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Heller Affirmed - SCOTUS Upholds 2nd Amendment Individual Right Determination
Answering a 127-year old constitutional question, the Supreme Court ruled on Thursday that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to have a gun, at least in one’s home. The Court, splitting 5-4, struck down a District of Columbia ban on handgun possession.
Justice Antonin Scalia’s opinion for the majority stressed that the Court was not casting doubt on long-standing bans on gun possession by felons or the mentally retarded, or laws barring guns from schools or government buildings, or laws putting conditions on gun sales
In fact, I would vote for a candidate, no matter what, if they promised to cleanse the country of single-issue voters.
Don't do it, MikeMan! It's suicide!
"Despite all the bitching, if Diablo 3 sucks, I will eat my own cock. Counter-claim: If Diablo 3 does not suck, I will have a list of whiners who need to eat cocks." - Zen Vulgarity
Boo. I don't think anyone should be able to have a gun. Not even the fucking military. No one has the right to wield that sort of power.
Goddamn I've become a hippie.
How do you feel about pointy sticks? Automobiles?
Automobiles are not designed for the express purpose of killing/wounding. If someone insists on self-protection, they'd be better off with a taser, knife or pepper spray or some shit. Much less chance of accidental hurtings.
So now it's about guns being more accident prone? People here in the U.S. might be better off with those things for self-defense, but I don't think our troops would feel all that safe if we took away their rifles and armed them with mace.
Obviously we can't take away the military's guns... I meant it as more of a "let's all smoke pot and achieve world peace" statement. Though we should definitely spend a lot less money on that shit.
They are developing all sorts of non-lethal weapons, which is great but doesn't exactly seem to be high-priority.
Well, as a gun control semi-advocate, this ruling really isn't nearly as bad as I'd feared it could have been, since it didn't incorporate the 2nd Amendment to the states, and made sure to declare that the individual right to own a firearm granted by the 2nd Amendment is in fact rather limited:
“Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.”
“Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”
“We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those ‘in common use at the time.’ 307 U. S., at 179.”
Oh, and if you ever want to re-affirm why you shouldn't have gone to law school, try reading the part of Scalia's opinion where he parses, in mind-numbing detail, the exact legal definition of every single word of the 2nd Amendment.
On that alone I am a single issue voter (or in this election, will abstain), because without it all the others mean nothing.
That's not actually true (see: the rest of the first world), so I think you should vote.
Because 9% think it's too high, and shouldn't be cut! 9% of respondents could not fully
get their arms around the question. There should be another box you can check for, "I
have utterly no idea what you're talking about. Please, God, don't ask for my input."
Well, as a gun control semi-advocate, this ruling really isn't nearly as bad as I'd feared it could have been, since it didn't incorporate the 2nd Amendment to the states, and made sure to declare that the individual right to own a firearm granted by the 2nd Amendment is in fact rather limited:
“Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.â€
“Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.â€
“We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those ‘in common use at the time.’ 307 U. S., at 179.â€
It's pretty much what they hinted at back in Oral Arguments. Though I'm kinda surprised it split 5-4. I had thought it'd go 6-3.
I don't think all of the judges on the dissenting side actually agree with where they placed their stance. I think it was more of a way to soften the precedent than anything.
Yes, because trying to control handguns when a state that has abysmal control is an hour away will totally be representative of effective gun control. Now, whether banning handguns is an effective gun control method or not I don't know, but I do know that it doesn't help when there's an easily accessed supply right next door.
It's tough to say how much of a role proximity plays when you take into account bans in Britain which is an island nation plus chunnel.
I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
I don't think all of the judges on the dissenting side actually agree with where they placed their stance. I think it was more of a way to soften the precedent than anything.
I couldn't find the title edit. Where is it?
Why do you think this?
Double click the thread box on the forum index to edit the title
Oh, and if you ever want to re-affirm why you shouldn't have gone to law school, try reading the part of Scalia's opinion where he parses, in mind-numbing detail, the exact legal definition of every single word of the 2nd Amendment.
Scalia often says and does things that suggest he has no perception of historical context.
On that alone I am a single issue voter (or in this election, will abstain), because without it all the others mean nothing.
No, they really do. Being deprived of Habeus Corpus matters a good deal whether or not you can own a gun. The politicization of Justice matters a lot, whether or not you can own a gun. &c.
Oh, and if you ever want to re-affirm why you shouldn't have gone to law school, try reading the part of Scalia's opinion where he parses, in mind-numbing detail, the exact legal definition of every single word of the 2nd Amendment.
Scalia often says and does things that suggest he has no perception of historical context.
Well, as a gun control semi-advocate, this ruling really isn't nearly as bad as I'd feared it could have been,
You might say we... dodged a bullet.
:winky:
That's a pretty hollow point to make.
Also seriously Peeking you kinda gotta be more than a single-issue voter for anyone to give a crap about your position. As much as people love to be daring martyrs and abstain, wouldn't it be more useful to vote for dudes you pretty much enjoy and then persuade them that your position is significant?
I mean, say Obama doesn't think.... I don't even know, net neutrality is a big deal. It would be too bad for me, the net neutrality superfreak that I theoretically am. But if I mostly dig his positions, I could always vote for him and then start a letter-writing campaign saying "Pay attention to this it is super important!". It lacks the verve of saying "psssh they're BOTH jerks" but it has higher odds of actually bringing the outcome you desire.
Well, as a gun control semi-advocate, this ruling really isn't nearly as bad as I'd feared it could have been, since it didn't incorporate the 2nd Amendment to the states, and made sure to declare that the individual right to own a firearm granted by the 2nd Amendment is in fact rather limited:
“Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.â€
“Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.â€
“We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those ‘in common use at the time.’ 307 U. S., at 179.â€
It's pretty much what they hinted at back in Oral Arguments. Though I'm kinda surprised it split 5-4. I had thought it'd go 6-3.
At this point I expect every single SCOTUS case to split 5-4.
I know that as an European the culture gap won't allow me to ever understand the American attitude towards firearms.
But I'll still say that it's retarded that you have to take a test to be allowed to drive a car but you don't have to do something similar when you want to own a gun.
The Swiss own more guns per capita than we do...
Switzerland is, if I'm correct, rather special in that regard. During your, at least for men, mandatory military service, you get your own gun and are of course trained in the use of it.
Then, at the end of your military service, you take your gun home with you. So pretty much every household has at least one gun, but its owner is trained in its use, and I'll expect the military does some basic psychological checking too.
I don't think it's a system that would work in any other country than Switzerland, though. And I don't know how well it works, but you don't hear much about school-shootings from there...
If someone knows the Swiss system better than me, feel free to correct my incoherent ramblings
Have a look at the violence statistics on Native reserves. Comparable to the US.
Availability of guns has little effect on the actual rate of violent crime. The only thing it affects is what weapon that violent crime is committed with. While that may be worth it for control, it is my belief that crime is more a factor of poverty and disenfranchisement.
That said, other than the registry, which is retarded, I think Canada is doing it right. No automatic weapons, required licensing for owners, heavy restrictions on pistols. :^:
Almost every mass genocide in history was preceded by sweeping gun control. I really don't think this was a coincidence. And suspending habeus corpus is a whole lot easier when there isn't a whole lot of blood on your hands. Not that the citizens could overpower the government, but they could make it bloody enough to deter these actions. Sort of a mutually assured destruction, only in the form of a second civil war.
I do agree that trying to enforce a law like this doesn't work very well, but I still think the dissenting opinion is a bit more salient than the majority opinion.
Somehow I doubt crime rates or firearm deaths will go down in D.C. with the gun ban lifted. Just as conceal and carry laws have not helped reduce crime rates in multiple areas.
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
On every other issue I'd agree. I've voted for people I vehemently disagree with on other issue and campaigns and I've voted with both parties. On this I can't imagine voting for a candidate against it. It just seems fundamental.
Honestly if this thread had more pictures of racks, it would be better. No, not spice racks.
Gun racks?
"Despite all the bitching, if Diablo 3 sucks, I will eat my own cock. Counter-claim: If Diablo 3 does not suck, I will have a list of whiners who need to eat cocks." - Zen Vulgarity
Almost every mass genocide in history was preceded by sweeping gun control. I really don't think this was a coincidence. And suspending habeus corpus is a whole lot easier when there isn't a whole lot of blood on your hands. Not that the citizens could overpower the government, but they could make it bloody enough to deter these actions. Sort of a mutually assured destruction, only in the form of a second civil war.
So the citizens cannot overpower the government through force, but unless we have the right to own guns, to ensure we fail at trying to overthrow the government via force, nothing else matters? Your logic eats itself.
And suspending Habeus Corpus is a whole hell of a lot easier when people only vote on whether or not you get to keep your glock.
Yes, because trying to control handguns when a state that has abysmal control is an hour away will totally be representative of effective gun control. Now, whether banning handguns is an effective gun control method or not I don't know, but I do know that it doesn't help when there's an easily accessed supply right next door.
It's tough to say how much of a role proximity plays when you take into account bans in Britain which is an island nation plus chunnel.
The point is that there's a state literally next door with abysmal control laws.
Because 9% think it's too high, and shouldn't be cut! 9% of respondents could not fully
get their arms around the question. There should be another box you can check for, "I
have utterly no idea what you're talking about. Please, God, don't ask for my input."
Almost every mass genocide in history was preceded by sweeping gun control. I really don't think this was a coincidence. And suspending habeus corpus is a whole lot easier when there isn't a whole lot of blood on your hands. Not that the citizens could overpower the government, but they could make it bloody enough to deter these actions. Sort of a mutually assured destruction, only in the form of a second civil war.
Almost every mass genocide in history was preceded by sweeping gun control. I really don't think this was a coincidence. And suspending habeus corpus is a whole lot easier when there isn't a whole lot of blood on your hands. Not that the citizens could overpower the government, but they could make it bloody enough to deter these actions. Sort of a mutually assured destruction, only in the form of a second civil war.
I'd like to see some examples of these genocides preceded by gun control, because I can't think of a single one.
Posts
Obviously we can't take away the military's guns... I meant it as more of a "let's all smoke pot and achieve world peace" statement. Though we should definitely spend a lot less money on that shit.
They are developing all sorts of non-lethal weapons, which is great but doesn't exactly seem to be high-priority.
Spot the irony.
I would, yes.
You might say we... dodged a bullet.
:winky:
Because 9% think it's too high, and shouldn't be cut! 9% of respondents could not fully
get their arms around the question. There should be another box you can check for, "I
have utterly no idea what you're talking about. Please, God, don't ask for my input."
It's pretty much what they hinted at back in Oral Arguments. Though I'm kinda surprised it split 5-4. I had thought it'd go 6-3.
...really?
Out of curiousity, where do you live?
How do you mean?
I couldn't find the title edit. Where is it?
It's tough to say how much of a role proximity plays when you take into account bans in Britain which is an island nation plus chunnel.
Why do you think this?
Double click the thread box on the forum index to edit the title
Scalia often says and does things that suggest he has no perception of historical context.
Correlation does not equal causation, except when its convenient.
No, they really do. Being deprived of Habeus Corpus matters a good deal whether or not you can own a gun. The politicization of Justice matters a lot, whether or not you can own a gun. &c.
Except when it aligns with his position
That's a pretty hollow point to make.
Also seriously Peeking you kinda gotta be more than a single-issue voter for anyone to give a crap about your position. As much as people love to be daring martyrs and abstain, wouldn't it be more useful to vote for dudes you pretty much enjoy and then persuade them that your position is significant?
I mean, say Obama doesn't think.... I don't even know, net neutrality is a big deal. It would be too bad for me, the net neutrality superfreak that I theoretically am. But if I mostly dig his positions, I could always vote for him and then start a letter-writing campaign saying "Pay attention to this it is super important!". It lacks the verve of saying "psssh they're BOTH jerks" but it has higher odds of actually bringing the outcome you desire.
BUT that is kind of a tangent.
http://troublethinking.wordpress.com (Updated Wed) http://twitter.com/#!/Durandal4532
At this point I expect every single SCOTUS case to split 5-4.
Switzerland is, if I'm correct, rather special in that regard. During your, at least for men, mandatory military service, you get your own gun and are of course trained in the use of it.
Then, at the end of your military service, you take your gun home with you. So pretty much every household has at least one gun, but its owner is trained in its use, and I'll expect the military does some basic psychological checking too.
I don't think it's a system that would work in any other country than Switzerland, though. And I don't know how well it works, but you don't hear much about school-shootings from there...
If someone knows the Swiss system better than me, feel free to correct my incoherent ramblings
Availability of guns has little effect on the actual rate of violent crime. The only thing it affects is what weapon that violent crime is committed with. While that may be worth it for control, it is my belief that crime is more a factor of poverty and disenfranchisement.
That said, other than the registry, which is retarded, I think Canada is doing it right. No automatic weapons, required licensing for owners, heavy restrictions on pistols. :^:
Wat
Somehow I doubt crime rates or firearm deaths will go down in D.C. with the gun ban lifted. Just as conceal and carry laws have not helped reduce crime rates in multiple areas.
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
On every other issue I'd agree. I've voted for people I vehemently disagree with on other issue and campaigns and I've voted with both parties. On this I can't imagine voting for a candidate against it. It just seems fundamental.
Yeah, those Canadian genocides since gun control was introduced decades ago are really getting out of hand.
So the citizens cannot overpower the government through force, but unless we have the right to own guns, to ensure we fail at trying to overthrow the government via force, nothing else matters? Your logic eats itself.
And suspending Habeus Corpus is a whole hell of a lot easier when people only vote on whether or not you get to keep your glock.
Because 9% think it's too high, and shouldn't be cut! 9% of respondents could not fully
get their arms around the question. There should be another box you can check for, "I
have utterly no idea what you're talking about. Please, God, don't ask for my input."
Yes. No it doesn't.
Overpower does not equal overthrow.
Correlation =/= causation.
...but our government is soooo malevolent? Is that what you are implying?
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
I'd like to see some examples of these genocides preceded by gun control, because I can't think of a single one.