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[D&D 4E] This Thread is Defunct.

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Posts

  • MaticoreMaticore Registered User
    edited May 2008
    I really find myself intrigued by the fact that even at epic levels, it seems very hard to game the system into an automatic I-win

    I think it's really helped by the design philosophy WotC took of making combats last more rounds but rounds take up less time

    I mean looking at all of the Epic tier powers, the damage dice don't even break 7 as far as I could tell (I could be wrong though, I must admit I skimmed everything but the paladin)

    Ranger Daily 15:

    You can keep attacking until the target dies if you game this one right, probably the most broken thing I've found yet. Haven't had enough time with the system to take the ability apart and really break it though.

  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    NOR wrote: »
    Can you make daggers into vorpal weapons?

    A daggermaster with a vorpal dagger seems kinda "gamey", I dunno if it's even possible tho.
    No, just axes and heavy blades.

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  • NORNOR Registered User
    edited May 2008
    You haven't seen the vorpal weapon quality then.

    Crit damage: 1d12 per plus, and on any result of a 12 you add 12 to the damage and reroll the die, adding what you got (so rolling a 12 = +1d12+12 dmg), this repeats as often as you roll a 12, even on the rerolls.
    power: daily, free action I think (might be none); use only when you crit with this weapon, roll another 3d12 bonus damage.

    The rogue paragon path the Daggermaster also gets 18-20 crits with a dagger, which is fairly powerful compared to the rest of the crit increases.

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  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    hmm, looking at that exploit... I think it's really context dependent

    I mean sure you can probably game it so you massacre dudes significantly underlevelled

    but I think it's a fair to assume you won't go infinite against an enemy of similar strength or higher

    but that's what I mean, there's nothing about it that says, as written, that it will utterly dismantle an encounter

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  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Maticore wrote: »
    Ranger Daily 15:

    You can keep attacking until the target dies if you game this one right, probably the most broken thing I've found yet. Haven't had enough time with the system to take the ability apart and really break it though.

    IIRC, you can keep making attacks until you miss, meaning that if they have a fairly decent AC, you're not going to one shot your target most of the time.

    Also, it's a Daily power, so it's not really abusable.

  • NORNOR Registered User
    edited May 2008
    NOR wrote: »
    Can you make daggers into vorpal weapons?

    A daggermaster with a vorpal dagger seems kinda "gamey", I dunno if it's even possible tho.
    No, just axes and heavy blades.

    I thought so. So the best you can get is a 19-20 chance to possibly blow up the monster you've critted on the spot.

    Still a +6 vorpal great axe is a minimum of 9d12+18 dmg. And does 12d12+18 once per day.

    With a 7w attack we are looking at 12d12+90 once per day, and at least 6 of those d12s are capable of rollover.

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  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Lvl 30 +6 3,125,000 gp
    Weapon: Axe, Heavy Blade
    Enhancement: Attack rolls and damage rolls
    Critical: +1d12 damage per plus
    Property: Whenever you roll the maximum result on any damage die for this weapon, roll that die again and add the additional result to the damage total. If a reroll results in another maximum damage result, roll it again and keep adding.

    Power (Daily): Free Action. Use this power when you hit with the weapon. Deal an extra 3d12 damage with the attack.

    vorpal weapons are vorpal, this is not news (also you can use the +3d12 when you hit, not when you crit)

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  • NORNOR Registered User
    edited May 2008
    hmm, looking at that exploit... I think it's really context dependent

    I mean sure you can probably game it so you massacre dudes significantly underlevelled

    but I think it's a fair to assume you won't go infinite against an enemy of similar strength or higher

    but that's what I mean, there's nothing about it that says, as written, that it will utterly dismantle an encounter

    Combine it with the right warlord build and warlord attack buffs or debuffs and spend an action point to fire it off and you are looking at doing fairly nasty damage.

    The attack really is best if you co-ordinate your way into a huge bonus to hit for it. If you can manage a huge to hit bonus on a target a warlord as sunder armored you are looking at just leveling something.

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  • delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    NOR wrote: »
    delroland wrote: »
    NOR wrote: »
    The best part is the anti-4e crowd has mostly just gotten louder at this point. Louder and even more non-sensical.

    While the rest of us just stand back and laugh our collective asses off.

    Schadenfreude.

    Gesundheit. :P
    Thanatos wrote: »
    I would also like to point out that I was totally right about "2[W] damage" meaning "two times weapon damage" and not "two wounds."

    Unless you're playing Battlesystem(TM).

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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    NOR wrote: »
    hmm, looking at that exploit... I think it's really context dependent

    I mean sure you can probably game it so you massacre dudes significantly underlevelled

    but I think it's a fair to assume you won't go infinite against an enemy of similar strength or higher

    but that's what I mean, there's nothing about it that says, as written, that it will utterly dismantle an encounter

    Combine it with the right warlord build and warlord attack buffs or debuffs and spend an action point to fire it off and you are looking at doing fairly nasty damage.

    The attack really is best if you co-ordinate your way into a huge bonus to hit for it. If you can manage a huge to hit bonus on a target a warlord as sunder armored you are looking at just leveling something.
    Teamwork is overpowered.

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  • korodullinkorodullin What. Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I'm still on the fence about diving into 4e, myself. Two of my favorite classes (Bard and Druid) are gone, and the class I play the most (Wizard) is nothing like it used to be. Leafing through a friend's PHB, it just seems so... "MMO-y" to me, though I've never really delved deep into the mechanics of anything and tried to break the game.

  • NORNOR Registered User
    edited May 2008
    I wasn't trying to make it sound overpowered, I was just pointing out that it's damn strong if you use it right.

    This stuff really is balanced around you maximizing it's effectiveness via the application of teamwork tho.

    That ranger attack does not assume that you will not be getting any help. It'd be pretty fucking compared to some of the others if it did actually.

    At least as far as I remember. I've only looked through all of the powers once, and I'm playing CoV right now so I cannot look.

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  • NORNOR Registered User
    edited May 2008
    korodullin wrote: »
    I'm still on the fence about diving into 4e, myself. Two of my favorite classes (Bard and Druid) are gone, and the class I play the most (Wizard) is nothing like it used to be. Leafing through a friend's PHB, it just seems so... "MMO-y" to me, though I've never really delved deep into the mechanics of anything and tried to break the game.

    ugh

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I'm actually thinking it is pretty MMO-y, and has a lot of focus around hack 'n' slash (even moreso than 3.0 or 3.5). Those are just initial impressions, though; I'm not making up my mind until I've played it significantly.

  • NORNOR Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Thanatos wrote: »
    I'm actually thinking it is pretty MMO-y, and has a lot of focus around hack 'n' slash (even moreso than 3.0 or 3.5). Those are just initial impressions, though; I'm not making up my mind until I've played it significantly.

    Well duh it's pretty "MMO-y".

    But how the fuck is that a negative point? MMOs excel in the mechanics and are shit in the role playing department. I fail to see how shaping up the game mechanics to something acceptable in this modern age and keeping the fucking role playing intact is a bad fucking thing.

    And how are you getting more focus around hack 'n' slash out of any of these rules.

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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Well, there's the idea that there's much less of a focus on things not directly related to combat and/or adventuring.

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  • NORNOR Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Well, there's the idea that there's much less of a focus on things not directly related to combat and/or adventuring.

    It's a fallacy tho.

    Swehehehehehahahahahahahahahawhawhawhaw
  • HayasaHayasa Registered User
    edited May 2008
    I agree that its pretty MMO-y.

    When I play D&D, I like the out-of-combat stuff probably more than the actual combat. The skill system has been reduced to broad categories with massive gaps, and even if you look at Wizard spells, it all seems to be about killing.

    There's clearly more focus around hack `n' slash, because there's no rules or guidelines in place for actual roleplaying beyond alignment.

  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Hayasa wrote: »
    There's clearly more focus around hack `n' slash, because there's no rules or guidelines in place for actual roleplaying beyond alignment.


    Why in the fucking nine hells do you need rules for roleplaying?

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic I've Done Worse Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    NOR wrote: »
    Well, there's the idea that there's much less of a focus on things not directly related to combat and/or adventuring.

    It's a fallacy tho.

    Nah, it's just slightly off point. It has much less of a focus on anything that isn't directly quantifiable (which looks like the above statement but is different.) It would lead to a "tighter" game than 3rd but it's much less open.

    "When you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. When you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."

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  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    well

    I mean

    let's look at it objectively

    the game is called Dungeons... and Dragons

    it is not called Dining Rooms and Diplomats, nor is it called Boardrooms and Businessmen

    and the biggest fallacy of all is somehow saying that the roleplaying has been taken out and 3.5 supported it soooo much better

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  • delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    The only things I see that are "MMO-y" are the solidification of roles (defender/controller/etc) and the crowd control abilities. MAYBE the short rest to recharge thing, but that is a bit of a stretch.

    In all cases, I would counter that these are all instances of borrowing some of the better ideas from an MMO and using them as inspiration in streamlining the new system. Previous versions of D&D have always had players with roles; they just didn't have terms for those roles. What's more, most of the characters didn't have adequate abilities to fill those roles. Now they do, and I fail to see how that is a bad thing.

    Also, less down time means more adventuring, which in turn means more fun - another "MMO thing" I think is a change for the better.

    I would also like to point out that most of the powers, feats, and skills (for monsters and PC's) have little or no equivalent in an MMO. You can't make Nature checks to deactivate Hungarfen's mushrooms before they explode in a cloud of acid. You don't make an Arcana skill challenge in order to figure out how to detonate the Blood Elf bomb in Terrokar. WoW (and all other MMO's) lack that depth, and D&D is leagues more complex in what you can do with the rules. WotC simply made the new edition retain that complexity while shedding much of the complication.

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  • NORNOR Registered User
    edited May 2008
    There have never been any more rules or guidelines for role playing in any version of dnd I've played (2nd edition and up) than 4th edition has.

    A few of the rules in 4th edition (most notably skill challenges) actually help to foster role playing.

    DnD is now, and has always been about combat. Better rules for combat can only be a good thing.

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  • mightyspacepopemightyspacepope Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    What about skill challenges?

    With that said, I prefer keeping my roleplaying free of rules and guidelines and more freeform for the characters to come up with on their own.

    EDIT: Damn, that was a fast set of replies.

    grimbanner.jpg
  • HayasaHayasa Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Hayasa wrote: »
    There's clearly more focus around hack `n' slash, because there's no rules or guidelines in place for actual roleplaying beyond alignment.


    Why in the fucking nine hells do you need rules for roleplaying?
    Why do I need 29 levels of power that basically say "you do an extra d6 damage/healing"?

  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Hayasa wrote: »
    Hayasa wrote: »
    There's clearly more focus around hack `n' slash, because there's no rules or guidelines in place for actual roleplaying beyond alignment.


    Why in the fucking nine hells do you need rules for roleplaying?
    Why do I need 29 levels of power that basically say "you do an extra d6 damage/healing"?
    What an informative answer.

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  • HayasaHayasa Registered User
    edited May 2008
    well

    I mean

    let's look at it objectively

    the game is called Dungeons... and Dragons

    it is not called Dining Rooms and Diplomats, nor is it called Boardrooms and Businessmen
    Its not called Hack and Slash either.

  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    hayasa, I'm not trying to be rude here, but come on, you have to understand you're in the minority when it comes to people who play DnD for the great roleplaying

    mind you, I am not saying your style is wrong

    I'm just saying that for a great many more people, DnD's allure is its tight combat rules

    I mean I love 4e because everything I've read points toward easing the workload of everybody at the table (DM especially)

    so when you go on and on about hack and slash and stuff, well, yes... DnD is at its very basic core, about killing a monster and taking its stuff.

    it's YOUR job to inject the roleplaying.

    EDIT: okay seriously, are you trying to be an asshat or what

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Okay, guys, chill out. I was giving initial impressions.

    And as for "why do you need rules for role-playing?" Well, you don't, but the rules of a system can help or hinder with it. The vast majority of abilities in this game are exclusively related to combat, and those that aren't exclusively related to combat are very broad, and not well fleshed-out.

    I realize that this is Dungeons and Dragons, and I realize that that is largely what the game should be about, but my initial impression is that this game seems to have a significantly bigger emphasis on combat than 3.0/3.5 did, and a significant de-emphasis on non-combat activities. And I'm sure--much like that MMO feel--that that's what a lot of people are looking for; it's just not what I'm necessarily looking for.

  • NORNOR Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Hayasa wrote: »
    Hayasa wrote: »
    There's clearly more focus around hack `n' slash, because there's no rules or guidelines in place for actual roleplaying beyond alignment.


    Why in the fucking nine hells do you need rules for roleplaying?
    Why do I need 29 levels of power that basically say "you do an extra d6 damage/healing"?

    For better killing of stuff in a game about killing stuff.

    White wolf makes pretty damn good role playing game systems with a good focus on role playing. You might like to check those out.

    On the other hand if what you crave from your role playing is over complicated rules that attempt to simulate reality might I suggest GURPS.

    If you want to roleplay with your buddies and chop up monsters in interesting and impressive ways, while slowly becoming a total bad ass DnD is your game.

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  • HayasaHayasa Registered User
    edited May 2008
    hayasa, I'm not trying to be rude here, but come on, you have to understand you're in the minority when it comes to people who play DnD for the great roleplaying

    mind you, I am not saying your style is wrong

    I'm just saying that for a great many more people, DnD's allure is its tight combat rules
    No worries. If thats the case, then why are so many mouthbreathers here getting their panties in a twist about comments that its becoming more MMOish, with less focus on roleplaying as opposed to rollplaying?

  • NORNOR Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Thanatos wrote: »
    those that aren't exclusively related to combat are very broad, and not well fleshed-out.

    This is a positive for roleplaying you realize?

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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Hayasa wrote: »
    hayasa, I'm not trying to be rude here, but come on, you have to understand you're in the minority when it comes to people who play DnD for the great roleplaying

    mind you, I am not saying your style is wrong

    I'm just saying that for a great many more people, DnD's allure is its tight combat rules
    No worries. If thats the case, then why are so many mouthbreathers here getting their panties in a twist about comments that its becoming more MMOish, with less focus on roleplaying as opposed to rollplaying?
    That's why I'm waiting for you to, you know, answer the question.

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  • HayasaHayasa Registered User
    edited May 2008
    No worries. If thats the case, then why are so many mouthbreathers here getting their panties in a twist about comments that its becoming more MMOish, with less focus on roleplaying as opposed to rollplaying?
    That's why I'm waiting for you to, you know, answer the question.
    I'm quite certain that you don't want an answer; you just want to warp what I say and try to make me look like an idiot for having a different viewpoint. Why would I answer you?

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    NOR wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    those that aren't exclusively related to combat are very broad, and not well fleshed-out.
    This is a positive for roleplaying you realize?
    No, it's really not.

  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Hayasa wrote: »
    hayasa, I'm not trying to be rude here, but come on, you have to understand you're in the minority when it comes to people who play DnD for the great roleplaying

    mind you, I am not saying your style is wrong

    I'm just saying that for a great many more people, DnD's allure is its tight combat rules
    No worries. If thats the case, then why are so many mouthbreathers here getting their panties in a twist about comments that its becoming more MMOish, with less focus on roleplaying as opposed to rollplaying?

    okay first of all calling people here mouthbreathers doesn't make you look like you're at all interested in a coherent discussion.

    second of all, don't bring the stormwind fallacy up in here. roleplaying and 'rollplaying' is not mutually exclusive.

    thirdly, this discussion has replayed itself millions of times by now all across the internet, and several times here alone. most of us are tired of saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over again. if you want to hear the debate again, instead of coming in and hollering about how DnD killed your roleplaying and then your parents yada yada yada, you should just read about 20 pages back. it will save everyone some time and annoyance.

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  • NORNOR Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Thanatos wrote: »
    NOR wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    those that aren't exclusively related to combat are very broad, and not well fleshed-out.
    This is a positive for roleplaying you realize?
    No, it's really not.

    Hold on a second.

    You think more detailed (and my their very nature details are restrictive) rules would be a good thing for roleplaying and not a bad thing?

    Roleplaying is about imagination and voicing/acting ones imagination out, it's about communicating these made up things, it's about interacting in the framework of the things you communicated.

    How, exactly, do rules help here?

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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous WALK 3X FASTER New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Hayasa wrote: »
    No worries. If thats the case, then why are so many mouthbreathers here getting their panties in a twist about comments that its becoming more MMOish, with less focus on roleplaying as opposed to rollplaying?
    That's why I'm waiting for you to, you know, answer the question.
    I'm quite certain that you don't want an answer; you just want to warp what I say and try to make me look like an idiot for having a different viewpoint. Why would I answer you?

    I'm actually really damned curious as to why you think roleplay is only roleplay when you have strict guidelines and rules to work within.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic I've Done Worse Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    NOR wrote: »
    Hold on a second.

    You think more detailed (and my their very nature details are restrictive) rules would be a good thing for roleplaying and not a bad thing?

    Roleplaying is about imagination and voicing/acting ones imagination out, it's about communicating these made up things, it's about interacting in the framework of the things you communicated.

    How, exactly, do rules help here?
    A requirement for any believable fiction is that people act like people. At several points 4th makes assumptions that people do things because it's good for the game.

    Wandering Merchants? Yeah, fuck no.

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  • NORNOR Registered User
    edited May 2008
    NOR wrote: »
    Hold on a second.

    You think more detailed (and my their very nature details are restrictive) rules would be a good thing for roleplaying and not a bad thing?

    Roleplaying is about imagination and voicing/acting ones imagination out, it's about communicating these made up things, it's about interacting in the framework of the things you communicated.

    How, exactly, do rules help here?
    A requirement for any believable fiction is that people act like people. At several points 4th makes assumptions that people do things because it's good for the game.

    Wandering Merchants? Yeah, fuck no.

    Err...

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This discussion has been closed.