White privelege + white mans guilt = fun to be a white guy!
It's not like I go up to places and say "HEY, LET ME GET A LOAN... WITH THE WHITE APR *wink nudge*", which apparently is what a lot of people here think.
It's actually been demonstrated for those of us with the astonishing superpower to click on links. It's ironic that you complain about this in the same breath as talking about how awesome you are because you do your own work.
For instance, they traveled across the country one time, and they noticed that, on average, if his wife would book a room at a motel, she would get a more expensive rate. So they decided to experiment, and have her go in first and ask for a price, and then have him go in. Almost across the board his rate was lower, and if they told his wife there were no rooms available sometimes they would say differently for him.
What kind of places were they staying at? Do the sales terminals at Motal 8 have buttons on them for each race? I wonder...when I booked my room at the Sheraton for PAX, had a made clear that I was white, would I have gotten a better deal?
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
White privelege + white mans guilt = fun to be a white guy!
It's not like I go up to places and say "HEY, LET ME GET A LOAN... WITH THE WHITE APR *wink nudge*", which apparently is what a lot of people here think.
It's actually been demonstrated for those of us with the astonishing superpower to click on links. It's ironic that you complain about this in the same breath as talking about how awesome you are because you do your own work.
Really? I said I was awesome? I said I had to WORK for my shit, and I do to this DAY. If that's "awesome" as opposed to, you know, "normal", then what the fuck.
And I've heard plenty about white people getting better this, better that. I think it's crap. I think it's mostly due to monetary and class status. You think I'll get a bigger/better loan than Tiger Woods (assuming he'd need a loan, that is)?
No.
jungleroomx on
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
That's because an essential component of racism is power - the power to systematically make other people's lives shittier.
So, if a poor, unemployed white guy calls a rich and succesful black guy a n----r, that's not racism since the white guy isn't in a position of power over the black guy?
What happens if the rich, successful black guy decks the poor unemployed white guy? I can tell you what happens in L.A.: the cops are called, he gets made to kneel at gunpoint and systematically humiliated on a public street.
Of course, that doesn't happen everywhere, because money is a decent insulator against a lot of things, including racism, and class bigotry is its own issue. But I bet that unemployed white guy doesn't need to dress up in his Sunday best to drive through certain parts of town without getting pulled over. That's a power the other guy either doesn't have or has to pay through the nose for.
And I think that black people that think whites don't get impacted by racism are very ignorant.
Very ignorant of....what, exactly? If there's a case of a group of powerful black men systematically shutting whites out of something - jobs or legal representation or health care or something - and it's really well known enough that someone's 'ignorant' for not knowing about it, then obviously it would be no trouble at all for you to supply a citation right about now.
Being poor and even being descriminated againest, ridiculous as it may sound, should not be a free pass to be racist yourself. I doubt there would be any serious citation as it is likely just the thought of such a study would be deemed racist.
Frankly, there are many forms of socially acceptable racism. The reason I get irrated about racism is that certain minorities are "allowed" to call racism while certain other groups can not.
THAT is what irritates you about racism? The other more oppressive stuff is just kinda ho-hum, huh?
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
And I've heard plenty about white people getting better this, better that. I think it's crap. I think it's mostly due to monetary and class status.
That's great. The actual evidence helpfully provided in the links says otherwise. It's a shame that your idea of working hard apparently doesn't include basic reading.
Jacobkosh on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
That's because an essential component of racism is power - the power to systematically make other people's lives shittier.
So, if a poor, unemployed white guy calls a rich and succesful black guy a n----r, that's not racism since the white guy isn't in a position of power over the black guy?
What happens if the rich, successful black guy decks the poor unemployed white guy? I can tell you what happens in L.A.: the cops are called, he gets made to kneel at gunpoint and systematically humiliated on a public street.
Of course, that doesn't happen everywhere, because money is a decent insulator against a lot of things, including racism, and class bigotry is its own issue. But I bet that unemployed white guy doesn't need to dress up in his Sunday best to drive through certain parts of town without getting pulled over. That's a power the other guy either doesn't have or has to pay through the nose for.
So it's alright be the single white guy in Compton/Long Beach these days?
I know in D.C. I've been threatened, hit, and jumped more times than I can count (not really, but enough times) on the account I was a "cracka who lost his way", even though I lived in Southeast D.C. on South Capitol Street.
Not uncommon either.
Of course, you don't hear about that.
jungleroomx on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
And I've heard plenty about white people getting better this, better that. I think it's crap. I think it's mostly due to monetary and class status.
That's great. The actual evidence helpfully provided in the links says otherwise. It's a shame that your idea of working hard apparently doesn't include basic reading.
That's not to say there isn't also monetary and class structures, but claiming that racism is in any way insignificant is ridiculous.
Fencingsax on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
And I've heard plenty about white people getting better this, better that. I think it's crap. I think it's mostly due to monetary and class status.
That's great. The actual evidence helpfully provided in the links says otherwise. It's a shame that your idea of working hard apparently doesn't include basic reading.
A spokesman for the mortgage banking industry challenged the conclusion, saying the report did not take into account all the legitimate questions about family wealth and debt, house appraisal and other factors that underwriters must consider when making a loan.
Once that niggling little detail has been taken care of, I will believe the reports. Credit score is ONE factor in determining mortgage rates.
Scientific experiments require a control and variables. This "proof" you speak of is all derived from data coming from variables, with no real control to verify that the findings are correct. I could have a credit score of, say, 685, and make $20,000 a year, with $5000 in debts from SOMETHING. Someone else could have a credit score of 685, and make $50,000 a year, and be relatively debt-free, and they WILL get better rates on everything than I will.
Also, in line with you not addressing the shortcomings of each study:
Both studies have their shortcomings; the California records give only broad indicators of economic achievement, and studying whose resumes elicit callbacks doesn't show who ultimately gets the jobs or what they do once employed.
ALSO:
Which companies? Where were the black applicants names addressed from? Did they try sticking white names in Compton or Inglewood to see if the reactions were the same?
Sorry. I do think racism exists, I've already stated that, but these studies still don't convince me.
That's why I don't take these studies to heart.
Do I deny racism exists? No. I just think the idea of racism being a "white only" club is ridiculous. Granted, all I can show you are anecdotes, but the supporting evidence that was given earlier is shaky at best.
as some sort of contempt will almost certainly bred, as can be seen by the bitterness that some people hold toward Black history month.
I want to point something out about Black history month. I personally hold contempt for the idea of it because it breeds the idea that it's somehow only "their" history thereby only being relevant to blacks. The Civil Rights Movement isn't a major part of "Black history," it's a major part of American history and teaching it only in February makes it seem like some sort of farce, like Black is actually just a foreign country somewhere in the South.
Beyond that I think there are also much more important issues pertaining to American race relations that just seem to get glossed over. It's mostly just lists of inventors and "the first black person to _______" that get trumpeted around, rather than things that represent significant moments in American culture and politics pertaining to the black experience. Who talks about the experiences of the freed slaves during the Reconstruction and the introduction of sharecropping as the new means of slavery? Where are the actual discussions about white priviledge, what it means, and how to stop it? Where are the discussions about how not being prejudiced doesn't mean just not saying the N word, it's a point at which you see people for who they are? And even then, these discussions are bigger than "black history," they're about how to teach people, especially our children, how to be intelligent and rational human beings.
Yeah, the people who say "It's just not fair, I want a white history month" are being fucking retarded. And yeah, it's easy to see how the idea of Black History Month came out of the frustrations of people who couldn't get the historical events pertaining to the black experience in America enough exposure, so they just said "Fuck it, let's just make a month where we add it on top of everything." Still, it's perpetuating the idea in our culture that there should be some kind of power struggle among the races, and the only way to get equality is to take it from someone else.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
And I've heard plenty about white people getting better this, better that. I think it's crap. I think it's mostly due to monetary and class status.
That's great. The actual evidence helpfully provided in the links says otherwise. It's a shame that your idea of working hard apparently doesn't include basic reading.
That's not to say there isn't also monetary and class structures, but claiming that racism is in any way insignificant is ridiculous.
Not saying it's insignificant.
I'm saying people are trying to prove it's existence through the wrong means and, without concrete proof, claim they have concrete proof.
They also tend to believe that there seems to be some sort of nation-wide system of discrimination (reaching down to the hotel level, my god) set up like something out of fucking a Metal Gear Solid storyline. Some evil Arsenal Gear of racism controlling everything from the shadows, denying people of non-white origins good loan rates, hotel rooms, and jobs.
When the more concise explanation is some people are dicks, and the shit is more isolated than it is widespread, as far as the examples go.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I know in D.C. I've been threatened, hit, and jumped more times than I can count (not really, but enough times) on the account I was a "cracka who lost his way", even though I lived in Southeast D.C. on South Capitol Street.
And then they followed you home and denied you a loan, right? If the worst thing you can say is that a bunch of jobless, uneducated, dirt-poor people treated you like shit when you wandered into their neighborhood - well, that's just not particularly shocking. You might get much the same reaction driving an Infiniti through certain small towns. People being petty and tribalistic is a sad fact of life; what you and people like you have utterly failed to understand is that the anti-racism movement is trying to get rid of the official endorsement of it: of people being denied loans and educations, of not receiving job interviews, or of being the victim of overweening authority because they belong to group X.
Of course, you don't hear about that.
Because of the powerful black conspiracy against you, right?
EDIT: and oh hey, you're still arguing without having read the links helpfully supplied. What a fucking shocker. When you use phrases like "everyone knows" or "I don't have any proof, but..." then it's time to look in the mirror and consider that the dude there just may be full of shit.
Jacobkosh on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I know in D.C. I've been threatened, hit, and jumped more times than I can count (not really, but enough times) on the account I was a "cracka who lost his way", even though I lived in Southeast D.C. on South Capitol Street.
And then they followed you home and denied you a loan, right? If the worst thing you can say is that a bunch of jobless, uneducated, dirt-poor people treated you like shit when you wandered into their neighborhood - well, that's just not particularly shocking. You might get much the same reaction driving an Infiniti through certain small towns. People being petty and tribalistic is a sad fact of life; what you and people like you have utterly failed to understand is that the anti-racism movement is trying to get rid of the official endorsement of it: of people being denied loans and educations, of not receiving job interviews, or of being the victim of overweening authority because they belong to group X.
Of course, you don't hear about that.
Because of the powerful black conspiracy against you, right?
Wandered into "their" neighborhood? I LIVED A BLOCK AWAY. I WANDERED INTO MY FUCKING NEIGHBORHOOD.
And no, you don't hear about it because it's common sense when a white guy gets beat up in an inner city, regardless of where they live. It's a national travesty if it happens to a black guy in the backwoods of Oklahoma.
jungleroomx on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited July 2008
I read the links and addressed them.
I'm waiting for you to address the discrepancies of their reports and their basis in reality, because most of them jump to conclusions without supportable evidence.
The only one that COULD be considered is the job application one, but even then work history and employment reccomendation aren't specifically detailed.
I actually agree with everything you just said about Black History Month, Comrade. Farce is a good word for it. Even as a kid, I noticed that we used the same posters with facts about the same famous black inventors every year. I figured that there had to be more black people who did equally awesome stuff that we still weren't learning about. But don't we still teach kids that Christopher Columbus is some kind of hero?
A lot of pointless stuff gets acted out with no real progress being made. A funeral for the n word? Why don't we examine what it is that makes people want to say that word or any variation of it and then go from there?
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited July 2008
Also figure in socioeconomic status. What address were these resumes sent in from?
You get some dude from Inglewood applying for a high-end corporate job, I think the fact he's from Inglewood would be a problem.
Nobody's saying that Blacks never perpetrate racism against Whites. Or that racism doesn't exist for every existing combination of races, from one to the other, depending on where you live within America. America is not completely homogeneous.
What people are saying is that racism is more pervasive against non-Whites than against Whites. Whites haven't, don't, and probably never will have to struggle the same way other races have, do, and will continue to at least least in the near future. There more to "racism" then "hey, cracka!" or getting jumped by a bunch of Black guys when you're White or Indian or Asian or Whateveran. Even while you're getting jumped by said race, you're still - in a general sense - better off if you're White.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
And no, you don't hear about it because it's common sense when a white guy gets beat up in an inner city, regardless of where they live. It's a national travesty if it happens to a black guy in the backwoods of Oklahoma.
It's common sense when anybody gets beat up in the inner city because, you know, shithole. Blacks are more likely to be victims of violent crime than whites - almost twice as likely, in fact - and that's because you've got, again, a bunch of jobless, uneducated people packed together like sardines and preying on each other. Your comparison doesn't hold water because "the backwoods of Oklahoma" isn't a crime-prone area to begin with.
Jacobkosh on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Nobody's saying that Blacks never perpetrate racism against Whites. Or that racism doesn't exist for every existing combination of races, from one to the other, depending on where you live within America. America is not completely homogeneous.
What people are saying is that racism is more pervasive against non-Whites than against Whites. Whites haven't, don't, and probably never will have to struggle the same way other races have, do, and will continue to at least least in the near future. There more to "racism" then "hey, cracka!" or getting jumped by a bunch of Black guys when you're White or Indian or Asian or Whateveran. Even while you're getting jumped by said race, you're still - in a general sense - better off if you're White.
I think the biggest problem with racism is the whole "I'M COLOR BLIND" thing right now. Pretend ignorance of ethnicity does not make someone an equal opportunist.
jungleroomx on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
And no, you don't hear about it because it's common sense when a white guy gets beat up in an inner city, regardless of where they live. It's a national travesty if it happens to a black guy in the backwoods of Oklahoma.
It's common sense when anybody gets beat up in the inner city because, you know, shithole. Blacks are more likely to be victims of violent crime than whites - almost twice as likely, in fact - and that's because you've got, again, a bunch of jobless, uneducated people packed together like sardines and preying on each other. Your comparison doesn't hold water because "the backwoods of Oklahoma" isn't a crime-prone area to begin with.
Apparently you've never been to Lawton.
And I think that people in large metropolitan areas are more prone to violent crime, there just happens to be a higher population of blacks in the inner cities. Unless, of course, there is study out there showing that suburban blacks are twice as prone to violent crime.
Nobody's saying that Blacks never perpetrate racism against Whites. Or that racism doesn't exist for every existing combination of races, from one to the other, depending on where you live within America. America is not completely homogeneous.
What people are saying is that racism is more pervasive against non-Whites than against Whites. Whites haven't, don't, and probably never will have to struggle the same way other races have, do, and will continue to at least least in the near future. There more to "racism" then "hey, cracka!" or getting jumped by a bunch of Black guys when you're White or Indian or Asian or Whateveran. Even while you're getting jumped by said race, you're still - in a general sense - better off if you're White.
I think the biggest problem with racism is the whole "I'M COLOR BLIND" thing right now. Pretend ignorance of ethnicity does not make someone an equal opportunist.
Actually, it does. or at least it can. When you act like people are equal, that's much better than going around being "honest" about how you feel down deep. I really don't care if everyone hates Black people or White people or Mimes as long as they don't actually let their asinine opinions inform their behaviors.
edit: You're not going to expunge racism by cutting it off at the root. You have to treat the symptom - racist behaviors - and eventually we'll migrate into a colorblind society. It'll be tragic indeed if people never truly shed their feelings of racial or ethnic superiority in favor of global racial and ethnic equality, but I think it's better that people act as if rather than if people are honest about their racism and DON'T act as if.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
The only one that COULD be considered is the job application one, but even then work history and employment reccomendation aren't specifically detailed.
The authors took the content of 500 real resumes off online job boards and then evaluated them, as objectively as possible, for quality, using such factors as education and experience
Jacobkosh on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Nobody's saying that Blacks never perpetrate racism against Whites. Or that racism doesn't exist for every existing combination of races, from one to the other, depending on where you live within America. America is not completely homogeneous.
What people are saying is that racism is more pervasive against non-Whites than against Whites. Whites haven't, don't, and probably never will have to struggle the same way other races have, do, and will continue to at least least in the near future. There more to "racism" then "hey, cracka!" or getting jumped by a bunch of Black guys when you're White or Indian or Asian or Whateveran. Even while you're getting jumped by said race, you're still - in a general sense - better off if you're White.
I think the biggest problem with racism is the whole "I'M COLOR BLIND" thing right now. Pretend ignorance of ethnicity does not make someone an equal opportunist.
Actually, it does. or at least it can. When you act like people are equal, that's much better than going around being "honest" about how you feel down deep. I really don't care if everyone hates Black people or White people or Mimes as long as they don't actually let their asinine opinions inform their behaviors.
Well, that's not quite what I meant, but I see your point.
Except for mimes.
jungleroomx on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
The only one that COULD be considered is the job application one, but even then work history and employment reccomendation aren't specifically detailed.
The authors took the content of 500 real resumes off online job boards and then evaluated them, as objectively as possible, for quality, using such factors as education and experience
What about addresses? I already said this. WHERE someone is from is a huge deterrent towards getting a job.
Surprising, I know. I guess those people would be reigonists.
jungleroomx on
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
And no, you don't hear about it because it's common sense when a white guy gets beat up in an inner city, regardless of where they live. It's a national travesty if it happens to a black guy in the backwoods of Oklahoma.
It's common sense when anybody gets beat up in the inner city because, you know, shithole. Blacks are more likely to be victims of violent crime than whites - almost twice as likely, in fact - and that's because you've got, again, a bunch of jobless, uneducated people packed together like sardines and preying on each other. Your comparison doesn't hold water because "the backwoods of Oklahoma" isn't a crime-prone area to begin with.
Apparently you've never been to Lawton.
And I think that people in large metropolitan areas are more prone to violent crime, there just happens to be a higher population of blacks in the inner cities. Unless, of course, there is study out there showing that suburban blacks are twice as prone to violent crime.
Wait, did you just agree with me and disagree with me in the same post? I said that inner cities are more prone to violent crimes, period. Which is why "olol a white guy can get killed in the city" is not comparable to a bunch of small-towners lynching a black guy. This is all, of course, utterly tangential to the issue of whether or not the fact that you were once mugged somehow proves that racism doesn't exist.
For instance, they traveled across the country one time, and they noticed that, on average, if his wife would book a room at a motel, she would get a more expensive rate. So they decided to experiment, and have her go in first and ask for a price, and then have him go in. Almost across the board his rate was lower, and if they told his wife there were no rooms available sometimes they would say differently for him.
What kind of places were they staying at? Do the sales terminals at Motal 8 have buttons on them for each race? I wonder...when I booked my room at the Sheraton for PAX, had a made clear that I was white, would I have gotten a better deal?
Rates are not always flat. I have a friend who works at some chain, I can't recall, and they give different rates depending on situations. If it's empty, they'll give a lower rate, and if it's close to capacity, they give a higher one. I'm not saying it's company policy, but because rates are not set in stone, whoever is behind the counter is going to be able to use his or her judgment to determine the rate.
And, if you were to do it in person, you wouldn't have to make it clear that you were white, obviously. But what some people suggest is to make it clear that, although you appear white, you do not wish to benefit from the privileges given to whites, so please, give me a higher rate. Mills suggests you tell whomever that you are, in fact, colored, because the terms "white" and "colored" go so far beyond actual skin tone nowadays. Which is why the proposed solutions to such racist actions are ridiculous.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
What about addresses? I already said this. WHERE someone is from is a huge deterrent towards getting a job.
Yes, it's not hard to imagine that people who come from largely black areas might be discriminated against. Do you even know what exactly you're arguing, at this point?
I've always seen racism less as a sort of inherited thing and more a general problem of douchebag-ness. Racists are douchebags. You know how you avoid racism, at least on the personal level? Don't hang out with douchebags.
When it comes to institutionalized racism, then I think we're looking more at class warfare than anything. Do poor white people really have it that much better than poor black people? In my experience living in the rust belt, no they really don't. When you're economically fucked no one gives a shit what your skin color is, least of all you. People face enormous barricades to getting out of poverty, and not all of it is social. This relates to my earlier point, in that a lot of people who hold a lot of power are enormous douchebags and don't want to see other people succeed.
This is all just making me realise how little racism there is in england....
I personaly think that I dont see colour, except for expecting indian people to talk about being indian quite alot... not that thats necesarily a bad thing
And no, you don't hear about it because it's common sense when a white guy gets beat up in an inner city, regardless of where they live. It's a national travesty if it happens to a black guy in the backwoods of Oklahoma.
It's common sense when anybody gets beat up in the inner city because, you know, shithole. Blacks are more likely to be victims of violent crime than whites - almost twice as likely, in fact - and that's because you've got, again, a bunch of jobless, uneducated people packed together like sardines and preying on each other. Your comparison doesn't hold water because "the backwoods of Oklahoma" isn't a crime-prone area to begin with.
Apparently you've never been to Lawton.
And I think that people in large metropolitan areas are more prone to violent crime, there just happens to be a higher population of blacks in the inner cities. Unless, of course, there is study out there showing that suburban blacks are twice as prone to violent crime.
Wait, did you just agree with me and disagree with me in the same post? I said that inner cities are more prone to violent crimes, period. Which is why "olol a white guy can get killed in the city" is not comparable to a bunch of small-towners lynching a black guy. This is all, of course, utterly tangential to the issue of whether or not the fact that you were once mugged somehow proves that racism doesn't exist.
I'm saying not all small towns are not crime free paradises out of the 1950's. Lawton is a town shy of 100K at most and has a crime rate per capita comparable to some of the nastiest inner cities, and actually EXCEEDING the national average in many areas.
So while a lot of places that have violent crimes are inner cities for the most part (we agree on this), let's also dissect these so-called backwater and crime-free places which happen to be some hotspots for racial crime.
Winnfield has had a steadily declining population since 1985. The chances that this is some nice little town are zero. Registered sex offender list conforms with populational statistics. It's mostly rural and manufacturing. Have you been to a town like this?
Pleasanton and Livermore, CA, are both smaller towns... but have a crime rate comparable to the rest of the country. And some serious hate crimes were committed there.
Like I said, I think most cases are dealing with socio-economics than racism, hate crimes tend to prosper in areas that are downtrodden and crappy (not JUST inner cities), and there are a lot of unanswered questions I have about these studies you refuse to even acknowledge.
I'm done with this. Enjoy.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
This is all just making me realise how little racism there is in england....
I personaly think that I dont see colour, except for expecting indian people to talk about being indian quite alot... not that thats necesarily a bad thing
England (and Europe in general) has its own racial problems, but its dynamics are decidedly different.
Fencingsax on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
What about addresses? I already said this. WHERE someone is from is a huge deterrent towards getting a job.
Yes, it's not hard to imagine that people who come from largely black areas might be discriminated against. Do you even know what exactly you're arguing, at this point?
So, if a white-sounding name came from Compton, it would be regarded higher than a black-sounding name from Chula Vista?
You can't even answer that. Nor will you try, since it goes against the study you claim as concrete. That's been my issue since the start, and you've avoided it entirely. They also don't show the resumes they used, so we don't know how "equal" they were. Data is good.
I do know what I'm arguing, I'm arguing that the lack of information provided by these studies confirms nothing, that inner-cities may be bad but they aren't the worst places on earth and a hate crime committed in a small town does not scream out "racism" based simply on the fact it was in a small town, and white priviledge is actually money priviledge or class privilege.
This is all just making me realise how little racism there is in england....
I personaly think that I dont see colour, except for expecting indian people to talk about being indian quite alot... not that thats necesarily a bad thing
England (and Europe in general) has its own racial problems, but its dynamics are decidedly different.
Quite true, here race seems to get rolled into arguments about "culture" and suppressed somewhat. The xenophobes here just rolled with it and inserted themselves into how-things-are-done which produces its own set of problems such as how you can't go near or try to fix something like struggling integration programs without stumbling over someone going on about how they knew this was gonna happen and how you can't trust "those people".
Nobody's saying that Blacks never perpetrate racism against Whites. Or that racism doesn't exist for every existing combination of races, from one to the other, depending on where you live within America. America is not completely homogeneous.
What people are saying is that racism is more pervasive against non-Whites than against Whites. Whites haven't, don't, and probably never will have to struggle the same way other races have, do, and will continue to at least least in the near future. There more to "racism" then "hey, cracka!" or getting jumped by a bunch of Black guys when you're White or Indian or Asian or Whateveran. Even while you're getting jumped by said race, you're still - in a general sense - better off if you're White.
I think this extends to when whites travel to much of the developed world (and a good chunk of the rest of it too)
That pretty much sums up my views on racism. And it's in song form! (Song's from Avenue Q; shitty animation is shitty)
Racism is unavoidable, just like stereotypes are, because every single human's view of a particular stereotype/race is coloured by past experiences with said stereotype/race.
My problem with the idea of 'white privilege' is that it is simply racism said another way. I don't think its a good idea to call not being the target of racism a privilege. It should be an expectation. Racism should be the extraordinary occurrence in our minds, not the other way around. The term also makes it easier for all white people to be blamed for racism, not just white racists.
That's because an essential component of racism is power - the power to systematically make other people's lives shittier.
Because we all, of course, know that the white middle class holds all so much power. If only racism could stop, then all the non-white slums and ghettos would flourish into thriving communities.
There are so many tiny, subtle ways in which racism still exists. These forms of it are so much more difficult to eradicate, too, as there are no real large, structural changes that can be made to fix them. What's more, the problem is almost perpetuated by attempting to teach young folks about other races' cultures, as some sort of contempt will almost certainly bred, as can be seen by the bitterness that some people hold toward Black history month.
I think we've all seen some of this. Stupid shit like, "oh why can't white people have a White Entertainment Television." You can only hope they grow out of this by the time they reach 15.
Don't forget the other form of racism, the fact that they don't get to use the n-word without offending people, while black people can.
Anyway, listening to people complain about these things is like listening to a fat person deny that he's fat, while insisting that he's healthy and that everyone else is anorexic (i.e., "reverse obesity"). Which isn't to say that reverse obesity doesn't exist or that it's not a problem, but more more to say that it's not the most pressing problem, and that it probably doesn't apply here in this case.
Calling "Racism!" pisses me off. Especially because it is always white on X. You never hear about X on white treatment being classified as racism. I think in some ways Racism is alive an well in the United States. I think their are anti whites, blacks, hispanics, etc. However it is always reported as white racism.
I mean really, I could go on and on and on and on here. White privilege is very real and that is why when white people cry foul on racism, people facing real, impactful racism get a bit touchy.
Well thats because they look at the demographics and demographically blacks are a higher risk (when it comes to credit and insurance). But hell, it doesn't just happen to minorities...it happens to everyone. Young people have to pay higher car insurance because young people are prone to have more accidents. And, demographically, black people are more prone to go to jail/commit crimes so cops keep an extra eye on them. Now is that a product of racism? Well I don't have any real proof to affirm or deny that, but could it also be a product of their culture? Once again, I don't have any real proof to affirm or deny that. Look at both perspectives.
Yeah, I kinda have a hard time believing that black people are more prone to commit crimes based... their skin tone or black people being naturally more aggressive or whatever dumb reason someone could think up. What do you know about black american culture?
Yes, your argument of authority is very convincing....
I didn't say they committed crimes because of their skin tone, or that they're naturally/genetically prone to aggression. Stop drawing shit I didn't say out of what I said.
I said that maybe their culture influences them to defy authority more or act more aggressive.
Blacks and whites are brought up differently, that will make their attitudes and values different.
And on a different note, since you want to flash Bureau of Justice Statistics here's a few.
And no, you don't hear about it because it's common sense when a white guy gets beat up in an inner city, regardless of where they live. It's a national travesty if it happens to a black guy in the backwoods of Oklahoma.
Link?
I assume you're calling it a national travesty because you have actual examples of cases comparable to your own which made the national news?
Posts
It's actually been demonstrated for those of us with the astonishing superpower to click on links. It's ironic that you complain about this in the same breath as talking about how awesome you are because you do your own work.
What kind of places were they staying at? Do the sales terminals at Motal 8 have buttons on them for each race? I wonder...when I booked my room at the Sheraton for PAX, had a made clear that I was white, would I have gotten a better deal?
Really? I said I was awesome? I said I had to WORK for my shit, and I do to this DAY. If that's "awesome" as opposed to, you know, "normal", then what the fuck.
And I've heard plenty about white people getting better this, better that. I think it's crap. I think it's mostly due to monetary and class status. You think I'll get a bigger/better loan than Tiger Woods (assuming he'd need a loan, that is)?
No.
What happens if the rich, successful black guy decks the poor unemployed white guy? I can tell you what happens in L.A.: the cops are called, he gets made to kneel at gunpoint and systematically humiliated on a public street.
Of course, that doesn't happen everywhere, because money is a decent insulator against a lot of things, including racism, and class bigotry is its own issue. But I bet that unemployed white guy doesn't need to dress up in his Sunday best to drive through certain parts of town without getting pulled over. That's a power the other guy either doesn't have or has to pay through the nose for.
THAT is what irritates you about racism? The other more oppressive stuff is just kinda ho-hum, huh?
That's great. The actual evidence helpfully provided in the links says otherwise. It's a shame that your idea of working hard apparently doesn't include basic reading.
So it's alright be the single white guy in Compton/Long Beach these days?
I know in D.C. I've been threatened, hit, and jumped more times than I can count (not really, but enough times) on the account I was a "cracka who lost his way", even though I lived in Southeast D.C. on South Capitol Street.
Not uncommon either.
Of course, you don't hear about that.
A spokesman for the mortgage banking industry challenged the conclusion, saying the report did not take into account all the legitimate questions about family wealth and debt, house appraisal and other factors that underwriters must consider when making a loan.
Once that niggling little detail has been taken care of, I will believe the reports. Credit score is ONE factor in determining mortgage rates.
Scientific experiments require a control and variables. This "proof" you speak of is all derived from data coming from variables, with no real control to verify that the findings are correct. I could have a credit score of, say, 685, and make $20,000 a year, with $5000 in debts from SOMETHING. Someone else could have a credit score of 685, and make $50,000 a year, and be relatively debt-free, and they WILL get better rates on everything than I will.
Also, in line with you not addressing the shortcomings of each study:
Both studies have their shortcomings; the California records give only broad indicators of economic achievement, and studying whose resumes elicit callbacks doesn't show who ultimately gets the jobs or what they do once employed.
ALSO:
Which companies? Where were the black applicants names addressed from? Did they try sticking white names in Compton or Inglewood to see if the reactions were the same?
Sorry. I do think racism exists, I've already stated that, but these studies still don't convince me.
That's why I don't take these studies to heart.
Do I deny racism exists? No. I just think the idea of racism being a "white only" club is ridiculous. Granted, all I can show you are anecdotes, but the supporting evidence that was given earlier is shaky at best.
I want to point something out about Black history month. I personally hold contempt for the idea of it because it breeds the idea that it's somehow only "their" history thereby only being relevant to blacks. The Civil Rights Movement isn't a major part of "Black history," it's a major part of American history and teaching it only in February makes it seem like some sort of farce, like Black is actually just a foreign country somewhere in the South.
Beyond that I think there are also much more important issues pertaining to American race relations that just seem to get glossed over. It's mostly just lists of inventors and "the first black person to _______" that get trumpeted around, rather than things that represent significant moments in American culture and politics pertaining to the black experience. Who talks about the experiences of the freed slaves during the Reconstruction and the introduction of sharecropping as the new means of slavery? Where are the actual discussions about white priviledge, what it means, and how to stop it? Where are the discussions about how not being prejudiced doesn't mean just not saying the N word, it's a point at which you see people for who they are? And even then, these discussions are bigger than "black history," they're about how to teach people, especially our children, how to be intelligent and rational human beings.
Yeah, the people who say "It's just not fair, I want a white history month" are being fucking retarded. And yeah, it's easy to see how the idea of Black History Month came out of the frustrations of people who couldn't get the historical events pertaining to the black experience in America enough exposure, so they just said "Fuck it, let's just make a month where we add it on top of everything." Still, it's perpetuating the idea in our culture that there should be some kind of power struggle among the races, and the only way to get equality is to take it from someone else.
Not saying it's insignificant.
I'm saying people are trying to prove it's existence through the wrong means and, without concrete proof, claim they have concrete proof.
They also tend to believe that there seems to be some sort of nation-wide system of discrimination (reaching down to the hotel level, my god) set up like something out of fucking a Metal Gear Solid storyline. Some evil Arsenal Gear of racism controlling everything from the shadows, denying people of non-white origins good loan rates, hotel rooms, and jobs.
When the more concise explanation is some people are dicks, and the shit is more isolated than it is widespread, as far as the examples go.
And then they followed you home and denied you a loan, right? If the worst thing you can say is that a bunch of jobless, uneducated, dirt-poor people treated you like shit when you wandered into their neighborhood - well, that's just not particularly shocking. You might get much the same reaction driving an Infiniti through certain small towns. People being petty and tribalistic is a sad fact of life; what you and people like you have utterly failed to understand is that the anti-racism movement is trying to get rid of the official endorsement of it: of people being denied loans and educations, of not receiving job interviews, or of being the victim of overweening authority because they belong to group X.
Because of the powerful black conspiracy against you, right?
EDIT: and oh hey, you're still arguing without having read the links helpfully supplied. What a fucking shocker. When you use phrases like "everyone knows" or "I don't have any proof, but..." then it's time to look in the mirror and consider that the dude there just may be full of shit.
Wandered into "their" neighborhood? I LIVED A BLOCK AWAY. I WANDERED INTO MY FUCKING NEIGHBORHOOD.
And no, you don't hear about it because it's common sense when a white guy gets beat up in an inner city, regardless of where they live. It's a national travesty if it happens to a black guy in the backwoods of Oklahoma.
I'm waiting for you to address the discrepancies of their reports and their basis in reality, because most of them jump to conclusions without supportable evidence.
The only one that COULD be considered is the job application one, but even then work history and employment reccomendation aren't specifically detailed.
A lot of pointless stuff gets acted out with no real progress being made. A funeral for the n word? Why don't we examine what it is that makes people want to say that word or any variation of it and then go from there?
You get some dude from Inglewood applying for a high-end corporate job, I think the fact he's from Inglewood would be a problem.
No mention of that.
What people are saying is that racism is more pervasive against non-Whites than against Whites. Whites haven't, don't, and probably never will have to struggle the same way other races have, do, and will continue to at least least in the near future. There more to "racism" then "hey, cracka!" or getting jumped by a bunch of Black guys when you're White or Indian or Asian or Whateveran. Even while you're getting jumped by said race, you're still - in a general sense - better off if you're White.
It's common sense when anybody gets beat up in the inner city because, you know, shithole. Blacks are more likely to be victims of violent crime than whites - almost twice as likely, in fact - and that's because you've got, again, a bunch of jobless, uneducated people packed together like sardines and preying on each other. Your comparison doesn't hold water because "the backwoods of Oklahoma" isn't a crime-prone area to begin with.
I think the biggest problem with racism is the whole "I'M COLOR BLIND" thing right now. Pretend ignorance of ethnicity does not make someone an equal opportunist.
Apparently you've never been to Lawton.
And I think that people in large metropolitan areas are more prone to violent crime, there just happens to be a higher population of blacks in the inner cities. Unless, of course, there is study out there showing that suburban blacks are twice as prone to violent crime.
Actually, it does. or at least it can. When you act like people are equal, that's much better than going around being "honest" about how you feel down deep. I really don't care if everyone hates Black people or White people or Mimes as long as they don't actually let their asinine opinions inform their behaviors.
edit: You're not going to expunge racism by cutting it off at the root. You have to treat the symptom - racist behaviors - and eventually we'll migrate into a colorblind society. It'll be tragic indeed if people never truly shed their feelings of racial or ethnic superiority in favor of global racial and ethnic equality, but I think it's better that people act as if rather than if people are honest about their racism and DON'T act as if.
:facepalm:
Well, that's not quite what I meant, but I see your point.
Except for mimes.
What about addresses? I already said this. WHERE someone is from is a huge deterrent towards getting a job.
Surprising, I know. I guess those people would be reigonists.
Wait, did you just agree with me and disagree with me in the same post? I said that inner cities are more prone to violent crimes, period. Which is why "olol a white guy can get killed in the city" is not comparable to a bunch of small-towners lynching a black guy. This is all, of course, utterly tangential to the issue of whether or not the fact that you were once mugged somehow proves that racism doesn't exist.
Rates are not always flat. I have a friend who works at some chain, I can't recall, and they give different rates depending on situations. If it's empty, they'll give a lower rate, and if it's close to capacity, they give a higher one. I'm not saying it's company policy, but because rates are not set in stone, whoever is behind the counter is going to be able to use his or her judgment to determine the rate.
And, if you were to do it in person, you wouldn't have to make it clear that you were white, obviously. But what some people suggest is to make it clear that, although you appear white, you do not wish to benefit from the privileges given to whites, so please, give me a higher rate. Mills suggests you tell whomever that you are, in fact, colored, because the terms "white" and "colored" go so far beyond actual skin tone nowadays. Which is why the proposed solutions to such racist actions are ridiculous.
Yes, it's not hard to imagine that people who come from largely black areas might be discriminated against. Do you even know what exactly you're arguing, at this point?
When it comes to institutionalized racism, then I think we're looking more at class warfare than anything. Do poor white people really have it that much better than poor black people? In my experience living in the rust belt, no they really don't. When you're economically fucked no one gives a shit what your skin color is, least of all you. People face enormous barricades to getting out of poverty, and not all of it is social. This relates to my earlier point, in that a lot of people who hold a lot of power are enormous douchebags and don't want to see other people succeed.
I personaly think that I dont see colour, except for expecting indian people to talk about being indian quite alot... not that thats necesarily a bad thing
I'm saying not all small towns are not crime free paradises out of the 1950's. Lawton is a town shy of 100K at most and has a crime rate per capita comparable to some of the nastiest inner cities, and actually EXCEEDING the national average in many areas.
So while a lot of places that have violent crimes are inner cities for the most part (we agree on this), let's also dissect these so-called backwater and crime-free places which happen to be some hotspots for racial crime.
Winnfield has had a steadily declining population since 1985. The chances that this is some nice little town are zero. Registered sex offender list conforms with populational statistics. It's mostly rural and manufacturing. Have you been to a town like this?
Pleasanton and Livermore, CA, are both smaller towns... but have a crime rate comparable to the rest of the country. And some serious hate crimes were committed there.
Like I said, I think most cases are dealing with socio-economics than racism, hate crimes tend to prosper in areas that are downtrodden and crappy (not JUST inner cities), and there are a lot of unanswered questions I have about these studies you refuse to even acknowledge.
I'm done with this. Enjoy.
So, if a white-sounding name came from Compton, it would be regarded higher than a black-sounding name from Chula Vista?
You can't even answer that. Nor will you try, since it goes against the study you claim as concrete. That's been my issue since the start, and you've avoided it entirely. They also don't show the resumes they used, so we don't know how "equal" they were. Data is good.
I do know what I'm arguing, I'm arguing that the lack of information provided by these studies confirms nothing, that inner-cities may be bad but they aren't the worst places on earth and a hate crime committed in a small town does not scream out "racism" based simply on the fact it was in a small town, and white priviledge is actually money priviledge or class privilege.
Quite true, here race seems to get rolled into arguments about "culture" and suppressed somewhat. The xenophobes here just rolled with it and inserted themselves into how-things-are-done which produces its own set of problems such as how you can't go near or try to fix something like struggling integration programs without stumbling over someone going on about how they knew this was gonna happen and how you can't trust "those people".
I think this extends to when whites travel to much of the developed world (and a good chunk of the rest of it too)
That pretty much sums up my views on racism. And it's in song form! (Song's from Avenue Q; shitty animation is shitty)
Racism is unavoidable, just like stereotypes are, because every single human's view of a particular stereotype/race is coloured by past experiences with said stereotype/race.
Because we all, of course, know that the white middle class holds all so much power. If only racism could stop, then all the non-white slums and ghettos would flourish into thriving communities.
No, actually other whites do. Because, surprisingly, not all white people are of the same ethnicity.
Don't forget the other form of racism, the fact that they don't get to use the n-word without offending people, while black people can.
Anyway, listening to people complain about these things is like listening to a fat person deny that he's fat, while insisting that he's healthy and that everyone else is anorexic (i.e., "reverse obesity"). Which isn't to say that reverse obesity doesn't exist or that it's not a problem, but more more to say that it's not the most pressing problem, and that it probably doesn't apply here in this case.
Yes, your argument of authority is very convincing....
I didn't say they committed crimes because of their skin tone, or that they're naturally/genetically prone to aggression. Stop drawing shit I didn't say out of what I said.
I said that maybe their culture influences them to defy authority more or act more aggressive.
Blacks and whites are brought up differently, that will make their attitudes and values different.
And on a different note, since you want to flash Bureau of Justice Statistics here's a few.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/ovracetab.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/oracetab.htm
Blacks are more prone to commit homicides. Blacks are more prone to commit homicide on a white than visa versa.
Maybe its because of their skin tone, or that they're naturally aggressive..../sarcasm.
Link?
I assume you're calling it a national travesty because you have actual examples of cases comparable to your own which made the national news?