I'm in the other thread to, and I'm just using it for the purposes of nitpicking. But yeah, I've watched the entirety of Iron Fist, and I still say it's better than 90% of syndicated TV, and better than half of Netflix original series. But what I CAN say with Iron Fist is that it's on the lower end of quality for these shows. It's rushed, and it shows in the end result. It's a good proof of concept, but it's not the Hong Kong action or Wuxia action people really WANTED the show to be.
that would have been the obvious choice, but I'd settle for it at least trying to be something. it manages to balance a bunch of shit (barely) but it never commits to anything.
I am probably going to love Iron Fist and it's because I have literally no taste or discernment. Let me see if I can give y'all some context with which to evaluate my opinions:
Iron Man: Loved it
Thor: Loved it
Cap 1: Loved it
Avengers: Loved it
Cap 2: Loved it
Iron man 2: Loved it
Iron man 3: Loved it
GotG: Loved it
Avengers 2: Loved it
Civil war: Loved it
ant man: Loved it
AoS: Loved it from the premier
DD s1: Loved it
Luke Cage: Loved it
Spool, by and large i totally agree with you. I loved or strongly liked everything MCU had done up until this point.
However, i HOPE you like it. I wish i could I really really wish i could.
That's cause the last page has been the same like 3 people complaining.
Honestly, the more I watch the show the less about half the complaints make sense.
Iron Fist is probably the least good of the MCU Netflix shows, but it's not by much.
The last page alone I count 14 different posters all with very similar criticisms, not all having the same discussion (there's even a small side discussion about whether or not "Bushido Code" is indicative of something larger, and the guy who is on the opposing side for that doesn't like the show anymore than everyone else - he just thinks it's nitpicking). And 2 who are lukewarm at best. And then you bitching about the thread title. =P
So yeah, "same like 3 people" sure. Or it's just that there are a lot of different people who are seeing very similar things. I myself have only actively participated in the last 3 pages or so, after I finished watching everything. Skimming 5+ pages before that has an entirely different group of people who are pointing out very similar issues in real-time (i.e., as they are watching each episode).
Could have sworn I read in one of your posts you claimed you wouldn't pile on... oh, here it is.
Finally finished this. Marvel really dropped the ball on this series. I'm not going to pile on given I just did some quick skimming and it looks like nearly every single review touches upon the same issues I had with it. This show just failed on several fundamental levels. And what's worse is that you could see the seeds of some really great stuff there, but they fucked up the execution and the landing so much that it just adds to the frustration.
If the same person who made this show is also making the Defenders, I have serious qualms about how that team-up is going to turn out. Joss Whedon can tell you how much harder it is to juggle so many competing characters and storylines. I have no faith that someone who fucked up such a basic story would be able to do a remotely competent job on something about 7 times more difficult.
Iquisitor, you remain a funny guy.
My point about "piling on" was a note to myself not to write up a thesis paper on how shitty the show was right then and there. Not sure what else you're getting at. shryke went out of his way in this thread to dismiss the opinions of literally dozens of other people who aren't even here to defend themselves because he disagreed with them. I was pointing out facts.
It's totally fine to think that Iron Fist was great. Opinions are subjective like that. But if you want to have a discussion on something, you engage with the subject at hand. And if you can't do that, then you agree to disagree and walk away. Not whatever the fuck this is.
Ha! Between all your posts deriding Iron Fist from every possible angle, you have written at least an essay, if not a thesis paper.
Well, Luke Cage didn't hold on to the title of Most Divisive MCU Show for long, huh? So, I'll agree that Shryke was stretching it a bit there. You're right, opinions, subjectivity and all that, you even had some good points here and there but denying your own role in "same like 3 people" is laughable. Come on man, your post history is, like, right there. You expressed yourself pretty clearly across a couple of threads, you loved to hate watch this show.
Its ok dude, its funny, hate watching usually is. Now I am going to go watch some more MST3K, seems fitting after watching MCU stuff and reading these threads
Imagine if they had just flipped the villain order in Luke Cage.
Everyone think's it's Diamondback as the big bad for the first half, til he gets chumped and it was Cottonmouth pulling the strings the whole time, could even keep in the same death for Cottonmouth too kinda. But then we would have gotten more episodes with Mahershala Ali. And could have maybe ditched both the brother crap AND the bullet crap!
I really, really liked Diamondback. I enjoyed his unhinged bullshit. I liked the connection to Luke. I appreciated that this was another kingpin who wasn't just in charge because money, but that could absolutely murder a room full of dudes himself. I didn't even mind the magic bullets, because that's already the kind of thing that already exists in the MCU, which actually tangibly grounds the show there.
And I believe Diamondback has a place in the story as a personified metaphor, just as all the leads do.
The biggest flaw, IMO, was not showing him earlier. Those phone conversations? Should have shown him then. He should be already present before Cottonmouth bites it, but not have come into contact with Luke. Then, when he finds out that Luke Cage is Carl Lucas, he just comes unglued.
That's cause the last page has been the same like 3 people complaining.
Honestly, the more I watch the show the less about half the complaints make sense.
Iron Fist is probably the least good of the MCU Netflix shows, but it's not by much.
The last page alone I count 14 different posters all with very similar criticisms, not all having the same discussion (there's even a small side discussion about whether or not "Bushido Code" is indicative of something larger, and the guy who is on the opposing side for that doesn't like the show anymore than everyone else - he just thinks it's nitpicking). And 2 who are lukewarm at best. And then you bitching about the thread title. =P
So yeah, "same like 3 people" sure. Or it's just that there are a lot of different people who are seeing very similar things. I myself have only actively participated in the last 3 pages or so, after I finished watching everything. Skimming 5+ pages before that has an entirely different group of people who are pointing out very similar issues in real-time (i.e., as they are watching each episode).
Could have sworn I read in one of your posts you claimed you wouldn't pile on... oh, here it is.
Finally finished this. Marvel really dropped the ball on this series. I'm not going to pile on given I just did some quick skimming and it looks like nearly every single review touches upon the same issues I had with it. This show just failed on several fundamental levels. And what's worse is that you could see the seeds of some really great stuff there, but they fucked up the execution and the landing so much that it just adds to the frustration.
If the same person who made this show is also making the Defenders, I have serious qualms about how that team-up is going to turn out. Joss Whedon can tell you how much harder it is to juggle so many competing characters and storylines. I have no faith that someone who fucked up such a basic story would be able to do a remotely competent job on something about 7 times more difficult.
Iquisitor, you remain a funny guy.
My point about "piling on" was a note to myself not to write up a thesis paper on how shitty the show was right then and there. Not sure what else you're getting at. shryke went out of his way in this thread to dismiss the opinions of literally dozens of other people who aren't even here to defend themselves because he disagreed with them. I was pointing out facts.
It's totally fine to think that Iron Fist was great. Opinions are subjective like that. But if you want to have a discussion on something, you engage with the subject at hand. And if you can't do that, then you agree to disagree and walk away. Not whatever the fuck this is.
Ha! Between all your posts deriding Iron Fist from every possible angle, you have written at least an essay, if not a thesis paper.
Well, Luke Cage didn't hold on to the title of Most Divisive MCU Show for long, huh? So, I'll agree that Shryke was stretching it a bit there. You're right, opinions, subjectivity and all that, you even had some good points here and there but denying your own role in "same like 3 people" is laughable. Come on man, your post history is, like, right there. You expressed yourself pretty clearly across a couple of threads, you loved to hate watch this show.
Its ok dude, its funny, hate watching usually is. Now I am going to go watch some more MST3K, seems fitting after watching MCU stuff and reading these threads
What is this?
+1
Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
I think Shades was the best and a very interesting bad guy. I liked that he never lost his cool, and always appealed to people in a rational sense. I got the impression that what he said was true, he wanted whoever he was "helping" to succeed. He was reasonable in his demands and accepted reasonable excuses provided they were something that his agenda could recover from. AND he always advocated the cautious path/path of least resistance.
His history seemed superfluous and contrary to that chatacterisation though
I really, really liked Diamondback. I enjoyed his unhinged bullshit. I liked the connection to Luke. I appreciated that this was another kingpin who wasn't just in charge because money, but that could absolutely murder a room full of dudes himself. I didn't even mind the magic bullets, because that's already the kind of thing that already exists in the MCU, which actually tangibly grounds the show there.
And I believe Diamondback has a place in the story as a personified metaphor, just as all the leads do.
The biggest flaw, IMO, was not showing him earlier. Those phone conversations? Should have shown him then. He should be already present before Cottonmouth bites it, but not have come into contact with Luke. Then, when he finds out that Luke Cage is Carl Lucas, he just comes unglued.
They needed an episode to flesh out Diamondback's history like Daredevil did with Fisk.
+6
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I really, really liked Diamondback. I enjoyed his unhinged bullshit. I liked the connection to Luke. I appreciated that this was another kingpin who wasn't just in charge because money, but that could absolutely murder a room full of dudes himself. I didn't even mind the magic bullets, because that's already the kind of thing that already exists in the MCU, which actually tangibly grounds the show there.
And I believe Diamondback has a place in the story as a personified metaphor, just as all the leads do.
The biggest flaw, IMO, was not showing him earlier. Those phone conversations? Should have shown him then. He should be already present before Cottonmouth bites it, but not have come into contact with Luke. Then, when he finds out that Luke Cage is Carl Lucas, he just comes unglued.
They needed an episode to flesh out Diamondback's history like Daredevil did with Fisk.
Well, they kind of did. It just fell flat.
They probably shouldn't have had him in the story to begin with. Or they could've kept him in the shadows and given Luke a generic big bad minion to fight instead.
It felt too much like they were trying to re-make Fisk, and that's a tall order to live up to. Better off not even trying than bringing in a last-minute super-suit...
My issue was they kept introducing macguffins to hurt Luke and really it was just kinda boring. He gets shot and it take 3 episodes to resolve, probably coulda cut that down to one.
+1
JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
My issue was they kept introducing macguffins to hurt Luke and really it was just kinda boring. He gets shot and it take 3 episodes to resolve, probably coulda cut that down to one.
I've never read the comics. What kind of interesting villains does he have/interesting stories does he get into?
My issue was they kept introducing macguffins to hurt Luke and really it was just kinda boring. He gets shot and it take 3 episodes to resolve, probably coulda cut that down to one.
Well, they really only introduced the one macguffin. It dragged on too long, yeah, but it wasn't like they kept doing it.
The show was actually pretty representative of the comics in a lot of ways. Cottonmouth, Black Mariah and Stryker/Diamondback are essentially his own little rogues gallery.
Luke fought supervillains occasionally, usually as part of some group he was hired onto. But the villains really associated with him are unpowered criminals and figures of urban decay.
He once trashed Doomstadt because Dr. Doom owed him 200 bucks.
Since the late 90's, his profile has expanded considerably. To the point where he was leading the only Avengers franchise that didn't exist to police other Avengers franchises.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds.2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
0
Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
Given so much of the stuff with Cottonmouth was revealed to be "heavy is the head that wears the crown" and Pops showed a different way to influence the world they should have made the Luke cage story about him struggling to make a difference without becoming a fascist/like Cottonmouth with different goals and maintaining a life of his own outside of protecting the community, both from internal criminal elements and from government and police corruption.
My issue was they kept introducing macguffins to hurt Luke and really it was just kinda boring. He gets shot and it take 3 episodes to resolve, probably coulda cut that down to one.
I've never read the comics. What kind of interesting villains does he have/interesting stories does he get into?
Old-school Cage (and Iron Fist) usually fought social injustice - racist cops, drug dealers, entrenched poverty, and such. When it comes to villains, they share a lot of them with Daredevil, Spider-Man, and all the other street level Marvel heroes.
Modern Cage tends to lead the versions of the Avengers that don't fight other superheroes. He's the stable, experienced leader.
0
Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
My issue was they kept introducing macguffins to hurt Luke and really it was just kinda boring. He gets shot and it take 3 episodes to resolve, probably coulda cut that down to one.
Well, they really only introduced the one macguffin. It dragged on too long, yeah, but it wasn't like they kept doing it.
The bullet and the suit. I laughed when someone just suggested tying him to a rock and drowning his ass. I was like... yeah try that before you buy another crazy bullet.
My issue was they kept introducing macguffins to hurt Luke and really it was just kinda boring. He gets shot and it take 3 episodes to resolve, probably coulda cut that down to one.
Well, they really only introduced the one macguffin. It dragged on too long, yeah, but it wasn't like they kept doing it.
The bullet and the suit. I laughed when someone just suggested tying him to a rock and drowning his ass. I was like... yeah try that before you buy another crazy bullet.
I really, really liked Diamondback. I enjoyed his unhinged bullshit. I liked the connection to Luke. I appreciated that this was another kingpin who wasn't just in charge because money, but that could absolutely murder a room full of dudes himself. I didn't even mind the magic bullets, because that's already the kind of thing that already exists in the MCU, which actually tangibly grounds the show there.
And I believe Diamondback has a place in the story as a personified metaphor, just as all the leads do.
The biggest flaw, IMO, was not showing him earlier. Those phone conversations? Should have shown him then. He should be already present before Cottonmouth bites it, but not have come into contact with Luke. Then, when he finds out that Luke Cage is Carl Lucas, he just comes unglued.
They needed an episode to flesh out Diamondback's history like Daredevil did with Fisk.
Luke Cage:
I think he just should've been this scary asshole who's in charge from early on, where you're kinda like "why's this guy such an asshole?" And then, when the big coincidence comes to light and you get the exact backstory episode we got, you're kinda like "ohhhh..." He just should've appeared earlier.
Like his backstory, to me at least, perfectly justifies him being a mean-spirited prick. Which is in contrast to Fisk, who's a similar brand of arch criminal, but more in a sociopathic sense; he's convinced that all his bad acts are justified. Diamondback is literally just trying to spread his own pain around, with a side-order of amassing wealth and power.
And when he sees that the perceived source of his past hurt just happens to be the current thorn in his side, well... the show actually already does a pretty fine job with the results. He's willing to tear down everything just to get at this one guy.
I really, really liked Diamondback. I enjoyed his unhinged bullshit. I liked the connection to Luke. I appreciated that this was another kingpin who wasn't just in charge because money, but that could absolutely murder a room full of dudes himself. I didn't even mind the magic bullets, because that's already the kind of thing that already exists in the MCU, which actually tangibly grounds the show there.
And I believe Diamondback has a place in the story as a personified metaphor, just as all the leads do.
The biggest flaw, IMO, was not showing him earlier. Those phone conversations? Should have shown him then. He should be already present before Cottonmouth bites it, but not have come into contact with Luke. Then, when he finds out that Luke Cage is Carl Lucas, he just comes unglued.
They needed an episode to flesh out Diamondback's history like Daredevil did with Fisk.
Luke Cage:
I think he just should've been this scary asshole who's in charge from early on, where you're kinda like "why's this guy such an asshole?" And then, when the big coincidence comes to light and you get the exact backstory episode we got, you're kinda like "ohhhh..." He just should've appeared earlier.
Like his backstory, to me at least, perfectly justifies him being a mean-spirited prick. Which is in contrast to Fisk, who's a similar brand of arch criminal, but more in a sociopathic sense; he's convinced that all his bad acts are justified. Diamondback is literally just trying to spread his own pain around, with a side-order of amassing wealth and power.
And when he sees that the perceived source of his past hurt just happens to be the current thorn in his side, well... the show actually already does a pretty fine job with the results. He's willing to tear down everything just to get at this one guy.
Further Luke Cage:
I just think it would have been much more effective to show him before he was willing to destroy everything, because the character as presented didn't seem like the type to be able to amass that kind of wealth / power / following.
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I really, really liked Diamondback. I enjoyed his unhinged bullshit. I liked the connection to Luke. I appreciated that this was another kingpin who wasn't just in charge because money, but that could absolutely murder a room full of dudes himself. I didn't even mind the magic bullets, because that's already the kind of thing that already exists in the MCU, which actually tangibly grounds the show there.
And I believe Diamondback has a place in the story as a personified metaphor, just as all the leads do.
The biggest flaw, IMO, was not showing him earlier. Those phone conversations? Should have shown him then. He should be already present before Cottonmouth bites it, but not have come into contact with Luke. Then, when he finds out that Luke Cage is Carl Lucas, he just comes unglued.
They needed an episode to flesh out Diamondback's history like Daredevil did with Fisk.
Luke Cage:
I think he just should've been this scary asshole who's in charge from early on, where you're kinda like "why's this guy such an asshole?" And then, when the big coincidence comes to light and you get the exact backstory episode we got, you're kinda like "ohhhh..." He just should've appeared earlier.
Like his backstory, to me at least, perfectly justifies him being a mean-spirited prick. Which is in contrast to Fisk, who's a similar brand of arch criminal, but more in a sociopathic sense; he's convinced that all his bad acts are justified. Diamondback is literally just trying to spread his own pain around, with a side-order of amassing wealth and power.
And when he sees that the perceived source of his past hurt just happens to be the current thorn in his side, well... the show actually already does a pretty fine job with the results. He's willing to tear down everything just to get at this one guy.
Further Luke Cage:
I just think it would have been much more effective to show him before he was willing to destroy everything, because the character as presented didn't seem like the type to be able to amass that kind of wealth / power / following.
Total agree!
This is actually what I mean. I think they should have shown him as a menacing killer, and crazy to be sure, but in control, kind of like
(Iron Fist)
Harold Meachum
... and then given us the complete walking emergency we see later
+3
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
My issue was they kept introducing macguffins to hurt Luke and really it was just kinda boring. He gets shot and it take 3 episodes to resolve, probably coulda cut that down to one.
I disagree. Luke is damn near invincible as far as fighting thugs goes. You have to consider what you can do, within reason, to make his fights have some sort of tension. So you end up with situations like other people being in danger, which is good, but would get old if it was the one and only thing. Luke being hurt by something is a HUGE deal, and it compounds with the fact that, medically, he can be impossible to treat.
I really, really liked Diamondback. I enjoyed his unhinged bullshit. I liked the connection to Luke. I appreciated that this was another kingpin who wasn't just in charge because money, but that could absolutely murder a room full of dudes himself. I didn't even mind the magic bullets, because that's already the kind of thing that already exists in the MCU, which actually tangibly grounds the show there.
And I believe Diamondback has a place in the story as a personified metaphor, just as all the leads do.
The biggest flaw, IMO, was not showing him earlier. Those phone conversations? Should have shown him then. He should be already present before Cottonmouth bites it, but not have come into contact with Luke. Then, when he finds out that Luke Cage is Carl Lucas, he just comes unglued.
They needed an episode to flesh out Diamondback's history like Daredevil did with Fisk.
Luke Cage:
I think he just should've been this scary asshole who's in charge from early on, where you're kinda like "why's this guy such an asshole?" And then, when the big coincidence comes to light and you get the exact backstory episode we got, you're kinda like "ohhhh..." He just should've appeared earlier.
Like his backstory, to me at least, perfectly justifies him being a mean-spirited prick. Which is in contrast to Fisk, who's a similar brand of arch criminal, but more in a sociopathic sense; he's convinced that all his bad acts are justified. Diamondback is literally just trying to spread his own pain around, with a side-order of amassing wealth and power.
And when he sees that the perceived source of his past hurt just happens to be the current thorn in his side, well... the show actually already does a pretty fine job with the results. He's willing to tear down everything just to get at this one guy.
Further Luke Cage:
I just think it would have been much more effective to show him before he was willing to destroy everything, because the character as presented didn't seem like the type to be able to amass that kind of wealth / power / following.
To be fair, Fisk has the exact same issue.
(DD S1)
DD S1 continually presents him as a giant rage-addled baby who can't keep his shit under control and makes one wonder how the fuck he ended up as the image we get of him at the start of the season.
My issue was they kept introducing macguffins to hurt Luke and really it was just kinda boring. He gets shot and it take 3 episodes to resolve, probably coulda cut that down to one.
I disagree. Luke is damn near invincible as far as fighting thugs goes. You have to consider what you can do, within reason, to make his fights have some sort of tension. So you end up with situations like other people being in danger, which is good, but would get old if it was the one and only thing. Luke being hurt by something is a HUGE deal, and it compounds with the fact that, medically, he can be impossible to treat.
I'm not saying it can't ever be done, they just did the whole thing too sloppily for me. As soon as "hero who is unshootable gets shooted" happens it makes it seem like they couldn't think of a better way for them to hinder the hero. The suit made more sense in a hero vs jealous badguy angle, but by then we had to watch several episodes with him limping around bleeding. It did have the cop scene which i thought was a moment that needed to happen, but it felt a little meandering for a while there.
Don't get me wrong I loved 80% of the show but that bit got me.
I really, really liked Diamondback. I enjoyed his unhinged bullshit. I liked the connection to Luke. I appreciated that this was another kingpin who wasn't just in charge because money, but that could absolutely murder a room full of dudes himself. I didn't even mind the magic bullets, because that's already the kind of thing that already exists in the MCU, which actually tangibly grounds the show there.
And I believe Diamondback has a place in the story as a personified metaphor, just as all the leads do.
The biggest flaw, IMO, was not showing him earlier. Those phone conversations? Should have shown him then. He should be already present before Cottonmouth bites it, but not have come into contact with Luke. Then, when he finds out that Luke Cage is Carl Lucas, he just comes unglued.
They needed an episode to flesh out Diamondback's history like Daredevil did with Fisk.
Luke Cage:
I think he just should've been this scary asshole who's in charge from early on, where you're kinda like "why's this guy such an asshole?" And then, when the big coincidence comes to light and you get the exact backstory episode we got, you're kinda like "ohhhh..." He just should've appeared earlier.
Like his backstory, to me at least, perfectly justifies him being a mean-spirited prick. Which is in contrast to Fisk, who's a similar brand of arch criminal, but more in a sociopathic sense; he's convinced that all his bad acts are justified. Diamondback is literally just trying to spread his own pain around, with a side-order of amassing wealth and power.
And when he sees that the perceived source of his past hurt just happens to be the current thorn in his side, well... the show actually already does a pretty fine job with the results. He's willing to tear down everything just to get at this one guy.
Further Luke Cage:
I just think it would have been much more effective to show him before he was willing to destroy everything, because the character as presented didn't seem like the type to be able to amass that kind of wealth / power / following.
To be fair, Fisk has the exact same issue.
(DD S1)
DD S1 continually presents him as a giant rage-addled baby who can't keep his shit under control and makes one wonder how the fuck he ended up as the image we get of him at the start of the season.
It's because we see him at the crux of a complicated deal, where he's put himself in a precarious position. DD S1 is Fisk cracking under the psychological pressure as he loses control of things.
+1
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
One thing bothered me, to the level of Spider-man 3 awfulness, in Luke Cage.
When Diamondback wears his super punch machine and goes into town to punch a cop and starts yelling, "I'M LUKE CAGE." Like what idiot would fall for that?
+3
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
One thing bothered me, to the level of Spider-man 3 awfulness, in Luke Cage.
When Diamondback wears his super punch machine and goes into town to punch a cop and starts yelling, "I'M LUKE CAGE." Like what idiot would fall for that?
Everyone? I mean, IIRC wasn't he also doing super-strength things?
Inquisitor77 on
+3
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
One thing bothered me, to the level of Spider-man 3 awfulness, in Luke Cage.
When Diamondback wears his super punch machine and goes into town to punch a cop and starts yelling, "I'M LUKE CAGE." Like what idiot would fall for that?
Everyone? I mean, IIRC wasn't he also doing super-strength things?
His super-strength was technological in nature, it was a vest / sleeves he had to wear. He mentions in the last episode it was developed by Hammer Tech.
One thing bothered me, to the level of Spider-man 3 awfulness, in Luke Cage.
When Diamondback wears his super punch machine and goes into town to punch a cop and starts yelling, "I'M LUKE CAGE." Like what idiot would fall for that?
Yeah, that was totally unbelievable. If only he had also yelled, "I cheered in the streets when the Chitauri invaded!" And later tweeted a chart showing how 98% of all crimes committed in Harlem were done by Luke Cage. Then people would have believed him.
One thing bothered me, to the level of Spider-man 3 awfulness, in Luke Cage.
When Diamondback wears his super punch machine and goes into town to punch a cop and starts yelling, "I'M LUKE CAGE." Like what idiot would fall for that?
Only the NYPD. The streets never believed, even after the video.
I thought this was pretty interesting from a couple of angles... the divisions in the community between supporters of the police and people who don't believe anything they're told by authority, the fact that Diamondback always wanted to Be Carl Lucas... I bought into it
I liked Xmen 1 and Xmen 2, but they promised a lot more than they actually delved into on the allegory for modern day social issue side of things. They used the conflicts and issues as superficial level conflicts, but the social issues were not what the movies were about. They were mostly about hitting people in the end and demonstrations of powers.
From another website, this is what sums up my disappointment with the Xmen movies:
[...]The X-men as the heroes we’re supposed to empathize with, always worked best when they did not work within the boundaries of “them” and “us” – the comics are often hailed for their inclusive stance for anyone not belonging. Whether it’s discrimination due to color, sexuality or beliefs (or lack thereof) – to me, the essence of X-men (as opposed to evil mutants) always did lie within the very notion of NOT subscribing to the dichotomous model explained above, of not succumbing to fear – the X-men are very much human and they suffer; their mutant-power-based competence is relativized by virtue of their humanity. They are constructed as both more and less than “Us”. They are not necessarily paragons of virtue – they are struggling much like we, the readers; do, they are constructed as everyday people thrown into an impossible situation, struggling with components of identity not fitting. The X-men work because they are relatable, because they are not constructed as the Other.
…or rather, they should be. They are not in the movies. Apart from the problem of not engaging in sufficient character development for the individuals to transcend the status of cardboard cutouts and stereotypes, the movies, by virtue of their formulaic adherence to the genre-standards, construct a spectacle of the Other; an oscillation between fascination and repulsion, between xenophilia and xenophobia in the tradition of freak shows that constructs the viewer as the gawking spectator instead of as an empathetic participant. The movies enforce the very concepts the characters ought to undermine via the insistence of action over character development, mitigating the main draw of the X-men in comparison to other superhero comics.
So, the story should be how the Others are actually Us, but the movies present the Others as a spectacle, which in my opinion is wasting an incredible setup for making something more than a simple genre film.
So, going back to my previous complaints about the Xmen movies and superhero movies in general: Logan answers these very satisfactorily. I hope other studios and directors take the lesson that they can make good movies that happen to involve superheroes or characters from superheroes. It doesn't always have to be about the flash of the special effects, but can be about the characters themselves and what those characters represent. The quote by Endzeitgeist above is strongly answered by Logan. The superhero characters in the movie do not feel like superheroes. They feel like ordinary people put in incredible/extreme circumstances as well as the mundane.
0
KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
Rewatching Daredevil, I never realized how forced that exposition in the office scebe was. Also I miss evil Cyril Figgis
I really, really liked Diamondback. I enjoyed his unhinged bullshit. I liked the connection to Luke. I appreciated that this was another kingpin who wasn't just in charge because money, but that could absolutely murder a room full of dudes himself. I didn't even mind the magic bullets, because that's already the kind of thing that already exists in the MCU, which actually tangibly grounds the show there.
And I believe Diamondback has a place in the story as a personified metaphor, just as all the leads do.
The biggest flaw, IMO, was not showing him earlier. Those phone conversations? Should have shown him then. He should be already present before Cottonmouth bites it, but not have come into contact with Luke. Then, when he finds out that Luke Cage is Carl Lucas, he just comes unglued.
They needed an episode to flesh out Diamondback's history like Daredevil did with Fisk.
Luke Cage:
I think he just should've been this scary asshole who's in charge from early on, where you're kinda like "why's this guy such an asshole?" And then, when the big coincidence comes to light and you get the exact backstory episode we got, you're kinda like "ohhhh..." He just should've appeared earlier.
Like his backstory, to me at least, perfectly justifies him being a mean-spirited prick. Which is in contrast to Fisk, who's a similar brand of arch criminal, but more in a sociopathic sense; he's convinced that all his bad acts are justified. Diamondback is literally just trying to spread his own pain around, with a side-order of amassing wealth and power.
And when he sees that the perceived source of his past hurt just happens to be the current thorn in his side, well... the show actually already does a pretty fine job with the results. He's willing to tear down everything just to get at this one guy.
Further Luke Cage:
I just think it would have been much more effective to show him before he was willing to destroy everything, because the character as presented didn't seem like the type to be able to amass that kind of wealth / power / following.
To be fair, Fisk has the exact same issue.
(DD S1)
DD S1 continually presents him as a giant rage-addled baby who can't keep his shit under control and makes one wonder how the fuck he ended up as the image we get of him at the start of the season.
It's because we see him at the crux of a complicated deal, where he's put himself in a precarious position. DD S1 is Fisk cracking under the psychological pressure as he loses control of things.
The other people in his circle seem to suggest it's all the new woman in his life. But the problem is they never establish him as he supposedly exists in the first place. He's basically kind of a maniac from the moment we meet him.
The character as presented does not seem capable of becoming the kingpin he is supposed to be.
+1
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
One thing bothered me, to the level of Spider-man 3 awfulness, in Luke Cage.
When Diamondback wears his super punch machine and goes into town to punch a cop and starts yelling, "I'M LUKE CAGE." Like what idiot would fall for that?
Only the NYPD. The streets never believed, even after the video.
I thought this was pretty interesting from a couple of angles... the divisions in the community between supporters of the police and people who don't believe anything they're told by authority, the fact that Diamondback always wanted to Be Carl Lucas... I bought into it
I'm not talking about the audience falling for it. I'm talking about in-setting. If you saw a hooded figure do something bad then start shouting 'his' name, both of which run counter to what you know of the guy he is claiming to be, would you go, "Oh my gosh he's fallen off the rails" or "was that really him?" I mean it was cartoonishly bad. Setting people up is definitely a thing in fiction, but it's usually done with more precision and subtlety. This was just "I HOPE YOU FALL FOR IT, NOTHING SUSPICIOUS HERE."
One thing bothered me, to the level of Spider-man 3 awfulness, in Luke Cage.
When Diamondback wears his super punch machine and goes into town to punch a cop and starts yelling, "I'M LUKE CAGE." Like what idiot would fall for that?
Only the NYPD. The streets never believed, even after the video.
I thought this was pretty interesting from a couple of angles... the divisions in the community between supporters of the police and people who don't believe anything they're told by authority, the fact that Diamondback always wanted to Be Carl Lucas... I bought into it
I'm not talking about the audience falling for it. I'm talking about in-setting. If you saw a hooded figure do something bad then start shouting 'his' name, both of which run counter to what you know of the guy he is claiming to be, would you go, "Oh my gosh he's fallen off the rails" or "was that really him?" I mean it was cartoonishly bad. Setting people up is definitely a thing in fiction, but it's usually done with more precision and subtlety. This was just "I HOPE YOU FALL FOR IT, NOTHING SUSPICIOUS HERE."
We see that though? Like, the witness doesn't say "it was Luke Cage" he tells the cops that he said "Luke Cage". And Misty is like "well that makes no sense", but the SWAT cops are already going after Luke anyways so they don't look at it too much.
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that would have been the obvious choice, but I'd settle for it at least trying to be something. it manages to balance a bunch of shit (barely) but it never commits to anything.
Spool, by and large i totally agree with you. I loved or strongly liked everything MCU had done up until this point.
However, i HOPE you like it. I wish i could I really really wish i could.
Ha! Between all your posts deriding Iron Fist from every possible angle, you have written at least an essay, if not a thesis paper.
Well, Luke Cage didn't hold on to the title of Most Divisive MCU Show for long, huh? So, I'll agree that Shryke was stretching it a bit there. You're right, opinions, subjectivity and all that, you even had some good points here and there but denying your own role in "same like 3 people" is laughable. Come on man, your post history is, like, right there. You expressed yourself pretty clearly across a couple of threads, you loved to hate watch this show.
Its ok dude, its funny, hate watching usually is. Now I am going to go watch some more MST3K, seems fitting after watching MCU stuff and reading these threads
And I believe Diamondback has a place in the story as a personified metaphor, just as all the leads do.
The biggest flaw, IMO, was not showing him earlier. Those phone conversations? Should have shown him then. He should be already present before Cottonmouth bites it, but not have come into contact with Luke. Then, when he finds out that Luke Cage is Carl Lucas, he just comes unglued.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
If anything my main beef just boils down to I wanted more Mahershala Ali
Luke Cage:
What is this?
His history seemed superfluous and contrary to that chatacterisation though
They needed an episode to flesh out Diamondback's history like Daredevil did with Fisk.
Well, they kind of did. It just fell flat.
They probably shouldn't have had him in the story to begin with. Or they could've kept him in the shadows and given Luke a generic big bad minion to fight instead.
It felt too much like they were trying to re-make Fisk, and that's a tall order to live up to. Better off not even trying than bringing in a last-minute super-suit...
I've never read the comics. What kind of interesting villains does he have/interesting stories does he get into?
Well, they really only introduced the one macguffin. It dragged on too long, yeah, but it wasn't like they kept doing it.
Luke fought supervillains occasionally, usually as part of some group he was hired onto. But the villains really associated with him are unpowered criminals and figures of urban decay.
He once trashed Doomstadt because Dr. Doom owed him 200 bucks.
Since the late 90's, his profile has expanded considerably. To the point where he was leading the only Avengers franchise that didn't exist to police other Avengers franchises.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
The first one was pretty focused on Luke's personal decisions surrounding heroics and how far he was willing to go to be a hero.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Old-school Cage (and Iron Fist) usually fought social injustice - racist cops, drug dealers, entrenched poverty, and such. When it comes to villains, they share a lot of them with Daredevil, Spider-Man, and all the other street level Marvel heroes.
Modern Cage tends to lead the versions of the Avengers that don't fight other superheroes. He's the stable, experienced leader.
So much of everything is too beholden to convention AND tradition and that is no beuno
The bullet and the suit. I laughed when someone just suggested tying him to a rock and drowning his ass. I was like... yeah try that before you buy another crazy bullet.
Ahh yes, the suit. Forgot about that.
Luke Cage:
Like his backstory, to me at least, perfectly justifies him being a mean-spirited prick. Which is in contrast to Fisk, who's a similar brand of arch criminal, but more in a sociopathic sense; he's convinced that all his bad acts are justified. Diamondback is literally just trying to spread his own pain around, with a side-order of amassing wealth and power.
And when he sees that the perceived source of his past hurt just happens to be the current thorn in his side, well... the show actually already does a pretty fine job with the results. He's willing to tear down everything just to get at this one guy.
Further Luke Cage:
PSN / Xbox / NNID: Fodder185
Total agree!
This is actually what I mean. I think they should have shown him as a menacing killer, and crazy to be sure, but in control, kind of like
(Iron Fist)
... and then given us the complete walking emergency we see later
To be fair, Fisk has the exact same issue.
(DD S1)
I'm not saying it can't ever be done, they just did the whole thing too sloppily for me. As soon as "hero who is unshootable gets shooted" happens it makes it seem like they couldn't think of a better way for them to hinder the hero. The suit made more sense in a hero vs jealous badguy angle, but by then we had to watch several episodes with him limping around bleeding. It did have the cop scene which i thought was a moment that needed to happen, but it felt a little meandering for a while there.
Don't get me wrong I loved 80% of the show but that bit got me.
Everyone? I mean, IIRC wasn't he also doing super-strength things?
Yeah, that was totally unbelievable. If only he had also yelled, "I cheered in the streets when the Chitauri invaded!" And later tweeted a chart showing how 98% of all crimes committed in Harlem were done by Luke Cage. Then people would have believed him.
I thought this was pretty interesting from a couple of angles... the divisions in the community between supporters of the police and people who don't believe anything they're told by authority, the fact that Diamondback always wanted to Be Carl Lucas... I bought into it
So, going back to my previous complaints about the Xmen movies and superhero movies in general: Logan answers these very satisfactorily. I hope other studios and directors take the lesson that they can make good movies that happen to involve superheroes or characters from superheroes. It doesn't always have to be about the flash of the special effects, but can be about the characters themselves and what those characters represent. The quote by Endzeitgeist above is strongly answered by Logan. The superhero characters in the movie do not feel like superheroes. They feel like ordinary people put in incredible/extreme circumstances as well as the mundane.
The character as presented does not seem capable of becoming the kingpin he is supposed to be.