factions on release is criminal to me, considering what's coming out of the gate these days.

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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    2) Early game is almost entirely gone compared to original CoH.
    "How so? There's loads going on in the early game. Trying to set up defenses before blizzards hit reducing your mobility, holding buildings, getting your base buildings up, etc."
    Nobody sets up defenses in a serious game of Company of Heroes except for wire right now and maybe positioning an MG. Wire takes 5 seconds and positioning an MG takes like 10. What I'm talking about when I say early game is the time before vehicles show up on the field, basically. In Company of Heroes it consisted of Volks + MGs vs Riflemen, with Engineers and Pios running around, sometimes with flames. It was focused on positioning and could play out a number of ways: one player might rush and camp a cutoff, or rush the high fuel, or go for early flamers, or play an extended tier 1 by going for infantry vet or piospamming (Wehrmacht) or Rifle upgrades and even Supply Yard upgrades (Americans). Or the Americans might buy a jeep. This part of the game is focused on infantry maneuvering, infantry flanking, reading your opponent's teching, potentially forcing teching choices, or capitalizing on teching choices or doctrine choices you've made. This phase of the game is almost entirely gone in CoH 2. You get a few commander choices that resonate if you can get some early CPs but usually by then vehicles are out anyways because pretty much the only significant thing for either side to spend fuel on is teching to vehicles. Soviets can dump 25 fuel into molotovs if they are dumb.

    3) Map Layout is simplified (fewer points, fewer cutoffs) compared to original CoH.
    "That's not necessarily a bad thing. Cutoffs? Like chokepoints? Like Lyon, the most turtletastic map ever? Because that's a good thing, not a bad thing. How many of the maps have you played so far? Simplified maps aren't necessarily a bad thing, there's still enough options to make a game interesting, but without having a bunch of useless points that let the AI run amok back capping."
    A cutoff is not a choke point. A cutoff is a strategic point on the map you can capture to cut off the enemy's territory. It blocks their resource income. This is CoH strategy 101 and it's one of the most interesting things about CoH and it's mostly gone in CoH 2 because manpower income is fixed, you can OP the strat point nearest your base with a fuel or muni OP and get more guaranteed income, and you get fuel and munis from every strat point. I could write an entire essay on why the simplified maps are worse but Relic did it for me when they said they didn't want to punish players for being bad at the game. That's basically saying "we want playing the game to matter less - whether you are good or bad we want the experience to be more of the same." There were no "useless" points in CoH maps and I don't know what you're talking about when you say "let the AI run amok back capping" but everything I'm saying here is about multiplayer, not vs. the AI, because vs. the AI is not really the realm of actual discussion about RTS games...

    4) Resource system, upkeep system, and pop cap system is fucked up compared to original CoH.
    "Uh, how so?"
    Resource system: instead of getting fuel and munis from fuel and muni points you get them from every damn thing, lessening the importance of fighting over specific areas of the map and lessening the on-field impact of a choice to go for a specific strategy (high fuel, high munis, high mp, etc). Manpower is fixed income instead of tied to points. Upkeep is based on pop cap: 0-25 pop cap = free upkeep, 26-75 = 4 upkeep per pop cap, 76-100 = free upkeep. This is a terrible system because the incentive is to stay just at the weird line below 26. It penalizes unit preservation horrifically.

    5) Explosive damage vs. infantry is way higher but with less of a radius and less suppression power compared to original CoH.
    "I'm not seeing this mattering too much in game thus far. Plus, what level are you? How many bonuses are you using that change these effects?"
    What?! If you are not seeing this in the game you're not playing the same game as me. I'm not using any special powers or anything that effect explosive damage. I'm like level 11 or something tiny.

    6) General readability (who is shooting at who? Where is the sniper? Where is the AT gun firing? Is artillery coming in? Off-map or on-map? From where? Is my vehicle damaged? How so? Are my troops suppressed?) much worse than original CoH.
    "Artillery from off map has nice little bomb icons to show you. The rest of those things...are the same as the first game? How are they different?"
    If you honestly see no difference in this stuff between this game and the first CoH, if you disagree with everything in this thread and this thread and this thread congratulations, you have preternatural vision skills far in excess of my own. But this is still an issue for me and for many other players. It is way different than the first game and if you think it isn't then take another look at snipers, AT guns, machineguns, and so on. You will notice it. It is very obvious.

    7) Target tables removed and all infantry health standardized at the exact same level (vast departure from original CoH in terms of how fights play out).
    You didn't respond to this one.

    8) Vehicle health way down compared to original CoH.
    "Well A: beta. B: ...so? Hitting a tank with a giant explosive rocket/shell really SHOULD fuck it up."
    I talked about why this changes things quite a bit somewhere else in this thread. Suffice to say that if you want a game where shells fuck up tanks, play Men of War. Explosives, though, should not fuck up tanks - they don't penetrate tank armor. In real life. But we're talking about CoH 2 here and I don't give a fuck what happens in real life, I'm talking about what is fun, and in CoH it was more fun to have resilient tanks rather than tanks that behave like they're straight out of Men of War or Red Alert.

    9) Teching choices basically zero compared to original CoH.
    "How so? You have a similar number of buildings to go for and even more options for commanders."
    Your response is entirely incorrect here. Like, completely off base. Commanders don't really even count because they all share the same small group of units, really, and that doesn't even bring us close to the teching choices CoH had. No vet upgrades, no supply yard upgrades, no alternate paths for things like AT guns...

    10) Doctrines removed and replaced with uninteresting homogeneous largely theme-less commanders
    "You unlock lots of commanders and they seem pretty different to me."
    I'm glad you're fascinated by the commanders in there but a lot of them are pretty worthless and none of them provide anywhere near the sort of variation that you get from picking, say, Terror vs. Blitz in CoH.

    11) Infantry squad vary much less compared to original CoH.
    "How so? There's riflemen/conscripts, 3-4 squads of german infantry, different stuff if you get different commanders."
    I mean they vary in their roles and abilities, not that there are fewer kinds of squads. In CoH squad sizes ranged from 2 (pios) to 6 (riflemen). In CoH 2 squad sizes range from 4 (pios) to 6 (conscripts). And there aren't any 3 man squads. Infantry don't have different levels of health. Russians lose a squad when they pick most of their doctrines.

    13) More symmetrical teams (especially with the newest patch which standardized vehicle health levels per tier across each team) compared to original CoH (vet the same across both teams for instance).
    "Why is balancing both sides bad?"
    Balance can be achieved with asymmetrical sides. Losing asymmetry is bad because it is a big part of what made the original game a lot of fun.

    14) Cover less important in infantry fights compared to original CoH.
    "This has not been my experience at all. I've won multiple times against superior firepower by using cover in this. How is it less important? It's still crazy important."
    The damage reduction is less significant and infantry weapon damage has been slowed down generally such that flamethrowers and explosives will typically trump whatever silly fighting you're otherwise doing, in cover or not.

    15) True sight changes flanking mechanic (especially in the early game) compared to original CoH.
    "And that's bad because...?"
    Because that was one of the most enjoyable and unique parts of the entire game and it's gone now?

    16) Infantry combat slowed down except for flamethrowers which own face compared to original CoH, and combined with large Soviet weapon crews = weird dynamic when it comes to getting in close to something like a mortar or AT gun and trying to decrew it.
    "Flamethrowers in the original COH could single handedly win games. I know this because I used this hilarious strategy multiple times. So uh, what?"
    Look, if you used flamethrowers enough in CoH and you were awake when you were doing it, you must have realized that they behaved much differently than the flamethrowers in CoH 2 do. If you weren't paying attention then just trust me. Flamethrowers in CoH 2 are way deadlier. But what I'm really talking about here is that you can run a grenadier squad up to an AT gun and it will take forever to decrew it.

    TychoCelchuuu on
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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Wow. Well rather than continue to muck up the thread, just going to say I still disagree with a lot of those assertions. I still think it's a fun game that, like the original, will continue to get better as time goes on. A lot of the things you said up there are things I'm just plain not seeing, or are personal opinion. I still think it's quite a fun game from what I've played, and will continue to play it. Hopefully they can fix some of that up for you.

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  • DarkMechaDarkMecha NCRegistered User regular
    I'm forced to agree with Tycho's assessments. While I'm not possessed of a super deep understanding of CoH1's under-the-hood stuff (like what are target tables? I know diff infantry have diff armor types in CoH1 but that's all), I do know a decent bit of how to actually play CoH1. CoH2 mostly feels like CoH1 from that perspective, but alot of little things don't add up right. The tracer thing is kinda meh to me, but I dislike how vehicle combat is and that's a big deal to me. Tanks are too fragile and not nearly as fun to control for some reason. I miss my Puma already. Garrisoning in buildings seems kinda weak. Boy flamethrowers are powerful. Why does my armor always get a damaged engine right away? Where are my tank traps? Why must mines be laid in a square 2x2 pattern?

    My main issue with CoH2 is that while it feels good on the surface, it seems to me there is a lack of variety which leads to a lack of depth overall. Less tech choices, less early game choices, zero choice within a commander - just linear unlocking. I think the maps are ok, but some really need more cover and paths of attack IMO. The lack of fuel / muni point removes a strategic choice entirely (go for VP weighted side of map, or go for high fuel), which sucks. I have other issues but Tycho and others have already outlined them better than I could.

    I don't really have much to add beyond that, as I haven't gotten really in depth with CoH2. Mostly due to lack of time, but also I've just kind of gotten to the point that I now feel either the game will somehow end up being fun enough to keep playing or it won't and I'll go back to CoH1. CoH2 is currently still alot of fun to me, but I can't really define exactly why. Time will tell if it remains so. :/

    (Also I want my Puma back.)

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  • Vic_HazardVic_Hazard Registered User regular
    The anti personel mines don't actually come out where you click them, you create a field of mines between those 4 points for the munitions. Mines are pretty strong actually, you just can't throw one out as fast as you could CoH. But as far as killing power goes there isn't much left of a squad if it's right clicked through a field.

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Wow. Well rather than continue to muck up the thread, just going to say I still disagree with a lot of those assertions. I still think it's a fun game that, like the original, will continue to get better as time goes on. A lot of the things you said up there are things I'm just plain not seeing, or are personal opinion. I still think it's quite a fun game from what I've played, and will continue to play it. Hopefully they can fix some of that up for you.
    Not to sound like a jerk, but if you don't know what a cutoff is, then your personal opinions about Company of Heroes don't have much applicability outside your own experience.

    Prisca
  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Except I do know what those are, just didn't realize that's what you were referring to. Plus they do still exist. I usually refer to them as supply chains or something. But I'm clearly not as good as you so my opinions must be wrong.

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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    I didn't say your opinions are wrong, I said they were of limited applicability. Since you do know what cutoffs are I would revise that and say that they are probably applicable to people who are generally at around your level of play, which is kind of low if you think any Company of Heroes maps had useless capture points (they so totally didn't!). You note that you're "not seeing" a lot of the things I've mentioned in my post - I think that's just because you don't really understand the game. If you want to post some replays or shoutcasts where the things I say occur don't actually occur then we can have an actual discussion but right now my experience when talking about CoH 2 is that either people agree with me or they disagree with me but they're never willing to step up and provide any analysis or evidence for their position because they just get tired of talking about the game at a deep level, as if their ignorance or refusal to go deeper makes them more right than I am.

    TychoCelchuuu on
  • VeritasVRVeritasVR Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    TC is doing a much better job than I would be doing at explaining this

    VeritasVR on
    CoH_infantry.jpg
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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    Also I notice that I only answered the "how are resources and upkeep fucked up" question without answering the "how is pop cap fucked up" question. The answer to that is that pop cap is now at 100 for every player forever, whereas in Company of Heroes it depended on how many territories you controlled. In practice this never mattered unless you got deeply cut off in the mid game, which would temporarily delay building something, or in the end game, when it could become crucially important to cut off the WM to keep the KT from coming out or to otherwise keep call-in units from appearing by making sure your opponent was cut off. This was an interesting dynamic. It's gone in CoH 2. Why? I have literally no idea.

  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    So hows the soundtrack to this (assuming it's present)? I seem to recall Opposing Front had a pretty epic sountrack going.



  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
  • VeritasVRVeritasVR Registered User regular
    The British themes in CoH were so British.

    so British

    CoH_infantry.jpg
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  • DarkMechaDarkMecha NCRegistered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Oh man, I totally forgot about the max pop / territories mechanic. Probably because honestly in most games it doesn't really matter - but it could at the end like you said. I wonder why they changed that...

    Also Sunday Night Fights streaming CoH2 now - http://www.twitch.tv/sundaynightfights
    Oh cool Sepha is playing in this!
    You know watching a cast of this vs playing, I think one of Relic's goals is to try and make CoH more "esports friendly". With the increased lethality and faster pace in general. I can't really see that working though...SC2 is the only rts the esports community seems to care about.

    DarkMecha on
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  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    DarkMecha wrote: »
    Oh man, I totally forgot about the max pop / territories mechanic. Probably because honestly in most games it doesn't really matter - but it could at the end like you said. I wonder why they changed that...

    Also Sunday Night Fights streaming CoH2 now - http://www.twitch.tv/sundaynightfights
    Oh cool Sepha is playing in this!
    You know watching a cast of this vs playing, I think one of Relic's goals is to try and make CoH more "esports friendly". With the increased lethality and faster pace in general. I can't really see that working though...SC2 is the only rts the esports community seems to care about.

    I see what you guys meant about readability of fire.

    Sound design still sounds really good though. Also, I hate the people in the chat channel. Really hate them. They are daft fanboys, the type that complain about everything as being bad with no actual introspection or insight, but just because they want to jump on the angry bandwagon.

    EDIT: CRIKEY you guys weren't kidding about the fast teching.

    subedii on
  • DarkMechaDarkMecha NCRegistered User regular
    Yeah, I can definitely see some of CoH2's issues coming out more in this higher level play. At the same time watching this and when playing, I'm just having too much fun to care.

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  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Is it just me or this a fairly small map they're showing? And the game in general just seems as if it plays out faster. Tanks / units move faster, die faster etc. Just my perception from this stream anyway. In general the game itself just looks faster.

    Not sure how I feel about that. Because if I'm honest, one of the reasons I didn't get into CoH was simply that it took so long to play games.


    EDIT: And I agree with the casters on one thing, I think it's too early to tell what kind of long-term meta games are going to be cropping up just yet.

    EDIT 2: Three TIGERS on the field already? Yeah that's a weird thing to see.

    subedii on
  • DarkMechaDarkMecha NCRegistered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Man I agree with subedii, I hate the ppl in the stream chat. Ugh.

    Edit - One thing i flat do not like at all, period, is the mixed team / mirror match options. I know some ppl wanted that in CoH1, but it's just -weird- to me.

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  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    On mirror matches, that's a bit strange to see (they're not in official matchmaking apparently). Although I also agree with the casters in that it may be worth seeing how that plays out.

    I also appreciate that the casters are actually trying to talk up the positive aspects of the game and that Relic are supposed to be listening to player feedback with regards to things like map layouts.

    EDIT: Man the game looks freaking good though.

    subedii on
  • DarkMechaDarkMecha NCRegistered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Yeah I think mirror matches are going to be required for competitive play to really take off, and I would love that. I could put up with mirror match weridness for that. However I just don't ever see CoH2 being a big competitive scene / esports kind of game. The esports types really really hate random elements in their games, and CoH is full of them. It's alot of what makes it so fun and interesting.

    DarkMecha on
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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    Poker is one of the most competitive games in the world and nobody gets mad when they shuffle the deck.

  • Vic_HazardVic_Hazard Registered User regular
    Big difference between random and chance. Too much (like sniper accuracy in CoH) and skill goes out the window. Some chance here and there can actually make things more strategical. CoH is a game about flexibility and tactics.

    Tbh it really shouldn't be about who can push out the other guys out of cover with a jeep better or screw up retreat AI pathfinding. Starcraft will be a thousand times more rewarding at minute micro like that because it's actually reactive and consistent.

    Geth
  • Corp.ShephardCorp.Shephard Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    I mean I just had an engagement where my SU-85 lost to a StuG in the first three shots, and a previous engagement my SU-85 inched out a victory based on effectively luck. That was a good way to sour an already poor game.

    E-sports are sort of anti-randomness, but take a look at DotA2. That game is filled with countless randomized critical strikes, bash effects, randomized stun chances, randomized power-up locations...

    There's a difference in scale for sure but a battle can be turned with luck if the right heroes are in play just as they can be in CoH.

    League of Legends has swept the opposite direction but both games are very much alive competitively.

    Corp.Shephard on
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    I'm not sure what jeep cover pushing and retreat AI pathfinding has to do with the conversation about randomness, but if you liked the low APM aspects of CoH and the focus on tactics over clicking, you'll be unhappy to learn that the cold mechanic is pretty much just an APM tax - it requires you to periodically micro people next to fires or at least into cover to keep them from freezing. This is why I was very confused when they first announced it - it seems sort of antithetical to the Company of Heroes "you don't need to click fast to play this game" sort of ethos.

    OpposingFarce
  • Vic_HazardVic_Hazard Registered User regular
    The SU seems to suck though? I haven't used it many times and for good reason. They're t4 and expensive, yet they pull short from stugs, even if I shoot first. Soviet has big AT problems from my point of view.

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    As Soviets my main AT is Conscript AT grenades, T-34 ram, T-34 spam, AT guns, and mines. AT guns do the damage, AT nades + mines keep the tanks from getting away, T-34 ram keeps the tanks from hurting me, and T-34 spam never hurt anybody. The big trick is making sure the Ostheer don't get enough armor to make any of this unfeasible.

  • Vic_HazardVic_Hazard Registered User regular
    Yeah I always have to strongarm, send in way more than he does and obliterate some cans, try and hold the advantage.

    I'm not into the 1v1 scene as much as I was in CoH though seeing as it's in the beta and we're mostly just screwing around. T-34s and AT guns work a lot better in 1v1s I take it because t34s explode as soon as a panzer grenadier blob looks at it and AT guns don't like a lot of artillery. My mates at guns usually picks a lot of kills though I'll give you that...

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    I haven't bothered with 2v2s and up because 1) I don't enjoy them as much without friends I feel like playing with and 2) from what I hear they're just a shitstorm right now, like, even worse than the original Company of Heroes. From the few 2v2 shoutcasts I've seen that's the impression I've gotten and from what I've heard about today's Sunday Night Fight, that's how it is. Oh well!

  • Corp.ShephardCorp.Shephard Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Fire pits being so terrible really makes it so annoying for microing during blizzards too.

    The SU-85 has historically been a very reliable source of AT for me. Soviets have a fair number of immobilizing or slowing attacks between AT grenades, mines and buttoning. The SU-85 can punish a number of tanks with it's range and damage. In 3v3s and 4v4s I find that the T-34 is far less viable because when tanks from multiple players bunch up you can stuggle to incapacitate enough of them with a T-34 force.

    A combination of the two is very ideal. In that replay pack there's a game where I ram three T-34s against two Tigers and a Panther and we bring up three SU-85s to beat down the now vulnerable tanks. The T-34 really needs a sustained AT source for it's ram to be very effective.

    Seeing that StuG III beat my SU-85 without me landing a single hit though was very demoralizing. The possibility of that happening when the SU-85 is higher tech, more expensive and worse against infantry...

    Well, it's baffling.

    In 1v1s I completely agree. T-34s are excellent when you can best control and predict your opponent's tank production. They excel in controlled enviroments where their ramming allows you to simply cross off threats while you close in for the kill. In general, I find the tier 4 building for Russians rather weak. The SU-76 seems like a fairly terrible vehicle with it's low armor, poor accuracy versus infantry and expensive artillery barrage that is toothless and slow unless massed (and then you're sort of digging yourself deeper investing in a fairly bad unit). The Rocket Artillery Truck is expensive and useless against armor when you need to be investing in AT solutions. The only unit I respect is the SU-85 and that confidence has been dwindling slowly ever since the cost nerf.

    Corp.Shephard on
  • Vic_HazardVic_Hazard Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Okay, I'm finally convinced, the last german commander is supremely overpowered. I don't see much that will stop double cached near-base points, mortars into flammenwerfer with a scout car, into panzergrenadiers and tanks. A flammenwerfer literally requires 2-3 units to even stop it unless the player get really really outplayed (buttoned in front of an AT gun, which is unfeasible because then soviets would have to go t1-t2 early).

    Soviet can basically rush with flamercars and conscripts, but if they let germany even hold 3 points for any amount of time they'll win. In team games this is pretty unfeasible for soviets. Anything you build will get mauled by whatever the german builds next. To top it off the german commander who gets double cache points (opels) also gets tigers AND strafing run, countering most of your infantry by using some munitions and getting the strongest armor in the game.


    So far I'd only face players who were vastly worse than me, as soon as I found someone who could play I hit a total brick wall with this. Anything you build will get hard countered really fast, they have the resource advantage, lategame advantage, deathstar unit advantage, AI advantage, AT advantage, veterancy advantage (soviets need their vehicles to get to 3 stars before they become beasts, germany 2). None of your units scale forward while being worse than his when they come out. Germany even get the scout car which counters your cars and halftracks. Scout car + flammenwerfer (while munition heavy, they can just wait out 100 points though and opel that shit right up) will kill guards, infantry, halftracks, snipers and scout cars with huge potential for massive damage dealt in a small amount of time. Your shot is basically setting a perfect trap and hopes he springs it perfectly on that particular part of the map.

    I'd even take german artillery over soviet any day. That said the game is still fun when it's not lagging to pieces. Needing to go t1-t2, pick a doctrine and make guard-AT traps which he has to initiate to even stop his light vehicles is ridiculous though. Raining at grenades with at guns might work, but it's 50-50 at best and you'll take massive casualties while prolonging the game for his lategame. As soon as the airplanes are up those conscripts won't do anything to vehicles.


    Edit: Snipers are still amazing though, but I'm too bad to use them. Also everything he's rushing will counter them.

    Vic_Hazard on
    Corp.Shephard
  • MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    I played this game a fair bit over the weekend with Woggle, Corp.Shephard and Sepah. It's obvious that there are balance problems, but still, it's still really fun.

    I especially love the blizzard/snow/cold/ice mechanics, to a point where springtime maps feel boring.

    Regarding cutoffs/backcapping -- in the only 4v4 map that's in rotation, there are some pretty neat opportunities for backcapping. The map has a huge, open front line, and there are lots of holes for single man squads to fit through and cap some back points.

  • MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    Vic_Hazard wrote: »
    Okay, I'm finally convinced, the last german commander is supremely overpowered. I don't see much that will stop double cached near-base points, mortars into flammenwerfer with a scout car, into panzergrenadiers and tanks. A flammenwerfer literally requires 2-3 units to even stop it unless the player get really really outplayed (buttoned in front of an AT gun, which is unfeasible because then soviets would have to go t1-t2 early).

    Soviet can basically rush with flamercars and conscripts, but if they let germany even hold 3 points for any amount of time they'll win. In team games this is pretty unfeasible for soviets. Anything you build will get mauled by whatever the german builds next. To top it off the german commander who gets double cache points (opels) also gets tigers AND strafing run, countering most of your infantry by using some munitions and getting the strongest armor in the game.


    So far I'd only face players who were vastly worse than me, as soon as I found someone who could play I hit a total brick wall with this. Anything you build will get hard countered really fast, they have the resource advantage, lategame advantage, deathstar unit advantage, AI advantage, AT advantage, veterancy advantage (soviets need their vehicles to get to 3 stars before they become beasts, germany 2). None of your units scale forward while being worse than his when they come out. Germany even get the scout car which counters your cars and halftracks. Scout car + flammenwerfer (while munition heavy, they can just wait out 100 points though and opel that shit right up) will kill guards, infantry, halftracks, snipers and scout cars with huge potential for massive damage dealt in a small amount of time. Your shot is basically setting a perfect trap and hopes he springs it perfectly on that particular part of the map.

    I'd even take german artillery over soviet any day. That said the game is still fun when it's not lagging to pieces. Needing to go t1-t2, pick a doctrine and make guard-AT traps which he has to initiate to even stop his light vehicles is ridiculous though. Raining at grenades with at guns might work, but it's 50-50 at best and you'll take massive casualties while prolonging the game for his lategame. As soon as the airplanes are up those conscripts won't do anything to vehicles.


    Edit: Snipers are still amazing though, but I'm too bad to use them. Also everything he's rushing will counter them.

    Germans do seem quite overpowered, throughout the entire game.

    A historical note: In the real war, the Germans were "overpowered," so to speak, at the beginning. Their armor just completely and totally obliterated the Russians. I mean, just look at this picture:

    783px-Eastern_Front_1941-06_to_1941-12.png

    Holy shit. Just for some comparison, that's around the same size as the entire eastern third of the United States, captured in six months.

    And they pretty much held that territory for two and a half years, until the Russians managed to push them back:

    782px-Eastern_Front_1943-08_to_1944-12.png

    It could have been interesting if Relic had drawn inspiration from history. Perhaps, in each game, the Germans could be been given a distinct advantage at the beginning. Perhaps they'd have access to the Panzer 4 in Teir 1, a unit which was a staple of the German Blitzkrieg. And the Russians' job would be to essentially not die: Back-cap, disrupt reinforcements, take potshots at tanks, lay mines, whatever they can. Because if the Russians can hold long enough, they have a very powerful end game. Perhaps in Teir 4, Russians can access to a hilariously cheap T-34 and tons of conscripts. They could just flood the battle, zerg-style, with overwhelming numbers of units.

  • Corp.ShephardCorp.Shephard Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    It would have been nice to flip the ol' "Germans win late game" from CoH1 with Russians.

    I totally agree with you Vic. Flamethrower Halftracks are just gross. You need so much to come together to stop it and is a very cheap unit all things considered. The munitions cost can be somewhat prohibitive but munition incomes in this game seem inflated from the previous. I am rarely struggling for that resource unless I have already lost.

    Last night I tooled around in a 4v4 game where the game is probably least balanced. I built a dozen scout cars. It was probably slightly less awful than you would expect but the lowish upkeep and tiny manpower cost of the scout car allowed me to spam Opel Blitzs behind them. The game was close for a while, we got knocked down to 50 vps, but german armor late game is just so silly. When you've got that sort of Opel Blitz it's just dumb.
    Melkster wrote: »
    Regarding cutoffs/backcapping -- in the only 4v4 map that's in rotation, there are some pretty neat opportunities for backcapping. The map has a huge, open front line, and there are lots of holes for single man squads to fit through and cap some back points.

    I would like to see that even easier. Team maps need very potent cutoff opportunities. Map sizes don't increase too much between 1v1->2v2->3v3, etc. When you've got four enemy players on these map sizes slipping through the enemy lines to back-cap and cutoff points becomes incredibly difficult. There are simply more enemy forces to catch you. On that Spring 4v4 map you need to capture ~2-3 points very distant from each other to cut off enemy resources in most scenarios. Often these points are close to their base. In the case of the bottom area you have to move through the same river, perhaps twice, to get to the cutoffs whereas he needs only stretch himself from his base sector to stop you.

    You're right that TrueSight makes it a bit easier to sneak through the forests in the south. It's not really enough though.

    Montherme was an interesting exploration of supply lines in team games:
    Montherme.jpg

    For the top two players a cutoff was only one point away: that strategic point on the road. It's very difficult to hold but it cuts off the entire map. This is a nice risk-reward balance. I only need to hit one point. The enemy is very close to reinforcing it and can come at me from three different directions yet every minute I hold it completely cripples their economy. If I can't attack their fortified positions early on, I only need to slip by with a force and cut them off until the enemy is forced to break their formation. Even this cutoff can be countered if the middle long munitions and the bottom player's mid munitions were held (establishing supply lines from the bottom player's base).

    Corp.Shephard on
  • MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    Haha, oh wow.

    So I'm just poking around Wikipedia, and discovered this interesting historical tidbit. It's about the production of the Russian T-34 tank, which ramped up dramatically during/following the Blitz in 1941:
    After Germany's surprise invasion of the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941 (Operation Barbarossa), the Wehrmacht's rapid advances forced the evacuation of tank factories to the Ural Mountains, an undertaking of unprecedented scale and haste. KhPZ (Kharkiv Locomotive Factory) re-established itself around the Dzherzhinski Ural Railcar Factory in Nizhny Tagil, renamed Stalin Ural Tank Factory No. 183. The Kirovsky Factory, evacuated just weeks before the Germans surrounded Leningrad, moved with the Kharkiv Diesel Factory to the Stalin Tractor Factory in Chelyabinsk, soon to be nicknamed Tankograd ("Tank City"). Voroshilov Tank Factory No. 174 from Leningrad was incorporated into the Ural Factory and the new Omsk Factory No. 174. The Ordzhonikidze Ural Heavy Machine Tool Works (UZTM) in Sverdlovsk absorbed several small factories. While these factories were being moved at record speed, the industrial complex surrounding the Stalingrad Tractor Factory produced forty percent of all T-34s. As the factory became surrounded by heavy fighting in the Battle of Stalingrad in 1942, the situation there grew desperate: manufacturing innovations were necessitated by material shortages, and stories persist that unpainted T-34 tanks were driven out of the factory directly to the battlefields around it. Stalingrad kept up production until September 1942.

    TLDR: Stalingrad had a huge tank factory and was able to continue building tanks while the Germans assaulted the city.

    That's insane.

  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Fartin' Johnny Treason At your serviceRegistered User regular
    I haven't played this game yet, but historical qualification: Soviet tanks were actually largely superior to German ones in Operation Barbarossa

    The T-34's gun and sloped armor outclassed any Pz 3 or 4 to the point the Wehrmacht nearly decided to just build a direct copy. The KV 1 was literally impenetrable except directly from the rear. The German gains depicted above were won with vastly superior doctrines and air power, not superior tanks.

    uioF4Kd.png
  • MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    I haven't played this game yet, but historical qualification: Soviet tanks were actually largely superior to German ones in Operation Barbarossa

    The T-34's gun and sloped armor outclassed any Pz 3 or 4 to the point the Wehrmacht nearly decided to just build a direct copy. The KV 1 was literally impenetrable except directly from the rear. The German gains depicted above were won with vastly superior doctrines and air power, not superior tanks.

    They didn't have that many of them, though, right? Not at the start.

    From Wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa
    The German Wehrmacht had about 5,200 tanks overall, of which 3,350 were committed to the invasion. This yields a balance of immediately available tanks of about 4:1 in the Red Army's favor. However,the most advanced Soviet tank models, the T-34 and KV-1, were not available in large numbers early in the war, and only accounted for 7.2% of the total Soviet tank force.

  • MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    It would have been nice to flip the ol' "Germans win late game" from CoH1 with Russians.

    I totally agree with you Vic. Flamethrower Halftracks are just gross. You need so much to come together to stop it and is a very cheap unit all things considered. The munitions cost can be somewhat prohibitive but munition incomes in this game seem inflated from the previous. I am rarely struggling for that resource unless I have already lost.

    Last night I tooled around in a 4v4 game where the game is probably least balanced. I built a dozen scout cars. It was probably slightly less awful than you would expect but the lowish upkeep and tiny manpower cost of the scout car allowed me to spam Opel Blitzs behind them. The game was close for a while, we got knocked down to 50 vps, but german armor late game is just so silly. When you've got that sort of Opel Blitz it's just dumb.
    Melkster wrote: »
    Regarding cutoffs/backcapping -- in the only 4v4 map that's in rotation, there are some pretty neat opportunities for backcapping. The map has a huge, open front line, and there are lots of holes for single man squads to fit through and cap some back points.

    I would like to see that even easier. Team maps need very potent cutoff opportunities. Map sizes don't increase too much between 1v1->2v2->3v3, etc. When you've got four enemy players on these map sizes slipping through the enemy lines to back-cap and cutoff points becomes incredibly difficult. There are simply more enemy forces to catch you. On that Spring 4v4 map you need to capture ~2-3 points very distant from each other to cut off enemy resources in most scenarios. Often these points are close to their base. In the case of the bottom area you have to move through the same river, perhaps twice, to get to the cutoffs whereas he needs only stretch himself from his base sector to stop you.

    You're right that TrueSight makes it a bit easier to sneak through the forests in the south. It's not really enough though.

    Montherme was an interesting exploration of supply lines in team games:
    Montherme.jpg

    For the top two players a cutoff was only one point away: that strategic point on the road. It's very difficult to hold but it cuts off the entire map. This is a nice risk-reward balance. I only need to hit one point. The enemy is very close to reinforcing it and can come at me from three different directions yet every minute I hold it completely cripples their economy. If I can't attack their fortified positions early on, I only need to slip by with a force and cut them off until the enemy is forced to break their formation. Even this cutoff can be countered if the middle long munitions and the bottom player's mid munitions were held (establishing supply lines from the bottom player's base).

    I'm just curious -- but I don't suppose you could post the map from the 4v4 map we played last night? I think a comparison could be interesting.

    Melkster on
  • Corp.ShephardCorp.Shephard Registered User regular
    17fscp.jpg

    Steppes is rough for cutting off. You either have to charge the middle hill from one of the sides or try to backcap in the negative cover river/next to their base... I have achieved cutting off the southern fuel but never for very long and it's natural island defenses make it hard to shake defenders out of it if they use the river.

    The top is difficult to do good cutoffs for because of the hedgerows and you're probably only cutting off one munitions point anyways.

  • Vic_HazardVic_Hazard Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    It's kind of funny, a flammenwerfer drove in front of my AT-gun today, and I had a conscript squad there. So I ordered the at grenade and I totally got the kill. The flammenwerfer still killed the entire full health conscript squad before they even got the grenade off. The thing is way more dangerous than any ostwind.

    Vic_Hazard on
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