I hope its okay to post this thread. I read D&D pretty often, but usually abstain from posting since I'm not very skilled in formal debate or knowledgable about worldly political affairs.
So I'm not sure if this is an actual "debate" topic but recently I've been studying Aleister Crowley and Thelema and I find it somewhat interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowleyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema
From what I've taken from Thelema in the last few days of reading up on it, is that it is essentially a somewhat hedonist, pacifistic religion which advocates each person possesses a "True Will". This True Will is the pure essence of a person, their connection to the universe, and their purpose in life. It seems to take influences from Buddhism and Gnosticism. The doctrine itself is pretty standard for a religion and I don't see anything wrong with it from a philosophical viewpoint.
However, Crowley himself and his inspiration for the authoring of the main text of Thelema "
The Book of the Law" are somewhat dubious. Attesting that he had invoked the spirit of the Egyptian god Horus through his wife and a mytserious voice told him the words which filled his book. Crowley himself was known to experiment with psychedelic drugs in his time.
My questions are... Is Crowley another L. Ron Hubbard? Is there anything useful to take from Thelema that can't be found in other religions? Is "Do what thou wilt" a usefull philosophy?
If anyone has anymore insight on Thelema and Aleister Crowley I would love to hear it. Is he studied much in religion/philosphy courses? I took a Modern Philosophy course in college but we never really studied him.
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Not that I, unlike some atheists, believe people who are religous are foolish and stupid. I think its a good thing if a person is religous. In the end, religion just teaches you good values and to help others. there is nothing wrong with that.
Except for the killing people that dont worship your god, your way part :P
Just pointing that out, I shall return to the darkest caves from which I set forth!!
Was he the devil incarnate?
No.
Did he enjoy orgies and opium?
Yes.
I remember a quote of his about him going to heaven when he dies so he can piss on god.
That always made me laugh.
Not all vampires suck blood.
Not all of them die for love.
Reminds me of Richard Garriot's Ethical Hedonism that he preaches in a book hidden in Ultima IX.
..yeah
drugs and bullshit
you forgot bisexual orgies :winky:
It's not hedonist at all. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" has to be taken in context. The thelemites I know prefer "Love is the law; love under will." Those two statements are saying that the supreme law is to find your True Will and manifest it.
Crowley was a member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (as was W.B. Yeats) - a Rosicrucian order popular in various circles at the beginning of the 20th Century. There is a definite spiritual succession from the Cathars ("Gnostics"), John Dee, and the later Rosicrucian orders. The major Eastern influence would be Hinduism (indeed, Yoga is a fundamental practice in Thelema), not Buddhism.
Crowley did not invoke Horus when he wrote the Book of the Law. The incident with his wife you describe is completely separate, and has very little to do with Liber AL vel Legis. It was the entity Aiwass/Aiwaz (his Holy Guardian Angel, or HGA) that he communed with when he wrote the work.
Drug induced states have been used by magicians and shamans throughout time. Crowley, however, was perfectly lucid during the writing of Liber Al vel Legis - as a ritual magician, drugs would only be used by Crowley if he was performing a ritual.
That's insulting. L. Ron Hubbard is a kook and fraud who passed science fiction off as religion. Crowley is the most significant Occulist in the early twentieth century (perhaps rivaled in his time by only Austin Osman Spare in influence). Crowley never founded a religion, never claimed to be a prophet of the divine, nor ever solicited initiates or students for cash in exchange for teaching.
There are two faces of Thelema, and it's very important to keep that in mind. The first is the religious side; it is syncretic, and the influences are readily apparent (and most of the underlying philosophical or theological concepts can be gleaned elsewhere). The other is the occult side - which, while now sorely out of the date, is still very influential and worth looking into if you are a student of the occult.
It's no more a philosophy than the categorical imperative is a philosophy - both, however, are very important parts of overarching philosophical systems (Kantianism and Thelema, respectively).
What do you want to know?
Hell the Wiccan creed "and it harm none do thy will" is probably a direct modification of Thelema saying.
It should be noted "Do thy Will" is not nearly as simple as it seems. True Will is the center of Thelema's philosophy. Basically it says that most people are distracted from thier true purpose and need ot seek it out. True Will isn't doing whatever you want it's doing what you're supposed to be doing.
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/index.html
I've looked through those awhile to try to understand more about Crowley and Thelema than what I could garner from Wikipedia. The only writing of his that I've found worth reading was the "Preliminary Marks" section of this page:
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/aba1.html
The rest of his work seems to describe meditation practices and occult rituals veiled in turgid English English.
He allegedly performed the non-subjective act of illuminating an interior chamber of some pyramid enough to read some manuscript without any other light, presumably with his mind or "magicK" or what have you.
If he were a genius, I wouldn't be in any position to tell. I'd bet just crazy though. Maybe he just made up the whole Thelema thing to trick young men and women into going ot his sex-drug parties?
"I admit that my visions can never mean to other men as much as they do to me. I do not regret this. All I ask is that my results should convince seekers after truth that there is beyond doubt something worth while seeking, attainable by methods more or less like mine. I do not want to father a flock, to be the fetish of fools and fanatics, or the founder of a faith whose followers are content to echo my opinions. I want each man to cut his own way through the jungle"
Doesn't sound like much of a cult leader to be(which is why the L Ron Hubbard comparison is a terrible one.
Crowley did not found Thelema. A frenchman by the name of Francois Rabelais first formulated the philosophy. The term was seized upon by Crowley, who further developed the philosophy, and added his occult knowledge to create a system of magickal practise, and a more general 'philosophy of life' (which one could easily call a religion).
But hey at least the dude was a sexual revolutionary so you know he got his freak on once in awile.