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Niko Bellic vs Niko Bellic

24

Posts

  • muninnmuninn Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Scooter wrote: »
    Speaking as a guy who will hopefully have a job one day programming stuff, fuck this guy. I'd be willing to bet almost all the behind-the-scenes guys worked harder than this dude, and I'd also bet few of them got paid so well. You could hire the bum from the alley outside to talk into a microphone for a case of beer, he might be somewhat more talented than that but he's got no basis to feel deserving of a million bucks.

    Well, he isn't asking for a million is he? He just wants residual compensation.

    What you are failing to see is that after he finishes this job, he might not get work for a few months, whereas all of those programmers still have a steady job of programming the next big thing.

    Plus, anyone can be a code monkey. Regardless of what you might think, learning to code is not that hard. Talented actors are far rarer than talented coders.

    Learning to code isnt hard. Learning to code well, is. And there is a slew of artists and musicians working on a game as well, where they use their god given talents and training to create the world and characters. I dont see them clamoring for residuals.
    As for the "he wont have work for a while" statement... tough shit. There is a ,lot of professions based on contract work, where there is a lot of down-time between jobs, and again... no residuals.

  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2008
    Scooter wrote: »
    I agree that she'll become more well-known and probably more well-paid in the future and she does deserve it. I just disagree that she personally made the game successful, and that generally voice actors should start asking for 10% of the game's profits and eternal residues and all that stuff movie stars get. Because imo the majority of the talent behind a game like GTA or Portal resides in the guys sitting at the computers, and I'd hate to see their pay go down because of prima donna actors.

    I'm absolutely fine with them asking for 10%. If they are worth it, then the company will give it to them.

    It's about extracting your full worth. If you can lend a name to a movie or game that will increase sales by 15%, what's the problem with asking for a portion of that?

    In this case, hundreds of other voice actors could have done the voice for Niko, so he didn't have the negotiating power to ask for a cut of profits. He simply wasn't worth it.

  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2008
    Plus, anyone can be a code monkey.

    Not a successful one.

  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2008
    Well, he isn't asking for a million is he? He just wants residual compensation.

    It's fine to want it, but if other voice actors are willing to take the same pay without residuals, why should Rockstar pay more than the market rate for a voice actor?

    If you are suggesting that all voice actors in games should get residuals, then they need to organize like the writer's union did. To expect a company to pay extra just because it's "fair" is silly if they can get the same performance out of someone else for less.

  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Doc wrote: »
    Well, he isn't asking for a million is he? He just wants residual compensation.

    It's fine to want it, but if other voice actors are willing to take the same pay without residuals, why should Rockstar pay more than the market rate for a voice actor?

    If you are suggesting that all voice actors in games should get residuals, then they need to organize like the writer's union did. To expect a company to pay extra just because it's "fair" is silly if they can get the same performance out of someone else for less.

    To be fair, this is exactly what he's saying. He's complaining because his union crafted the contract, and they didn't get him anything like that. He's not blaming Rockstar at all.

  • KonovaKonova Registered User
    edited May 2008
    LOL, Jason Zumwalt is awesome.

    EDIT: Wow, he's even done a hilarious skit about the... Miley Cyrus Vanity Fair photo session

    "It's not murder, it's surprise death!"
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Why should Niko's voice actor get residuals and not, say, the people who wrote the fuckawesome Euphoria character animation engine, or the people who designed the city layout, or the writers?

    Because he actually pays dues to the SAG, and they don't?
    Daedalus wrote: »
    A fuck-tonne of people made that game what it is, and you can't give them all money out of each sale.

    Sure you can - Hollywood's been doing it for years. That said, you may have a system more like what the below-the-line crew uses, where the money goes to fund the staff pension plan and health benefits, instead of being paid directly.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum
    Spoiler:
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Doc wrote: »
    Well, he isn't asking for a million is he? He just wants residual compensation.

    It's fine to want it, but if other voice actors are willing to take the same pay without residuals, why should Rockstar pay more than the market rate for a voice actor?

    If you are suggesting that all voice actors in games should get residuals, then they need to organize like the writer's union did. To expect a company to pay extra just because it's "fair" is silly if they can get the same performance out of someone else for less.

    Um, they are organized, through the SAG. The main issue is that the SAG's contract with game companies doesn't include a residual provision - and that was a MAJOR point of contention the last time it was up for negotiation. I don't think the companies can hold the line for much longer, though.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum
    Spoiler:
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    First off, some of you seem to not get the scope of residuals. Let's go back about 5 months ago, to the middle of the WGA strike. How many of you can remember how much of each $20 DVD the writer saw in residuals?

    Give up? It was $0.02. And they were fighting for a doubling of that. So no, I don't see residuals as being something that will break the bank.

    Edit: Also, people forget that under contract work, you're paid directly, and any taxes are on your head. So $100K sounds nice - till you realize that he's going to pay a nice chunk of that in taxes.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum
    Spoiler:
  • CherrnCherrn Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I have tremendous respect for the voice acting business. Sometimes, voice acting can make or break an entire story. See Legacy of Kain; some of the best voice acting in the history of videogaming. The games wouldn't have been nearly as good without those voices.

    $100.000 is a LOT of money for one job as a voice actor. I doubt voice acting pays extraordinarily well, given the immense amount of jobs you need to take if you want to do it as a living (see the IMDB pages of famous voice actors like Grey DeLisle for instance).

    It's difficult to say how much they deserve to get, though. Unless we're talking about really recognizable voices like the cast of The Simpsons, voice actors are generally replacable. It's not that I don't think they should get more money, but I can certainly see why they're having such a hard time. If they don't have a union they should damn well get on it.

    All creature will die and all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai.
  • amateurhouramateurhour Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Cherrn wrote: »
    I have tremendous respect for the voice acting business. Sometimes, voice acting can make or break an entire story. See Legacy of Kain; some of the best voice acting in the history of videogaming. The games wouldn't have been nearly as good without those voices.

    $100.000 is a LOT of money for one job as a voice actor. I doubt voice acting pays extraordinarily well, given the immense amount of jobs you need to take if you want to do it as a living (see the IMDB pages of famous voice actors like Grey DeLisle for instance).

    It's difficult to say how much they deserve to get, though. Unless we're talking about really recognizable voices like the cast of The Simpsons, voice actors are generally replacable. It's not that I don't think they should get more money, but I can certainly see why they're having such a hard time. If they don't have a union they should damn well get on it.

    It's funny you brought up the Simpsons cast. They just went on de facto strike that will shorten next season by like five episodes because they wanted a bump from 360 to 500 thousand an episode.

    Bunch of assholes

    Here's what I do...
    The Vac - My Science Fiction Epic
    Fortune Pancakes - My Gag-A-Day Comic
  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2008
    Doc wrote: »
    Well, he isn't asking for a million is he? He just wants residual compensation.

    It's fine to want it, but if other voice actors are willing to take the same pay without residuals, why should Rockstar pay more than the market rate for a voice actor?

    If you are suggesting that all voice actors in games should get residuals, then they need to organize like the writer's union did. To expect a company to pay extra just because it's "fair" is silly if they can get the same performance out of someone else for less.

    Um, they are organized, through the SAG. The main issue is that the SAG's contract with game companies doesn't include a residual provision - and that was a MAJOR point of contention the last time it was up for negotiation. I don't think the companies can hold the line for much longer, though.

    If the SAG has the ability to combine negotiating power enough to get better contracts, I'm *absolutely* fine with it. If they aren't leveraging their combined power to the fullest extent they can, it's their problem, not the game producers'.

  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Scooter wrote: »
    Speaking as a guy who will hopefully have a job one day programming stuff, fuck this guy. I'd be willing to bet almost all the behind-the-scenes guys worked harder than this dude, and I'd also bet few of them got paid so well. You could hire the bum from the alley outside to talk into a microphone for a case of beer, he might be somewhat more talented than that but he's got no basis to feel deserving of a million bucks.

    Well, he isn't asking for a million is he? He just wants residual compensation.

    What you are failing to see is that after he finishes this job, he might not get work for a few months, whereas all of those programmers still have a steady job of programming the next big thing.

    Plus, anyone can be a code monkey. Regardless of what you might think, learning to code is not that hard. Talented actors are far rarer than talented coders.
    Haha, right, four years of grueling discrete math and mind-numbing calculus isn't hard at all. Anyone can do it.

  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2008
    Cherrn wrote: »
    I have tremendous respect for the voice acting business. Sometimes, voice acting can make or break an entire story. See Legacy of Kain; some of the best voice acting in the history of videogaming. The games wouldn't have been nearly as good without those voices.

    $100.000 is a LOT of money for one job as a voice actor. I doubt voice acting pays extraordinarily well, given the immense amount of jobs you need to take if you want to do it as a living (see the IMDB pages of famous voice actors like Grey DeLisle for instance).

    It's difficult to say how much they deserve to get, though. Unless we're talking about really recognizable voices like the cast of The Simpsons, voice actors are generally replacable. It's not that I don't think they should get more money, but I can certainly see why they're having such a hard time. If they don't have a union they should damn well get on it.

    It's funny you brought up the Simpsons cast. They just went on de facto strike that will shorten next season by like five episodes because they wanted a bump from 360 to 500 thousand an episode.

    Bunch of assholes

    They have the power to demand it, though. In the end, they will likely be worth $500,000 an episode.

  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2008
    It's funny you brought up the Simpsons cast. They just went on de facto strike that will shorten next season by like five episodes because they wanted a bump from 360 to 500 thousand an episode.

    Bunch of assholes

    What's kind of hilarious about this is that compared to famous face stars on similarly popular shows, they are making a tiny amount of money. Remember when the cast of Friends was making $1 mil each per episode? Simpsons has a much huger draw and they're striking to make half of that.


    In game voice acting, the actor is lucky if they even receive credit for it. One of my friends didn't even know he had a title credit in Eternal Sonata until I played the game and saw it. "Holy shit, they put my name on it?" was his response.

    Voice actors get it pretty rough in the games industry, but they put up with it because the pay is way better than in animation because the budgets tend to be higher.

    Tycho wrote:
    [skyknyt's writing] is like come kind of code that, when comprehended, unfolds into madness in the mind of the reader.
    PSN: skyknyt, Steam: skyknyt
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Doc wrote: »
    Well, he isn't asking for a million is he? He just wants residual compensation.

    It's fine to want it, but if other voice actors are willing to take the same pay without residuals, why should Rockstar pay more than the market rate for a voice actor?

    If you are suggesting that all voice actors in games should get residuals, then they need to organize like the writer's union did. To expect a company to pay extra just because it's "fair" is silly if they can get the same performance out of someone else for less.

    Um, they are organized, through the SAG. The main issue is that the SAG's contract with game companies doesn't include a residual provision - and that was a MAJOR point of contention the last time it was up for negotiation. I don't think the companies can hold the line for much longer, though.

    Not all are SAG. Some are AFTRA, which is more studio-friendly than SAG.

    SAG's probably looking at a strike this summer, and this'll probably be one of their issues. The companies will probably follow the studios and try to negotiate an easier deal with AFTRA, then try to get SAG to accept the same deal (same as they did with the DGA during the WGA strike).

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    There's a lot of talk about "why don't the programmers get residuals" in here, and some people have tried to sum it up, but that's like asking why the set painters and electricians in hollywood don't get residuals.

    Except they do get residuals. It's just that their residual system works differently - instead of each member getting the money directly, the residuals instead go to fund their pension and health plans.

    Seriously, wasn't anyone paying attention during the WGA strike?

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum
    Spoiler:
  • amateurhouramateurhour Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    There's a lot of talk about "why don't the programmers get residuals" in here, and some people have tried to sum it up, but that's like asking why the set painters and electricians in hollywood don't get residuals.

    Except they do get residuals. It's just that their residual system works differently - instead of each member getting the money directly, the residuals instead go to fund their pension and health plans.

    Seriously, wasn't anyone paying attention during the WGA strike?

    No, I was to busy bitching about writers and watching reruns through netflix to get into some new tv shows

    Here's what I do...
    The Vac - My Science Fiction Epic
    Fortune Pancakes - My Gag-A-Day Comic
  • piLpiL Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Is there a business model where all employees continually make money on the product they made? There are fairness issues of course, including fair capital compensation, but I'm still curious.

  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Irond Will wrote: »
    To be clear: star actors are able to demand favorable contracts that often include profit-sharing. o are star musicians. This is not because they're talented (though many are). It's because they are celebrities - their presence in the endeavor is expected to be profitable by the executors of the project, and they can negotiate from a position of strength.

    The guy who voiced Nico Bellic did a great job, but he was in no position to negotiate strongly for the job. Voice actors seldom are, simply because there's (theoretically) a wide pool of talent, and consumers rarely buy products on the basis of the voice acting being done by particular voice actors (with some exception for "real" celebrities filling in as voice actors).
    I look at this as being the same situation the Star Wars people were in in the 1970s. Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher didn't get residuals and were paid scale because no one knew who the hell they were. Harrison Ford bargained a better contract, and had a better bargaining position -- he was experienced.
    Hoz wrote: »
    I can't imagine the producers of this game wasting 15 total months on one voice actor. So he's obviously trying to be misleading by saying "over 15 months". He probably came at the middle of the production, did some work, then came at the end, finished his work.
    He obviously did the work over 15 months, not that he worked for over 15 months on it. There's no way he has enough work to do with his voices and motion capture that it'd take an actual 40hrs a day, 5 days a week, for 15 goddamn months. Even if he voiced everybody in the game, it wouldn't take that long. Even with re-takes. Unless he's a moron... in which case, they'd have canned him after the 50th try of "Hey, it's a me!! Mario!!... er Niko."

    "Adios, mofo" -- TX Gov Rick Perry (R)
  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2008
    piL wrote: »
    Is there a business model where all employees continually make money on the product they made? There are fairness issues of course, including fair capital compensation, but I'm still curious.

    My understanding is that all employees at Craigslist have a share in profits. So do people who work at Half Price books.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    If you guys actually read the article, you'd see that Hollick is actually quite articulate and is thankful to Rockstar. He says the problem is with the union, not the companies.

    optimusighsig.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2008
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    If you guys actually read the article, you'd see that Hollick is actually quite articulate and is thankful to Rockstar. He says the problem is with the union, not the companies.

    Good on him, then.
    Spoiler:

  • HozHoz Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    If you guys actually read the article, you'd see that Hollick is actually quite articulate and is thankful to Rockstar. He says the problem is with the union, not the companies.
    Yeah the part before he credits himself with the creative design of GTA IV.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Doc wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    If you guys actually read the article, you'd see that Hollick is actually quite articulate and is thankful to Rockstar. He says the problem is with the union, not the companies.

    Good on him, then.
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:

    optimusighsig.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • dragonsamadragonsama Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I would like to point out that there are still the "episodes" that are supposed to come out on X-Box live later this year. I am pretty sure they are going to be brining both Hollick and Zumwalt back to reprise their rolls. So it’s not like these guys will never work again. Not to mention that this will be really good on their resume`

    I see this as them trying to put themselves in a better bargaining position for those later projects.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Episodic content is probably going to be (or is) a huge boon for voice actors, since the games which can do it are definitely going to suffer if they have to change around voices.

  • Vrtra TheoryVrtra Theory Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    What you are failing to see is that after he finishes this job, he might not get work for a few months, whereas all of those programmers still have a steady job of programming the next big thing.

    Plus, anyone can be a code monkey. Regardless of what you might think, learning to code is not that hard. Talented actors are far rarer than talented coders.

    A couple of people have commented on this a couple times, but I just wanted to add that while anyone can code, talented coders are not particularly common. The top 5% can easily produce 4x as much work as your average coder, and yet they're still invisible - not because they're more common, but because programmers simply don't have celebrity status, which means they don't get bargaining power. (With very few exceptions.)

  • Rabid_LlamaRabid_Llama Registered User
    edited May 2008
    What you are failing to see is that after he finishes this job, he might not get work for a few months, whereas all of those programmers still have a steady job of programming the next big thing.

    Plus, anyone can be a code monkey. Regardless of what you might think, learning to code is not that hard. Talented actors are far rarer than talented coders.

    A couple of people have commented on this a couple times, but I just wanted to add that while anyone can code, talented coders are not particularly common. The top 5% can easily produce 4x as much work as your average coder, and yet they're still invisible - not because they're more common, but because programmers simply don't have celebrity status, which means they don't get bargaining power. (With very few exceptions.)

    I don't know about that. I would think that if someone really were 4x as productive as 95% of the people in their profession, they could negotiate pretty damn well. If someone is that big of an asset to the company they could make it work.

    While celebrity status certainly helps, I don't think that it is the deciding factor in how much you can negotiate.

    /sig
    The+Rabid+Llama.png
  • SamSam Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I just realized how much of an idiot this guy is. I'm assuming Niko is going to still be the main character in the DLC missions. Maybe, given his pretty universal popularity, he'd be in a sequel. But at the very least there's the DLC that's going to sell like hot cakes.

    Why not shut the fuck up and try to negotiate something there? That or start doing more lucrative voice work, like in animated films.

  • SamSam Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    question- can Dan and Sam Houser actually code anything or do they just dream stuff up according to what's possible with their resources?

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Episodic content is probably going to be (or is) a huge boon for voice actors, since the games which can do it are definitely going to suffer if they have to change around voices.

    They could have done the sessions for DLC the same time as the rest of the game. I would be surprised if they didn't, in fact.

    optimusighsig.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Azio wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    Speaking as a guy who will hopefully have a job one day programming stuff, fuck this guy. I'd be willing to bet almost all the behind-the-scenes guys worked harder than this dude, and I'd also bet few of them got paid so well. You could hire the bum from the alley outside to talk into a microphone for a case of beer, he might be somewhat more talented than that but he's got no basis to feel deserving of a million bucks.

    Well, he isn't asking for a million is he? He just wants residual compensation.

    What you are failing to see is that after he finishes this job, he might not get work for a few months, whereas all of those programmers still have a steady job of programming the next big thing.

    Plus, anyone can be a code monkey. Regardless of what you might think, learning to code is not that hard. Talented actors are far rarer than talented coders.
    Haha, right, four years of grueling discrete math and mind-numbing calculus isn't hard at all. Anyone can do it.

    After looking at the Cell documentation, the idea that I'll probably have to code a complicated multithreaded application for it later this summer is giving me nightmares; whoever at Rockstar managed to extract more power out of that piece of shit than they could out of the relatively straightforward Xenon is getting a great deal more of my respect than any voice actor.

    vvvvvv-dithw.png
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    What you are failing to see is that after he finishes this job, he might not get work for a few months, whereas all of those programmers still have a steady job of programming the next big thing.

    Plus, anyone can be a code monkey. Regardless of what you might think, learning to code is not that hard. Talented actors are far rarer than talented coders.

    A couple of people have commented on this a couple times, but I just wanted to add that while anyone can code, talented coders are not particularly common. The top 5% can easily produce 4x as much work as your average coder, and yet they're still invisible - not because they're more common, but because programmers simply don't have celebrity status, which means they don't get bargaining power. (With very few exceptions.)

    I don't think this is true on a general scale, and its definitely not true where I work at. People who can code well, which has more to do with architecture of the code than actually writing it, get paid extremely well and are high demand. You're not going to make millions, but making good money.

  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2008
    What you are failing to see is that after he finishes this job, he might not get work for a few months, whereas all of those programmers still have a steady job of programming the next big thing.

    Plus, anyone can be a code monkey. Regardless of what you might think, learning to code is not that hard. Talented actors are far rarer than talented coders.

    A couple of people have commented on this a couple times, but I just wanted to add that while anyone can code, talented coders are not particularly common. The top 5% can easily produce 4x as much work as your average coder, and yet they're still invisible - not because they're more common, but because programmers simply don't have celebrity status, which means they don't get bargaining power. (With very few exceptions.)

    I don't know about that. I would think that if someone really were 4x as productive as 95% of the people in their profession, they could negotiate pretty damn well.

    They can, and do.

  • D.T.D.T. Registered User
    edited May 2008
    I'd just like to say that I'd gladly pay Jason Zumwalt to stick his head out of the window while I'm driving and scream "The Bellic Boys are taking over your town, assholes!"

    DxTiddy.png
  • icebergiceberg Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Azio wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    Speaking as a guy who will hopefully have a job one day programming stuff, fuck this guy. I'd be willing to bet almost all the behind-the-scenes guys worked harder than this dude, and I'd also bet few of them got paid so well. You could hire the bum from the alley outside to talk into a microphone for a case of beer, he might be somewhat more talented than that but he's got no basis to feel deserving of a million bucks.

    Well, he isn't asking for a million is he? He just wants residual compensation.

    What you are failing to see is that after he finishes this job, he might not get work for a few months, whereas all of those programmers still have a steady job of programming the next big thing.

    Plus, anyone can be a code monkey. Regardless of what you might think, learning to code is not that hard. Talented actors are far rarer than talented coders.
    Haha, right, four years of grueling discrete math and mind-numbing calculus isn't hard at all. Anyone can do it.

    After looking at the Cell documentation, the idea that I'll probably have to code a complicated multithreaded application for it later this summer is giving me nightmares; whoever at Rockstar managed to extract more power out of that piece of shit than they could out of the relatively straightforward Xenon is getting a great deal more of my respect than any voice actor.

    I just wanted to say how much this kind of shit pisses me off. Why should some coders get more respect than an actor? Because their job doesn't require complex mathematics they don't deserve the same amount of respect for their work?

  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    All due respect to actors, but their job is way, way easier.

    I mean what does an actor do in a typical workday? They stand around waiting a lot, that's what. They read some lines a bunch of times, they smoke a cigarette or two. Their day ends at six, seven o'clock.

    A typical game programmer pounds away at impossibly complicated shit in a hot room all day until his brain begs for mercy and leaks out his ears. Then he sits in interminable meetings about totally pointless shit. Then he pounds away at impossibly complicated shit in a hot room all night until his brain begs for mercy and leaks out his ears.

    Most of the actors I've met are hopelessly depressed pill-poppers anyway.

    Don't get me wrong. A game is a team effort and everyone deserves equal credit for their contributions. But pretending you're someone else in a somewhat convincing manner, on a microphone, is a much easier (and probably more rewarding) way to make money than programming. You probably don't need a B.Sc to do it, either.

  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!

    “Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius
  • MrMisterMrMister Valuing scholarship above all elseRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Oh look, tech types shitting all over the humanities. How novel.

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