also, I read someone’s asinine statement in the other thread "stealth is only fun for the one stealthing" and never got a chance to throw in my two ducats. let me toss up a few counter points
Lobbing a giant fireball is only fun for the one casting it
being able to attack from 40+ yards away is only fun for the guy who can
being nigh immune to melee damage is only fun for the one with high AC
being able to go from near dead to full health in one cast is only fun for the guy who can do it
being able to quickly close the distance between you and your target
see a pattern? Everything sucks unless you can do it, that's everyone’s default attitude towards stuff in games like this
also the system they are using for stealth look EXTREMELY similar to that of the infiltrator in SWG.
My guess? 100 pages, or close enough to it that they just jumped threads.
Edit: 102 pages, actually. PA forum policy is to lock threads over 100 pages long and start new ones in order to keep the threads readily accessible to Average Joe Newb.
delroland on
EVE: Online - the most fun you will ever have not playing a game.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
also, I read someone’s asinine statement in the other thread "stealth is only fun for the one stealthing" and never got a chance to throw in my two ducats. let me toss up a few counter points
Lobbing a giant fireball is only fun for the one casting it
being able to attack from 40+ yards away is only fun for the guy who can
being nigh immune to melee damage is only fun for the one with high AC
being able to go from near dead to full health in one cast is only fun for the guy who can do it
being able to quickly close the distance between you and your target
see a pattern? Everything sucks unless you can do it, that's everyone’s default attitude towards stuff in games like this
also the system they are using for stealth look EXTREMELY similar to that of the infiltrator in SWG.
If you maintain that other mechanics have the potential to be inherently one-sided how can you call my statement asinine? You're essentially agreeing with that statement in itself, you may however disagree with the assertion that we are better off without the mechanic, as that's pretty much the implied solution here.
To that I would say you can easily remove stealth from a game, but it would be a lot more difficult to remove the ability to deal damage or heal.
Do we have pics of these fuckin' CE heads or what?
That's really what's got me on the fence about the CE, some god damn heads.
there better be chops out to the fuckin shoulders on a witch hunter CE head
And the head had better randomly emote /bub a lot.
That might bring up too many bad memories of Van Helsing.
Aww... Van Helsing isn't that bad. At least the character is kitted out right, and the Hyde fight is a good indication of capability, though in WH he would have burned down the cathedral and executed any witnesses to prevent even the possibility of a spread of heresy.
Man, I hope there are some Empire quests that have you taking out "corrupted" citizens.
delroland on
EVE: Online - the most fun you will ever have not playing a game.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
If a classes function is based off of being able to enter or escape combat safely (stealth/invisibility) then it's harder to remove it. They would have to be compensated hugely, either by drastically raising something like AC, avoidability, DPS, or incapacitations. Stealth is a survival tactic, like high AC or healing...or being able to blast the opponent before they can reach you.
Also it's not the damage it's how it's dealt, every class deals damage not everyone does it the same way.
I wouldn't be against taking stealth out if I knew they added something else that would make up for the lost survivability. I've seen lots of the melee classes have ways to counter act ranged attacks while they attempt to get in the face of there target and do some damage, would you want them to take that out too since it achieves the same function (or goal) as stealth in combat?
The statement is asinine because it was accompanied by the usual anti-stealth/caster rhetoric "they make my class not fun because I can't stand around and rain death uninterrupted" some hyperbole, but the point was made.
One...one more thing, I know being able to ninja magic disappear in broad daylight is silly, but it really is the only practical way to implement sneaky classes into video games. Until we are all lying in goopods and playing matrix style where we have full control of a character’s body, this is a logical solution to those who like to sneak around. Making a class who is only half effective if some rocks and bushes are around is just poor character planing.
sleepdeamon on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2008
Ah good, I can close the old thread now.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
If a classes function is based off of being able to enter or escape combat safely (stealth/invisibility) then it's harder to remove it. They would have to be compensated hugely, either by drastically raising something like AC, avoidability, DPS, or incapacitations. Stealth is a survival tactic, like high AC or healing...or being able to blast the opponent before they can reach you.
Also it's not the damage it's how it's dealt, every class deals damage not everyone does it the same way.
You're assuming we create a class around stealth and then remove the mechanic, this is not the case with WAR and it's not really the case in any sane hypothetical.
I very much agree that "it's not damage it's how it's dealt" is an accurate description of fundamental RPG mechanics, but your earlier point that every class has mechanics that aren't fun for the other player seems to suggest that every form of dealing damage is either wholly valid or invalid. It may very well be that some ways of dealing damage are valid, or at least more valid and some are not. In which case the assertion that stealth is not valid or less valid does not automatically invalidated itself. Hey, it could be that hurling fireballs for 99% of your health bar and or healing to full instantly while doing significant damage are also bullshit.
I wouldn't be against taking stealth out if I knew they added something else that would make up for the lost survivability. I've seen lots of the melee classes have ways to counter act ranged attacks while they attempt to get in the face of there target and do some damage, would you want them to take that out too since it achieves the same function (or goal) as stealth in combat?
See above. Of course the absence of stealth would be balanced with a less aggravating mechanic.
The statement is asinine because it was accompanied by the usual anti-stealth/caster rhetoric "they make my class not fun because I can't stand around and rain death uninterrupted" some hyperbole, but the point was made.
Actually, you're inferring a great deal. I didn't say they make my class not fun I said;
"Stealth is great for people who have it, and fucking bullshit for everyone else." I didn't even specify beyond that. Whatever you're extrapolating from "bullshit" I can pretty much say was not my intention. I will concede that the statement is vague and so any real argument here is only my fault for not elaborating enough. I do concur with you in terms of the way in which non-stealth melee DPS classes should function.
One...one more thing, I know being able to ninja magic disappear in broad daylight is silly, but it really is the only practical way to implement sneaky classes into video games. Until we are all lying in goopods and playing matrix style where we have full control of a character’s body, this is a logical solution to those who like to sneak around. Making a class who is only half effective if some rocks and bushes are around is just poor character planing.
Well see, I could care less if there are sneaky classes in an MMO. Again, my previous statements don't advocate designing a class around stealth and then removing it.
As I said in the last thread, the ability to stealth is never the problem, it's always the abilities that various mmo's have given to stealth classes.
Without allowing stealth classes to do overly powerful things in stealth related situations like stunlock, huge front loaded damage, or undetected ranged damage, stealth is fine. With stealth being limited to melee classes, and having it drain AP this makes none of those problems likely to occur.
You're left with what steath should be, a cool tactical ability that helps to break things up a bit.
If a classes function is based off of being able to enter or escape combat safely (stealth/invisibility) then it's harder to remove it. They would have to be compensated hugely, either by drastically raising something like AC, avoidability, DPS, or incapacitations. Stealth is a survival tactic, like high AC or healing...or being able to blast the opponent before they can reach you.
Also it's not the damage it's how it's dealt, every class deals damage not everyone does it the same way.
You're assuming we create a class around stealth and then remove the mechanic, this is not the case with WAR and it's not really the case in any sane hypothetical.
I very much agree that "it's not damage it's how it's dealt" is an accurate description of fundamental RPG mechanics, but your earlier point that every class has mechanics that aren't fun for the other player seems to suggest that every form of dealing damage is either wholly valid or invalid. It may very well be that some ways of dealing damage are valid, or at least more valid and some are not. In which case the assertion that stealth is not valid or less valid does not automatically invalidated itself. Hey, it could be that hurling fireballs for 99% of your health bar and or healing to full instantly while doing significant damage are also bullshit.
I wouldn't be against taking stealth out if I knew they added something else that would make up for the lost survivability. I've seen lots of the melee classes have ways to counter act ranged attacks while they attempt to get in the face of there target and do some damage, would you want them to take that out too since it achieves the same function (or goal) as stealth in combat?
See above. Of course the absence of stealth would be balanced with a less aggravating mechanic.
The statement is asinine because it was accompanied by the usual anti-stealth/caster rhetoric "they make my class not fun because I can't stand around and rain death uninterrupted" some hyperbole, but the point was made.
Actually, you're inferring a great deal. I didn't say they make my class not fun I said;
"Stealth is great for people who have it, and fucking bullshit for everyone else." I didn't even specify beyond that. Whatever you're extrapolating from "bullshit" I can pretty much say was not my intention. I will concede that the statement is vague and so any real argument here is only my fault for not elaborating enough. I do concur with you in terms of the way in which non-stealth melee DPS classes should function.
One...one more thing, I know being able to ninja magic disappear in broad daylight is silly, but it really is the only practical way to implement sneaky classes into video games. Until we are all lying in goopods and playing matrix style where we have full control of a character’s body, this is a logical solution to those who like to sneak around. Making a class who is only half effective if some rocks and bushes are around is just poor character planing.
Well see, I could care less if there are sneaky classes in an MMO. Again, my previous statements don't advocate designing a class around stealth and then removing it.
I was attempting to lump a page and a half or so of stealth bashing in what seemed like a good banner statment for the whole conversation, it just to have been what you said that stood out. It's not that the class were designed around stealth, but it appears stealth was chosen as their means of survival. as long as RPG's have been around players have almost always fallen into 4 archtypes (melee brute, nuker, cleric, sneaky tactical guy). I know traditions change, but good ones shouldn't, leaving out something like would make the game seem less appealing to a large chunk of gamers (this is a business after all). and i agree they have implimented (if implimented) it in a good way by making it non-permanent so it has to be used in a much more tactical fashion.
As I said in the last thread, the ability to stealth is never the problem, it's always the abilities that various mmo's have given to stealth classes.
Without allowing stealth classes to do overly powerful things in stealth related situations like stunlock, huge front loaded damage, or undetected ranged damage, stealth is fine. With stealth being limited to melee classes, and having it drain AP this makes none of those problems likely to occur.
You're left with what steath should be, a cool tactical ability that helps to break things up a bit.
I agree with all this right here. Stealth didn't piss me off in WoW, it was INFINITE undetectability and the ability to stunlock you into next Tuesday that got to me.
I don't see that being an issue in WAR (stealth draining AP, designers don't like stuns) so I can't really say too much about it.
From what I've heard it's like WoW stealth with a short interruptible cast time, and an AP drain that de stealths you if you fully run out. There is positional detection, ie being behind someone decreases detection chance. That's pretty much all I've been able to find out, but it's enough to get a general idea.
So wait, what have the Dev's said about stealth? This would be a pretty huge change considering their initial statements on stealth.
A couple videos of some one being semi-transparent doesn't automatically equal stealth.
The devs had said nothing about stealth if I recall, but the Witch Hunter mastery update sure made it sound like they were taking a stealthy approach to the class.
I hate it when people complain about complaining about complainable stuff.
Is complainable a word?
If it is, is stealth complainable?
If so, put me squarely in the "it's the abilities that go along with it, and being completely invisible in plain view that sucks" camp. With a dash of "let's see what actually happens on release".
Being harder to see behind a tree, or sneaking up on someone without having a giant floaty name... those are cool, as long as you can't pull WoW-style stunlock shenanigans.
I'd love a system based on cover/light, the strategic combat would be amazing, and you'd get cool things in pvp areas like flushing stealthers out of woods etc. I only wonder if that would feel too restrictive. /shrug.
I'd love a system based on cover/light, the strategic combat would be amazing, and you'd get cool things in pvp areas like flushing stealthers out of woods etc. I only wonder if that would feel too restrictive. /shrug.
Restrictive, like it has to be done every time? What if you just had a few groups of tanks facing the cover?
I hate it when people complain about complaining about complainable stuff.
Is complainable a word?
If it is, is stealth complainable?
If so, put me squarely in the "it's the abilities that go along with it, and being completely invisible in plain view that sucks" camp. With a dash of "let's see what actually happens on release".
Being harder to see behind a tree, or sneaking up on someone without having a giant floaty name... those are cool, as long as you can't pull WoW-style stunlock shenanigans.
No
Yes
Ditto
Yes
My RL buddies and I are excited about WAR for a great many reasons but one of the biggest was the "no stealth" comments the devs made. Hell one of the devs even said stelath is only fun for the person who is stealthed! For this reason I will give them the benefit of the doubt but the idea of any lame invisible in plain sight stealth annoys me endlessly.
Ah, no I meant for the stealthers, I mean they've been pretty spoiled by games like DAoC and WoW where you can stealth anywhere. All of a sudden they have to think and use cover? heh, just saying I could see why they'd get annoyed. I'd still love it.
Anything that pisses off someone who played a Night Elf Rogue makes my day. For this very reason, I'd hope any stealth or stealth-like mechanic in WAR functions vastly different as to be frustrating for those folks.
edit: ook. That witch hunter ran down a road toward five guys stealthed and got off an attack without being seen. Won't ruin the game, but that's kinda lame.
Also, still no landing animation after jumping. That looks so weird.
yeah the video was ok, i couldn't get past how bad that guy was at playing (random french...might have been german i heard a lot of german chatter in the background) it, it looked like he'd never picked up an MMO before, clicking abillities, using the wasd keys to turn, super akward on the battlefeild, couldn't pick a good tactical target for dick. I wish they could at least display videos of people playing who knew what the hell they were doing.
EDIT: oh by page 100 it will be 2009 late 3rd quarter, the game still wont be out and we will be arguing about how over powered seige cod-peices will be
Guh, there still isn't a decent place to grab the CE from when you're in Holland. Except play.com. Which charges €85. And requires a CC I don't have.
It'd be nice if we had even one brick&mortar store that carried it. Really.
From what I've heard it's like WoW stealth with a short interruptible cast time, and an AP drain that de stealths you if you fully run out. There is positional detection, ie being behind someone decreases detection chance. That's pretty much all I've been able to find out, but it's enough to get a general idea.
Gameplay aside I thought those paris vids showed a significant improvement in the graphics engine. Even in low res everything seemed smoother than in the last round of vids I'd seen.
Posts
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
Especially elves.
also, I read someone’s asinine statement in the other thread "stealth is only fun for the one stealthing" and never got a chance to throw in my two ducats. let me toss up a few counter points
Lobbing a giant fireball is only fun for the one casting it
being able to attack from 40+ yards away is only fun for the guy who can
being nigh immune to melee damage is only fun for the one with high AC
being able to go from near dead to full health in one cast is only fun for the guy who can do it
being able to quickly close the distance between you and your target
see a pattern? Everything sucks unless you can do it, that's everyone’s default attitude towards stuff in games like this
also the system they are using for stealth look EXTREMELY similar to that of the infiltrator in SWG.
That's really what's got me on the fence about the CE, some god damn heads.
My guess? 100 pages, or close enough to it that they just jumped threads.
Edit: 102 pages, actually. PA forum policy is to lock threads over 100 pages long and start new ones in order to keep the threads readily accessible to Average Joe Newb.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
there better be chops out to the fuckin shoulders on a witch hunter CE head
And the head had better randomly emote /bub a lot.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
That might bring up too many bad memories of Van Helsing.
If you maintain that other mechanics have the potential to be inherently one-sided how can you call my statement asinine? You're essentially agreeing with that statement in itself, you may however disagree with the assertion that we are better off without the mechanic, as that's pretty much the implied solution here.
To that I would say you can easily remove stealth from a game, but it would be a lot more difficult to remove the ability to deal damage or heal.
Aww... Van Helsing isn't that bad. At least the character is kitted out right, and the Hyde fight is a good indication of capability, though in WH he would have burned down the cathedral and executed any witnesses to prevent even the possibility of a spread of heresy.
Man, I hope there are some Empire quests that have you taking out "corrupted" citizens.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
You win this thread.
No.
Seriously.
Margaret Thatcher
Also it's not the damage it's how it's dealt, every class deals damage not everyone does it the same way.
I wouldn't be against taking stealth out if I knew they added something else that would make up for the lost survivability. I've seen lots of the melee classes have ways to counter act ranged attacks while they attempt to get in the face of there target and do some damage, would you want them to take that out too since it achieves the same function (or goal) as stealth in combat?
The statement is asinine because it was accompanied by the usual anti-stealth/caster rhetoric "they make my class not fun because I can't stand around and rain death uninterrupted" some hyperbole, but the point was made.
One...one more thing, I know being able to ninja magic disappear in broad daylight is silly, but it really is the only practical way to implement sneaky classes into video games. Until we are all lying in goopods and playing matrix style where we have full control of a character’s body, this is a logical solution to those who like to sneak around. Making a class who is only half effective if some rocks and bushes are around is just poor character planing.
You're assuming we create a class around stealth and then remove the mechanic, this is not the case with WAR and it's not really the case in any sane hypothetical.
I very much agree that "it's not damage it's how it's dealt" is an accurate description of fundamental RPG mechanics, but your earlier point that every class has mechanics that aren't fun for the other player seems to suggest that every form of dealing damage is either wholly valid or invalid. It may very well be that some ways of dealing damage are valid, or at least more valid and some are not. In which case the assertion that stealth is not valid or less valid does not automatically invalidated itself. Hey, it could be that hurling fireballs for 99% of your health bar and or healing to full instantly while doing significant damage are also bullshit.
See above. Of course the absence of stealth would be balanced with a less aggravating mechanic.
Actually, you're inferring a great deal. I didn't say they make my class not fun I said;
"Stealth is great for people who have it, and fucking bullshit for everyone else." I didn't even specify beyond that. Whatever you're extrapolating from "bullshit" I can pretty much say was not my intention. I will concede that the statement is vague and so any real argument here is only my fault for not elaborating enough. I do concur with you in terms of the way in which non-stealth melee DPS classes should function.
Well see, I could care less if there are sneaky classes in an MMO. Again, my previous statements don't advocate designing a class around stealth and then removing it.
Without allowing stealth classes to do overly powerful things in stealth related situations like stunlock, huge front loaded damage, or undetected ranged damage, stealth is fine. With stealth being limited to melee classes, and having it drain AP this makes none of those problems likely to occur.
You're left with what steath should be, a cool tactical ability that helps to break things up a bit.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
edit: Or not, otherwise I'd have to punch my wife right now.
I was attempting to lump a page and a half or so of stealth bashing in what seemed like a good banner statment for the whole conversation, it just to have been what you said that stood out. It's not that the class were designed around stealth, but it appears stealth was chosen as their means of survival. as long as RPG's have been around players have almost always fallen into 4 archtypes (melee brute, nuker, cleric, sneaky tactical guy). I know traditions change, but good ones shouldn't, leaving out something like would make the game seem less appealing to a large chunk of gamers (this is a business after all). and i agree they have implimented (if implimented) it in a good way by making it non-permanent so it has to be used in a much more tactical fashion.
I agree with all this right here. Stealth didn't piss me off in WoW, it was INFINITE undetectability and the ability to stunlock you into next Tuesday that got to me.
I don't see that being an issue in WAR (stealth draining AP, designers don't like stuns) so I can't really say too much about it.
A couple videos of some one being semi-transparent doesn't automatically equal stealth.
I like it.
Ed- Paris vids on the tube.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
The devs had said nothing about stealth if I recall, but the Witch Hunter mastery update sure made it sound like they were taking a stealthy approach to the class.
Is complainable a word?
If it is, is stealth complainable?
If so, put me squarely in the "it's the abilities that go along with it, and being completely invisible in plain view that sucks" camp. With a dash of "let's see what actually happens on release".
Being harder to see behind a tree, or sneaking up on someone without having a giant floaty name... those are cool, as long as you can't pull WoW-style stunlock shenanigans.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
Restrictive, like it has to be done every time? What if you just had a few groups of tanks facing the cover?
No
Yes
Ditto
Yes
My RL buddies and I are excited about WAR for a great many reasons but one of the biggest was the "no stealth" comments the devs made. Hell one of the devs even said stelath is only fun for the person who is stealthed! For this reason I will give them the benefit of the doubt but the idea of any lame invisible in plain sight stealth annoys me endlessly.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
edit: ook. That witch hunter ran down a road toward five guys stealthed and got off an attack without being seen. Won't ruin the game, but that's kinda lame.
Also, still no landing animation after jumping. That looks so weird.
Anybody want to wager on what we'll be complaining about by page 100 this time?
EDIT: oh by page 100 it will be 2009 late 3rd quarter, the game still wont be out and we will be arguing about how over powered seige cod-peices will be
It'd be nice if we had even one brick&mortar store that carried it. Really.
This
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
Man, that guy was painful to watch. It's almost like he was trying to suck. Thanks for the link though.
I think it's safe to say we won't be complaining about anything actually in-game from first-hand experience.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat