Yeah the Adepticon guys are making a rules change on that one, but the FAQ is generally pretty well-recieved by alot of people. If anything, it provides a clear, thought-out ruling on a number of issues, which is something GW has been unable to provide as of late.
Stationary units charging after firing rapid fire weapons is already addressed in the rule book, or at least my copy. On page 36 of the mini book from the starter set there is a note in italics with the following text:
"Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing."
So that would override the restrictions in the rapid fire weapons section. No need for an external FAQ as far as I can see.
Nice! This one might not be in the big book, I don't have one of the little ones.
So which is right? I have both, but usually just truck the little one to games. Not that big of a deal, but could come in useful.
And, my only 2 cents on Tyranids at 1000 pts. is that they suck. They don't get the numbers they need to be effective while also maintaining things like anti-tank or the cool psychic powers. My Nid list at 1000 points was lots of Warriors and Hormagaunts. And I had a hard time with IG armies with tanks...but I did real well against everything else.
Also consider saving points on the Dakkafex by just giving it enhanced senses and 2 twin-linked devourers. Just my preference.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
What I've heard of warmachine/Hordes is it's much easier to get wiped out with a better list because you have much less squads and becuase the tactically-oriented rules favor optimized matchups of units and can counter major parts of an opponent's choices with the right luck. in Warhammer you can lose whole units or characters and still win the game by wounding a greater number/cost of units or capturing objectives.
Thing is about short-range and close combat units is you still have to play them a bit defensively; utilize cover, deny the enemy of line of sight and firing lanes, flanking, hold onto territory, etc. Scooting straight across the board in the open just isn't good tactics, but it's simpler and more intuitive to do this with units that can Fleet or have Assault weapons or multiple attacks than with shooters, so the later gets kept behind a tank or in a building and thus has an easier time fulfilling their role.
Orks and Tyranids are primarily horde armies, melee-oriented but hordes in much of their ranged tactics as well (particularly Orks). Both have a lot of composition options, but some thought on overall strategy with puposeful choices to round off the list is needed. Especially Tyranids; I have yet to hear of units that don't mesh well with "a couple big mobs of boyz/several Trukk boyz".
The real roadblock all this time has of course been that Clawshrimpy has the strategic sense of a toad. Even when he plans a decent unbloated list, for whatever reason it doesn't enable him to start wargaming off as competitive against veteran players. Any advice or reasoning subsequently given to him to alter his lists in cheap and minor ways (adding or subtracing a few models, picking up an extra unit, leaving off some options) to improve it are dismissed in frustration because they don't fit 'his' idea of strategy or composition. And so we're stuck in an endless cycle of Shrimpy being unwilling to consider semi-competitive choices but still wanting to win regularly as a novice toad-minded tactician.
What ever happened to those Blood Angels, anyway? Good golly I miss those.
A big part of it is the gamer's fault anyway - when my buddies started with Tyranid and Eldar and Orks and Chaos, we bought like 6 of those huge bags of round bases and proxied everything - we even traced the tanks onto cardstock. Playing like this allowed us to ask "What would I like to field" and then take it 1 step further than most people and say "Now how can I refine it to be effective so I can collect the models".
Re: I just want to take what I want and do well, that's never going to hold 100% true for any game you play.
Lol "Hello other side, your grass is awfully green"
Warmachine and Hordes are much more league/tourney friendly, if you take some stuff just because it looks neat you are much more likely to lose quickly in those games. People play it because giant steampunk shit is a cool departure from the whole 'grim darkness of the far future' thing, not because its a mecca of game design.
But isn't 40K much worse with this, what with beardyness and min/maxing and Assault Cannons and list effciency and everything like that?
No, if you bring a solid list that has been fairly well pared down and you play it effectively then you will do well in most environments. The whole ''minmax beardy cheese'' thing is usually an exaggeration by people who aren't in a very competitive environment.
A big part of it is the gamer's fault anyway - when my buddies started with Tyranid and Eldar and Orks and Chaos, we bought like 6 of those huge bags of round bases and proxied everything - we even traced the tanks onto cardstock. Playing like this allowed us to ask "What would I like to field" and then take it 1 step further than most people and say "Now how can I refine it to be effective so I can collect the models".
Re: I just want to take what I want and do well, that's never going to hold 100% true for any game you play.
Hah, that sounds like my friends and I playing Space Marine - no way were we buying all those plastic Rhinos and Stormblades on pocket money.
Claw,
While your armylist could use some tweaking (I would personally up the number of gaunts to closer to 40, as they really shine in 1000 point games at that level), I'm curious about your tactics. How much terrain you are using, and how are you setting it up? Are your opponents primarily gunlines, assault armies or mobile firepower? It's easy to focus too much on armylists in 40k, the game is more tactical then people give it credit for, so maybe we can help you with your tactics as well.
Very Tank Heavy, Tau Battle-armors, Leman Russes, stuff like that.
Thoguh, there are other things to fight, like Da Boyz, and Eldar.
My thing is, is that, for wanting to do a lot of Melee combat and stuff, it's jsut so hard to pull off in 40K than shooting is. The armies that do melee combat exceptonally well, Orks and Tyranids, seem to have a pretty steep learning curve, now that I've played both. Man, I'd just play Warmachine and Hordes, but, they're so unpopular for god knows why. 40K is all people care about here in Toledo. I'd love to find a stronger Privateer Press userbase, but I can't seem to find it.
If you are running against a lot of vehicles then try and focus on just stunning the shootiest ones while you move your assault stuff up (another shooty 'fex in place of the 'thropes would be more consistent), don't worry as much about destroying them, if you can get anything to their lines destroying will follow. When you set up terrian, try and throw it all in the middle of the table in a big line. Against both Tau and Guard try and use your hormagaunts to tie up units that block the line of sight of other units, or you can do what I do with my Blood Angels and push all your stuff down the same flank, essentially denying all kinds of shooting from the other. If you use the terrain right (assuming you are playing with enough), no tau or guard army should get more then 1 good round of shooting against your army.
Also, try and move your stuff so that everything move out into the open on the same turn right before you charge, target saturation, if this means holding certain things back for a turn it's fine. The best Tyranid players I know don't just charge blindly ahead and actually withdraw their genestealers sometimes to ensure they get a charge in at the right time.
Against assault oriented armies like orks, throw your gaunts out front and hold your stealers back for the counter charge. In general you are trying to force your opponent to deal with the gaunts (which are quite deadly themselves in great numbers) while your even deadlier things are right behind them. Against fast armies like Eldar it's a bit tougher because you need to pin them down, try and encircle them and force them into a corner where they can't maneuver, Eldar units excel at a single thing generally, and will fold like napkins if countered correctly.
In general, with assault armies, it's important to have a strong plan for the battle and to use terrain effectively, think ahead about your movement and where you will get by each turn. Hope that helps!
Thing is about short-range and close combat units is you still have to play them a bit defensively; utilize cover, deny the enemy of line of sight and firing lanes, flanking, hold onto territory, etc. Scooting straight across the board in the open just isn't good tactics, but it's simpler and more intuitive to do this with units that can Fleet or have Assault weapons or multiple attacks than with shooters, so the later gets kept behind a tank or in a building and thus has an easier time fulfilling their role.
Orks and Tyranids are primarily horde armies, melee-oriented but hordes in much of their ranged tactics as well (particularly Orks). Both have a lot of composition options, but some thought on overall strategy with puposeful choices to round off the list is needed. Especially Tyranids; I have yet to hear of units that don't mesh well with "a couple big mobs of boyz/several Trukk boyz".
The real roadblock all this time has of course been that Clawshrimpy has the strategic sense of a toad. Even when he plans a decent unbloated list, for whatever reason it doesn't enable him to start wargaming off as competitive against veteran players. Any advice or reasoning subsequently given to him to alter his lists in cheap and minor ways (adding or subtracing a few models, picking up an extra unit, leaving off some options) to improve it are dismissed in frustration because they don't fit 'his' idea of strategy or composition. And so we're stuck in an endless cycle of Shrimpy being unwilling to consider semi-competitive choices but still wanting to win regularly as a novice toad-minded tactician.
What ever happened to those Blood Angels, anyway? Good golly I miss those.
I mostly kitbashed them and sold them off. Better they be useful to someone.
FYI for small points nid games, units like the Stealer and Flyrant or a walkrant squad are pretty jesus because they are very powerful and the opponent isnt likely to have enough firepower to deal with them effectively.
And, my only 2 cents on Tyranids at 1000 pts. is that they suck.
There is a Tyranid player at my store with an undefeated 1K Nid Army, I've played against it a few times, it's really nasty, he takes hardly any upgrades. I don't remember the specifics of the list, but it's something like 60 gaunts, 1 squad of stealers, 4 MC.
You can also be a total prick, and field 6 ripper bases and 5 MC's in 1000 points
One of the old Tyranid codexs let you take single spore mines as troops, so you take 2 5point spore mines to fill out your troops.
Nids are really strong in small pts games because alot of the things available to them can be difficult to counter when you can't spend alot of points on heavy weapons.
Everyone wants to use what they like and do well. When I play warcraft3 I want to use all gyrocopters because they are cool. When I play TF2 I want to use the broken bottle all the time because I think it is a sweet weapon, but I don't want to score any less points than the guy that uses his grenade launcher. I want to field an entire army of Pariahs because the fluff is neat. Unfortunately you have to make concessions to balance, rather than just buying stuff, making a list out of it, and being unhappy when it doesn't perform well. Warmachine won't change that either.
Everyone wants to use what they like and do well. When I play warcraft3 I want to use all gyrocopters because they are cool. When I play TF2 I want to use the broken bottle all the time because I think it is a sweet weapon, but I don't want to score any less points than the guy that uses his grenade launcher. I want to field an entire army of Pariahs because the fluff is neat. Unfortunately you have to make concessions to balance, rather than just buying stuff, making a list out of it, and being unhappy when it doesn't perform well. Warmachine won't change that either.
What I liked about Warmachine is that I don't have to worry about things like Wargear, and choosing weapons and equipment for everything, just one problem, people who actually play Privateer Press games, are kinda rare around here.
everyone has to play the game that's so much harder. I want to be able to play and socialise with people, but not when it's so hard for me to learn at all.
ABd for the record, I act this way because I want to use what I like, and not feel punished for it.
Zoanthropes are so cool and should not be as useless as people say they are.
Then field a Zoanthrope or 2 or 3 or whatever. It's your choice, and it's your army, and it's your decision how much fun you have with it.
If you feel "punished" because you don't win all the time then you can do 2 things:
1. Switch up the army to something generally more accepted as "good", and learn the strategies and tactics behind these cookie-cutter lists
2. Learn to play with what you have and develop your own strategies and tactics.
I prefer option 2, because it challenges people more tactically. It's easy to go on the Internet, collate a bunch of lists and then just take a derivative of those lists. Or you can take what you want, and learn to be competitive with something that might not appear so to the majority of most people.
It's all a choice, and really it's up to you.
It's weird to me you find that 40K is harder then warmachine. I had a super hard time in Warmachine keeping up with all the expansions and what each new unit's abilities and special rules were. And it was usually that sort of ignorance that cost me games, because someone would do something that I didn't even know they could do, even when I was looking at their cards. It's too much like Magic to me.
You're right, I guess my thing is, I generally feel really nervous about any strategies I come up with, because let's face it. This is the only strategy game I've been any good at. and a niche beyond niche Strategy JRPG with Super Robots is very different from a tabletop war game.
Everyone wants to use what they like and do well. When I play warcraft3 I want to use all gyrocopters because they are cool. When I play TF2 I want to use the broken bottle all the time because I think it is a sweet weapon, but I don't want to score any less points than the guy that uses his grenade launcher. I want to field an entire army of Pariahs because the fluff is neat. Unfortunately you have to make concessions to balance, rather than just buying stuff, making a list out of it, and being unhappy when it doesn't perform well. Warmachine won't change that either.
What I liked about Warmachine is that I don't have to worry about things like Wargear, and choosing weapons and equipment for everything, just one problem, people who actually play Privateer Press games, are kinda rare around here.
everyone has to play the game that's so much harder.
You don't choose wargear, you just choose the guy that happens to have different wargear.
GW system is this:
Light warjack 50 pts
rocket 20 pts
shield 20 pts
mace 30 pts
Privateer system is this:
Light warjack w/ rocket and shield 90 pts
Light warjack w/ shield and mace 100 pts
(no option for rocket/mace)
And most models have different POW/ARM so you are always rolling "Dice minus one for this guy, this guy swings and does dice +2 for his damage in this d6 column, and then this guy is swinging but his weapon master adds a d6, my lords power makes him -2 ARM, and he gets a +2 because you are prone, and a -1 for this guy" etc etc etc.
It's not hard, but it's not really any simpler, and since almost every jack has a different weapon/attack rating you end up tracking the same/more weapons anyway.
ABd for the record, I act this way because I want to use what I like, and not feel punished for it.
Zoanthropes are so cool and should not be as useless as people say they are.
Then field a Zoanthrope or 2 or 3 or whatever. It's your choice, and it's your army, and it's your decision how much fun you have with it.
If you feel "punished" because you don't win all the time then you can do 2 things:
1. Switch up the army to something generally more accepted as "good", and learn the strategies and tactics behind these cookie-cutter lists
2. Learn to play with what you have and develop your own strategies and tactics.
I prefer option 2, because it challenges people more tactically. It's easy to go on the Internet, collate a bunch of lists and then just take a derivative of those lists. Or you can take what you want, and learn to be competitive with something that might not appear so to the majority of most people.
It's all a choice, and really it's up to you.
It's weird to me you find that 40K is harder then warmachine. I had a super hard time in Warmachine keeping up with all the expansions and what each new unit's abilities and special rules were. And it was usually that sort of ignorance that cost me games, because someone would do something that I didn't even know they could do, even when I was looking at their cards. It's too much like Magic to me.
I wouldn't exactly say ''cookie-cutter'' like it's a bad thing. I think if Shrimp were to take an established archetypical list and then make a couple modifications to suit him he could really get into the tactics on the board; it's handy for new players because they normally fail because of a bad list and bad tactics, so you eliminate the bad list problem and let them work on the tactics without worrying.
ABd for the record, I act this way because I want to use what I like, and not feel punished for it.
Zoanthropes are so cool and should not be as useless as people say they are.
Then field a Zoanthrope or 2 or 3 or whatever. It's your choice, and it's your army, and it's your decision how much fun you have with it.
If you feel "punished" because you don't win all the time then you can do 2 things:
1. Switch up the army to something generally more accepted as "good", and learn the strategies and tactics behind these cookie-cutter lists
2. Learn to play with what you have and develop your own strategies and tactics.
I prefer option 2, because it challenges people more tactically. It's easy to go on the Internet, collate a bunch of lists and then just take a derivative of those lists. Or you can take what you want, and learn to be competitive with something that might not appear so to the majority of most people.
It's all a choice, and really it's up to you.
It's weird to me you find that 40K is harder then warmachine. I had a super hard time in Warmachine keeping up with all the expansions and what each new unit's abilities and special rules were. And it was usually that sort of ignorance that cost me games, because someone would do something that I didn't even know they could do, even when I was looking at their cards. It's too much like Magic to me.
I wouldn't exactly say ''cookie-cutter'' like it's a bad thing. I think if Shrimp were to take an established archetypical list and then make a couple modifications to suit him he could really get into the tactics on the board; it's handy for new players because they normally fail because of a bad list and bad tactics, so you eliminate the bad list problem and let them work on the tactics without worrying.
Yeah, but is it any fun if you just take what everyone else takes? what if you want to be unique? does being unique allways mean you'll never be able to put up much of a fight and lose all your models in 3 turns or less?
ABd for the record, I act this way because I want to use what I like, and not feel punished for it.
Zoanthropes are so cool and should not be as useless as people say they are.
Then field a Zoanthrope or 2 or 3 or whatever. It's your choice, and it's your army, and it's your decision how much fun you have with it.
If you feel "punished" because you don't win all the time then you can do 2 things:
1. Switch up the army to something generally more accepted as "good", and learn the strategies and tactics behind these cookie-cutter lists
2. Learn to play with what you have and develop your own strategies and tactics.
I prefer option 2, because it challenges people more tactically. It's easy to go on the Internet, collate a bunch of lists and then just take a derivative of those lists. Or you can take what you want, and learn to be competitive with something that might not appear so to the majority of most people.
It's all a choice, and really it's up to you.
It's weird to me you find that 40K is harder then warmachine. I had a super hard time in Warmachine keeping up with all the expansions and what each new unit's abilities and special rules were. And it was usually that sort of ignorance that cost me games, because someone would do something that I didn't even know they could do, even when I was looking at their cards. It's too much like Magic to me.
I wouldn't exactly say ''cookie-cutter'' like it's a bad thing. I think if Shrimp were to take an established archetypical list and then make a couple modifications to suit him he could really get into the tactics on the board; it's handy for new players because they normally fail because of a bad list and bad tactics, so you eliminate the bad list problem and let them work on the tactics without worrying.
The problem is that the lists like that won't have the units he wants to take. It's a Catch-22 for him. But I agree with you Mike it is easier to learn that way. Like always, it just comes down to a matter of preference.
It's not that I'm losing, it's that I'm losing very badly, and it kind of alienates me from the gaming group for being awkward, I feel like everyone is superior to me, and that I have no place there, and no right playing with them.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
Cookie cutter is fine if you like the majority of the suggestions and can grasp why they're suggested, and adjust it with some choices you'd prefer to model and play with.
Clawshrimpy's view of competitive lists in the past, even marginally optimized ones or alterations of his pre-built units, has been they're all boring min/maxed powergaming lists, complete with Marine Command Squads with bolters and no other wargear. This would be the excuse to instead give them all power weapons plus another 50 points of master-of-all wargear, because power weapons are cool. The dividing line between those two is evidently subjective, which has kept each iteration of the core argument entertaining.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
It's not that I'm losing, it's that I'm losing very badly, and it kind of alienates me from the gaming group for being awkward, I feel like everyone is superior to me, and that I have no place there, and no right playing with them.
If you're getting massacred with the fairly decent list you've posted, it's far more likely to be a matter of wargaming skill and practice. An optimized monstrous creature Tyranid list or horde of 90 gaunts isn't going to guarentee you wins if you don't know how to use them, either. Whatever it is you're doing to lose, it's both normal as a newcomer and something you should be improving by discussing openmindedly with your local gaming group, not with us who only have your list and your exagerrated complaints to go by.
It's not that I'm losing, it's that I'm losing very badly, and it kind of alienates me from the gaming group for being awkward, I feel like everyone is superior to me, and that I have no place there, and no right playing with them.
Didn't you say you were basically just learning, and the people you were playing against were veteran players? You shouldn't expect to win if your just learning to play.
I mean, shit, Warmachine players in my area take great pleasure in breaking new players for their first games. I can't count on both hands the number of times I was killed in turn 2 or 3 of my first Warmachine games. And from what I know, there are far more brutal players out there then the guys in my club.
It's not that I'm losing, it's that I'm losing very badly, and it kind of alienates me from the gaming group for being awkward, I feel like everyone is superior to me, and that I have no place there, and no right playing with them.
Didn't you say you were basically just learning, and the people you were playing against were veteran players? You shouldn't expect to win if your just learning to play.
I mean, shit, Warmachine players in my area take great pleasure in breaking new players for their first games. I can't count on both hands the number of times I was killed in turn 2 or 3 of my first Warmachine games. And from what I know, there are far more brutal players out there then the guys in my club.
That's just it, I guess, it makes me feel like I'm not worth their time, or something. Plus, I was orginally under the impressin that I'd get to play with newer players, too. but, no, they all know what they are doing. I can't tell if they are purposely being dicks to me, or if this is supposed to be some condescending trial by fire.
It's not that I'm losing, it's that I'm losing very badly, and it kind of alienates me from the gaming group for being awkward, I feel like everyone is superior to me, and that I have no place there, and no right playing with them.
Didn't you say you were basically just learning, and the people you were playing against were veteran players? You shouldn't expect to win if your just learning to play.
I mean, shit, Warmachine players in my area take great pleasure in breaking new players for their first games. I can't count on both hands the number of times I was killed in turn 2 or 3 of my first Warmachine games. And from what I know, there are far more brutal players out there then the guys in my club.
That's just it, I guess, it makes me feel like I'm not worth their time, or something. Plus, I was orginally under the impressin that I'd get to play with newer players, too. but, no, they all know what they are doing. I can't tell if they are purposely being dicks to me, or if this is supposed to be some condescending trial by fire.
Clawshrimpy, It seems that you have some serious mixed emotions about playing the game and using this forum for advice... Its mentioned that you should use different units, but your response is that you feel that you should be able to play what you want to play, and field what you want to field, but you want to stop losing. You are obviously reading what people say in response but I dont think you really make any sense of it. If you want to play to win, change up your list, take some advice, talk to your local players who are winning frequently and USE the info. I'm not trying to wave my e-peen , but I remember looking back a few months and this exact same shit was happening. You ask for advice,then defend your ignorance.
How many more pages are we going to have with you defending the fact that you want to field your lists that you like , but dont work, and the constant ignoring of people who are trying to help.
Sorry guys, I can only lurk for so long before I have to throw my 2cents in.
Claw, I honestly hope you get something figured out, and start enjoying the game, or enjoy losing with the lists you like to play.
It's not that I'm losing, it's that I'm losing very badly, and it kind of alienates me from the gaming group for being awkward, I feel like everyone is superior to me, and that I have no place there, and no right playing with them.
Didn't you say you were basically just learning, and the people you were playing against were veteran players? You shouldn't expect to win if your just learning to play.
I mean, shit, Warmachine players in my area take great pleasure in breaking new players for their first games. I can't count on both hands the number of times I was killed in turn 2 or 3 of my first Warmachine games. And from what I know, there are far more brutal players out there then the guys in my club.
That's just it, I guess, it makes me feel like I'm not worth their time, or something. Plus, I was orginally under the impressin that I'd get to play with newer players, too. but, no, they all know what they are doing. I can't tell if they are purposely being dicks to me, or if this is supposed to be some condescending trial by fire.
Clawshrimpy, It seems that you have some serious mixed emotions about playing the game and using this forum for advice... Its mentioned that you should use different units, but your response is that you feel that you should be able to play what you want to play, and field what you want to field, but you want to stop losing. You are obviously reading what people say in response but I dont think you really make any sense of it. If you want to play to win, change up your list, take some advice, talk to your local players who are winning frequently and USE the info. I'm not trying to wave my e-peen , but I remember looking back a few months and this exact same shit was happening. You ask for advice,then defend your ignorance.
How many more pages are we going to have with you defending the fact that you want to field your lists that you like , but dont work, and the constant ignoring of people who are trying to help.
Sorry guys, I can only lurk for so long before I have to throw my 2cents in.
Claw, I honestly hope you get something figured out, and start enjoying the game, or enjoy losing with the lists you like to play.
Cheers
I don't even mind losing as much as getting slaughtered in two turns and barely being able to do anything to my opponents forces in return.
Shrimpy, didn't you promise you were going to be a good boy this time and not do the emo-angst?
Anyway, play your list however you like. As others have said, the real issue here is your lack of experience. You should eventually get better with practice. Now, if the other people at the store you play at are, in fact, massive dicks, then you probably have worse issues than your list composition.
EDIT: Jesus fuck, beaten like a red-headed stepchild by another lurker of all things.
XenoZergie on
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
I have a hard enough time fighting my GF's 3 Oblits. How'd you manage against 9 of them, tim?
I set up as far back as possible and shot at one oblit at a time. My vets killed several, but what really did it was that it was alpha table quarters and I managed to make every quarter contested on my last turn. Instant draw. :P If that was gamma or omega there is no way in hell I could have won.
Also I just want to remind everyone, that I totally called it way the hell back.
You all know what I'm talking about. I think you all owe me a coke.:winky:
Shrimpy, didn't you promise you were going to be a good boy this time and not do the emo-angst?
Anyway, play your list however you like. As others have said, the real issue here is your lack of experience. You should eventually get better with practice. Now, if the other people at the store you play at are, in fact, massive dicks, then you probably have worse issues than your list composition.
EDIT: Jesus fuck, beaten like a red-headed stepchild by another lurker of all things.
Haha, I'm only half lurker... I try to post when theres something constructive to say.... =p
I'm honestly trying to be better than I was back then. I don't mean to be ungrateful, it's just how am I supposed to have fun when I can't take anythingI like? or, perhaps a more jarring question would be, how come the things I like are so "wrong" or "unworkable"?
Clawshrimpy on
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
Claw, Honestly the only constructive things to say would be to go back a few pages and re read all of your posts, and replies.
Accept the fact that what you're using is not working, and that is a problem. I guess that old phrase you cant have your cake, and eat it too, is applicable here.
Claw, Honestly the only constructive things to say would be to go back a few pages and re read all of your posts, and replies.
Accept the fact that what you're using is not working, and that is a problem. I guess that old phrase you cant have your cake, and eat it too, is applicable here.
But I jsut feel it's unfair that you're forced to do what everyone else does and you can't play what you want without being labeled as a loser and not worth anybody's time.
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So which is right? I have both, but usually just truck the little one to games. Not that big of a deal, but could come in useful.
And, my only 2 cents on Tyranids at 1000 pts. is that they suck. They don't get the numbers they need to be effective while also maintaining things like anti-tank or the cool psychic powers. My Nid list at 1000 points was lots of Warriors and Hormagaunts. And I had a hard time with IG armies with tanks...but I did real well against everything else.
Also consider saving points on the Dakkafex by just giving it enhanced senses and 2 twin-linked devourers. Just my preference.
Thing is about short-range and close combat units is you still have to play them a bit defensively; utilize cover, deny the enemy of line of sight and firing lanes, flanking, hold onto territory, etc. Scooting straight across the board in the open just isn't good tactics, but it's simpler and more intuitive to do this with units that can Fleet or have Assault weapons or multiple attacks than with shooters, so the later gets kept behind a tank or in a building and thus has an easier time fulfilling their role.
Orks and Tyranids are primarily horde armies, melee-oriented but hordes in much of their ranged tactics as well (particularly Orks). Both have a lot of composition options, but some thought on overall strategy with puposeful choices to round off the list is needed. Especially Tyranids; I have yet to hear of units that don't mesh well with "a couple big mobs of boyz/several Trukk boyz".
The real roadblock all this time has of course been that Clawshrimpy has the strategic sense of a toad. Even when he plans a decent unbloated list, for whatever reason it doesn't enable him to start wargaming off as competitive against veteran players. Any advice or reasoning subsequently given to him to alter his lists in cheap and minor ways (adding or subtracing a few models, picking up an extra unit, leaving off some options) to improve it are dismissed in frustration because they don't fit 'his' idea of strategy or composition. And so we're stuck in an endless cycle of Shrimpy being unwilling to consider semi-competitive choices but still wanting to win regularly as a novice toad-minded tactician.
What ever happened to those Blood Angels, anyway? Good golly I miss those.
Actually, I was wondering if anyone here had any excess rending claws they could mail/trade me for.
Re: I just want to take what I want and do well, that's never going to hold 100% true for any game you play.
No, if you bring a solid list that has been fairly well pared down and you play it effectively then you will do well in most environments. The whole ''minmax beardy cheese'' thing is usually an exaggeration by people who aren't in a very competitive environment.
And tactics and strategy start at building the list.
Hah, that sounds like my friends and I playing Space Marine - no way were we buying all those plastic Rhinos and Stormblades on pocket money.
If you are running against a lot of vehicles then try and focus on just stunning the shootiest ones while you move your assault stuff up (another shooty 'fex in place of the 'thropes would be more consistent), don't worry as much about destroying them, if you can get anything to their lines destroying will follow. When you set up terrian, try and throw it all in the middle of the table in a big line. Against both Tau and Guard try and use your hormagaunts to tie up units that block the line of sight of other units, or you can do what I do with my Blood Angels and push all your stuff down the same flank, essentially denying all kinds of shooting from the other. If you use the terrain right (assuming you are playing with enough), no tau or guard army should get more then 1 good round of shooting against your army.
Also, try and move your stuff so that everything move out into the open on the same turn right before you charge, target saturation, if this means holding certain things back for a turn it's fine. The best Tyranid players I know don't just charge blindly ahead and actually withdraw their genestealers sometimes to ensure they get a charge in at the right time.
Against assault oriented armies like orks, throw your gaunts out front and hold your stealers back for the counter charge. In general you are trying to force your opponent to deal with the gaunts (which are quite deadly themselves in great numbers) while your even deadlier things are right behind them. Against fast armies like Eldar it's a bit tougher because you need to pin them down, try and encircle them and force them into a corner where they can't maneuver, Eldar units excel at a single thing generally, and will fold like napkins if countered correctly.
In general, with assault armies, it's important to have a strong plan for the battle and to use terrain effectively, think ahead about your movement and where you will get by each turn. Hope that helps!
I mostly kitbashed them and sold them off. Better they be useful to someone.
There is a Tyranid player at my store with an undefeated 1K Nid Army, I've played against it a few times, it's really nasty, he takes hardly any upgrades. I don't remember the specifics of the list, but it's something like 60 gaunts, 1 squad of stealers, 4 MC.
One of the old Tyranid codexs let you take single spore mines as troops, so you take 2 5point spore mines to fill out your troops.
Zoanthropes are so cool and should not be as useless as people say they are.
What I liked about Warmachine is that I don't have to worry about things like Wargear, and choosing weapons and equipment for everything, just one problem, people who actually play Privateer Press games, are kinda rare around here.
everyone has to play the game that's so much harder. I want to be able to play and socialise with people, but not when it's so hard for me to learn at all.
Then field a Zoanthrope or 2 or 3 or whatever. It's your choice, and it's your army, and it's your decision how much fun you have with it.
If you feel "punished" because you don't win all the time then you can do 2 things:
1. Switch up the army to something generally more accepted as "good", and learn the strategies and tactics behind these cookie-cutter lists
2. Learn to play with what you have and develop your own strategies and tactics.
I prefer option 2, because it challenges people more tactically. It's easy to go on the Internet, collate a bunch of lists and then just take a derivative of those lists. Or you can take what you want, and learn to be competitive with something that might not appear so to the majority of most people.
It's all a choice, and really it's up to you.
It's weird to me you find that 40K is harder then warmachine. I had a super hard time in Warmachine keeping up with all the expansions and what each new unit's abilities and special rules were. And it was usually that sort of ignorance that cost me games, because someone would do something that I didn't even know they could do, even when I was looking at their cards. It's too much like Magic to me.
You don't choose wargear, you just choose the guy that happens to have different wargear.
GW system is this:
Light warjack 50 pts
rocket 20 pts
shield 20 pts
mace 30 pts
Privateer system is this:
Light warjack w/ rocket and shield 90 pts
Light warjack w/ shield and mace 100 pts
(no option for rocket/mace)
And most models have different POW/ARM so you are always rolling "Dice minus one for this guy, this guy swings and does dice +2 for his damage in this d6 column, and then this guy is swinging but his weapon master adds a d6, my lords power makes him -2 ARM, and he gets a +2 because you are prone, and a -1 for this guy" etc etc etc.
It's not hard, but it's not really any simpler, and since almost every jack has a different weapon/attack rating you end up tracking the same/more weapons anyway.
I wouldn't exactly say ''cookie-cutter'' like it's a bad thing. I think if Shrimp were to take an established archetypical list and then make a couple modifications to suit him he could really get into the tactics on the board; it's handy for new players because they normally fail because of a bad list and bad tactics, so you eliminate the bad list problem and let them work on the tactics without worrying.
The problem is that the lists like that won't have the units he wants to take. It's a Catch-22 for him. But I agree with you Mike it is easier to learn that way. Like always, it just comes down to a matter of preference.
Clawshrimpy's view of competitive lists in the past, even marginally optimized ones or alterations of his pre-built units, has been they're all boring min/maxed powergaming lists, complete with Marine Command Squads with bolters and no other wargear. This would be the excuse to instead give them all power weapons plus another 50 points of master-of-all wargear, because power weapons are cool. The dividing line between those two is evidently subjective, which has kept each iteration of the core argument entertaining.
If you're getting massacred with the fairly decent list you've posted, it's far more likely to be a matter of wargaming skill and practice. An optimized monstrous creature Tyranid list or horde of 90 gaunts isn't going to guarentee you wins if you don't know how to use them, either. Whatever it is you're doing to lose, it's both normal as a newcomer and something you should be improving by discussing openmindedly with your local gaming group, not with us who only have your list and your exagerrated complaints to go by.
Didn't you say you were basically just learning, and the people you were playing against were veteran players? You shouldn't expect to win if your just learning to play.
I mean, shit, Warmachine players in my area take great pleasure in breaking new players for their first games. I can't count on both hands the number of times I was killed in turn 2 or 3 of my first Warmachine games. And from what I know, there are far more brutal players out there then the guys in my club.
Clawshrimpy, It seems that you have some serious mixed emotions about playing the game and using this forum for advice... Its mentioned that you should use different units, but your response is that you feel that you should be able to play what you want to play, and field what you want to field, but you want to stop losing. You are obviously reading what people say in response but I dont think you really make any sense of it. If you want to play to win, change up your list, take some advice, talk to your local players who are winning frequently and USE the info. I'm not trying to wave my e-peen , but I remember looking back a few months and this exact same shit was happening. You ask for advice,then defend your ignorance.
How many more pages are we going to have with you defending the fact that you want to field your lists that you like , but dont work, and the constant ignoring of people who are trying to help.
Sorry guys, I can only lurk for so long before I have to throw my 2cents in.
Claw, I honestly hope you get something figured out, and start enjoying the game, or enjoy losing with the lists you like to play.
Cheers
Anyway, play your list however you like. As others have said, the real issue here is your lack of experience. You should eventually get better with practice. Now, if the other people at the store you play at are, in fact, massive dicks, then you probably have worse issues than your list composition.
EDIT: Jesus fuck, beaten like a red-headed stepchild by another lurker of all things.
I set up as far back as possible and shot at one oblit at a time. My vets killed several, but what really did it was that it was alpha table quarters and I managed to make every quarter contested on my last turn. Instant draw. :P If that was gamma or omega there is no way in hell I could have won.
Also I just want to remind everyone, that I totally called it way the hell back.
You all know what I'm talking about. I think you all owe me a coke.:winky:
Haha, I'm only half lurker... I try to post when theres something constructive to say.... =p
Quoted to remind everyone how right I am.
By the way, that's 10 days, 21 hours 25 minutes. A new record I think.
Whatever, I'll just shut up, I guess.
Normally I hate Cleanse but there's something to be said for forcing a draw like that.
Accept the fact that what you're using is not working, and that is a problem. I guess that old phrase you cant have your cake, and eat it too, is applicable here.