Don't like the snow? You can make a bookmark with the following text instead of a url: javascript:snowStorm.toggleSnow(). Clicking it will toggle the snow on and off.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

"No!" says Hollywood, "It belongs in the theatres!" BioShock: The Movie

1235

Posts

  • thefaisthefais Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    It would be possible to keep with the same plot - twist and all - but I doubt it would work as well as it did as a game. It would be handled differently, of course, similar to the reveal in Fight Club or The Usual Suspects.

    The game is all about the illusion of choice and control - With the game, the player is the one with the illusion of control and choice - In the film, the main character could easily fill that role. The hero, believing himself to be driven by his own volition to kill Ryan, is just a puppet manipulated by his master.

    This will really come down to direction and writing.

    That being said, I'd only put Guillermo del Toro above Verbinsky on the list of directors who should do this (and actually would).

  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Great, now I'm renting Bioshock again. One I get my Stim Check and meidcal reimbursement I will end up getting an HDTV and Bioshock for a third time.

    steam_sig.png
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • SzechuanSzechuan Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    Hell, most of the characters go one further and show an outright dislike for Tenenbaum, the only one with a conscience. Rapture really wasn't populated by nice people.

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Szechuan wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    Hell, most of the characters go one further and show an outright dislike for Tenenbaum, the only one with a conscience. Rapture really wasn't populated by nice people.

    I disagree. Look at McClintock for example. I think it's just that the nice people are all long gone by the time Jack gets there. In a world where anyone can inject themselves with superpowers, the assholes are going to reign supreme.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Szechuan wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    Hell, most of the characters go one further and show an outright dislike for Tenenbaum, the only one with a conscience. Rapture really wasn't populated by nice people.

    I disagree. Look at McClintock for example. I think it's just that the nice people are all long gone by the time Jack gets there. In a world where anyone can inject themselves with superpowers, the assholes are going to reign supreme.

    McClintok, big time. The Little Sister Tasha's parents, and the head of police come to mind.

    steam_sig.png
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    The plumber guy that helped build Rapture seemed like a pretty decent fellow, too.

    It's worth noting that all of them are dead.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • SzechuanSzechuan Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    The plumber guy that helped build Rapture seemed like a pretty decent fellow, too.

    It's worth noting that all of them are dead.

    Exactly. There are a couple people who don't outright suck, but Rapture was designed and built from the ground up for self-centered elitists. The Little Guy™ is getting stepped on through the whole game. And I always got the impression that the kid's parents sold her to the folks running the Little Sister project, which is why you find them where/when you do.

  • Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Italax wrote: »
    It could work if they don't try to copy the game's story, but instead try to show the fall of Rapture. Show it when it was all happy and intact then show it slowly going to shit.

    Yes.

    steam_sig.png
  • AntishowAntishow Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Szechuan wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    Hell, most of the characters go one further and show an outright dislike for Tenenbaum, the only one with a conscience. Rapture really wasn't populated by nice people.

    My memory is a little foggy but... wasn't Tenenbaum a nazi?

  • SzechuanSzechuan Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Antishow wrote: »
    Szechuan wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    Hell, most of the characters go one further and show an outright dislike for Tenenbaum, the only one with a conscience. Rapture really wasn't populated by nice people.

    My memory is a little foggy but... wasn't Tenenbaum a nazi?

    She may have worked in the camps, but I think her diaries imply she admired the scientists who had her imprisoned. I don't know if she was actually working for them or not at that point. Does anyone have a record of the diaries where she talks about it?

  • IriahIriah Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Incidentally, the ending sucked because as development got towards completion, higher-ups decreed that the story should have multiple endings, and Levine had no choice but to rework it. I'll see if I can find the quote...

  • FalstaffFalstaff Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Cantido wrote: »
    Szechuan wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    Hell, most of the characters go one further and show an outright dislike for Tenenbaum, the only one with a conscience. Rapture really wasn't populated by nice people.

    I disagree. Look at McClintock for example. I think it's just that the nice people are all long gone by the time Jack gets there. In a world where anyone can inject themselves with superpowers, the assholes are going to reign supreme.

    McClintok, big time. The Little Sister Tasha's parents, and the head of police come to mind.

    McDonagh.

    The movie should be about McDonagh.

    Still verbing the adjective noun.
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Falstaff wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    Szechuan wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    Hell, most of the characters go one further and show an outright dislike for Tenenbaum, the only one with a conscience. Rapture really wasn't populated by nice people.

    I disagree. Look at McClintock for example. I think it's just that the nice people are all long gone by the time Jack gets there. In a world where anyone can inject themselves with superpowers, the assholes are going to reign supreme.

    McClintok, big time. The Little Sister Tasha's parents, and the head of police come to mind.

    McDonagh.

    The movie should be about McDonagh.

    Not a bad call at all. He is something of a "conscience" for Ryan. :^:

    steam_sig.png
  • darleysamdarleysam Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    McDonagh
    Piss or go fishin', he just doesn't care.

  • thorpethorpe Registered User
    edited May 2008
    It would actually be rather awesome if the movie just said "fuck it" to Jack and the events of Bioshock and just followed McDonagh in the days preceding and during the civil war.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • UselesswarriorUselesswarrior Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Fucking Principal Snyder, man. I still can't see that voice coming from him.

    Holy crap. That's an interesting bit of trivia.

    The whole problem with having the plot follow pre-Jack pre-Civil War is that without the events depicted in Bioshock there is no resolution.

    steam_sig.png
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I have good feelings about this movie. I just have to keep in mind that they will change things around.

    JKKaAGp.png
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Antishow wrote: »
    Szechuan wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    Hell, most of the characters go one further and show an outright dislike for Tenenbaum, the only one with a conscience. Rapture really wasn't populated by nice people.

    My memory is a little foggy but... wasn't Tenenbaum a nazi?
    She's done terrible things, but unlike everyone else, she acknowledges that, and is actively working towards righting her wrongs.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • Fatty McBeardoFatty McBeardo Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    If there's a Bioshock movie I want to play Dr. Steinman. But one of my contract requirements will be that John Waters must play Sander Cohen. My first choice for Cohen would be Truman Capote, but he definitely isn't available. Second choice is Waters. Third choice is Philip Seymour Hoffman, because he played a damn good Capote.

  • thorpethorpe Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Antishow wrote: »
    Szechuan wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    Hell, most of the characters go one further and show an outright dislike for Tenenbaum, the only one with a conscience. Rapture really wasn't populated by nice people.

    My memory is a little foggy but... wasn't Tenenbaum a nazi?
    She's done terrible things, but unlike everyone else, she acknowledges that, and is actively working towards righting her wrongs.


    She wasn't a Nazi, but she did collaborate with them.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    She was a child prisoner during the Holocaust who helped the Nazis' experiments.

  • DeathPrawnDeathPrawn Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Iriah wrote: »
    Incidentally, the ending sucked because as development got towards completion, higher-ups decreed that the story should have multiple endings, and Levine had no choice but to rework it. I'll see if I can find the quote...

    This isn't the place to have this discussion, but I'd wager to say the ending sucked not because of the multiple endings, but because it wasn't open-ended enough. If the conceit of the game is "you think you have freedom, but then there's a plot twist where it turns out you don't, and then the person who was controlling you isn't", they'd darn well better start giving you some real choices instead of continuing to make you follow orders blindly. I guess if they did only have one ending the central idea of the game could have been that free will is just an illusion, but I don't think the rest of the game supports that.

    Signature not found.
  • ProcessOfBeliefProcessOfBelief Registered User
    edited May 2008
    thorpe wrote: »
    Antishow wrote: »
    Szechuan wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    Hell, most of the characters go one further and show an outright dislike for Tenenbaum, the only one with a conscience. Rapture really wasn't populated by nice people.

    My memory is a little foggy but... wasn't Tenenbaum a nazi?
    She's done terrible things, but unlike everyone else, she acknowledges that, and is actively working towards righting her wrongs.


    She wasn't a Nazi, but she did collaborate with them.

    And she wasnt all good, nor was she the only one with a "conscience". If you would remember, McDonaugh had a conscience. Its what led him to try and kill Ryan.

    We also dont know a lot about Diane McClintock. From the recordings, we can see she was naive, but i dont know if she ever truly crossed that line and did anything intently evil. she recognized that her boyfriend was turning insane and decided to betray him.

    Of course, we have to acknowledge that her decision was not based on any want of well being for the little sisters or the greater good, but was simply due to the fact that Ryan abandoned her.

    Yet, getting back to Tenenbaum, the game does suggest that she feels remorse for what she's done and is trying to make it right. Furthermore, she appears to be the only person who acknowledges that the Little sisters are still "human". Even so, the game leaves it ambigious as to whether or not the sisters have any humanity left in them. Even when you are escorting "cured" little sisters, they still have that tendency to harvest atom from corpses upon instinct. so the games objectivist arguement leaves open the possibility that the sisters are not human.

    MKR wrote: »
    So a lawyer, a hooker, and a robot walk into a bar...
    HOW DARE YOU SIR!
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    thorpe wrote: »
    Antishow wrote: »
    Szechuan wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    Hell, most of the characters go one further and show an outright dislike for Tenenbaum, the only one with a conscience. Rapture really wasn't populated by nice people.

    My memory is a little foggy but... wasn't Tenenbaum a nazi?
    She's done terrible things, but unlike everyone else, she acknowledges that, and is actively working towards righting her wrongs.


    She wasn't a Nazi, but she did collaborate with them.

    And she wasnt all good, nor was she the only one with a "conscience". If you would remember, McDonaugh had a conscience. Its what led him to try and kill Ryan.

    We also dont know a lot about Diane McClintock. From the recordings, we can see she was naive, but i dont know if she ever truly crossed that line and did anything intently evil. she recognized that her boyfriend was turning insane and decided to betray him.

    Of course, we have to acknowledge that her decision was not based on any want of well being for the little sisters or the greater good, but was simply due to the fact that Ryan abandoned her.

    Yet, getting back to Tenenbaum, the game does suggest that she feels remorse for what she's done and is trying to make it right. Furthermore, she appears to be the only person who acknowledges that the Little sisters are still "human". Even so, the game leaves it ambigious as to whether or not the sisters have any humanity left in them. Even when you are escorting "cured" little sisters, they still have that tendency to harvest atom from corpses upon instinct. so the games objectivist arguement leaves open the possibility that the sisters are not human.

    Tenenbaum's not the only character with a conscience, but she's the only character still alive that has a conscience.

    Also, the fact that the game doesn't turn super non-linear after the brainwashing is stopped isn't contradictory with all the free will stuff. Part of the point is that totally free will is a bad thing. It's what turned Rapture into the shithole that it is. Fontaine is a model example of Ryan's ideal. Through sheer force of will and "the sweat of his brow," he built himself up, and in the end indeed managed to make Rapture his city, just as Andrew Ryan had advertised that he could. This severely crippled Ryan's rhetoric, and you can hear on some of the announcements how he's trying to rationalize it: "the smuggler is the close friend of the parasite."

    Fontaine is quick to point out that Jack is still a slave at the end of the game, but what he can't see is that Jack is a slave to himself. Tenenbaum isn't controlling Jack, she's only bringing out his own inner sense of right and wrong, and that's what drives Jack to fight Fontaine. Either he's an inherently evil person and wants to kill Fontaine to take his place, or he's an inherently good person and wants to kill Fontaine so that himself and the Little Sisters can escape. Jack isn't just doing whatever the fuck he feels like, he's doing what he feels that he has to do, but the source of that feeling is internal, rather than external.

    Well dag for the first time now I actually do kinda like the way Bioshock ends.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • ProcessOfBeliefProcessOfBelief Registered User
    edited May 2008
    thorpe wrote: »
    Antishow wrote: »
    Szechuan wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    Tharghor wrote: »
    There should propably be a spoiler warning in the thread title. I know we can't spoil the movie, but I guess some poor souls hasn't played Bioshock yet.

    I wonder how they will treat the dead smugglers and their bibles.

    If I'm guessing right, as persecuted heroes.

    Which is, of course, bullshit, because part of the point of Bioshock is that none of the characters other than Tenenbaum are good people. Ryan has lofty and arguably noble ideals, but he commits atrocities to further them, whereas Fontaine is looking to ultimately fuck everyone over, but as a means to that end he performs good deeds. Tenenbaum is sort of like the conscience of the city and nobody except for possibly Jack listens to her.

    Hell, most of the characters go one further and show an outright dislike for Tenenbaum, the only one with a conscience. Rapture really wasn't populated by nice people.

    My memory is a little foggy but... wasn't Tenenbaum a nazi?
    She's done terrible things, but unlike everyone else, she acknowledges that, and is actively working towards righting her wrongs.


    She wasn't a Nazi, but she did collaborate with them.

    And she wasnt all good, nor was she the only one with a "conscience". If you would remember, McDonaugh had a conscience. Its what led him to try and kill Ryan.

    We also dont know a lot about Diane McClintock. From the recordings, we can see she was naive, but i dont know if she ever truly crossed that line and did anything intently evil. she recognized that her boyfriend was turning insane and decided to betray him.

    Of course, we have to acknowledge that her decision was not based on any want of well being for the little sisters or the greater good, but was simply due to the fact that Ryan abandoned her.

    Yet, getting back to Tenenbaum, the game does suggest that she feels remorse for what she's done and is trying to make it right. Furthermore, she appears to be the only person who acknowledges that the Little sisters are still "human". Even so, the game leaves it ambigious as to whether or not the sisters have any humanity left in them. Even when you are escorting "cured" little sisters, they still have that tendency to harvest atom from corpses upon instinct. so the games objectivist arguement leaves open the possibility that the sisters are not human.

    Tenenbaum's not the only character with a conscience, but she's the only character still alive that has a conscience.

    Also, the fact that the game doesn't turn super non-linear after the brainwashing is stopped isn't contradictory with all the free will stuff. Part of the point is that totally free will is a bad thing. It's what turned Rapture into the shithole that it is. Fontaine is a model example of Ryan's ideal. Through sheer force of will and "the sweat of his brow," he built himself up, and in the end indeed managed to make Rapture his city, just as Andrew Ryan had advertised that he could. This severely crippled Ryan's rhetoric, and you can hear on some of the announcements how he's trying to rationalize it: "the smuggler is the close friend of the parasite."

    Fontaine is quick to point out that Jack is still a slave at the end of the game, but what he can't see is that Jack is a slave to himself. Tenenbaum isn't controlling Jack, she's only bringing out his own inner sense of right and wrong, and that's what drives Jack to fight Fontaine. Either he's an inherently evil person and wants to kill Fontaine to take his place, or he's an inherently good person and wants to kill Fontaine so that himself and the Little Sisters can escape. Jack isn't just doing whatever the fuck he feels like, he's doing what he feels that he has to do, but the source of that feeling is internal, rather than external.

    Well dag for the first time now I actually do kinda like the way Bioshock ends.

    yeah, i dont know why people are always down on the ending. As far as games with the whole "moral choice" mechanic go, it was suprisingly deep. Most of the time in morality based gameplay, the player has a choice between good and evil, but it does not seem to matter since the player ends up in a position of power at the end either way. In Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic for example, the Light Jedi will be lauded by his/her masters and hailed as the savior of the Galaxy with all of his/her friends with him. Meanwhile, the Dark Jedi is hailed as a supreme warlord who will eventually conquer all of the galaxy.

    In contrast, Bioshock's endings do not fall into such simple terms. If you decide to be the savior and rescue the little sisters, you must make the ultimate sacrifice and turn yourself into a Big Daddy, which ultimately leaves you weak and injured in a Hospital bed while the Little sisters go on to lead happy and fulling lives outside of Rapture. On the other hand, If you decide to harvest all the adam you can, you become the supreme boss of Rapture and command the Splicers. Yet even this raises its own questions. What are you the boss of really? A crumbling and decadent bubble society filled with sociopaths that is slowly being crushed by the pressure of the sea? Likewise, the introduction of the Nuclear bomb at the end brings up the possibility that Jack, in the desire to escalate Raptures weaponry, may ultimately destroy himself along with Rapture.

    Therefore, neither of the Endings are tied up nicely, as there is always the lingering idea that the Player has not truly "won" the game. I think that the criticism of the endings came from gamers who were always searching for the more "traditional" game ending where the hero comes out triumphantly against all odds.

    MKR wrote: »
    So a lawyer, a hooker, and a robot walk into a bar...
    HOW DARE YOU SIR!
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I don't think Jack's in the hospital because of his transformation into a Big Daddy, I think it's just that a lot of time has passed and he's an old man at that point. The hands holding his aren't children's hands anymore.

    And, of course, he still has to transform into a Big Daddy even if he's an evil son of a bitch.

    There should've been a third "redemption" ending for if you killed Little Sisters until you found out about Atlas and then saved them from there on out.

    My assumption is that Bioshock 2 takes place after the bad ending, with Jack as the new villain after having stirred up a ton of shit from launching the nuke.

    This post was kind of disjointed!

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • mxmarksmxmarks Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Man, I'm glad its not my job to come up with a good story for BioShock 2.

    I don't like the 'go in and fight Jack now!' plot, because it raises too many weird questions. Obviously Jack sends the splicers to the surface. So would you start on the surface, and move down to Rapture? People would bitch that Rapture was 90% of the draw of BioShock, and how BioShock 2 doesnt let you see Rapture right from the start. Would you be working for the government? I'm sure they're involved shortly after the evil ending ends. And the whole mystery of discovering what happened would be gone, because you already know.

    And making a game based off the good ending is also troublesome. Rapture is abandoned (I think...right?) so unless you follow the same plot as the 1st one - stumble into Rapture, some people are there and crazy and you fight them and figure out what happened.

    I think the only way BioShock 2 could be great is as a prequel. Playing up to the New Years Party. Seeing Sander Cohen walking around, knowing what I do to him eventually, would give me chills.

    But back to the movie - I think the movie could follow the game pretty directly. Cutting out the whole save the trees part. Replace the tapes with some old fashioned 'video diaries', and you could have the main charecter discovering these videos (and with videos you could cover what you collected on 9 audio tapes in one, 3 minute chunk) to move things along.

    Hell, have the main charecter read old newspapers, and do flashbacks to show what he's reading. It'd be pretty awesome.

    XBL: MXrox - PSN: mxmarks - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    mxmarks wrote: »
    Man, I'm glad its not my job to come up with a good story for BioShock 2.

    I don't like the 'go in and fight Jack now!' plot, because it raises too many weird questions. Obviously Jack sends the splicers to the surface. So would you start on the surface, and move down to Rapture? People would bitch that Rapture was 90% of the draw of BioShock, and how BioShock 2 doesnt let you see Rapture right from the start. Would you be working for the government? I'm sure they're involved shortly after the evil ending ends. And the whole mystery of discovering what happened would be gone, because you already know.

    And making a game based off the good ending is also troublesome. Rapture is abandoned (I think...right?) so unless you follow the same plot as the 1st one - stumble into Rapture, some people are there and crazy and you fight them and figure out what happened.

    I think the only way BioShock 2 could be great is as a prequel. Playing up to the New Years Party. Seeing Sander Cohen walking around, knowing what I do to him eventually, would give me chills.

    But back to the movie - I think the movie could follow the game pretty directly. Cutting out the whole save the trees part. Replace the tapes with some old fashioned 'video diaries', and you could have the main charecter discovering these videos (and with videos you could cover what you collected on 9 audio tapes in one, 3 minute chunk) to move things along.

    Hell, have the main charecter read old newspapers, and do flashbacks to show what he's reading. It'd be pretty awesome.
    I think instead of having video diaries, Jack should pick up an audio diary and as he listens to it the scene transitions into a flashback of what the audio diary is narrating.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • mxmarksmxmarks Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    mxmarks wrote: »
    Man, I'm glad its not my job to come up with a good story for BioShock 2.

    I don't like the 'go in and fight Jack now!' plot, because it raises too many weird questions. Obviously Jack sends the splicers to the surface. So would you start on the surface, and move down to Rapture? People would bitch that Rapture was 90% of the draw of BioShock, and how BioShock 2 doesnt let you see Rapture right from the start. Would you be working for the government? I'm sure they're involved shortly after the evil ending ends. And the whole mystery of discovering what happened would be gone, because you already know.

    And making a game based off the good ending is also troublesome. Rapture is abandoned (I think...right?) so unless you follow the same plot as the 1st one - stumble into Rapture, some people are there and crazy and you fight them and figure out what happened.

    I think the only way BioShock 2 could be great is as a prequel. Playing up to the New Years Party. Seeing Sander Cohen walking around, knowing what I do to him eventually, would give me chills.

    But back to the movie - I think the movie could follow the game pretty directly. Cutting out the whole save the trees part. Replace the tapes with some old fashioned 'video diaries', and you could have the main charecter discovering these videos (and with videos you could cover what you collected on 9 audio tapes in one, 3 minute chunk) to move things along.

    Hell, have the main charecter read old newspapers, and do flashbacks to show what he's reading. It'd be pretty awesome.
    I think instead of having video diaries, Jack should pick up an audio diary and as he listens to it the scene transitions into a flashback of what the audio diary is narrating.

    I like that better. Lets write a movie together.

    XBL: MXrox - PSN: mxmarks - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    mxmarks wrote: »
    Man, I'm glad its not my job to come up with a good story for BioShock 2.

    I don't like the 'go in and fight Jack now!' plot, because it raises too many weird questions. Obviously Jack sends the splicers to the surface. So would you start on the surface, and move down to Rapture? People would bitch that Rapture was 90% of the draw of BioShock, and how BioShock 2 doesnt let you see Rapture right from the start. Would you be working for the government? I'm sure they're involved shortly after the evil ending ends. And the whole mystery of discovering what happened would be gone, because you already know.

    And making a game based off the good ending is also troublesome. Rapture is abandoned (I think...right?) so unless you follow the same plot as the 1st one - stumble into Rapture, some people are there and crazy and you fight them and figure out what happened.

    I think the only way BioShock 2 could be great is as a prequel. Playing up to the New Years Party. Seeing Sander Cohen walking around, knowing what I do to him eventually, would give me chills.
    People say this a lot but ehhh playing through Rapture pre-New Years just doesn't appeal much to me. I mean I already know everything that happened back then.

    Personally I think they should just make a new (blank)Shock instead of a direct Bioshock sequel.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • Dr SnofeldDr Snofeld Registered User
    edited May 2008
    mxmarks wrote: »
    Man, I'm glad its not my job to come up with a good story for BioShock 2.

    I don't like the 'go in and fight Jack now!' plot, because it raises too many weird questions. Obviously Jack sends the splicers to the surface. So would you start on the surface, and move down to Rapture? People would bitch that Rapture was 90% of the draw of BioShock, and how BioShock 2 doesnt let you see Rapture right from the start. Would you be working for the government? I'm sure they're involved shortly after the evil ending ends. And the whole mystery of discovering what happened would be gone, because you already know.

    And making a game based off the good ending is also troublesome. Rapture is abandoned (I think...right?) so unless you follow the same plot as the 1st one - stumble into Rapture, some people are there and crazy and you fight them and figure out what happened.

    I think the only way BioShock 2 could be great is as a prequel. Playing up to the New Years Party. Seeing Sander Cohen walking around, knowing what I do to him eventually, would give me chills.
    People say this a lot but ehhh playing through Rapture pre-New Years just doesn't appeal much to me. I mean I already know everything that happened back then.

    Personally I think they should just make a new (blank)Shock instead of a direct Bioshock sequel.

    I have some concepts for a System Shock movie, but that's not what this topic's about.

    l4d_sig.png
  • SzechuanSzechuan Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Titmouse wrote: »
    She was a child prisoner during the Holocaust who helped the Nazis' experiments.

    Oh.. oh lord. I saw your avatar and read your post, and immediately thought, "Well, i guess that's settled. The good Doctor is probably the only one here who knew Tenenbaum in person." I think I need more sleep.

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Also, the fact that the game doesn't turn super non-linear after the brainwashing is stopped isn't contradictory with all the free will stuff. Part of the point is that totally free will is a bad thing. It's what turned Rapture into the shithole that it is. Fontaine is a model example of Ryan's ideal. Through sheer force of will and "the sweat of his brow," he built himself up, and in the end indeed managed to make Rapture his city, just as Andrew Ryan had advertised that he could. This severely crippled Ryan's rhetoric, and you can hear on some of the announcements how he's trying to rationalize it: "the smuggler is the close friend of the parasite."

    That's only if you read Bioshock as anti-Objectivist. Levine said he wasn't trying to be pro-Rand or anti-Rand, and remarked that he thought it was funny when he saw one person write that it was just a bunch of Objectivist propoganda and another person write that he was crapping all over Rand's legacy. The way I see it, Fontaine was the exact OPPOSITE of Ryan's ideal, not the model example. He created nothing himself. He simply stole, cheating, and intimidated others. He's the very definition of a parasite: instead of creating Rapture, he stole it from Ryan. He had business acumen, but it was only when he abandoned it to become a criminal that things went downhill, and it is only when Ryan abandons his Objectivist ideals and starts fighting back by removing people's free will (pumping that stuff into Rapture) that things get really bad.

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Also, the fact that the game doesn't turn super non-linear after the brainwashing is stopped isn't contradictory with all the free will stuff. Part of the point is that totally free will is a bad thing. It's what turned Rapture into the shithole that it is. Fontaine is a model example of Ryan's ideal. Through sheer force of will and "the sweat of his brow," he built himself up, and in the end indeed managed to make Rapture his city, just as Andrew Ryan had advertised that he could. This severely crippled Ryan's rhetoric, and you can hear on some of the announcements how he's trying to rationalize it: "the smuggler is the close friend of the parasite."

    That's only if you read Bioshock as anti-Objectivist. Levine said he wasn't trying to be pro-Rand or anti-Rand, and remarked that he thought it was funny when he saw one person write that it was just a bunch of Objectivist propoganda and another person write that he was crapping all over Rand's legacy. The way I see it, Fontaine was the exact OPPOSITE of Ryan's ideal, not the model example. He created nothing himself. He simply stole, cheating, and intimidated others. He's the very definition of a parasite: instead of creating Rapture, he stole it from Ryan. He had business acumen, but it was only when he abandoned it to become a criminal that things went downhill, and it is only when Ryan abandons his Objectivist ideals and starts fighting back by removing people's free will (pumping that stuff into Rapture) that things get really bad.

    What did he steal? As I recall, he got rich by smuggling in goods that people wanted to buy, and by building up Fontaine Futuristics, the company that invented Plasmids. As far as cheating and intimidating others, by Ryan's own ideology any rule that impedes success is an inherently unjust rule and therefore deserves to be broken, and remember that intimidation was a fairly small part of how he gained success. Most of it was through opening up homeless shelters and helping the people that Ryan didn't think deserved help.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    He got rich by cornering the plasmid market but then he went illegal and built up his network of criminals and thugs through the homeless shelters and the smugglers. Intimidation is most definitely not something that Ryan would be okay with, at least as far as he sticks to his ideals, because it's not success that he worries about impeding, but freedom. Just because you can be successful by stealing from someone doesn't make it right. That's the problem Ryan has with the parasites in the first place: they steal and intimidate in order to take what is not rightfully theirs, instead of earning it the right way by hard work or whatever. His philosophy is not "success at all costs" because if it was he'd have no reason to criticise the parasites as long as they're successful at being parasites.

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer I'm Speed Racer and I drive real fast. I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I was talking more about the smuggling. It's hypocritical for Ryan to say "no you're not allowed to sell these goods." It goes against all his Great Chain crap and all that. And I still don't remember him stealing anything. He stole Rapture I guess but that's pretty late in the game.

    speedsig2_zps388d2098.jpg
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Yeah, the anti-smuggling stuff is definitely hypocritical, although he was banning stuff that he saw ass the antithesis of what Rapture was all about. I thought it was pretty clear that Fontaine was basically a criminal, thug, and con artist from the very beginning, using his gang of followers to carry out his wishes.

  • guidedbyvicesguidedbyvices Registered User
    edited May 2008
    John Waters must play Sander Cohen.

    YES YES YES YES YES.

    PSN RadCrimes
  • Regicid3Regicid3 Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Wait a second,
    Spoiler:

Sign In or Register to comment.