The holiday hangout will go online tomorrow! If there's anything in the regular subforums that you're going to want to access over the holidays, copy it now while it's still accessible.
Don't like the snow? You can make a bookmark with the following text instead of a url: javascript:snowStorm.toggleSnow(). Clicking it will toggle the snow on and off.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[Dota 2] TI3. Look who's comin for dinner!

1353638404199

Posts

  • SparvySparvy Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Game 2 between NaVi and Alliance in the upper bracket finals at TI3 is the most clearcut 'item timing game' I can remember off the top of my head. NaVi had a complete all in lineup on early game push and teamfight (enchantress, furion, luna and tide). They started 5-maning at 10 minutes just taking towers. Alliance surrendered their towers almost for free and just avoided all fights for 15 minutes until they had bkb on alchemist and some other core items (radiance on bear was around the same time) at which point they just straight up won.

    Sparvy on
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    They aren't effective enough, especially early on.

    There are plenty of known timing windows and break point items, but it's not like Starcraft where a timing push is supposed to end the game. Even if you could get this crazy-amazing level 11 aghs ult there are 2 things that would happen: either the other teams sees the aghs and just fucks off and doesn't team fight, or they don't see it, get wiped, and respawn in 20 seconds, so maybe you get a single tier 1 tower, at which point they know you have the aghs and simply fuck off and not give up another team fight, leaving your carry with a 4200 gold item that gives them no damage probably doesn't scale well.

    There actually are timing pushes like those in Starcraft, ones that are designed to just win the game, but they're rarer because it's often possible for the other team to see them coming and either ban a crucial hero (say it's an aura strat and they ban BM, which fucks the whole thing), or counterpick it. And a failed timing push in dota usually leaves the pushing team in a desperate position, underlevelled (habing 4 or 5 heroes taking the same xp), underfarmed (only getting the cs from 1 lane), and down by towers if they other team had good split pushing heroes. That kind of strat is often considered a cheese strat, used by a team that doesn't think they can win a normal game against their opponents, making them more like cheese plays in Starcraft.

    There are important item timings and scouting information in dota, though. A team with an important initiator will wait till they get their blink before they fight, then hide that blink until they're ready for the fight, and then only fight when it will allow them to take an objective, unless they're forced to use it by the other team being aggressive. Often a team will back off from fights and send their support to get some farm so they can get their 6 or 11 or force staff, and when a team has a hero that can rush mek they'll start grouping and pushing as soon as that's available, because having a mek advantage is usually more important than a carry or initiator having level 11 or whatever. And when a team falls behind they will often protect an important hero so they can get a big item that will let them take fights, like a sheepstick or big dps item on the carry.

    (Mostly) Competitive Gaming Blog Updated December 10th. "Second Chances" (Short Story)
    stream
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    Sparvy wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    It sounds like you're not talking about pro teams though and rather about just normal games.

    I'm kind of talking about both, but for the most part the general "competitive" scene (any group of players taking the game slightly more seriously than a pub, not necessarily pro).

    A lot of what you're saying about diagnosing the game early vs later makes perfect sense. Situations become considerably more complex when enemy items are built, or buybacks are present, or TPs are reliable, etc.

    Even so, I still think there's a lot of unexplored territory regarding specific skill builds that benefit ALL 5 team members and not just one or two in a vacuum. I bet many of these will be flushed out in the next few years. I also bet a lot of them will involve level 11 scepter builds.

    The only hero I can think of that does anything close to this is 1 position carry Tiny.

    I can think of several that are worth exploring:

    Carries or Semi-carries: Jugg, Luna, OD

    Initiators: Beastmaster, Brewmaster, QOP

    There are also several more crazy options that may be worth playing around with just because they counter certain lineups so well. These include: Zues, Warlock, Spiritbreaker, Silencer, Huskar, and Doom.

    Aghs on Luna would be terrible. There are so many items that are way more efficient. It's not great on OD, either, although it isn't horrible, but stuff like Scythe or Shiva's is a better pickup.

    QoP often gets it but as a 3rd or 4th pickup after she gets stuff like Scythe, which is a much bigger pickup for her. Beast and Brew aren't really played anymore but it was big for Brewmaster, and 3rd or 4th pickup for Beastmaster.

    It's pretty okay on Jugg, but again, you wouldn't want to go naked Aghs because you become just a walking R button.

    That's kind of the point of the strategy, though. It's the timing window you create by a MASSIVE singular increase in teamfight power. Like some of those ults become more than 2X effective in that moment.

    Pretty much all of this happening already, maybe you just don't see it? Not your aghs rushes maybe because they are incredibly risky or straight up bad on many heroes. Jugg, Chen, beastmaster, brewmaster etc are few that do them though. But tailoring your game plan around the timings of various items is like the foundation of any dota strategy.

    It's entirely possible I'm not seeing them. I watch a decent amount of pro-DOTA, but definitely not enough to be sure.

    It may also have to do with the drastic changes to the game that are still being implemented. Most of my posts have been focusing on Aghs and that items is constantly being overhauled. Hell, a few months ago several heroes who now have Aghs buffs didn't at all.

    I may be operating under the assumption that the game is going to stabilize and allow the meta some time to evolve beyond basic mek, blink, or bkb timings. It may not be happening as soon as I think, though.

    TiSBcast.com - Home of This is Serious Business, a weekly roundtable podcast involving media, beer, and general merriment.
    Twitters
  • milskimilski Registered User regular
    The idea of the game stabilizing to that significant a degree is kind of absurd; even League is more fluid than having specific timings for specific items, and it's stereotyped for having a stale overall meta. There are just too many combinations and too much randomness and too much communication required for something like that to stabilize in any reasonable timeframe.

    Steam ID: Milski
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    I think Dota tends to be governed by attrition.. A large gain is easy to achieve, but each subsequent gain gets more expensive and harder to get. Which is the reason big item pushes aren't so clear cut. Shadow blade is a good example. Usually upon finishing it you get a big play..maybe 2, and then the enemy team counters it. Its reliability goes way down. Same with BKB, except there the diminishing return is built right into the item. As Page pointed out, respawn plays into that as well. It's not like you can win a big fight at a tier 1 tower and then proceed to obliterate that whole lane and take the fountain. Some pro teams manage to maybe take out tier 1 and 2, and toy around with tier 3, but that's usually because the enemy team chooses not defend it.

    Dota in my opinion tends to be a grinding out affair with short bursts of high tension. That's changing though, as many pro teams now are so fluid in moving people around the map that some games practically play out as FPS team shooters would. Minus the chinese of course, they're still solidly stuck in the 4p1, win a fight and go farm some more mode.

    Dark_Side on
  • Corp.ShephardCorp.Shephard Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Presuming that a patch comes soon with balance changes after the International, which is not out the question, that's not going to happen methinks.

    There's just so much chaos in a game of DotA that truly makes each game unique. A blink can come earlier for your mid if he gets a great rune. A jungler can get something slower if his camps get blocked or he gets unfavorable spawns.

    I don't think the game will ever "stabilize" to the point where games evolve beyond those timings. Even swapping out two heroes will change the way that people itemize across the game. The thing with timings is that you have to hit them and you need to predict if you can hit them. Circumstances in a DotA are constantly shifting so that timing target is always moving.

    Corp.Shephard on
  • Aktn BstrdAktn Bstrd Registered User regular
    Anyone on that can invite me to the PA guild?

  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    There's a PA guild? Yeah invite PantsB also please

    11793-1.png
    Spoiler:
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    I am sad at the amount of Dota 2 representing there is at PAX this year :( I'm one of the only people I've seen repping with my Nature's Prophet shirt on. I have gotten stopped quite a few times with people commenting, but Dota 2 isn't even on the Free Play PC's...this saddens me.

    Purge is supposed to be here today though, so I'm gonna track him down for an autograph.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • 3clipse3clipse Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    I am sad at the amount of Dota 2 representing there is at PAX this year :( I'm one of the only people I've seen repping with my Nature's Prophet shirt on. I have gotten stopped quite a few times with people commenting, but Dota 2 isn't even on the Free Play PC's...this saddens me.

    Purge is supposed to be here today though, so I'm gonna track him down for an autograph.

    Maybe Valve didn't want to try to have a serious presence at PAX right after finishing TI3? I dunno.

    I know the PA folks are big LoL fans but...who knows.

    3clipse on
    C2hmw6F.png
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    Yeah, I was more annoyed it wasn't available in the free play area. I saw someone playing it at the Plantronics booth, but that's it. That seems to be where the Dota heads are congregating is Plantronics. That's where Purge said he'd be.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • MazzyxMazzyx A Restoration through Revolution. Registered User regular
    Riot always had a huge presence at PAX so maybe Valve just didn't want to get into a fight with them? Also LoL has its big tournaments going on right now as well and it is DotA2's downtime after TI3.

    But it is odd since Valve was actually in the same convention center for TI3.

    meijisig.png
  • Aktn BstrdAktn Bstrd Registered User regular
    I am on playing for like the first time in months and months, does anyone want to join up with me? I promise I will feed!

  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    If you've been holding your breath for the game to "stabilize" then you've been holding your breath for 8 or 9 years.

    Icefrog himself knows that there's no place in which dota stops. It's about evolution. You can't really have a game that never changes and expect it to keep going, and that's especially true in the free-to-play market.

    Brood War never quite reached a perfectly stable state because organizers were smart enough to realize that even if they couldn't update the game's balance or tweak numbers, they could keep changing the maps. Different maps meant different strategies, which meant different counter-strategies, and so on. Whenever it looked like a map had been solved, they just dropped it and added a new one. That's what kept Brood War alive, while a peer like Quake 3 slowly died because they're still playing most of the exact same maps they were playing 2 years after release. As comforting as it may be to see a ztn or pro-dm6 now and again, everyone saw that shit being played out 7 years ago. If someone had the foresight to take things over and do what kespa did then I actually think Quake Live would still be a bigger draw. There was cpma, which at least brought in new maps, but it was never going to be the same, or as big.

    The dota map doesn't change that much, so the heroes change instead. That's what keeps people coming back to the competitive game. You can be sure that the hero pools will be shaken up regularly enough to keep things interesting, and Icefrog is usually patient enough to let people work things out themselves.

    (Mostly) Competitive Gaming Blog Updated December 10th. "Second Chances" (Short Story)
    stream
    qwer12
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    I do like that aspect of Icefrog's stewardship. He'll let crazy shit go on and the leave the players to deal with it. Riot loves the patch; I don't think they'd ever allow a hero like warlock and the 4 bullshit golems build to exist in LoL.

  • ProspicienceProspicience The Raven King DenvemoloradoRegistered User regular
    Page- wrote: »
    If you've been holding your breath for the game to "stabilize" then you've been holding your breath for 8 or 9 years.

    Icefrog himself knows that there's no place in which dota stops. It's about evolution. You can't really have a game that never changes and expect it to keep going, and that's especially true in the free-to-play market.

    Brood War never quite reached a perfectly stable state because organizers were smart enough to realize that even if they couldn't update the game's balance or tweak numbers, they could keep changing the maps. Different maps meant different strategies, which meant different counter-strategies, and so on. Whenever it looked like a map had been solved, they just dropped it and added a new one. That's what kept Brood War alive, while a peer like Quake 3 slowly died because they're still playing most of the exact same maps they were playing 2 years after release. As comforting as it may be to see a ztn or pro-dm6 now and again, everyone saw that shit being played out 7 years ago. If someone had the foresight to take things over and do what kespa did then I actually think Quake Live would still be a bigger draw. There was cpma, which at least brought in new maps, but it was never going to be the same, or as big.

    The dota map doesn't change that much, so the heroes change instead. That's what keeps people coming back to the competitive game. You can be sure that the hero pools will be shaken up regularly enough to keep things interesting, and Icefrog is usually patient enough to let people work things out themselves.

    This should be in the OP, great stuff page.

    Pfffffffffflickr ||Steam: IamBic || Bnet: IamBick#1264
  • MazzyxMazzyx A Restoration through Revolution. Registered User regular
    I played my first game of DoTA2 in about 2 or 3 weeks today. I am still a newb doing newbie ques with the limited selection. I decided to play a mid viper and I actually carried for the first time. It felt really good. I can last hit better with Viper than a lot of characters so that helped. But also helped I was able to pull of early ganks on drow and beat the tar out of Zeus in the mid lane.

    By the end I would just eat 2 or 3 enemy players in a team fight super super fast which was really cool. I tend to not play carriers because my lh are bad and I like playing more support oriented heroes. Like I was going nuts without wards on the map and was thinking of spending my precious carry gold on them mid way though the game.

    meijisig.png
  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    Viper is a great starter hero IMO. orb walking makes even a relatively new player useful in lane. Only 1 active + his ult to worry about. The spell damage and attack speed decrease & slow from his 3rd ability make him fairly Tanky. If his base MS was like 20 higher he'd be a beast.

  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    Holy shit Lina is awesome.

    Ash-Housewares
  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    OMFG just had one of my best games ever. SD Dazzle with weaver as lane mate. Between the 2 of us and the tower we were a combined 9-1-11 kills by the 13min mark. They tried a 3 man gank with centaur/earth shaker and elder titan, and we just kited them around with slow/suchi/rewind and spam heals. And then they all quit. Thats a rage quit that makes you grin.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    Met Purge. He was cool, we had a little chat about how little Dota was being represented. I guess CyborgMatt and some Valve employees went over to Free Play to play Dota 2 and were of course disappointed when it wasn't installed. The running assumption is that Riot may have had a hand in that, and given Riot's anti-competitive history and nature it wouldn't shock me. The excuse the enforcers gave was "Dota 2 uses too much bandwidth", which is suspect at best.

    Oh well, it can be played at the Plantronics booth if you're at PAX and want to play. Purge said he's played there a couple of times, and will again, so you might get lucky and be able to group up with Purge and/or CyborgMatt.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • übergeekübergeek Registered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    Met Purge. He was cool, we had a little chat about how little Dota was being represented. I guess CyborgMatt and some Valve employees went over to Free Play to play Dota 2 and were of course disappointed when it wasn't installed. The running assumption is that Riot may have had a hand in that, and given Riot's anti-competitive history and nature it wouldn't shock me. The excuse the enforcers gave was "Dota 2 uses too much bandwidth", which is suspect at best.

    Oh well, it can be played at the Plantronics booth if you're at PAX and want to play. Purge said he's played there a couple of times, and will again, so you might get lucky and be able to group up with Purge and/or CyborgMatt.

    Too much bandwidth? Bullshit. Watching the games from within the client uses a fraction of what a stream feed does at 480P on twitch.

    camo_sig.png
  • sparklesparkle Registered User regular
    bandwidth is complete bullshit. my demos are only about 30 megs for an hour or so long game.

  • MazzyxMazzyx A Restoration through Revolution. Registered User regular
    I mean it shouldn't be taking a serious amount of bandwith over LoL.

    meijisig.png
  • BYToadyBYToady Registered User regular
    150ish megs with voice commentary for the ti3 matches.

    Battletag BYToady#1454
  • sparklesparkle Registered User regular
    the voice commentary is overwhelmingly the largest part of those demos.

  • JutranjoJutranjo Registered User regular
    Obviously Riot bought out the area.

  • Dac VinDac Vin Reimu Hakurei sat in her shrine because she was on the internet. Registered User regular
    From whatever distant knowledge I have of computers: did that enforcer even heard himself? That does not make sense at all.

    camo_sig.png
  • übergeekübergeek Registered User regular
    BYToady wrote: »
    150ish megs with voice commentary for the ti3 matches.

    Yeah and that's with 4 simultaneous audio lines.

    camo_sig.png
    BYToady
  • BigKevBigKev Registered User regular
    OMFG just had one of my best games ever. SD Dazzle with weaver as lane mate. Between the 2 of us and the tower we were a combined 9-1-11 kills by the 13min mark. They tried a 3 man gank with centaur/earth shaker and elder titan, and we just kited them around with slow/suchi/rewind and spam heals. And then they all quit. Thats a rage quit that makes you grin.
    SD Dazzle is stronnnng, and such an interesting piece of synergy. The illusions from Disruption increasing the damage from Dazzle's heal. Wonderful.

    Steam ID : BigKev87
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    Dac Vin wrote: »
    From whatever distant knowledge I have of computers: did that enforcer even heard himself? That does not make sense at all.

    I guess it depends, enforcers are volunteers after all, they probably have no idea why. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Riot had a hand in it though. Or maybe whoever set up the free to play is a big LoL homer.

    What is surprising is Valve's complete lack of hustle on showing it there. Though I suppose they dumped all their chips into TI3, and couldn't be arsed to man a booth and give out swag. Disappointing regardless, seems like a wasted opportunity.

  • SevorakSevorak Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Riot always had a huge presence at PAX so maybe Valve just didn't want to get into a fight with them? Also LoL has its big tournaments going on right now as well and it is DotA2's downtime after TI3.

    But it is odd since Valve was actually in the same convention center for TI3.

    TI3 was at Benaroya Hall, a few blocks from the convention center. PAX used it as the main theater a few years ago but it's not part of the center.

    steam_sig.png 3DS: 0748-2282-4229
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited September 2013
    Got confirmation from an Enforcer, Dota 2 is not on the machines (and not allowed to be installed even if you login to your own Steam account) because Riot sponsored the area. In fact, Riot employees were walking around the area, and if you play LoL from a PAX computer you get double XP/IP.

    So yeah, that's a thing. I am a bit frown town that PA/PAX saw this as okay. Doesn't this sort of go against the spirit of the entire convention? Or has it just reached a point where commercialization's unstoppable force has taken over? It's one thing to allow Riot to have a huge presence there, it's another to allow them to buy out the "free" play PC area and not allow a competitors game on the machines.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
    übergeek
  • MazzyxMazzyx A Restoration through Revolution. Registered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    Got confirmation from an Enforcer, Dota 2 is not on the machines (and not allowed to be installed even if you login to your own Steam account) because Riot sponsored the area. In fact, Riot employees were walking around the area, and if you play LoL from a PAX computer you get double XP/IP.

    So yeah, that's a thing. I am a bit frown town that PA/PAX saw this as okay. Doesn't this sort of go against the spirit of the entire convention? Or has it just reached a point where commercialization's unstoppable force has taken over? It's one thing to allow Riot to have a huge presence there, it's another to allow them to buy out the "free" play PC area and not allow a competitors game on the machines.

    That really sucks. PAX is suppose to be for all nerds, gamers and such but that is kind of telling the DoTA folks that your aren't welcome here.

    I understand though it is a lot of money now and my guess Riot through a ton for it to be on the computers there. Still it is sad because the "free" to play stuff should be allowed to have any game on it.

    meijisig.png
    GnomeTankDacDomhnall
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    I kind of want to write a Khoo a letter and voice my complaint, but I know it would just get ignored.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    Kind of a bummer you can't install it on the the free to plays at any rate. Oh Riot, will you ever change? I wouldn't feel too bad though, Dota 2 beats LoL on almost every conceivable level beyond there's no denying in LoL, and the skins are allowed to be funny. I still remember logging into Dota 2 and having every hero available to pick, only a matter of time.

  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    You'd figure they'd be all hands on deck trying to design burkas for their characters so that the upcoming WCG isn't a complete farce.

    Does anyone really care what games are available at a non-byoc area in a convention that's already anti-competitive gaming?

    (Mostly) Competitive Gaming Blog Updated December 10th. "Second Chances" (Short Story)
    stream
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited September 2013
    It's not anti-competitive gaming though. It's dripping in competitive gaming this year. LoL has the entire sixth floor, they are running the regionals here, Dawngate, Strife and Infinite Crisis have a presence. Kingston has a booth with all the various gaming pros they sponsor. Same with Plantronics, SteelSeries and Astro....it's very much not anti-competitive gaming this year, that's the rub.

    And yes I care. Excluding an entire group of gamers from playing their game of choice for some dollars from Riot goes completely against the spirit of PAX.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    Conventions aren't really about competitive gaming to begin with. Really, the penny-arcade (in all of its iterations) isn't much for serious (or even semi-serious) competitive gaming.

    (Mostly) Competitive Gaming Blog Updated December 10th. "Second Chances" (Short Story)
    stream
  • DacDac Registered User regular
    So did you just completely ignore the content of gnome's post or


This discussion has been closed.