How ...how is learning about specific racial/cultural history going to prevent any kid from failing and help push them towards graduation?
When kids aren't being taught something they can relate to - for example when history class is just about a bunch of long-dead, white guys from either Britain or France - they lose interest. When they can see themselves reflected in what they learn, they see themselves as a part of this society, and not excluded.
How ...how is learning about specific racial/cultural history going to prevent any kid from failing and help push them towards graduation?
When kids aren't being taught something they can relate to - for example when history class is just about a bunch of long-dead, white guys from either Britain or France - they lose interest. When they can see themselves reflected in what they learn, they see themselves as a part of this society, and not excluded.
I know.
I totally remember that all the kids in my high school were really into history because they were white.
I like the idea of charter schools. If a slightly alternate curriculum can engage students with different interests better that's great.
The real trouble here is this kind of school is being proposed as a solution to poor student performance and racial problems. I think that's a load of shit.
And the Arabic school in NYC is not comparable. It's not aimed solely at Arab kids anyone can go. It's also not a school for poorly performing students as it's by application only so the standards are probably higher than your average public school not lower
It doesn't sound like a terrible idea. The execution might be terrible.
If there's something wrong that can be directly correlated to race, then there's something that needs to be done about it. I'm not sure that this specific example is what needs to be done, but I'm also not sure that it's the worst thing ever OMGOMG let's have a white history month. That kind of reaction ignores that western culture is generally geared towards white people already, and that a white history month, white television network, white-exclusive anything else, would be fucking redundant.
How ...how is learning about specific racial/cultural history going to prevent any kid from failing and help push them towards graduation?
When kids aren't being taught something they can relate to - for example when history class is just about a bunch of long-dead, white guys from either Britain or France - they lose interest. When they can see themselves reflected in what they learn, they see themselves as a part of this society, and not excluded.
I know.
I totally remember that all the kids in my high school were really into history because they were white.
And seriously, that's what Canada's history IS. British people and French people and how much they didn't get along.
Oh yeah, and we pushed those natives types out of the way occasionally.
How ...how is learning about specific racial/cultural history going to prevent any kid from failing and help push them towards graduation?
When kids aren't being taught something they can relate to - for example when history class is just about a bunch of long-dead, white guys from either Britain or France - they lose interest. When they can see themselves reflected in what they learn, they see themselves as a part of this society, and not excluded.
I know.
I totally remember that all the kids in my high school were really into history because they were white.
But, it's different.
If you grew up with an influence that told you that these kind of people once/are/will persecute you because they're white and you're black, you may see being taught about a bunch of white guys by a white guy as slightly... uncomfortable.
I mean this school idea is terrible, but the idea of having a more multicultural learning experience isn't a bad one. At all.
How ...how is learning about specific racial/cultural history going to prevent any kid from failing and help push them towards graduation?
When kids aren't being taught something they can relate to - for example when history class is just about a bunch of long-dead, white guys from either Britain or France - they lose interest. When they can see themselves reflected in what they learn, they see themselves as a part of this society, and not excluded.
I know.
I totally remember that all the kids in my high school were really into history because they were white.
If you grew up with an influence that told you that these kind of people once/are/will persecute you because they're white and you're black
.
Canada has a very strong history of racism, that's a given. But where I'm from, the people who underachieve and get the short end of the stick are all poor, and those people don't necessarily have to be black, or white, or any other colour or ethnic group.
Does that mean we should have a specific school that targets low income students? You know, where they can learn about heroes of the underclass, like Spartacus, or Lenin? I mean, I don't think I'd necessarily be opposed to imbuing a whole crap load of impressionable teenagers with the latest in Marxist historical analysis, but the general idea itself is fucking batshit.
If you grew up with an influence that told you that these kind of people once/are/will persecute you because they're white and you're black, you may see being taught about a bunch of white guys by a white guy as slightly... uncomfortable.
Yeah, it's best to stay in an environment where there are none of those "bad guys" so you don't end up forming your own opinion and seeing that the prior influence was wrong.
I just really can't see how people think this is a good idea. I mean, I'm reading the posts, but it's like someone who wants to set all of his money on fire. I understand the mechanics of the action, but not the concept.
How ...how is learning about specific racial/cultural history going to prevent any kid from failing and help push them towards graduation?
When kids aren't being taught something they can relate to - for example when history class is just about a bunch of long-dead, white guys from either Britain or France - they lose interest. When they can see themselves reflected in what they learn, they see themselves as a part of this society, and not excluded.
I totally remember that all the kids in my high school were really into history because they were white.
It's one thing to find history interesting, it's another to feel that history is your's - hard to do when it makes next to no mention of anyone like you.
Not suggesting much here - take some time to, in addition to the discussion of Wolfe and Montcalm, say a little about a black MP, the contributions of black Canadians or some local community history. Read something by Achebe or whomever in literature class. Certainly not an entirely separate school at all.
If you grew up with an influence that told you that these kind of people once/are/will persecute you because they're white and you're black, you may see being taught about a bunch of white guys by a white guy as slightly... uncomfortable.
Yeah, it's best to stay in an environment where there are none of those "bad guys" so you don't end up forming your own opinion and seeing that the prior influence was wrong.
I just really can't see how people think this is a good idea. I mean, I'm reading the posts, but it's like someone who wants to set all of his money on fire. I understand the mechanics of the action, but not the concept.
Wow, I don't know where in my post I said anything about how the school should have a no white people allowed policy, but you seemed to have managed to find it. I'm simply trying to suggest what could be flawed about of history classes today.
Once again I can't see how a more multicultural history class like Andrew_Jay is suggesting could be a bad thing.
If anything, there should be a free school for low-income parents that teaches them to effectively raise "success-bound" children. Parents who must miss work to attend get paid leave or something like that, for up to three hours a week or something.
[EDIT] I don't mean teach parents how to raise their kids in general, I mean teach parents how to foster and instill in their kids some positive drive towards purpose/goals/achievements
And by "success-bound" I don't mean get married, have three cars, and retire at 45. I mean to have the drive to plan out a goal and achieve it, whatever it may be. Hopefully, these goal-oriented kids will end up contributing to society in some way.
If you grew up with an influence that told you that these kind of people once/are/will persecute you because they're white and you're black, you may see being taught about a bunch of white guys by a white guy as slightly... uncomfortable.
Yeah, it's best to stay in an environment where there are none of those "bad guys" so you don't end up forming your own opinion and seeing that the prior influence was wrong.
I just really can't see how people think this is a good idea. I mean, I'm reading the posts, but it's like someone who wants to set all of his money on fire. I understand the mechanics of the action, but not the concept.
Wow, I don't know where in my post I said anything about how the school should have a no white people allowed policy, but you seemed to have managed to find it. I'm simply trying to suggest what could be flawed about of history classes today.
Once again I can't see how a more multicultural history class like Andrew_Jay is suggesting could be a bad thing.
I disagree that we should add historically unimportant figures to an already crowded curriculum. These kids aren't delinquents because they're unaware of the role (if you want to call it that) that black people played in shaping the country's history. They're delinquents because their parents are poor and uneducated, and the government has abandoned the poor and uneducated.
I don't see why including some non-white history into the curriculum requires introducing an entirely seperate school. Teach everyone some history about white people and some history about black people. Or will that make all the white kids drop out if you teach them about black guys?
I don't see why including some non-white history into the curriculum requires introducing an entirely seperate school. Teach everyone some history about white people and some history about black people. Or will that make all the white kids drop out if you teach them about black guys?
Well, I can understand the argument against increasing the curriculum within high school. Especially after the axing of Grade 13, adding more compulsory courses to the school system will just strain already underfunded and overstretched schools further. However, that's far more a problem with our education system.
there is a similar argument about monnosex schools. NYC opened up a public school just for Arabic speaking kids. ESL programs work fairly well.
Not really. Unisex schools are generally justified on the basis of keeping boys and girls from being distracted by one another. And schools dedicated to people who speak a specific language are a completely separate issue. The functional difference between black kids and non-black kids is non-existent. Even to the extent that a relevant cultural divide does exist, all this does is exacerbate it.
unless, you know. the diffrent catering in needs of that cultural divide and better shaping the education to meet their needs, actually helps. just having motivated teachers who are there to make a diffrence and relate to and motivates the kids helps.
do the kids have diffrent needs? well, yes apparently they do, because of the vastly diffrent drop out rate. It doesn't really matter if those are because they live in shitty conditions or their parents all suck. Here is a chance to figure out what can be done and try diffrent approaches, to seek to find a solution.
I don't see how it is not worth trying. The building will still be there. The teachers can learn a new curriculum. Schools can be reintegrated, we've done it before.
Your argument is based entirely on the assumption that the drop out rate is different based on skin color and not poverty. I haven't been able to dredge up numbers on this particular district but as been mentioned earlier there have been studies in other areas showing that there is no difference in drop out rate between poor black students and poor students of any other race. Which, honestly, is what I would hope would be the case as the alternative is that there is a genetic determinant to intelligence.
Um, I just want to point out that blacks from the Caribbean Islands are still originally from Africa. The United States wasn't the only place to steal people from Africa as slaves.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
When white teens start having a 40% dropout rate, then you can bring it up. This thing came about because people saw there was a very real problem.
So, do we really think black kids are dropping out at a freightening rate because they'd rather learn about George Washington Carver than George Washington? And how much of black history do we think kids aren't learning in regular classes? I hate to say it, but in a pragmatic historical context, learning who the first black person to do something was isn't nearly as important as who the first person, period, was.
I have a lot of strong opinions on the issue, so I'll likely try to bow out of this conversation with some dignity intact, but I will say that if who felt strongly about "africentric" education actually read some of the works of the original North American black leaders (DuBois, et al), they would find a mindset drastically opposed to those of contemporary black leaders.
I'll admit, it's a bold step to correct a very serious problem. But it seems very misguided, at best.
When white teens start having a 40% dropout rate, then you can bring it up. This thing came about because people saw there was a very real problem.
So, do we really think black kids are dropping out at a freightening rate because they'd rather learn about George Washington Carver than George Washington? And how much of black history do we think kids aren't learning in regular classes? I hate to say it, but in a pragmatic historical context, learning who the first black person to do something was isn't nearly as important as who the first person, period, was.
I have a lot of strong opinions on the issue, so I'll likely try to bow out of this conversation with some dignity intact, but I will say that if who felt strongly about "africentric" education actually read some of the works of the original North American black leaders (DuBois, et al), they would find a mindset drastically opposed to those of contemporary black leaders.
I'll admit, it's a bold step to correct a very serious problem. But it seems very misguided, at best.
You'd be hard pressed to find anything in my post other than me admitting that there was a problem that needed to be addressed.
It was primarily in response to 'lol what about an all white school'.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Yes why on earth would they leave their doors unlocked when they're inside their own homes, it's almost like they're not terrified of each other! the monsters!
yes I realise your post was joking and so was mine
And while the correlation may be between dropout rates and poverty rather than race, I'm fairly sure that the average african american income is far lower than the national average.
It's fucking retarded. It's a step-backwards after everything that went through in the Civil Rights Movement.
In a related note, (INsert Race Here) History Month of ANY kind is just as retarded. All it really turns into is:
"HEY DID YOU KNOW THAT (Race) INVENTED (this). (that) WAS INVENTED BY (race). I BET YOU DIDN'T KNOW! SO WAS THIS! WE TOTALLY DID THAT TOO. WE THINK YOU'RE STUPID AND DON'T REALLY KNOW THAT SO WE HAVE TO POINT IT OUT AND RUB IT IN YOUR FACE WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT."
Well, gee otaku dood, sorry if us colored folk want to get away from the euro-centric viewpoint in every facet of our lives asking us to assimilate and drop our heritage and history (which often involves something european bending us over a table!) for a few days in a goddamn month.
We really should just drop culture-honoring months because those commercials in February on Nickelodeon about George Washington Carver really annoy otaku d zero zero d.
It's an exaggeration, but it's frustrating whenever I hear people decry anything non white culture-centric, whether it's clubs or themed months because they have some bizarre logic about how it's useless/racist/victimizing white people.
It's a fucking month to promote other perspectives in the country. You can give us that, at the very least.
Just to let our American contributers know, Canadian school curriculum is vastly different than American curriculums, especially in regards to History.
Canadians schools seem to teach 1 History course every 2 years, and alot of it is repeat and rehash. So by the time a Canadian has graduated high school, they have had maybe 2 credits worth of History taught to them.
Ask any Canadian to name the first Prime Minister, when the first colony/city was founded in Canada, or even the name of the first city/colony, and you will get blank stares. Ask them to name 5 Canadian heroes, and they might be able to name 2.
All they really need to do is add a course on African Leaders in History and give it equivalent credits/weighting to any other Social Studies/History course.
This isnt an Africentric school, its a Povicentric school. As long as its actually run like they realize its for poverty stricken youths and have free school lunches & breakfasts or whatever I would support it.
Just to let our American contributers know, Canadian school curriculum is vastly different than American curriculums, especially in regards to History.
Canadians schools seem to teach 1 History course every 2 years, and alot of it is repeat and rehash. So by the time a Canadian has graduated high school, they have had maybe 2 credits worth of History taught to them.
Ask any Canadian to name the first Prime Minister, when the first colony/city was founded in Canada, or even the name of the first city/colony, and you will get blank stares. Ask them to name 5 Canadian heroes, and they might be able to name 2.
Uh, speak for yourself there bud. Through grade school I was taught the general history of Canada and Western Civilization, beginning with the Mesopotamians and ending with the aftermath of the second world war. One course per year. I don't know anyone who doesn't know who the first PM was.
Education is not federally standardized and each province does things differently. There is no "Canadian school curriculum". Don't generalize every province based on your own experiences in Alberta.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Just to let our American contributers know, Canadian school curriculum is vastly different than American curriculums, especially in regards to History.
Canadians schools seem to teach 1 History course every 2 years, and alot of it is repeat and rehash. So by the time a Canadian has graduated high school, they have had maybe 2 credits worth of History taught to them.
Ask any Canadian to name the first Prime Minister, when the first colony/city was founded in Canada, or even the name of the first city/colony, and you will get blank stares. Ask them to name 5 Canadian heroes, and they might be able to name 2.
Uh, speak for yourself there bud. Through grade school I was taught the history of Canada and Western Civilization, beginning with the Mesopotamians and ending with the aftermath of the second world war.
Then you were lucky, as my experience with history is about as Gnome describes.
Just to let our American contributers know, Canadian school curriculum is vastly different than American curriculums, especially in regards to History.
Canadians schools seem to teach 1 History course every 2 years, and alot of it is repeat and rehash. So by the time a Canadian has graduated high school, they have had maybe 2 credits worth of History taught to them.
Ask any Canadian to name the first Prime Minister, when the first colony/city was founded in Canada, or even the name of the first city/colony, and you will get blank stares. Ask them to name 5 Canadian heroes, and they might be able to name 2.
All they really need to do is add a course on African Leaders in History and give it equivalent credits/weighting to any other Social Studies/History course.
This isnt an Africentric school, its a Povicentric school. As long as its actually run like they realize its for poverty stricken youths and have free school lunches & breakfasts or whatever I would support it.
Learning the actual history should be the secondary goal of any history class, behind teaching effective reading, research, and writing skills.
Just to let our American contributers know, Canadian school curriculum is vastly different than American curriculums, especially in regards to History.
Canadians schools seem to teach 1 History course every 2 years, and alot of it is repeat and rehash. So by the time a Canadian has graduated high school, they have had maybe 2 credits worth of History taught to them.
Ask any Canadian to name the first Prime Minister, when the first colony/city was founded in Canada, or even the name of the first city/colony, and you will get blank stares. Ask them to name 5 Canadian heroes, and they might be able to name 2.
Uh, speak for yourself there bud. Through grade school I was taught the history of Canada and Western Civilization, beginning with the Mesopotamians and ending with the aftermath of the second world war.
It all depends on how old you are and where you went to school.
In Ontario, before the education "reforms", History was a fucking joke. Not so much in High School, but Elementary School was pathetic. It was Jaques Cartier every fucking year. We learned jack shit.
All they really need to do is add a course on African Leaders in History and give it equivalent credits/weighting to any other Social Studies/History course.
Why? Your in Canada, you learn Canadian history. And I'm sorry, and maybe the Americans really don't get it cause it's different up here, but black people simply didn't play near as big a role in Canadian history.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Just to let our American contributers know, Canadian school curriculum is vastly different than American curriculums, especially in regards to History.
Canadians schools seem to teach 1 History course every 2 years, and alot of it is repeat and rehash. So by the time a Canadian has graduated high school, they have had maybe 2 credits worth of History taught to them.
Ask any Canadian to name the first Prime Minister, when the first colony/city was founded in Canada, or even the name of the first city/colony, and you will get blank stares. Ask them to name 5 Canadian heroes, and they might be able to name 2.
All they really need to do is add a course on African Leaders in History and give it equivalent credits/weighting to any other Social Studies/History course.
This isnt an Africentric school, its a Povicentric school. As long as its actually run like they realize its for poverty stricken youths and have free school lunches & breakfasts or whatever I would support it.
Learning the actual history should be the secondary goal of any history class, behind teaching effective reading, research, and writing skills.
Wouldn't that be a far more compatible fit within an English class?
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Canada's multi-cultural experiment has taken crazy turn on this one.
I know.
I totally remember that all the kids in my high school were really into history because they were white.
The real trouble here is this kind of school is being proposed as a solution to poor student performance and racial problems. I think that's a load of shit.
And the Arabic school in NYC is not comparable. It's not aimed solely at Arab kids anyone can go. It's also not a school for poorly performing students as it's by application only so the standards are probably higher than your average public school not lower
But that is only in comparison to the really substandard schools that the local governments provide.
If there's something wrong that can be directly correlated to race, then there's something that needs to be done about it. I'm not sure that this specific example is what needs to be done, but I'm also not sure that it's the worst thing ever OMGOMG let's have a white history month. That kind of reaction ignores that western culture is generally geared towards white people already, and that a white history month, white television network, white-exclusive anything else, would be fucking redundant.
And seriously, that's what Canada's history IS. British people and French people and how much they didn't get along.
Oh yeah, and we pushed those natives types out of the way occasionally.
But, it's different.
If you grew up with an influence that told you that these kind of people once/are/will persecute you because they're white and you're black, you may see being taught about a bunch of white guys by a white guy as slightly... uncomfortable.
I mean this school idea is terrible, but the idea of having a more multicultural learning experience isn't a bad one. At all.
Canada has a very strong history of racism, that's a given. But where I'm from, the people who underachieve and get the short end of the stick are all poor, and those people don't necessarily have to be black, or white, or any other colour or ethnic group.
Does that mean we should have a specific school that targets low income students? You know, where they can learn about heroes of the underclass, like Spartacus, or Lenin? I mean, I don't think I'd necessarily be opposed to imbuing a whole crap load of impressionable teenagers with the latest in Marxist historical analysis, but the general idea itself is fucking batshit.
I just really can't see how people think this is a good idea. I mean, I'm reading the posts, but it's like someone who wants to set all of his money on fire. I understand the mechanics of the action, but not the concept.
Not suggesting much here - take some time to, in addition to the discussion of Wolfe and Montcalm, say a little about a black MP, the contributions of black Canadians or some local community history. Read something by Achebe or whomever in literature class. Certainly not an entirely separate school at all.
Wow, I don't know where in my post I said anything about how the school should have a no white people allowed policy, but you seemed to have managed to find it. I'm simply trying to suggest what could be flawed about of history classes today.
Once again I can't see how a more multicultural history class like Andrew_Jay is suggesting could be a bad thing.
[EDIT] I don't mean teach parents how to raise their kids in general, I mean teach parents how to foster and instill in their kids some positive drive towards purpose/goals/achievements
And by "success-bound" I don't mean get married, have three cars, and retire at 45. I mean to have the drive to plan out a goal and achieve it, whatever it may be. Hopefully, these goal-oriented kids will end up contributing to society in some way.
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Oh my god. That ruins everything!
I demand a recount! RECOUNT! :P
Well, I can understand the argument against increasing the curriculum within high school. Especially after the axing of Grade 13, adding more compulsory courses to the school system will just strain already underfunded and overstretched schools further. However, that's far more a problem with our education system.
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Your argument is based entirely on the assumption that the drop out rate is different based on skin color and not poverty. I haven't been able to dredge up numbers on this particular district but as been mentioned earlier there have been studies in other areas showing that there is no difference in drop out rate between poor black students and poor students of any other race. Which, honestly, is what I would hope would be the case as the alternative is that there is a genetic determinant to intelligence.
So, do we really think black kids are dropping out at a freightening rate because they'd rather learn about George Washington Carver than George Washington? And how much of black history do we think kids aren't learning in regular classes? I hate to say it, but in a pragmatic historical context, learning who the first black person to do something was isn't nearly as important as who the first person, period, was.
I have a lot of strong opinions on the issue, so I'll likely try to bow out of this conversation with some dignity intact, but I will say that if who felt strongly about "africentric" education actually read some of the works of the original North American black leaders (DuBois, et al), they would find a mindset drastically opposed to those of contemporary black leaders.
I'll admit, it's a bold step to correct a very serious problem. But it seems very misguided, at best.
You'd be hard pressed to find anything in my post other than me admitting that there was a problem that needed to be addressed.
It was primarily in response to 'lol what about an all white school'.
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My response was more rhetorical than pointed. No worries.
You crazies with your bring your own weed cafes and never lockign the door. What'll you think of next eh?
And while the correlation may be between dropout rates and poverty rather than race, I'm fairly sure that the average african american income is far lower than the national average.
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Well, gee otaku dood, sorry if us colored folk want to get away from the euro-centric viewpoint in every facet of our lives asking us to assimilate and drop our heritage and history (which often involves something european bending us over a table!) for a few days in a goddamn month.
We really should just drop culture-honoring months because those commercials in February on Nickelodeon about George Washington Carver really annoy otaku d zero zero d.
It must be such hell.
Dominating every facet and moment of your life, stealin' yur heritage, rapin' you from behind.
Pshh.
It's a fucking month to promote other perspectives in the country. You can give us that, at the very least.
But now we're going off topic! I know.
Not from my experience. Typically only Canadian history is taught, and even then not all that much.
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/07/28/gay.school.ap/
I think you should do what you want to to do, but that seems like a very bad idea.
Seems kind of like a cop out.
Canadians schools seem to teach 1 History course every 2 years, and alot of it is repeat and rehash. So by the time a Canadian has graduated high school, they have had maybe 2 credits worth of History taught to them.
Ask any Canadian to name the first Prime Minister, when the first colony/city was founded in Canada, or even the name of the first city/colony, and you will get blank stares. Ask them to name 5 Canadian heroes, and they might be able to name 2.
All they really need to do is add a course on African Leaders in History and give it equivalent credits/weighting to any other Social Studies/History course.
This isnt an Africentric school, its a Povicentric school. As long as its actually run like they realize its for poverty stricken youths and have free school lunches & breakfasts or whatever I would support it.
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Education is not federally standardized and each province does things differently. There is no "Canadian school curriculum". Don't generalize every province based on your own experiences in Alberta.
Then you were lucky, as my experience with history is about as Gnome describes.
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It all depends on how old you are and where you went to school.
In Ontario, before the education "reforms", History was a fucking joke. Not so much in High School, but Elementary School was pathetic. It was Jaques Cartier every fucking year. We learned jack shit.
Why? Your in Canada, you learn Canadian history. And I'm sorry, and maybe the Americans really don't get it cause it's different up here, but black people simply didn't play near as big a role in Canadian history.
Wouldn't that be a far more compatible fit within an English class?
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