AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
It seems like, traditionally, Westerns glorify characters who are simply bad people, or at the very least are involved in conflicts presented far more solipsistically than a more realistic portrayal would allow. Antagonists in Westerns are often the blackest of blackhearted mustache-twirlers, so it makes our murdering/misogynist/misanthropic protagonist seem like the morally-appropriate counter, and conflicts are almost always resolved with gratuitous displays of violence.
In short, many Westerns seem like right-wing power fantasies, with characters often motivated by patriarchal cliches, and that makes me really, really uncomfortable to lionize a large volume of those works.
It's the subversive westerns I tend to go for, especially ones like The Proposition or Little Big Man, where the actual ramifications and implications of life in those dynamics is shown.
It seems like, traditionally, Westerns glorify characters who are simply bad people, or at the very least are involved in conflicts presented far more solipsistically than a more realistic portrayal would allow. Antagonists in Westerns are often the blackest of blackhearted mustache-twirlers, so it makes our murdering/misogynist/misanthropic protagonist seem like the morally-appropriate counter, and conflicts are almost always resolved with gratuitous displays of violence.
In short, many Westerns seem like right-wing power fantasies, with characters often motivated by patriarchal cliches, and that makes me really, really uncomfortable to lionize a large volume of those works.
It's the subversive westerns I tend to go for, especially ones like The Proposition or Little Big Man, where the actual ramifications and implications of life in those dynamics is shown.
I have a completely untested theory that you can tell a progressive Western from a regressive one by whether any of the horses have names.
We calling The Revenant a western? Cause if so it's easily one of my favorite westerns. No Country still takes the cake though, that is a top-10 all time/all genre for me.
+1
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
westerns are awesome good guys being good bad guys being bad the only thing progressive should be the amount of bullets passing through the baddies, and that you lean forward when you draw.
+3
ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
It seems like, traditionally, Westerns glorify characters who are simply bad people, or at the very least are involved in conflicts presented far more solipsistically than a more realistic portrayal would allow. Antagonists in Westerns are often the blackest of blackhearted mustache-twirlers, so it makes our murdering/misogynist/misanthropic protagonist seem like the morally-appropriate counter, and conflicts are almost always resolved with gratuitous displays of violence.
In short, many Westerns seem like right-wing power fantasies, with characters often motivated by patriarchal cliches, and that makes me really, really uncomfortable to lionize a large volume of those works.
It's the subversive westerns I tend to go for, especially ones like The Proposition or Little Big Man, where the actual ramifications and implications of life in those dynamics is shown.
Plenty of the heroes are designed as anti heroes who you are not supposed to think are 'good guys' really. Just that they're the best alternative to the villains that can be found.
Glorifications seem to generally lean toward bravery in the face of stacked odds and standing up for the helpless.
There's definitely the power fantasy aspect, but to me it always seemed like the fantasy of evening the odds. That the little guy, the lone hero can stand up to the hordes of self obsessed assholes and keep them from destroying everyone who's just trying to live a peaceful life.
You can see why non misogynistic/misanthropic viewers might still really identify with stories like that even today.
It seems like, traditionally, Westerns glorify characters who are simply bad people, or at the very least are involved in conflicts presented far more solipsistically than a more realistic portrayal would allow. Antagonists in Westerns are often the blackest of blackhearted mustache-twirlers, so it makes our murdering/misogynist/misanthropic protagonist seem like the morally-appropriate counter, and conflicts are almost always resolved with gratuitous displays of violence.
In short, many Westerns seem like right-wing power fantasies, with characters often motivated by patriarchal cliches, and that makes me really, really uncomfortable to lionize a large volume of those works.
It's the subversive westerns I tend to go for, especially ones like The Proposition or Little Big Man, where the actual ramifications and implications of life in those dynamics is shown.
Plenty of the heroes are designed as anti heroes who you are not supposed to think are 'good guys' really. Just that they're the best alternative to the villains that can be found.
Glorifications seem to generally lean toward bravery in the face of stacked odds and standing up for the helpless.
There's definitely the power fantasy aspect, but to me it always seemed like the fantasy of evening the odds. That the little guy, the lone hero can stand up to the hordes of self obsessed assholes and keep them from destroying everyone who's just trying to live a peaceful life.
You can see why non misogynistic/misanthropic viewers might still really identify with stories like that even today.
Many of the anti-heroes are well aware by the end of the film genre they may have fought for what was right, but they're still terrible people. They die in redemption or move on and never enjoy the resolution of conflict.
It seems like, traditionally, Westerns glorify characters who are simply bad people, or at the very least are involved in conflicts presented far more solipsistically than a more realistic portrayal would allow. Antagonists in Westerns are often the blackest of blackhearted mustache-twirlers, so it makes our murdering/misogynist/misanthropic protagonist seem like the morally-appropriate counter, and conflicts are almost always resolved with gratuitous displays of violence.
In short, many Westerns seem like right-wing power fantasies, with characters often motivated by patriarchal cliches, and that makes me really, really uncomfortable to lionize a large volume of those works.
It's the subversive westerns I tend to go for, especially ones like The Proposition or Little Big Man, where the actual ramifications and implications of life in those dynamics is shown.
I have a completely untested theory that you can tell a progressive Western from a regressive one by whether any of the horses have names.
What does that say about:
A Man Called Horse
?
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
I really love westerns, but it occurs to me that the genre has been really crap for women. The only two westerns I can think of that are female centric are Banditas and Bad Girls, both of which are pretty lame. True Grit has a plucky talented girl, but she spends all her time with men and Rooster Cogburn pretty much steals the show. Beyond that the female characters pretty much always either damsels or sex objects. I realize this isn't at all unique to westerns, but it seems exceptionally bad within the genre.
Am I missing any notable ones that break this mold?
I really love westerns, but it occurs to me that the genre has been really crap for women. The only two westerns I can think of that are female centric are Banditas and Bad Girls, both of which are pretty lame. True Grit has a plucky talented girl, but she spends all her time with men and Rooster Cogburn pretty much steals the show. Beyond that the female characters pretty much always either damsels or sex objects. I realize this isn't at all unique to westerns, but it seems exceptionally bad within the genre.
Am I missing any notable ones that break this mold?
The Quick and the Death.
Steam/Origin: davydizzy
+2
BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
edited December 2016
The Quick and the Dead.
Sharon Stone looking to take down a border town kingpin in Gene Hackman to get revenge for the death of her US Marshall father. And she looks to do so in a gunfight.
It also has Leo and Russell Crowe doing some nice supporting turns, with Sam Raimi directing.
And holy shit, it's 21 years old now!
BlackDragon480 on
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
+11
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
I really love westerns, but it occurs to me that the genre has been really crap for women. The only two westerns I can think of that are female centric are Banditas and Bad Girls, both of which are pretty lame. True Grit has a plucky talented girl, but she spends all her time with men and Rooster Cogburn pretty much steals the show. Beyond that the female characters pretty much always either damsels or sex objects. I realize this isn't at all unique to westerns, but it seems exceptionally bad within the genre.
Am I missing any notable ones that break this mold?
Meek's Cutoff.
+2
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Women being poorly shown in westerns is just the mirror of men being poorly shown in romance movies.
This is where Dr. Quinn tried to mend fences by giving us all open hearts neckalces.
Haley Bennett was arguably the most important character in the new Magnificent Seven. But goddamn the cleavage was distracting. One of the characters mistook her for a prostitute, and honestly some of the brothel girls were more modest.
0
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Haley Bennett was arguably the most important character in the new Magnificent Seven. But goddamn the cleavage was distracting. One of the characters mistook her for a prostitute, and honestly some of the brothel girls were more modest.
yes, but it was a pretty typical patriarchal archetype the gave her motivation
much like Unforgiven
it's not, "Justice needs doing," it's, "We gotta help them poor women"
-Seven Men From Now
-Winchester '73
-The Wild Bunch
-Canyon Passage
-Unforgiven
Honorable mentions:
-Track of the Cat
-Ride Lonesome
-Stagecoach
-My Darling Clementine
-The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
-Fort Apache
-The Bend of the River
-Silver Lode
-Stars in My Crown
-Wichita
-The Naked Spur
-The Ox-Bow Incident
-Lemonade Joe
-The Shooting
-Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid
-The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada
One aspect of westerns I feel is missing from a lot of modern takes on them is polite society intruding on their frontier living and feeling like the lawmen have no place in the new version of that society.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
If I can talk about non-Westerns for a minute, here was me during the new Pete's Dragon:
(first part of the film) Uh, well, I can see what they're going for, but isn't there an unaddressed ambivalence here between the 'call of the wild' where you get to be a free boy with no shirt, no shoes, no parents, and nobody to tell you to stop riding that dragon you don't know where it's been and, you know, the fact that kids are better off civilized and given love and food and health care and clothing than they are left feral? Wait, is that true? I knew I should have watched The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser already. Maybe I'm just too old for this movie. It's a kid's film, right? Disney! You've got the cliche environmentalist themes and here's Robert Redford talking about faith and maybe this just isn't FOR me, in the Twisp & Catsby way. Maybe I'm just a soulless adult whose sense of wonder has shriveled and decayed like a raisin in the inferno of responsibility and jobs and...
(45 minutes in) Oh, hey, the stakes are clear for the first time. Suddenly my heart is three sizes too big. What a strange coincidence.
+2
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I really love westerns, but it occurs to me that the genre has been really crap for women. The only two westerns I can think of that are female centric are Banditas and Bad Girls, both of which are pretty lame. True Grit has a plucky talented girl, but she spends all her time with men and Rooster Cogburn pretty much steals the show. Beyond that the female characters pretty much always either damsels or sex objects. I realize this isn't at all unique to westerns, but it seems exceptionally bad within the genre.
Am I missing any notable ones that break this mold?
The protagonist in "Once Upon a Time" is female. Might consider her a damsel but sure as shit no one rescues her. Will try to get to the other stuff from Astereth later
Goumindong on
0
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
It seems like, traditionally, Westerns glorify characters who are simply bad people, or at the very least are involved in conflicts presented far more solipsistically than a more realistic portrayal would allow. Antagonists in Westerns are often the blackest of blackhearted mustache-twirlers, so it makes our murdering/misogynist/misanthropic protagonist seem like the morally-appropriate counter, and conflicts are almost always resolved with gratuitous displays of violence.
In short, many Westerns seem like right-wing power fantasies, with characters often motivated by patriarchal cliches, and that makes me really, really uncomfortable to lionize a large volume of those works.
It's the subversive westerns I tend to go for, especially ones like The Proposition or Little Big Man, where the actual ramifications and implications of life in those dynamics is shown.
So this is where historical and political context tends to come in to play. Generally in the post-war WWII Westerns you start seeing a shift to heroes who aren't necessary bad but very much damaged. For writers and directors, there were easily parallels between the horrors of WWII and the Civil War, along with the optimism of a chance to start over with the settling for the frontier and the idea of a post war modern world. The Western for some directors and writers starts becoming a way to handle the trauma of the war and trying to reintegrate into peacetime.
You start to see the thematic element of being trapped in a cycle of violence. The idea that no matter what the protagonist tries to do, they will always be pulled back in. But you also see protagonists that tend to at least try to do something positive. The idea being given to the audience that while the demons can't be fixed, they either have, or could have done something with positive meaning.
In the post Fordian Western is also a reflection of it's time. The Spaghetti Western comes out of a part the major upheaval of Italy in the 60's. You have the conflict between the Italian Left and the Church. A conflict between north and south over economic issues. The First Mafia War. Add to that the Italian Directors generally being more openly political, and you see a much stronger shift of the protagonist into Anti-Hero territory combined with a tendency towards deconstructing Ford.
The transitional American Westerns of the 60's and 70's tend to be much more direct in the commendation of the issues of their main characters. It would be hard to make a reading of Hud or The Misfits as belief that the actions of the protagonists should be followed. Or anything but condemned. They are all pretty clearly broken or damaged people. Even The Searchers which is the end of the Fordian Western makes it clear that Ethan isn't a good person. That he has gone beyond redemption. And The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance drives that point home with:
"This is the West, sir, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
I really love westerns, but it occurs to me that the genre has been really crap for women. The only two westerns I can think of that are female centric are Banditas and Bad Girls, both of which are pretty lame. True Grit has a plucky talented girl, but she spends all her time with men and Rooster Cogburn pretty much steals the show. Beyond that the female characters pretty much always either damsels or sex objects. I realize this isn't at all unique to westerns, but it seems exceptionally bad within the genre.
Am I missing any notable ones that break this mold?
Cat Ballou
Johnny Guitar
Hannie Caulder
The Furies
Annie Get Your Gun
The Belle Starr Story
There are a bunch of really terrible movies about Calamity Jane that are just such crap I left them off.
Bolt is... surprisingly good? Travolta's voice acting is hit or miss, and the story is fairly paint by numbers, but I laughed plenty and the animation almost entirely holds up.
I did not expect that at all.
+1
BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
All this talk of Three Amigos makes me want to demand @ElJeffe bring back the El Guapo avatar... or else I'll shoot the Invisible Swordsman.
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
Posts
In short, many Westerns seem like right-wing power fantasies, with characters often motivated by patriarchal cliches, and that makes me really, really uncomfortable to lionize a large volume of those works.
It's the subversive westerns I tend to go for, especially ones like The Proposition or Little Big Man, where the actual ramifications and implications of life in those dynamics is shown.
The only ones I can remember seeing are The Magnificent Seven, Tombstone, and True Grit.
So uh...
1. Tombstone
2. The Magnificent Seven
3. True Grit
I have a completely untested theory that you can tell a progressive Western from a regressive one by whether any of the horses have names.
Plenty of the heroes are designed as anti heroes who you are not supposed to think are 'good guys' really. Just that they're the best alternative to the villains that can be found.
Glorifications seem to generally lean toward bravery in the face of stacked odds and standing up for the helpless.
There's definitely the power fantasy aspect, but to me it always seemed like the fantasy of evening the odds. That the little guy, the lone hero can stand up to the hordes of self obsessed assholes and keep them from destroying everyone who's just trying to live a peaceful life.
You can see why non misogynistic/misanthropic viewers might still really identify with stories like that even today.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
Unforgiven
Hateful 8
McCabe and Mrs. Miller
The Proposition
I'd also like to give an honorary spot to Justified, even if this is the movies thread and Kentucky is on the wrong side of the Mississippi.
Unforgiven
Tombstone
The Hateful Eight
The Quick and The Dead
*edit I totally forgot about The Proposition*
Also Rango
Many of the anti-heroes are well aware by the end of the film genre they may have fought for what was right, but they're still terrible people. They die in redemption or move on and never enjoy the resolution of conflict.
What does that say about:
A Man Called Horse
?
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Am I missing any notable ones that break this mold?
The Quick and the Death.
Sharon Stone looking to take down a border town kingpin in Gene Hackman to get revenge for the death of her US Marshall father. And she looks to do so in a gunfight.
It also has Leo and Russell Crowe doing some nice supporting turns, with Sam Raimi directing.
And holy shit, it's 21 years old now!
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Meek's Cutoff.
This is where Dr. Quinn tried to mend fences by giving us all open hearts neckalces.
yes, but it was a pretty typical patriarchal archetype the gave her motivation
much like Unforgiven
it's not, "Justice needs doing," it's, "We gotta help them poor women"
-Winchester '73
-The Wild Bunch
-Canyon Passage
-Unforgiven
Honorable mentions:
-Track of the Cat
-Ride Lonesome
-Stagecoach
-My Darling Clementine
-The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
-Fort Apache
-The Bend of the River
-Silver Lode
-Stars in My Crown
-Wichita
-The Naked Spur
-The Ox-Bow Incident
-Lemonade Joe
-The Shooting
-Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid
-The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada
The double butt jewelry?
pleasepaypreacher.net
pleasepaypreacher.net
pleasepaypreacher.net
Three Amigos
Unforgiven
Bone Tomahawk
The Sacketts
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
(first part of the film)
Uh, well, I can see what they're going for, but isn't there an unaddressed ambivalence here between the 'call of the wild' where you get to be a free boy with no shirt, no shoes, no parents, and nobody to tell you to stop riding that dragon you don't know where it's been and, you know, the fact that kids are better off civilized and given love and food and health care and clothing than they are left feral? Wait, is that true? I knew I should have watched The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser already. Maybe I'm just too old for this movie. It's a kid's film, right? Disney! You've got the cliche environmentalist themes and here's Robert Redford talking about faith and maybe this just isn't FOR me, in the Twisp & Catsby way. Maybe I'm just a soulless adult whose sense of wonder has shriveled and decayed like a raisin in the inferno of responsibility and jobs and...
(45 minutes in)
Oh, hey, the stakes are clear for the first time. Suddenly my heart is three sizes too big. What a strange coincidence.
The protagonist in "Once Upon a Time" is female. Might consider her a damsel but sure as shit no one rescues her. Will try to get to the other stuff from Astereth later
So this is where historical and political context tends to come in to play. Generally in the post-war WWII Westerns you start seeing a shift to heroes who aren't necessary bad but very much damaged. For writers and directors, there were easily parallels between the horrors of WWII and the Civil War, along with the optimism of a chance to start over with the settling for the frontier and the idea of a post war modern world. The Western for some directors and writers starts becoming a way to handle the trauma of the war and trying to reintegrate into peacetime.
You start to see the thematic element of being trapped in a cycle of violence. The idea that no matter what the protagonist tries to do, they will always be pulled back in. But you also see protagonists that tend to at least try to do something positive. The idea being given to the audience that while the demons can't be fixed, they either have, or could have done something with positive meaning.
In the post Fordian Western is also a reflection of it's time. The Spaghetti Western comes out of a part the major upheaval of Italy in the 60's. You have the conflict between the Italian Left and the Church. A conflict between north and south over economic issues. The First Mafia War. Add to that the Italian Directors generally being more openly political, and you see a much stronger shift of the protagonist into Anti-Hero territory combined with a tendency towards deconstructing Ford.
The transitional American Westerns of the 60's and 70's tend to be much more direct in the commendation of the issues of their main characters. It would be hard to make a reading of Hud or The Misfits as belief that the actions of the protagonists should be followed. Or anything but condemned. They are all pretty clearly broken or damaged people. Even The Searchers which is the end of the Fordian Western makes it clear that Ethan isn't a good person. That he has gone beyond redemption. And The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance drives that point home with:
Men are given more to do in romance movies, though.
Cat Ballou
Johnny Guitar
Hannie Caulder
The Furies
Annie Get Your Gun
The Belle Starr Story
There are a bunch of really terrible movies about Calamity Jane that are just such crap I left them off.
It's a mail plane! See the little balls?
On the lips would be fine!
(I love Three Amigos)
Bolt is... surprisingly good? Travolta's voice acting is hit or miss, and the story is fairly paint by numbers, but I laughed plenty and the animation almost entirely holds up.
I did not expect that at all.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Has it been mentioned? Because holy fuck good times.
Also, Dead Man because it was so pulpy. The scenes with Iggy Pop were awesome.
ARE YOU WILLIAM BLAKE?!
Yes I am. Do you know my poetry?
*gunshot*
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov