Someone claiming to be Zoe Quinn submitting a DMCA notice is not confirmation that it was sent by her.
If you scroll down:
SPACKlick >Matt, in the censored information, does it give you good reason to believe that this is in fact from Zoe Quinn and not someone, for whatever reason, pretending to be Zoe Quinn?
MundaneMatt > Yes it does.
So there's three possibilities.
Zoe Quinn took it down.
Someone with access to enough of ZQ's details to fool Matt took it down.
Matt is a liar.
The censored fields are her address, phone number and e-mail address, all of which are things her harassers have access to.
The given company name is 'The Quinnspiracy'. That doesn't strike you as a bit off?
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I posted this in my long post from several pages ago, but I'm going to do it again:
Combined with the above, it's immensely obvious that things like NotYourShield and similar were astroturfing to disguise the fact this lot are relentlessly awful people.
#NotYourShield is from 4chan, but it doesn't look like it was organised by the guys doing the raiding
Actually, yes it was and given that several of the loudest of them got caught out being sockpuppets (new users with stolen pictures of women/minorities from other sites) it was a part of the raiding. Quinn has posted some more transcripts and links on twitter about how they organised it.
I can't wait to see these full transcripts she has. It's going to be pretty great.
The censored fields are her address, phone number and e-mail address, all of which are things her harassers have access to.
The given company name is 'The Quinnspiracy'. That doesn't strike you as a bit off?
Quinnspiracy is her twitter and tumblr handle, and is the named "developer" of Depression Quest. At the time that DMCA was made (which was pretty early on) I don't know if her harassers did have access to her details.
Beyond that, I doubt the mystery is going to be solved in this thread. Matt had good reason to believe it was from ZQ, and either that's enough for you, or it's not.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Actually, yes it was and given that several of the loudest of them got caught out being sockpuppets (new users with stolen pictures of women/minorities from other sites) it was a part of the raiding. Quinn has posted some more transcripts and links on twitter about how they organised it.
I can't wait to see these full transcripts she has. It's going to be pretty great.
It looks more like they co-opted it.
The whole thing is conspiracies within conspiracies at this point, and again, I agree with TB's description of 4chan as a blunderbuss. The dudes in the IRC are definitely organising a whole chunk of stuff, but I have a hard time believing they're in command of even half the people involved in this shit.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
The censored fields are her address, phone number and e-mail address, all of which are things her harassers have access to.
The given company name is 'The Quinnspiracy'. That doesn't strike you as a bit off?
Quinnspiracy is her twitter and tumblr handle, and is the named "developer" of Depression Quest. At the time that DMCA was made (which was pretty early on) I don't know if her harassers did have access to her details.
They did. This entire thing is an extension of the hate brigade, harassment and trolling of Quinn from last year over trying to promote getting Depression Quest on steam green light.
Beyond that, I doubt the mystery is going to be solved in this thread. Matt had good reason to believe it was from ZQ, and either that's enough for you, or it's not.
Personally it doesn't matter to me either way. Using a DMCA is a pretty lame thing to do and highly disagreeable, but then again so is publishing people's personal details and spreading a non-scandal to harass women on misogynistic terms.
So it entirely comes out in the wash to me as to who looks worse with this incident.
Actually, yes it was and given that several of the loudest of them got caught out being sockpuppets (new users with stolen pictures of women/minorities from other sites) it was a part of the raiding. Quinn has posted some more transcripts and links on twitter about how they organised it.
I can't wait to see these full transcripts she has. It's going to be pretty great.
It looks more like they co-opted it.
No, they started it and numerous posts show and prove they did. There is some further information in the storify of various tweets Zoe has been posting. https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate
It is not in dispute that notyourshield was an AstroTurf campaign to add legitimacy to an online harassment campaign and "distract" others from their intentions.
No, they started it and numerous posts show and prove they did. There is some further information in the storify of various tweets Zoe has been posting. https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate
It is not in dispute that notyourshield was an AstroTurf campaign to add legitimacy to an online harassment campaign and "distract" others from their intentions.
Again, see the archive I linked earlier (which in turn was retweeted on ZQ's twitter, that you're now referring to).
It wasn't something that they came up with in the IRC, though yes, they were certainly using it. It was suggested by a random anon in that thread.
I'm going to drop it though, it's a pretty minor thing to quibble over.
No, they started it and numerous posts show and prove they did. There is some further information in the storify of various tweets Zoe has been posting. https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate
It is not in dispute that notyourshield was an AstroTurf campaign to add legitimacy to an online harassment campaign and "distract" others from their intentions.
Again, see the archive I linked earlier (which in turn was retweeted on ZQ's twitter, that you're now referring to).
And again, see the piles of evidence, random new users, people found to be "borrowing" photos of minorities or women from elsewhere and the post on "strategy" from 4chan that described needing a second campaign to use "minority assets".
It was never legitimate, even if some of the users using it were. It was always a part of the harassment campaign and coordinated as such.
And it's also not a minor thing, it's an extremely unsettling and worrying approach to overall strategy for harassment campaigns to try to hide behind minorities. This is the first of the major Internet hate campaigns to try such a thing and it's rather disturbing.
And again, see the piles of evidence, random new users, people found to be "borrowing" photos of minorities or women from elsewhere and the post on "strategy" from 4chan that described needing a second campaign to use "minority assets".
It was never legitimate, even if some of the users using it were. It was always a part of the harassment campaign and coordinated as such.
Now for each person on this list, go through their tweets just quickly to see if you think they're a sockpuppet, or a real person.
Yes, the 4chan illuminati no doubt used it, because that's what 4chan does. But it's also a legitimate movement in and of itself. Whether you think that's a good thing is up to you.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited September 2014
I have not disputed that there are people who think it is a legitimate thing.
It has no bearing on why it started, what it started for or what the actual point of it was: Which was to disguise harassment directed at women and minorities in the gaming industry.
And once people got wind of them, the sockpuppets rapidly tried to clear themselves out in a big hurry and they have given up on trying that now. There are a handful of people using it legitimately, but what if they are? Being female or a minority doesn't mean you can't actually have highly problematic views. Including believing that harassment is okay for people you disagree with.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I am going to defend TB here and suggest that "DMCA" is the mans trigger for his blood pressure to go up and go on the attack. TB has often railed against people filing DMCA notices on youtubers, because they are immensely difficult to fight and can cause you to lose your entire livelihood or career. For example, game developers upset with him making bad reviews of their games have filed DMCA notices on his work. These are difficult to fight and for him, cause an immense amount of stress and yes, I would even say fear.
For him specifically, he would have no particular sympathy for someone who abuses the terrible DMCA system. It's impossible to say if Zoe did file the DMCA or not, but it's easy to see why from tbs point of view filing a DMCA would be a really terrible thing to do (over reasonably tenuous grounds). It could be someone trolling by using Zoe's details, because they've been available for a while now, but it could also have been Zoe.
As I said, I don't think contributing to a nonsense Internet hate campaign is a good thing and I don't think using DMCA is a good thing either (as it's complete bullshit). It is easy to understand though why someone personally invested in youtube would have a high degree of interest in DMCA requests.
And again, see the piles of evidence, random new users, people found to be "borrowing" photos of minorities or women from elsewhere and the post on "strategy" from 4chan that described needing a second campaign to use "minority assets".
It was never legitimate, even if some of the users using it were. It was always a part of the harassment campaign and coordinated as such.
Now for each person on this list, go through their tweets just quickly to see if you think they're a sockpuppet, or a real person.
Yes, the 4chan illuminati no doubt used it, because that's what 4chan does. But it's also a legitimate movement in and of itself. Whether you think that's a good thing is up to you.
No. It isn't a legitimate movement. There is absolutely nothing legitimate about any of this. It was started by a bunch of misogynist assholes, is being continued by a bunch of misogynist assholes, and will perpetuate by a bunch of misogynist assholes. If there WAS a legitimate issue, they wouldn't only be attacking women developers and the men who dare stick up for them. They wouldn't only be doxxing female developers and the men who dare stick up for them. They wouldn't be driving only female developers and the men who dare stick up for them out of their homes with rape and death threats.
Don't tell me there is a legitimate issue here because there fucking isn't.
I am going to defend TB here and suggest that "DMCA" is the mans trigger for his blood pressure to go up and go on the attack. TB has often railed against people filing DMCA notices on youtubers, because they are immensely difficult to fight and can cause you to lose your entire livelihood or career. For example, game developers upset with him making bad reviews of their games have filed DMCA notices on his work. These are difficult to fight and for him, cause an immense amount of stress and yes, I would even say fear.
For him specifically, he would have no particular sympathy for someone who abuses the terrible DMCA system. It's impossible to say if Zoe did file the DMCA or not, but it's easy to see why from tbs point of view filing a DMCA would be a really terrible thing to do (over reasonably tenuous grounds). It could be someone trolling by using Zoe's details, because they've been available for a while now, but it could also have been Zoe.
As I said, I don't think contributing to a nonsense Internet hate campaign is a good thing and I don't think using DMCA is a good thing either (as it's complete bullshit). It is easy to understand though why someone personally invested in youtube would have a high degree of interest in DMCA requests.
And he should have known that with everything currently going on about Zoe, writing an article smearing her because of something of which there isn't even any proof she did, might not be the best idea.
No. It isn't a legitimate movement. There is absolutely nothing legitimate about any of this. It was started by a bunch of misogynist assholes, is being continued by a bunch of misogynist assholes, and will perpetuate by a bunch of misogynist assholes. If there WAS a legitimate issue, they wouldn't only be attacking women developers and the men who dare stick up for them. They wouldn't only be doxxing female developers and the men who dare stick up for them. They wouldn't be driving only female developers and the men who dare stick up for them out of their homes with rape and death threats.
Don't tell me there is a legitimate issue here because there fucking isn't.
#nys isn't doing any of the things you're listing.
Like half the point of #nys is discrediting the myth that gamers are white male misogynists, which is a common narrative here (and not without truth, but not without obvious inaccuracy either).
This is why I suggested guilt by association not be a thing.
definitely at least some of the notyourshield people are legit minorities
what they're attempting to do is prove that feminists hate white men. the logic goes that feminists are assuming if you've done something bad, like harass zoe quinn, you must be a white man
since feminists don't hate white men, the whole thing is absurd, but it's not entirely sockpuppets. there are some genuine minorities who believe that
and, of course, feminists kinda hate white men, but that's like 5% serious criticism of white male culture and 95% trolling
If you really care about corruption in games journalism....
If you really think that Gone and Depression quest are somehow ruining the industry....
If you really believe that somehow there is leftleaning liberal feminist bias in gaming....
Now is exactly the time to shut up and not get entangled in any of this bullshit.
Guilt by association is very much a thing if the time you coose to raise your banners is when vile people are leading the attack. If you stand with them, behind them, you are going to be lumped with them, because it is very hard to distinguish between guy A going I believe A, B and C, and the guy that cheers him on that later proclaims it only ever being about B and C. Especially when there is a core running organised campaigns to lure in people to their cause with halftruths and propaganda, while at the same time engaging in what are without a doubt criminal acts.
It is the equivalent of showing up to a riot with a peaceful sign and marching along them while they are throwing rocks. Even if you did nothing wrong, it doesn't really matter. The optics are bad, and the broad brush will paint you in a bad light.
If you really want this discussion, wait 3 months, then write something that does not mention Gamergate, 4chan, #nys, Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkisiaan, Jenn Frank, the sex lives of anyone, MRA's, SJW.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
No. It isn't a legitimate movement. There is absolutely nothing legitimate about any of this. It was started by a bunch of misogynist assholes, is being continued by a bunch of misogynist assholes, and will perpetuate by a bunch of misogynist assholes. If there WAS a legitimate issue, they wouldn't only be attacking women developers and the men who dare stick up for them. They wouldn't only be doxxing female developers and the men who dare stick up for them. They wouldn't be driving only female developers and the men who dare stick up for them out of their homes with rape and death threats.
Don't tell me there is a legitimate issue here because there fucking isn't.
#nys isn't doing any of the things you're listing.
It is all about disguising all of those things and trying to make an Internet hate campaign seem legitimate. Its existence is defined as being a counter to "sjw" posters and to try and distract anyone who gives it a cursory look. The tag is every single bit about enabling the ongoing harassment and was about that from the very beginning. The existence of a handful of posters who used it in a genuine way does not change that.
It's like how all the gamergate lot complaining about journalists calling out the gaming community for being toxic, an actually supportable assertion from any comments section on games on the Internet, while actual sustained vicious attacks drive women entirely out of wanting to write about games isn't important to them.
Both of them are entirely misdirected arms of an harassment campaign. Both of them have people who genuinely think this is important and are using it legitimately. This latter point does not change anything about why or how these things started, which is to create a massive online harassment campaign against women and anyone who supports them in games.
If you really want this discussion, wait 3 months, then write something that does not mention Gamergate, 4chan, #nys, Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkisiaan, Jenn Frank, the sex lives of anyone, MRA's, SJW.
This isn't going to happen, because this isn't meeting with the goals of the people behind this.
And many of the others are completely clueless about anything in journalism and honestly believe "gaming indies" are the major enemy of gaming. That in itself tells you everything you need to know. Gaming indies who need to practically beg or just hope by luck for coverage are the enemy to them, while people in the industry being flown to another country, put up in a swanky hotel and play a game under PR orchestrated effects are 100% fine.
Now ask yourself this: Who does the triple aaa gaming industry most often target games at?
Everything that tells you the true motivations of all of this is encompassed in that answer. What these guys are afraid of is that triple aaa industry realizing they don't need them anymore to make successful games.
I am going to defend TB here and suggest that "DMCA" is the mans trigger for his blood pressure to go up and go on the attack. TB has often railed against people filing DMCA notices on youtubers, because they are immensely difficult to fight and can cause you to lose your entire livelihood or career. For example, game developers upset with him making bad reviews of their games have filed DMCA notices on his work. These are difficult to fight and for him, cause an immense amount of stress and yes, I would even say fear.
For him specifically, he would have no particular sympathy for someone who abuses the terrible DMCA system. It's impossible to say if Zoe did file the DMCA or not, but it's easy to see why from tbs point of view filing a DMCA would be a really terrible thing to do (over reasonably tenuous grounds). It could be someone trolling by using Zoe's details, because they've been available for a while now, but it could also have been Zoe.
As I said, I don't think contributing to a nonsense Internet hate campaign is a good thing and I don't think using DMCA is a good thing either (as it's complete bullshit). It is easy to understand though why someone personally invested in youtube would have a high degree of interest in DMCA requests.
That's fair enough; I think it was a poor choice for him to go ahead and throw the article out there given how unsure of the details he is / was, but I make my fair share of poor choices every day too. So it goes.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
since feminists don't hate white men, the whole thing is absurd, but it's not entirely sockpuppets. there are some genuine minorities who believe that
and, of course, feminists kinda hate white men, but that's like 5% serious criticism of white male culture and 95% trolling
I think it should be worth pointing out at this point that there is a gap between current pretty reasonable feminist thinking (post-patriarchal stuff, gender-neutrality, gender-appropriate legislation), and the stance a lot of people declaring themselves feminists take.
The misandrist sector of feminism isn't nearly as big as the misogynist sector of, well, everywhere, but it is every bit as nasty. Harassment, death threats etc., aren't a stranger to either side.
since feminists don't hate white men, the whole thing is absurd, but it's not entirely sockpuppets. there are some genuine minorities who believe that
and, of course, feminists kinda hate white men, but that's like 5% serious criticism of white male culture and 95% trolling
I think it should be worth pointing out at this point that there is a gap between current pretty reasonable feminist thinking (post-patriarchal stuff, gender-neutrality, gender-appropriate legislation), and the stance a lot of people declaring themselves feminists take.
The misandrist sector of feminism isn't nearly as big as the misogynist sector of, well, everywhere, but it is every bit as nasty. Harassment, death threats etc., aren't a stranger to either side.
...I don't see anything in that image that is the equivalent of sexual harassment?
EDIT: Like, where are the death threats you are saying that image neatly encapsulates? I think the closest thing is '#IStandwithJon at the Gates of Hell', which is a world apart from telling someone you're going to kill them & describing how you're going to do it.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
since feminists don't hate white men, the whole thing is absurd, but it's not entirely sockpuppets. there are some genuine minorities who believe that
and, of course, feminists kinda hate white men, but that's like 5% serious criticism of white male culture and 95% trolling
I think it should be worth pointing out at this point that there is a gap between current pretty reasonable feminist thinking (post-patriarchal stuff, gender-neutrality, gender-appropriate legislation), and the stance a lot of people declaring themselves feminists take.
The misandrist sector of feminism isn't nearly as big as the misogynist sector of, well, everywhere, but it is every bit as nasty. Harassment, death threats etc., aren't a stranger to either side.
And yet, what tells you more is that as a man I can engage people with gamergate or whatever generally without being significantly harassed or threatened at all. For example, the guy who has been retweeted about 1.5k times for saying "Fuck off gamers".
Meanwhile, a woman writes an article that is fairly even handed and doesn't say anything near as crass gets so much harassment and bile thrown her way that she quits.
The point is, I can tell you numerous people run out of gaming by the misogynists because there are a shitload of them. Hell, let's go a step up: I can tell you people who lost their jobs in the games industry by pissing off gamers such as Adam Orth.
Absolutely no white man has lost his position in games by being harassed by misandry laden women. Nobody.
since feminists don't hate white men, the whole thing is absurd, but it's not entirely sockpuppets. there are some genuine minorities who believe that
and, of course, feminists kinda hate white men, but that's like 5% serious criticism of white male culture and 95% trolling
I think it should be worth pointing out at this point that there is a gap between current pretty reasonable feminist thinking (post-patriarchal stuff, gender-neutrality, gender-appropriate legislation), and the stance a lot of people declaring themselves feminists take.
The misandrist sector of feminism isn't nearly as big as the misogynist sector of, well, everywhere, but it is every bit as nasty. Harassment, death threats etc., aren't a stranger to either side.
It is the equivalent of showing up to a riot with a peaceful sign and marching along them while they are throwing rocks. Even if you did nothing wrong, it doesn't really matter. The optics are bad, and the broad brush will paint you in a bad light.
If you really want this discussion, wait 3 months, then write something that does not mention Gamergate, 4chan, #nys, Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkisiaan, Jenn Frank, the sex lives of anyone, MRA's, SJW.
1) This is basically saying "if you don't agree, don't post".
2) The entire point of this topic is that we're not "in the riots" as it were. As opposed to if I were to go on twitter and start attempting to condense complicated views into 140 words, here we actually do get to have a calm discussion.
since feminists don't hate white men, the whole thing is absurd, but it's not entirely sockpuppets. there are some genuine minorities who believe that
and, of course, feminists kinda hate white men, but that's like 5% serious criticism of white male culture and 95% trolling
I think it should be worth pointing out at this point that there is a gap between current pretty reasonable feminist thinking (post-patriarchal stuff, gender-neutrality, gender-appropriate legislation), and the stance a lot of people declaring themselves feminists take.
The misandrist sector of feminism isn't nearly as big as the misogynist sector of, well, everywhere, but it is every bit as nasty. Harassment, death threats etc., aren't a stranger to either side.
since feminists don't hate white men, the whole thing is absurd, but it's not entirely sockpuppets. there are some genuine minorities who believe that
and, of course, feminists kinda hate white men, but that's like 5% serious criticism of white male culture and 95% trolling
I think it should be worth pointing out at this point that there is a gap between current pretty reasonable feminist thinking (post-patriarchal stuff, gender-neutrality, gender-appropriate legislation), and the stance a lot of people declaring themselves feminists take.
The misandrist sector of feminism isn't nearly as big as the misogynist sector of, well, everywhere, but it is every bit as nasty. Harassment, death threats etc., aren't a stranger to either side.
A fun little example of...what? There are no death threats in there. I'd hesitate to even call it harassment.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited September 2014
Also JonTron jumped on the whole misogyny bandwagon and even retweeted a degrading comic featuring Zoe having sex with multiple men (in the 2007 Jade Raymond style). When called on it he thought that the sustained harassment of a woman and republishing disgusting degrading comics about her was just "lol jokes".
This doesn't make harassment right, but he sure did make a tremendous amount of people really angry for doing things that this thread has generally called out for being terrible.
That macro ends on the perfect note of tone deafness. A defender of his saying he's getting it as bad as Quinn.
I mean, that thing is REALLY padded if that's supposed to show the ugly side. There's definetly a few shitheads in there. But there's also things like some dude coveting his birds? I guess it is needed to make it look larger.
since feminists don't hate white men, the whole thing is absurd, but it's not entirely sockpuppets. there are some genuine minorities who believe that
and, of course, feminists kinda hate white men, but that's like 5% serious criticism of white male culture and 95% trolling
I think it should be worth pointing out at this point that there is a gap between current pretty reasonable feminist thinking (post-patriarchal stuff, gender-neutrality, gender-appropriate legislation), and the stance a lot of people declaring themselves feminists take.
The misandrist sector of feminism isn't nearly as big as the misogynist sector of, well, everywhere, but it is every bit as nasty. Harassment, death threats etc., aren't a stranger to either side.
...I don't see anything in that image that is the equivalent of sexual harassment?
Maybe, just maybe, as has been said several times in this thread, it's not a dick waving contest?
Are you going to address the fact JonTron joined in the harassment with disgusting jokes and retweeting - then defending - a degrading comic featuring Zoe having sex with multiple guys? I mean, people in this thread have harassed Jon by your standards by calling out such disgusting horrible behavior as being that of trolls, assholes and similar.
But I am certainly not going to apologize for it and many of those tweets were in response to him declaring harassment as being "lol jokes" was fine.
...I don't see anything in that image that is the equivalent of sexual harassment?
Maybe, just maybe, as has been said several times in this thread, it's not a dick waving contest?
Uh. Okay?
I don't understand what you mean?
You posted an image and stated that this image was a 'fun little example' of death threats, harassment & misandry aimed at men by feminist groups. I don't see any deaths threats or harassment in that image. Saying in a general Twitter feed that '#IStandWithJonTron so I can slam dunk him into a dumpster' is on the same level as Tube saying he'll break your legs if you violate some of the forum's policies. It's not something to take too seriously.
The type of harassment received by Sarkeesian, Quinn, etc, is along the lines of, 'Here is your address. Here is your phone number. Here is where your children go to school. Now, here is the name and mailing address of the violent convict we have mailed / e-mailed this information to,' which is something to be taken much more seriously.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Are you going to address the fact JonTron joined in the harassment with disgusting jokes and retweeting - then defending - a degrading comic featuring Zoe having sex with multiple guys?
Are you going to address the fact JonTron joined in the harassment with disgusting jokes and retweeting - then defending - a degrading comic featuring Zoe having sex with multiple guys?
Are you going to address the fact JonTron joined in the harassment with disgusting jokes and retweeting - then defending - a degrading comic featuring Zoe having sex with multiple guys?
Could you link this?
I cannot see it on his twitter feed.
For all his big talk about outrage and not giving into offense he has actually deleted them.
It was discussed widely here in the Game Grumps thread.
since feminists don't hate white men, the whole thing is absurd, but it's not entirely sockpuppets. there are some genuine minorities who believe that
and, of course, feminists kinda hate white men, but that's like 5% serious criticism of white male culture and 95% trolling
I think it should be worth pointing out at this point that there is a gap between current pretty reasonable feminist thinking (post-patriarchal stuff, gender-neutrality, gender-appropriate legislation), and the stance a lot of people declaring themselves feminists take.
The misandrist sector of feminism isn't nearly as big as the misogynist sector of, well, everywhere, but it is every bit as nasty. Harassment, death threats etc., aren't a stranger to either side.
The two are so disproportionate that you insisting there are "two sides" is distracting from the real problem.
There aren't two sides, and the people who started this thing don't give two shits about journalistic integrity.
They hate women.
Period.
Well, there was that issue of the guy on these boards getting doxxed by some of the more SJW posters and having pictures of his wang sent around to other posters about two years ago. Harassment has been used been used heavily for years and years and contributed to the buildup of this incident. There are people on both sides that hate each other with such intensity that I can't get my head around it, and I play techies in DOTA.
The "Two sides" narrative can't be ignored (Though it in no way legitimises any actions that have been taken).
Posts
The censored fields are her address, phone number and e-mail address, all of which are things her harassers have access to.
The given company name is 'The Quinnspiracy'. That doesn't strike you as a bit off?
Actually, yes it was and given that several of the loudest of them got caught out being sockpuppets (new users with stolen pictures of women/minorities from other sites) it was a part of the raiding. Quinn has posted some more transcripts and links on twitter about how they organised it.
I can't wait to see these full transcripts she has. It's going to be pretty great.
Beyond that, I doubt the mystery is going to be solved in this thread. Matt had good reason to believe it was from ZQ, and either that's enough for you, or it's not.
The whole thing is conspiracies within conspiracies at this point, and again, I agree with TB's description of 4chan as a blunderbuss. The dudes in the IRC are definitely organising a whole chunk of stuff, but I have a hard time believing they're in command of even half the people involved in this shit.
They did. This entire thing is an extension of the hate brigade, harassment and trolling of Quinn from last year over trying to promote getting Depression Quest on steam green light.
Personally it doesn't matter to me either way. Using a DMCA is a pretty lame thing to do and highly disagreeable, but then again so is publishing people's personal details and spreading a non-scandal to harass women on misogynistic terms.
So it entirely comes out in the wash to me as to who looks worse with this incident.
No, they started it and numerous posts show and prove they did. There is some further information in the storify of various tweets Zoe has been posting. https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate
It is not in dispute that notyourshield was an AstroTurf campaign to add legitimacy to an online harassment campaign and "distract" others from their intentions.
Storify of her tweets to make things a bit easier to read / has a few more.
It wasn't something that they came up with in the IRC, though yes, they were certainly using it. It was suggested by a random anon in that thread.
I'm going to drop it though, it's a pretty minor thing to quibble over.
It's not. And regardless of whether or not it's good enough for me personally, it's certainly not 'confirmed'.
And again, see the piles of evidence, random new users, people found to be "borrowing" photos of minorities or women from elsewhere and the post on "strategy" from 4chan that described needing a second campaign to use "minority assets".
It was never legitimate, even if some of the users using it were. It was always a part of the harassment campaign and coordinated as such.
And it's also not a minor thing, it's an extremely unsettling and worrying approach to overall strategy for harassment campaigns to try to hide behind minorities. This is the first of the major Internet hate campaigns to try such a thing and it's rather disturbing.
Go here: https://twitter.com/hashtag/notyourshield?src=hash
Now for each person on this list, go through their tweets just quickly to see if you think they're a sockpuppet, or a real person.
Yes, the 4chan illuminati no doubt used it, because that's what 4chan does. But it's also a legitimate movement in and of itself. Whether you think that's a good thing is up to you.
It has no bearing on why it started, what it started for or what the actual point of it was: Which was to disguise harassment directed at women and minorities in the gaming industry.
And once people got wind of them, the sockpuppets rapidly tried to clear themselves out in a big hurry and they have given up on trying that now. There are a handful of people using it legitimately, but what if they are? Being female or a minority doesn't mean you can't actually have highly problematic views. Including believing that harassment is okay for people you disagree with.
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For him specifically, he would have no particular sympathy for someone who abuses the terrible DMCA system. It's impossible to say if Zoe did file the DMCA or not, but it's easy to see why from tbs point of view filing a DMCA would be a really terrible thing to do (over reasonably tenuous grounds). It could be someone trolling by using Zoe's details, because they've been available for a while now, but it could also have been Zoe.
As I said, I don't think contributing to a nonsense Internet hate campaign is a good thing and I don't think using DMCA is a good thing either (as it's complete bullshit). It is easy to understand though why someone personally invested in youtube would have a high degree of interest in DMCA requests.
No. It isn't a legitimate movement. There is absolutely nothing legitimate about any of this. It was started by a bunch of misogynist assholes, is being continued by a bunch of misogynist assholes, and will perpetuate by a bunch of misogynist assholes. If there WAS a legitimate issue, they wouldn't only be attacking women developers and the men who dare stick up for them. They wouldn't only be doxxing female developers and the men who dare stick up for them. They wouldn't be driving only female developers and the men who dare stick up for them out of their homes with rape and death threats.
Don't tell me there is a legitimate issue here because there fucking isn't.
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And he should have known that with everything currently going on about Zoe, writing an article smearing her because of something of which there isn't even any proof she did, might not be the best idea.
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Like half the point of #nys is discrediting the myth that gamers are white male misogynists, which is a common narrative here (and not without truth, but not without obvious inaccuracy either).
This is why I suggested guilt by association not be a thing.
what they're attempting to do is prove that feminists hate white men. the logic goes that feminists are assuming if you've done something bad, like harass zoe quinn, you must be a white man
since feminists don't hate white men, the whole thing is absurd, but it's not entirely sockpuppets. there are some genuine minorities who believe that
and, of course, feminists kinda hate white men, but that's like 5% serious criticism of white male culture and 95% trolling
If you really think that Gone and Depression quest are somehow ruining the industry....
If you really believe that somehow there is leftleaning liberal feminist bias in gaming....
Now is exactly the time to shut up and not get entangled in any of this bullshit.
Guilt by association is very much a thing if the time you coose to raise your banners is when vile people are leading the attack. If you stand with them, behind them, you are going to be lumped with them, because it is very hard to distinguish between guy A going I believe A, B and C, and the guy that cheers him on that later proclaims it only ever being about B and C. Especially when there is a core running organised campaigns to lure in people to their cause with halftruths and propaganda, while at the same time engaging in what are without a doubt criminal acts.
It is the equivalent of showing up to a riot with a peaceful sign and marching along them while they are throwing rocks. Even if you did nothing wrong, it doesn't really matter. The optics are bad, and the broad brush will paint you in a bad light.
If you really want this discussion, wait 3 months, then write something that does not mention Gamergate, 4chan, #nys, Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkisiaan, Jenn Frank, the sex lives of anyone, MRA's, SJW.
It is all about disguising all of those things and trying to make an Internet hate campaign seem legitimate. Its existence is defined as being a counter to "sjw" posters and to try and distract anyone who gives it a cursory look. The tag is every single bit about enabling the ongoing harassment and was about that from the very beginning. The existence of a handful of posters who used it in a genuine way does not change that.
It's like how all the gamergate lot complaining about journalists calling out the gaming community for being toxic, an actually supportable assertion from any comments section on games on the Internet, while actual sustained vicious attacks drive women entirely out of wanting to write about games isn't important to them.
Both of them are entirely misdirected arms of an harassment campaign. Both of them have people who genuinely think this is important and are using it legitimately. This latter point does not change anything about why or how these things started, which is to create a massive online harassment campaign against women and anyone who supports them in games.
This isn't going to happen, because this isn't meeting with the goals of the people behind this.
And many of the others are completely clueless about anything in journalism and honestly believe "gaming indies" are the major enemy of gaming. That in itself tells you everything you need to know. Gaming indies who need to practically beg or just hope by luck for coverage are the enemy to them, while people in the industry being flown to another country, put up in a swanky hotel and play a game under PR orchestrated effects are 100% fine.
Now ask yourself this: Who does the triple aaa gaming industry most often target games at?
Everything that tells you the true motivations of all of this is encompassed in that answer. What these guys are afraid of is that triple aaa industry realizing they don't need them anymore to make successful games.
IMO, that day is coming.
That's fair enough; I think it was a poor choice for him to go ahead and throw the article out there given how unsure of the details he is / was, but I make my fair share of poor choices every day too. So it goes.
The misandrist sector of feminism isn't nearly as big as the misogynist sector of, well, everywhere, but it is every bit as nasty. Harassment, death threats etc., aren't a stranger to either side.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/818/932/fa8.jpg
for just a fun little example
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...I don't see anything in that image that is the equivalent of sexual harassment?
EDIT: Like, where are the death threats you are saying that image neatly encapsulates? I think the closest thing is '#IStandwithJon at the Gates of Hell', which is a world apart from telling someone you're going to kill them & describing how you're going to do it.
And yet, what tells you more is that as a man I can engage people with gamergate or whatever generally without being significantly harassed or threatened at all. For example, the guy who has been retweeted about 1.5k times for saying "Fuck off gamers".
Meanwhile, a woman writes an article that is fairly even handed and doesn't say anything near as crass gets so much harassment and bile thrown her way that she quits.
The point is, I can tell you numerous people run out of gaming by the misogynists because there are a shitload of them. Hell, let's go a step up: I can tell you people who lost their jobs in the games industry by pissing off gamers such as Adam Orth.
Absolutely no white man has lost his position in games by being harassed by misandry laden women. Nobody.
The two are so disproportionate that you insisting there are "two sides" is distracting from the real problem.
There aren't two sides, and the people who started this thing don't give two shits about journalistic integrity.
They hate women.
Period.
I do in a sense, but ZQ had nothing to do with it. Games journalism has been screwy for years, and this isn't going to change anything. They're not. Liberal, yes, feminist, dear god no.
1) This is basically saying "if you don't agree, don't post".
2) The entire point of this topic is that we're not "in the riots" as it were. As opposed to if I were to go on twitter and start attempting to condense complicated views into 140 words, here we actually do get to have a calm discussion.
this is just people talking shit about jontron, dude
like, if language existed specifically to vilify men, and i saw that language in there, you'd be correct
if they were calling him a rapist, perhaps? maaaaaybe some of the neckbeard stuff, although i have a hard time believing that's equivalent to "whore"
but as it stands this is an utterly false dichotomy
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This doesn't make harassment right, but he sure did make a tremendous amount of people really angry for doing things that this thread has generally called out for being terrible.
I mean, that thing is REALLY padded if that's supposed to show the ugly side. There's definetly a few shitheads in there. But there's also things like some dude coveting his birds? I guess it is needed to make it look larger.
Are you being serious?
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i am absolutely 100% certain that has happened to someone, at some point, somewhere in the world
the jontron thing's not it though
it's not misandrist at all though
it's not "less misandrist", it just isn't misandrist
Are you going to address the fact JonTron joined in the harassment with disgusting jokes and retweeting - then defending - a degrading comic featuring Zoe having sex with multiple guys? I mean, people in this thread have harassed Jon by your standards by calling out such disgusting horrible behavior as being that of trolls, assholes and similar.
But I am certainly not going to apologize for it and many of those tweets were in response to him declaring harassment as being "lol jokes" was fine.
Meanwhile, this was what Jenn Frank did that deserved her being run out of the games industry forever. Jon however is still making videos about games and will be making further degrading jokes about women in future.
Maybe you need some serious perspective?
Uh. Okay?
I don't understand what you mean?
You posted an image and stated that this image was a 'fun little example' of death threats, harassment & misandry aimed at men by feminist groups. I don't see any deaths threats or harassment in that image. Saying in a general Twitter feed that '#IStandWithJonTron so I can slam dunk him into a dumpster' is on the same level as Tube saying he'll break your legs if you violate some of the forum's policies. It's not something to take too seriously.
The type of harassment received by Sarkeesian, Quinn, etc, is along the lines of, 'Here is your address. Here is your phone number. Here is where your children go to school. Now, here is the name and mailing address of the violent convict we have mailed / e-mailed this information to,' which is something to be taken much more seriously.
I cannot see it on his twitter feed.
He deleted them.
There are plenty of screenshots.
For all his big talk about outrage and not giving into offense he has actually deleted them.
It was discussed widely here in the Game Grumps thread.
Well, there was that issue of the guy on these boards getting doxxed by some of the more SJW posters and having pictures of his wang sent around to other posters about two years ago. Harassment has been used been used heavily for years and years and contributed to the buildup of this incident. There are people on both sides that hate each other with such intensity that I can't get my head around it, and I play techies in DOTA.
The "Two sides" narrative can't be ignored (Though it in no way legitimises any actions that have been taken).