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John Adams
LightRider
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Have you seen this John Adams show? I think the first 2 episodes have been fantastic. Surely they gloss over a lot of things, but I love how they bring all that boring history stuff to life as I've never seen it before. HBO has always done good work with historical topics, I think, and this is probably one of their better productions. Most of it is CGI, from what I understand, but I couldn't tell at all. I'm not sure if I believe it was as dramatic and intense as they depict, but it was an absolute treat to see what they did with it. I always thought that what the early founders did was great, but I didn't really understand how mediocre it was as well. I really loved the exchange between Adams and Jefferson about the constitution, and the re visioning done by Adams and Franklin. I really like what they did with Franklin too, but I think they're treating him as too much of a caricature of himself. Not in a bad way, but hopefully he rounds out in later episodes.
Hopefully, this series helps remind people of what it took to get us to where we are as a free nation. Surely it is no coincidence that it comes out during the 5th anniversary of the war.
What do you think about it?
Hopefully, this series helps remind people of what it took to get us to where we are as a free nation. Surely it is no coincidence that it comes out during the 5th anniversary of the war.
What do you think about it?
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I especially liked that they focused a good portion of the first episode to his defense of the regiment responsible for the Boston Massacre. That is a portion of his legacy that not many people probably know about (given my American History courses in college and high school).
My dad says the shows play up John Adams, make him a real focal point, but it is a show about him. Also, it does seem the guy had a lot to do with the creation of our nation.
I'm looking forward to the War of 1812 segment now.
Wannabe writer (war, action, fantasy, history, power struggle), video gamer (strategy, simulation, action), former Soldier.
http://www.youtube.com/user/skyanimal
It's an extremely engaging show, and Giamatti is playing his heart out in it.
I found it particularly interesting as, being English, we never really studied this at school (wasn't in the curriculum for history for the couple years I studied it), so although I have a very, very vague idea that Boston got upset about tea sometime ago, I never really knew what happened. In that respect, and remembering this is a dramatisation, it's been fascinating to watch.
Plus Laura Linney.......\o/
It's like they're embarrassed about it, or something.
Well, to be fair, I only studied history until I was 14 and then I dropped it like a hot potato. So I don't know if any of this was studied in later years (I strongly doubt it though).
From what I recall, the main areas we looked at were the Roman invasion and pacification of the British Isles (which we all thought was useless to us as we were from an area of the South-West UK where the Romans never managed to get to), the war of the roses and the industrial revolution.
This was all 23 years ago though (yes that's right, I was studying this stuff years before most of you were a twinkle in the milkman's eye) so maybe things have changed since then....
I don't know how different the CIE A level on American History to any local British curriculum is, but the American History we did glossed over the revolution entirely and started essentially with westward expansion. It then jumped to the causes of the civil war.
So yeah, maybe the British are still bitter or something.
Frankly political history in general is a gigantic and stunning gap in the British curriculum, which seems stupid to me since it's one of the most relevant areas of history to our modern life.
Also, I agree with the comment about Mrs. Adams. That's a great part that is really being treated well. I'm surprised they're spending as much time on it as they are. Excellent work on that. I really liked the bit with the Pox vaccination. Medical disclosure was an entirely different animal back then.
Azulan Saul Tigh
I don't have HBO (I don't even have cable), but the first two episodes have almost convinced me to get it.
Although, HBO really does some great work that is worthy of support if you can do so.
Edited for unreasonable people.
Azulan Saul Tigh
Will it be on a basic cable channel? I know comedy central picks up a lof of HBO stuff, but this doesn't seem quite its style.
I don't think he quite understood torrent.
Azulan Saul Tigh
its like Tom Hanks is passing out candy to HBO
the book is ok, but 1776 was great too
I thought it was funny while watching it that some of my friends were clueless about much of what was happening in it. They didn't know that being a member of the Continental Congress was a hangable offense or about the Boston Massacre, which I can even name some members such as Crispus Attucks. They were also pretty clueless about the causes of the Revolution, mainly England's wanting to impose on the colonies the burden of their upkeep and the costs of the French and Indian War, Seven Years' War for all you Europeans and non-Americans.
I was amused as well that they didn't portray Thomas Jefferson's lisp, one of the reasons he never spoke in front of large groups in public or even gave a spoken State of the Union Address while he was president.
I can't wait till they have the colossus himself, Alexander Hamilton, as well.
His book on Theodore Roosevelt (Mornings on Horseback) is excellent. He's a damn fine writer.
I really like David Morse as Washington, and whoever the guy is who plays Benjamin Franklin.
Tom Wilkinson.
Really good series so far. The vaccination was so disgusting...
Also I was surprised at a founding father urging a mob to tar someone. Really fucked up scene.
Azulan Saul Tigh
It was ironic too because John Hancock really was a smuggler.
You've got to remember that British history stretches a tad further back than American history.
Hell, we've got ceremonies with silly hats that are older than your country. We've been doing the Changing of the Keys every night for about 600 years - you'd think we'd just have the lock on a timer by now.
Besides, why should we be giving you treasonous bastards any free publicity?
You'll let your guard down one day and we'll be right back burning down Washington.
Azulan Saul Tigh
The British had plans drawn up for an invasion of the U.S. up to WWI.
The colonists wanted land, wealth, and power. A number of them broke treaties with Native Americans by settling on N.A. land, or in general being mean SOB's to the Red man. This is a big reason why so many of the founding fathers were so hesitant on separating from Britain, their wealth was in British Pounds, there was no American Dollar.
The wigs and other outfits you see is an extension of lifestyle imposed by the British government on it's people. To keep people employed, every citizen was expected to own a hat. You can then see where wigs, make-up, shoe makers, etc become part of the economy with so many "Gentlemen" trying to fit the style.
And why so many Americans were so poor they barely owned two sets of clothing, one winter one summer.
War of 1812 developed because British warships would stop American ships and start grabbing British citizens, and even American citizens. Also, American privateers, because of the Napoleonic War, would raid British shipping lanes. The Americans were notorious for hiring Native Americans to fight for them, who's arrows, tomahawks, bizarre look, and war hollers would scare the whillies out of the British sailors.
On Real Time with Bill Maher, it was mentioned that in England, if Parliament receives like twenty complaints on an issue, that is enough to have it brought before a session and discussed. Something to that effect.
So it looks like the War of Independence did make some impact.
Yeah, I was curious about the dialog as well, but Deadwood has given me a new perspective on things, and in general I find it spot on and engaging.
You guys should check out "Letters of John and Abigail Adams." There are even books-on-tape/cd of them.
If you guys want a good book of the Civil War that is more of the human element, check out Jeff Shaara's "Gods and Generals." (When I heard a movie was coming out, I thought, "How will they cram all that book into a film and have it make sense?")
His father wrote the book that became the film "Gettysburg" with Martin Sheen as General Lee, and what's his name as Longstreet....
"Generals" gives you four important characters in the war and follows their stories, and it's amazing all the places those guys were before hostilities kicked off. The beginning of the book is a little slow as a result.
And History Channel will likely run "John Adams" before too long, like they did with "Band of Brothers."
heh Reminds me of a scene from Tim Burton's "Sleepy Hollow" film, the vaccination.
Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn" had a couple characters get tar and feathered.
But that scene also showed how wild and rowdy the Americans were. The Boston Massacre occured because prior to that, an American mob attacked and beat up some British soldiers, and that was because those soldiers had loaded their guns with blanks to disperse the crowd.
The Founding Fathers of the Continental Congresses were the popular and respected men of the colonies, not necessarily the best and brightest.
I mean, look at George Washington. The guy got lucky a few times, picked the right men for the right missions, and basically just sat on his behind for a few years.
I mean, if I were him and was so desperate for supplies and knew I could do little to nothing against the British, I would have likely divided up my forces, have them go on search and destroy and harrassing missions (like in Mel Gibson's "The Patriot") and just raise supplies, troops, and moral with a bunch of small victories. Any defeats would be minor to the overall effect.
The British would go nuts trying to defend all their territory from my mobile force.
Ah! Yeah, now I'm remembering John Hancock's fame. (Big signature.)
When I heard his name, I tried recalling what he did, and nothing came to mind at the time.
heh Reminds me of Arlington Cemetary in Virginia. There is always a guard posted, and even during storms the guards will stay at their duty station, even though they receive permission to not to during really inclimate weather.
The U.S. Army is older then the United States.
I hear whenever a British envoy visits Washington, D.C., they give them a tour, and show the burn marks in the basement from the War of 1812.
The thing getting me now is... Washington is sitting with his army outside of Boston and stuck and losing troops and morale, Adams is this great orator, there are all these "patriots" and loud mouths and people who can basically bully the rest into following suit, and they don't help Washington out and ignore Adams....
Guess a soldier really never can trust a politician.
Wannabe writer (war, action, fantasy, history, power struggle), video gamer (strategy, simulation, action), former Soldier.
http://www.youtube.com/user/skyanimal
Re-watching "Independence."
Abigail Adams said, "Men must be made to feel they have made the right choice." Astute woman.
Adams insults Mr. Dickinson, several men stand up.
The Quakers were big businessmen at this time (it seemed very common for a wealthy man to be a Quaker). And since he was from Pennsylvania, the place where the Congress was being held, Adams did make enemies. He essentially insulted the Quaker's rationality, logic.
"400 Patriots, dead. Not ordinary soldiers, gentlemen."
"But they took with them more then a thousand of their soldiers and a hundred of their officers." (Wow, had not heard of that before.)
Virginia, being along the Cheasepeke Bay, was afforded inhabitable land, a large bay with many natural harbors, and warm weather.
I think the Congress made a mistake by choosing Washington as general, but then again, his loyalty is unquestionable. The only other person they could approach would likely have been a retired British officer, and then that guy might go any which way (switch loyalty, not violently enough attack British soldiers).
In a wierd way, having unruly settlers and raiding Indians is what created the environment for the Independence. Settlers wanting land go into territory not allowed them, and start harassing the Indians, who start harassing back. (Indians also favored taking captives to trade since their resources were SO limited.) This resulted in the need for local militias.
The methodology of warfare was little of individual soldier training, but of formation movement and disciplined fire (to maximize the effectiveness of weapons, firing from a kneeling or prone position would send the shot into the ground). Hence contracting militiamen was a standard way for each colony to raise a defensive force and send those guys out to fight the Indians.
So, when Parliament started having the British troops get more and more violent with the colonists, this is why the troops would seize armories full of weapons, powder, cannon. These same armories served to arm the colonists, which is why Boston and Massachusetts were high on the British desires to subdue and control, not the entire colony.
From 20,000 to 5,000 men... damn. Washington really was suffering. "We've been decimated by the bloody pox. By sheer providence, the enemy has not found out about our predictament."
Adams: "How you will manage the winter in this blockade, I know not."
(Adams should have given his house to a displaced Boston family for the time being, and take his family to Philadelphia.)
Franklin: "God bless the King. For who else could have brought about such a change of unity?"
The representatives start forming their own political parties. Hence the "What you say in public versus private" moments.
New York rep: "Thousands of godless Hessians among them!"
Adams: "No, no, Mr. Dickinson. The people await us to lead the way."
"Who do you expect to aid us?"
Adams: "France."
Someone in the background: "FRANCE?!"
But who is the guy with the bandage on his head?
Wannabe writer (war, action, fantasy, history, power struggle), video gamer (strategy, simulation, action), former Soldier.
http://www.youtube.com/user/skyanimal
If I recall now, Quakers were the early "humanitarians" of their time. I can't recall if some were slave owners, but think some where.
Part of their "humanity" was because they were such devout church goers, they really had a sense of community. This is why Mr. Dickinson is so hesitant to engage in violent action, and why he cites that the blood of many, and innocents, will be on their hands if they commit to the violence.
The more I think about it, the more I love this series.
And this makes great fodder for my "Warland Chronicles" idea. I want to have a democracy formed, but instead of statesmen, veteran soldiers. (And prostitutes demanding women get equal rights as men.)
Wannabe writer (war, action, fantasy, history, power struggle), video gamer (strategy, simulation, action), former Soldier.
http://www.youtube.com/user/skyanimal
Don't Tread on Me:
Excellent episode. I loved all of it, from the grumbling about Franklin, to the really interesting take on the French. I liked the portrayal of the ocean crossing and the idea that Adams fired the first shot at the boat. This series is great.
Azulan Saul Tigh
Weird. I haven't seen this episode yet but with the last two, especially the first, I felt it was the exact opposite. So I consider this a good thing.
Eh, I wasn't taking a general history/British history course. I was taking an American history one, one that happened to be written for the CIE curriculum. And to leave the Revolution out of an American history course is just retarded.
Also, I really liked this bit:
Franklin: This is Mr. Adams.
*French Lady beams*
French Lady: Samuel Adams?
Franklin: Ah... No... John Adams.
*French Lady's smile fades a bit*
Something surprised me, though. I'd always seen the political cartoon with the segmented snake, "Join or Die," etc, but I was never told it became such a symbol for the colonies (or at least, Sam Adams and his people that I can't remember the name of). Is that an accurate depiction or are they kind of just throwing it in there, using it more than the colonists actually did?
Unfortunately I had to stop in the middle of the 2nd episode cause I have to leave for work in a few, but really good so far.
A quick google search came up with this:
First it was a political cartoon by Franklin, then
It is great.
Azulan Saul Tigh