Even if Holyrood could veto brexit, I'd strongly advise them not to. At least not immediately. Use it as a hard bargaining chip in the event of brexit - namely we won't veto it if you let us leave, or something to that effect.
Simply put, do not let Scotland be the one to fall on the grenade to stop brexit. It has to happen, and whoever does it will face repercussions for decades. What an independent Scotland would want is a somewhat friendly relationship with whatever is left of the UK.
OMG BBC JUST COMFIRMED THAT SCOTLAND CAN VETO BREXIT!
Really? I didn't get that impression from the text but they wouldn't make that kind of article if they weren't completely sure.
They didn't really. They said they could attempt to block it via MSPs not giving 'legislative consent'.
I'm not full informed about the legal issues but I believe Westminster can choose to ignore that if they really want to, though it will cause a huge fuss. But at this point, what doesn't?
Yeah it's a no lose for Nicola. If they accept the veto (and parliament may choose to do so since it might be extremely convenient for them), then great, since this will keep the SNP in power for the forseeable future. If not, then they've basically handed her an absolutely inarguable cause for a new independence referendum, plus they've also handed her an utterly certain overwhelming victory.
So either she wins for a decade or she she wins forever.
Even if Holyrood could veto brexit, I'd strongly advise them not to. At least not immediately. Use it as a hard bargaining chip in the event of brexit - namely we won't veto it if you let us leave, or something to that effect.
Simply put, do not let Scotland be the one to fall on the grenade to stop brexit. It has to happen, and whoever does it will face repercussions for decades. What an independent Scotland would want is a somewhat friendly relationship with whatever is left of the UK.
yeah if Scotland saves our miserable English arses they need to get something good out of it. Other than our undying love.
+8
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wiltingI had fun once and it was awfulRegistered Userregular
It's politically untenable for Scotland to veto the UK leaving, what it does do is give them a cards with regard to Indyref2 and talking directly to the EU about Scottish membership.
On a slightly different subject, and might've already been posted in the last twenty pages (I couldn't get on the forum yesterday) so apologies if this is going over old ground, but this interesting analysis from the bowels of the internet caught my eye.
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
How?
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
It's politically untenable for Scotland to veto the UK leaving, what it does do is give them a cards with regard to Indyref2 and talking directly to the EU about Scottish membership.
The calculus works like this: if it's untenable for scotland to stop england and wales leaving, then by the same token it's just as unacceptable for england to stop scotland staying in. 1 independance referendum please, lightly garnished with inevitable sweeping victory!
It's politically untenable for Scotland to veto the UK leaving, what it does do is give them a cards with regard to Indyref2 and talking directly to the EU about Scottish membership.
The calculus works like this: if it's untenable for scotland to stop england and wales leaving, then by the same token it's just as unacceptable for england to stop scotland staying in. 1 independance referendum please, lightly garnished with inevitable sweeping victory!
At this point I'm done making bold statements about political turn outs. I'll believe independence is happening when it happens.
OMG BBC JUST COMFIRMED THAT SCOTLAND CAN VETO BREXIT!
Really? I didn't get that impression from the text but they wouldn't make that kind of article if they weren't completely sure.
They didn't really. They said they could attempt to block it via MSPs not giving 'legislative consent'.
I'm not full informed about the legal issues but I believe Westminster can choose to ignore that if they really want to, though it will cause a huge fuss. But at this point, what doesn't?
On the other hand, a large majority of the parliamentary parties on both sides of the aisle are pro-EU. They may look at this as a great opportunity to get out of something they really didn't want to do anyway, whilst blaming the Scots.
OMG BBC JUST COMFIRMED THAT SCOTLAND CAN VETO BREXIT!
Really? I didn't get that impression from the text but they wouldn't make that kind of article if they weren't completely sure.
They didn't really. They said they could attempt to block it via MSPs not giving 'legislative consent'.
I'm not full informed about the legal issues but I believe Westminster can choose to ignore that if they really want to, though it will cause a huge fuss. But at this point, what doesn't?
On the other hand, a large majority of the parliamentary parties on both sides of the aisle are pro-EU. They may look at this as a great opportunity to get out of something they really didn't want to do anyway, whilst blaming the Scots.
Well I have to say that for a long while it looked like the US was going to achieve and maintain it's grip on the annual "Stupid and destructive political events" award with its customary languid ease. But, just as we've pounded the Wallabies 3-0 at home in the rugby, it looks we might well win another title in 2016.
Congressional sit-in? Come on America, that's not going to cut it and you know it.
+8
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Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
On a slightly different subject, and might've already been posted in the last twenty pages (I couldn't get on the forum yesterday) so apologies if this is going over old ground, but this interesting analysis from the bowels of the internet caught my eye.
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
How?
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
God this makes me rage. These fuckers were playing a game with our country with the sole intent of benefiting themselves, and now it's all gone tits up and they're not even competent enough to deal with it. FUCK POLITICIANS.
OMG BBC JUST COMFIRMED THAT SCOTLAND CAN VETO BREXIT!
Really? I didn't get that impression from the text but they wouldn't make that kind of article if they weren't completely sure.
They didn't really. They said they could attempt to block it via MSPs not giving 'legislative consent'.
I'm not full informed about the legal issues but I believe Westminster can choose to ignore that if they really want to, though it will cause a huge fuss. But at this point, what doesn't?
On the other hand, a large majority of the parliamentary parties on both sides of the aisle are pro-EU. They may look at this as a great opportunity to get out of something they really didn't want to do anyway, whilst blaming the Scots.
Oh, this absolutely gives parliament a get out of jail card*, if they want to take it. But as has been pointed out, it's not necessarily going to play well with the public, and personally I've long since stopped trying to second-guess Conservative decision-making.
Think that an independance referendum is the less messy choice, since it allows all parts to get what they want. That said, readed around that the EU wants all of the UK out before dealing with Scotland separately.
That said, is anybody actually going to know the resolution to this before the new PM takes office? It doesn't seem so.
OMG BBC JUST COMFIRMED THAT SCOTLAND CAN VETO BREXIT!
Really? I didn't get that impression from the text but they wouldn't make that kind of article if they weren't completely sure.
They didn't really. They said they could attempt to block it via MSPs not giving 'legislative consent'.
I'm not full informed about the legal issues but I believe Westminster can choose to ignore that if they really want to, though it will cause a huge fuss. But at this point, what doesn't?
On the other hand, a large majority of the parliamentary parties on both sides of the aisle are pro-EU. They may look at this as a great opportunity to get out of something they really didn't want to do anyway, whilst blaming the Scots.
Oh, this absolutely gives parliament a get out of jail card*, if they want to take it. But as has been pointed out, it's not necessarily going to play well with the public, and personally I've long since stopped trying to second-guess Conservative decision-making.
* not quite free
I grant you this is the case. On the other hand, the Scottish government has nothing to lose there - their constituents did provide a mandate for Remain. The Tories lose some, but the PP is aware enough that this is a bad idea that they may take the short term heat top avoid losing half the electorate for a generation. After all, who else are those on the Leave side going to vote for (and no, I don't think a UKIP majority is likely).
I'm not saying they'd do it, because, yeah, right now I have no idea what's going on. But it's an option, and that's one option more than I saw an hour ago.
OMG BBC JUST COMFIRMED THAT SCOTLAND CAN VETO BREXIT!
Really? I didn't get that impression from the text but they wouldn't make that kind of article if they weren't completely sure.
They didn't really. They said they could attempt to block it via MSPs not giving 'legislative consent'.
I'm not full informed about the legal issues but I believe Westminster can choose to ignore that if they really want to, though it will cause a huge fuss. But at this point, what doesn't?
On the other hand, a large majority of the parliamentary parties on both sides of the aisle are pro-EU. They may look at this as a great opportunity to get out of something they really didn't want to do anyway, whilst blaming the Scots.
Oh, this absolutely gives parliament a get out of jail card*, if they want to take it. But as has been pointed out, it's not necessarily going to play well with the public, and personally I've long since stopped trying to second-guess Conservative decision-making.
* not quite free
It's so complicated. I wish the MP's sitting in the houses of parliament had the strength to fall on their swords for us, but either out of self preservation, or perhaps just the knowledge if they sacrifice themselves it could be worthless as they have no control over what the next person in their office will do, they won't do it.
The question that keeps coming up is "how didn't anyone think of this before?"
What with scottish independance just recently having been up for vote how come the brexit vote wasn't set up to require a majority in all the countries to pass?
As it is a leave victory leading to a broken up UK seems to be something nobody wanted.
OMG BBC JUST COMFIRMED THAT SCOTLAND CAN VETO BREXIT!
Really? I didn't get that impression from the text but they wouldn't make that kind of article if they weren't completely sure.
They didn't really. They said they could attempt to block it via MSPs not giving 'legislative consent'.
I'm not full informed about the legal issues but I believe Westminster can choose to ignore that if they really want to, though it will cause a huge fuss. But at this point, what doesn't?
On the other hand, a large majority of the parliamentary parties on both sides of the aisle are pro-EU. They may look at this as a great opportunity to get out of something they really didn't want to do anyway, whilst blaming the Scots.
Oh, this absolutely gives parliament a get out of jail card*, if they want to take it. But as has been pointed out, it's not necessarily going to play well with the public, and personally I've long since stopped trying to second-guess Conservative decision-making.
* not quite free
It's so complicated. I wish the MP's sitting in the houses of parliament had the strength to fall on their swords for us, but either out of self preservation, or perhaps just the knowledge if they sacrifice themselves it could be worthless as they have no control over what the next person in their office will do, they won't do it.
I genuinely think this is why they may take an opportunity to blame someone, anyone else.
That and given the margin of victory in the referendum was so small, a "Sorry, we couldn't do it" vote is by no means a sure loss of a parliamentary seat, if you see what I mean.
Shadow cabinet all busy resigning right now, by the way.
As much as I'm hoping this means Corbyn is done I'm still stuck in full blown cynicism mode. Odds are he'll make it through this with an even worse shadow cabinet of bottom of the barrel scrapings of people willing to still work with him and the Labour party will be more ineffectual as ever as they completely break down and refuse to work with him.
Shadow cabinet all busy resigning right now, by the way.
As much as I'm hoping this means Corbyn is done I'm still stuck in full blown cynicism mode. Odds are he'll make it through this with an even worse shadow cabinet of bottom of the barrel scrapings of people willing to still work with him and the Labour party will be more ineffectual as ever as they completely break down and refuse to work with him.
It's going to be interesting to see who he figures he can appoint as Shadow Scottish Secretary given the only labour MP north of the border (Ian Murray) just quit.
I'm done with Corbyn. To be honest, I'm kind of done with Labour. I love my MP, Lucy Powell, but aside from her the love is gone.
It's a terrible shame when this happens, as an MP, my old one in Aberdeen (Robert Smith) was a good one, he voted exactly as I myself would have in every situation, but the Lib Dems became so toxic. It wasn't his fault but he was shackled to a sinking ship.
The question that keeps coming up is "how didn't anyone think of this before?"
What with scottish independance just recently having been up for vote how come the brexit vote wasn't set up to require a majority in all the countries to pass?
As it is a leave victory leading to a broken up UK seems to be something nobody wanted.
I can only think it must be a shitload of smug overconfidence. Scotland indyref lost (narrowly), therefore OBVIOUSLY EU ref would lose. It seems incredible nobody planned for a win, but it's also kind of in-keeping with the short term election-oriented thinking that's guided the Conservatives the whole time under Cameron.
I'm done with Corbyn. To be honest, I'm kind of done with Labour. I love my MP, Lucy Powell, but aside from her the love is gone.
It's a terrible shame when this happens, as an MP, my old one in Aberdeen (Robert Smith) was a good one, he voted exactly as I myself would have in every situation, but the Lib Dems became so toxic. It wasn't his fault but he was shackled to a sinking ship.
Yeah I'm torn about the LibDems and voting for them again. I'm from Sheffield, the general election where Nick Clegg betrayed us all after we elected him was the first one I was able to vote in. I'm very torn.
I'm done with Corbyn. To be honest, I'm kind of done with Labour. I love my MP, Lucy Powell, but aside from her the love is gone.
It's a pity that he didn't get time to do his job (the one we needed him to do, not the one he tried to do). In theory, Labour had until the next GE to sort itself out.
+3
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
It seems incredible nobody planned for a win, but it's also kind of in-keeping with the short term election-oriented thinking that's guided the Conservatives the whole time under Cameron.
Each camp thought the other would be the one taking the reins in the event of a Leave. :hydra:
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Might make one forget the American Presidential election shit show easily
Much much better than the stick still. Those next days will be so decisive for the European future of the next decades or more, it's scary
Simply put, do not let Scotland be the one to fall on the grenade to stop brexit. It has to happen, and whoever does it will face repercussions for decades. What an independent Scotland would want is a somewhat friendly relationship with whatever is left of the UK.
Yeah it's a no lose for Nicola. If they accept the veto (and parliament may choose to do so since it might be extremely convenient for them), then great, since this will keep the SNP in power for the forseeable future. If not, then they've basically handed her an absolutely inarguable cause for a new independence referendum, plus they've also handed her an utterly certain overwhelming victory.
So either she wins for a decade or she she wins forever.
I think you mean "K"
Steam | XBL
We can teach them how to make good black pudding!
</yorkshire>
uh YES of COURSE I know how to make that! Ah ha...ha of course I do...
The Irish counter with white pudding. </omnomnom>
Steam | XBL
The calculus works like this: if it's untenable for scotland to stop england and wales leaving, then by the same token it's just as unacceptable for england to stop scotland staying in. 1 independance referendum please, lightly garnished with inevitable sweeping victory!
I dunno, I'm pretty sold at "undying love".
Well ireland will owe Scotland a favour as well.
So pudding for all!
At this point I'm done making bold statements about political turn outs. I'll believe independence is happening when it happens.
On the other hand, a large majority of the parliamentary parties on both sides of the aisle are pro-EU. They may look at this as a great opportunity to get out of something they really didn't want to do anyway, whilst blaming the Scots.
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The hero we need, not the hero we deserve
A High Land
Congressional sit-in? Come on America, that's not going to cut it and you know it.
God this makes me rage. These fuckers were playing a game with our country with the sole intent of benefiting themselves, and now it's all gone tits up and they're not even competent enough to deal with it. FUCK POLITICIANS.
Oh, this absolutely gives parliament a get out of jail card*, if they want to take it. But as has been pointed out, it's not necessarily going to play well with the public, and personally I've long since stopped trying to second-guess Conservative decision-making.
* not quite free
That said, is anybody actually going to know the resolution to this before the new PM takes office? It doesn't seem so.
I grant you this is the case. On the other hand, the Scottish government has nothing to lose there - their constituents did provide a mandate for Remain. The Tories lose some, but the PP is aware enough that this is a bad idea that they may take the short term heat top avoid losing half the electorate for a generation. After all, who else are those on the Leave side going to vote for (and no, I don't think a UKIP majority is likely).
I'm not saying they'd do it, because, yeah, right now I have no idea what's going on. But it's an option, and that's one option more than I saw an hour ago.
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SF&F Reviews blog
It's so complicated. I wish the MP's sitting in the houses of parliament had the strength to fall on their swords for us, but either out of self preservation, or perhaps just the knowledge if they sacrifice themselves it could be worthless as they have no control over what the next person in their office will do, they won't do it.
What with scottish independance just recently having been up for vote how come the brexit vote wasn't set up to require a majority in all the countries to pass?
As it is a leave victory leading to a broken up UK seems to be something nobody wanted.
I genuinely think this is why they may take an opportunity to blame someone, anyone else.
That and given the margin of victory in the referendum was so small, a "Sorry, we couldn't do it" vote is by no means a sure loss of a parliamentary seat, if you see what I mean.
Goodreads
SF&F Reviews blog
EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
As much as I'm hoping this means Corbyn is done I'm still stuck in full blown cynicism mode. Odds are he'll make it through this with an even worse shadow cabinet of bottom of the barrel scrapings of people willing to still work with him and the Labour party will be more ineffectual as ever as they completely break down and refuse to work with him.
Rumoured foreign secretary: Diane Abbott.
EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
It's going to be interesting to see who he figures he can appoint as Shadow Scottish Secretary given the only labour MP north of the border (Ian Murray) just quit.
It's a terrible shame when this happens, as an MP, my old one in Aberdeen (Robert Smith) was a good one, he voted exactly as I myself would have in every situation, but the Lib Dems became so toxic. It wasn't his fault but he was shackled to a sinking ship.
I can only think it must be a shitload of smug overconfidence. Scotland indyref lost (narrowly), therefore OBVIOUSLY EU ref would lose. It seems incredible nobody planned for a win, but it's also kind of in-keeping with the short term election-oriented thinking that's guided the Conservatives the whole time under Cameron.
Yeah I'm torn about the LibDems and voting for them again. I'm from Sheffield, the general election where Nick Clegg betrayed us all after we elected him was the first one I was able to vote in. I'm very torn.
It's a pity that he didn't get time to do his job (the one we needed him to do, not the one he tried to do). In theory, Labour had until the next GE to sort itself out.