You guys are using inside job with the wrong connotation. From what it looks like, a disturbed scientist at USAMRIID (lol I live 20 miles from there, and have the opportunity to intern with them), took anthrax and mailed it. This was a rogue act. It's not like the Grand Zionist Bush Compendium ordered him to mail Bacillus anthracis to notable people in the media and government.
Oh sure, he's so disturbed he was still working in the government at the time of his death. I mean if he was so disturbed you'd think they'd notice that the first 20 years or so. But nope as soon as he might be implicated in a very serious plot he is killed.
Are you being serious right now? Hanlon's Razor people. Do you know how often USAMRIID fucks up? Pretty often. They still haven't unearthed the concrete encased building like two miles from the new facility. You know why? It's full of Anthrax they let get through the vents.
Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
0
KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
Are you being serious right now? Hanlon's Razor people. Do you know how often USAMRIID fucks up? Pretty often. They still haven't unearthed the concrete encased building like two miles from the new facility. You know why? It's full of Anthrax they let get through the vents.
I thought Art Bell would make it obvious I was not.
Then again, there are so many conspiracy theories out there one of them has to be right sometime.
Either way the incompetence you mention does not make me feel any better considering the shit we're talking about.
"Hey guys look I just made airborne ebola!" :trip:
Plus there's no real motive, a number of the people that worked closest to him claim he was innocent, and there's that report that he allegedly found traces of anthrax in another, non-cleared employee's desk and keyboard (although he cleaned it up).
And, you know, that he developed a vaccine and whatnot.
Or that the main character witness against him, a counselor, didn't talk to him until after the claims against him surface, and she only holds an associates degree in substance abuse counseling.
Now, those facts don't mean it wasn't him, but they also make it harder to say it was him as well. Without any real sort of context of this man's life, it's hard to flat out say he did it the way most of the media is.
Links to my sources (as found yesterday on digg) with links to his sources:
You guys are using inside job with the wrong connotation. From what it looks like, a disturbed scientist at USAMRIID (lol I live 20 miles from there, and have the opportunity to intern with them), took anthrax and mailed it. This was a rogue act. It's not like the Grand Zionist Bush Compendium ordered him to mail Bacillus anthracis to notable people in the media and government.
I'm not an expert but it doesn't seem likely that some lone scientist, regardless of access, could just mail out one of the most advanced bioweapons on the face of the planet. Something tells me that there is an unbelievable level of control, double blind security measures and failsafes in the security surrounding something like this strain of anthrax. If I'm wrong and someone has specific information about how you can check out bioweapons like renting DVD's or steal them from under the counter like a snickers bar, please let me know. I love being informed. Maybe there is an ABC news piece.
Also, Godwin's Law should be amended to include Bush/Zionism. It seems to have the same inflammatory effect on debate.
You guys are using inside job with the wrong connotation. From what it looks like, a disturbed scientist at USAMRIID (lol I live 20 miles from there, and have the opportunity to intern with them), took anthrax and mailed it. This was a rogue act. It's not like the Grand Zionist Bush Compendium ordered him to mail Bacillus anthracis to notable people in the media and government.
Do you have any proof that this institute is so fucked up any scientist can walk out with a bucket full of Anthrax without anyone noticing? I mean, that's quite a claim you make there.
You guys are using inside job with the wrong connotation. From what it looks like, a disturbed scientist at USAMRIID (lol I live 20 miles from there, and have the opportunity to intern with them), took anthrax and mailed it. This was a rogue act. It's not like the Grand Zionist Bush Compendium ordered him to mail Bacillus anthracis to notable people in the media and government.
Do you have any proof that this institute is so fucked up any scientist can walk out with a bucket full of Anthrax without anyone noticing? I mean, that's quite a claim you make there.
But claiming that an entire administration of planning terrorist attacks against American citizens is not an outrageous claim, but a claim of bureaucratic incompetence is? Do you have any idea how many people would know about something like this if it was actually planned and executed? It only takes one person that is not whole heartedly into a plot to kill American citizens to completely destroy the entire administration. Just one staffer leaking this to the media, just one. Too risky.
SolidGobi on
0
KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
edited August 2008
I didn't even think it was possible.
Kagera on
My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
0
KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
You guys are using inside job with the wrong connotation. From what it looks like, a disturbed scientist at USAMRIID (lol I live 20 miles from there, and have the opportunity to intern with them), took anthrax and mailed it. This was a rogue act. It's not like the Grand Zionist Bush Compendium ordered him to mail Bacillus anthracis to notable people in the media and government.
Do you have any proof that this institute is so fucked up any scientist can walk out with a bucket full of Anthrax without anyone noticing? I mean, that's quite a claim you make there.
But claiming that an entire administration of planning terrorist attacks against American citizens is not an outrageous claim, but a claim of bureaucratic incompetence is? Do you have any idea how many people would know about something like this if it was actually planned and executed? It only takes one person that is not whole heartedly into a plot to kill American citizens to completely destroy the entire administration. Just one staffer leaking this to the media, just one. Too risky.
That's why you dispose of all participants after they are done with their part.
I mean, JEEZ even I know that.
But seriously, how many people would really need to know about this to get it done? I'm not making a claim but actually asking because I don't know
It was Tylenol 3, which is pretty much Codeine (With Tylenol!).
There are so many things that irk me about this case. The FBI thinks his motive was to test his vaccine on humans, but no one he sent the letters to had access to said vaccine, and I don't even think his final stages in the vaccine development came until later on.
His estranged brother who he hadn't talked to since 1985 says he was an egotistical dick, but everyone who worked with him that has talked to the media has said he was always calm, collected, polite, and professional, and that he didn't show signs of stress until the FBI openly stated they were considering him the new suspect.
The "medical" and "court" documents that are supposed to characterize him as some sort of demonic psychopath are only a week or so old, and stem from an event just a couple weeks ago when he attended a single group therapy session with a counselor who only had an associates in substance abuse consoling. The "court documents" come from a restraining order she filed just a day or two before his suicide, which are based on her lone account that he was a sociopath.
So, basically, the big character test this whole things is ridding on is a shoddy account of a single day in the last weeks of this man's life, when he was already well-aware how deep in the shit he was, and was battling anxiety, depression, and exhaustion.
This whole case is way fucked up and contradictory.
But claiming that an entire administration of planning terrorist attacks against American citizens is not an outrageous claim, but a claim of bureaucratic incompetence is? Do you have any idea how many people would know about something like this if it was actually planned and executed? It only takes one person that is not whole heartedly into a plot to kill American citizens to completely destroy the entire administration. Just one staffer leaking this to the media, just one. Too risky.
At least the article in the OP made an effort in providing some sort of sources. "Because it sounds far-fetched" is not considered sound reasoning where I come from, no matter how correct that assessment might be.
Well I'm no expert about government bureaucracy, so my breakdown will be relatively simple. First you have the group of people in the White House, since many people here seems to think this is all a plan that Cheney thought up. Now take those people and then add some staffers of said people as well. Next assuming that everyone agrees to this, and did not have this planned anywhere near the White House. (White House is wired) They would have to get the anthrax from somewhere right? And since I'm assuming that Bush does not have an anthrax lab in camp David, they would have to then have to get a lab like the one the suspect worked in to "misplace" the anthrax needed. This would include more people.
Now that they have anthrax the administration has said chemical weapons they would have to now tell the CIA director to do the deed. Now this puts another bureaucratic body into the mix. So the CIA would then send operatives to spread the anthrax and plant evidence that Islamist extremist were behind it. So theoretically under this theory the suspect would have been the inside man that "misplaced" the anthrax and was taken out before he could testify. Either way the anthrax had to be misplaced because of bureaucratic incompetence.
The main problem I see here is that this plan would involve two different bureaucratic bodies, the White House and the CIA. Homeland Security and the CIA are rival bodies, and I would not see them working great together. Also the White House is NEVER a unified body, operation Northwoods proves this. Also planning something like this would be harder now then say the 40s, 50s and 60s because of technology. The internet, cell phone cameras, and hidden audio just make something like this way too risky. Watergate also comes to mind when a conspiracy like this is thought up of. The CIA has no problems throwing a president under the bus, I think Deep throat ended up being the CIA director if I’m not mistaken. (I could be, please call me a dumbass if I am. Oh God it was the FBI director wasn’t it!)
I just think that this is in a similar vain as the 9/11 truthers, I have a friend that thinks it is not a ridicules idea to think that the President ordered the CIA to completely wire two huge skyscrapers with C4 and just have it lie around for months waiting for the planes to hit them and have it not be discovered by cleaning crews. But that’s way off topic.
But claiming that an entire administration of planning terrorist attacks against American citizens is not an outrageous claim, but a claim of bureaucratic incompetence is? Do you have any idea how many people would know about something like this if it was actually planned and executed? It only takes one person that is not whole heartedly into a plot to kill American citizens to completely destroy the entire administration. Just one staffer leaking this to the media, just one. Too risky.
At least the article in the OP made an effort in providing some sort of sources. "Because it sounds far-fetched" is not considered sound reasoning where I come from, no matter how correct that assessment might be.
Fair enough, here are some sources, I'll play along with your I need good facts theory for now!
Also keep in mind that many serial killers seemed mild mannered to most people, thats why they were able to kill multible times without getting caught.
Well I'm no expert about government bureaucracy, so my breakdown will be relatively simple. First you have the group of people in the White House, since many people here seems to think this is all a plan that Cheney thought up. Now take those people and then add some staffers of said people as well. Next assuming that everyone agrees to this, and did not have this planned anywhere near the White House. (White House is wired) They would have to get the anthrax from somewhere right? And since I'm assuming that Bush does not have an anthrax lab in camp David, they would have to then have to get a lab like the one the suspect worked in to "misplace" the anthrax needed. This would include more people.
Now that they have anthrax the administration has said chemical weapons they would have to now tell the CIA director to do the deed. Now this puts another bureaucratic body into the mix. So the CIA would then send operatives to spread the anthrax and plant evidence that Islamist extremist were behind it. So theoretically under this theory the suspect would have been the inside man that "misplaced" the anthrax and was taken out before he could testify. Either way the anthrax had to be misplaced because of bureaucratic incompetence.
The main problem I see here is that this plan would involve two different bureaucratic bodies, the White House and the CIA. Homeland Security and the CIA are rival bodies, and I would not see them working great together. Also the White House is NEVER a unified body, operation Northwoods proves this. Also planning something like this would be harder now then say the 40s, 50s and 60s because of technology. The internet, cell phone cameras, and hidden audio just make something like this way too risky. Watergate also comes to mind when a conspiracy like this is thought up of. The CIA has no problems throwing a president under the bus, I think Deep throat ended up being the CIA director if I’m not mistaken. (I could be, please call me a dumbass if I am. Oh God it was the FBI director wasn’t it!)
I just think that this is in a similar vain as the 9/11 truthers, I have a friend that thinks it is not a ridicules idea to think that the President ordered the CIA to completely wire two huge skyscrapers with C4 and just have it lie around for months waiting for the planes to hit them and have it not be discovered by cleaning crews. But that’s way off topic.
Of course Homeland Security didn't exist when the Anthrax mailings took place. Also, Mark Felt (aka Deep Throat) was Deputy Director of the FBI.
Anyway simple reason to suspect the government is not orchestrating massive conspiracies to kill American civilians and is instead a cynical entity that used said murders to help their case for war: this government is totally incompetent at everything they do.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
You guys are using inside job with the wrong connotation. From what it looks like, a disturbed scientist at USAMRIID (lol I live 20 miles from there, and have the opportunity to intern with them), took anthrax and mailed it. This was a rogue act. It's not like the Grand Zionist Bush Compendium ordered him to mail Bacillus anthracis to notable people in the media and government.
Do you have any proof that this institute is so fucked up any scientist can walk out with a bucket full of Anthrax without anyone noticing? I mean, that's quite a claim you make there.
But claiming that an entire administration of planning terrorist attacks against American citizens is not an outrageous claim, but a claim of bureaucratic incompetence is? Do you have any idea how many people would know about something like this if it was actually planned and executed? It only takes one person that is not whole heartedly into a plot to kill American citizens to completely destroy the entire administration. Just one staffer leaking this to the media, just one. Too risky.
That's why you dispose of all participants after they are done with their part.
I mean, JEEZ even I know that.
But seriously, how many people would really need to know about this to get it done? I'm not making a claim but actually asking because I don't know
Of course Homeland Security didn't exist when the Anthrax mailings took place. Also, Mark Felt (aka Deep Throat) was Deputy Director of the FBI.
Anyway simple reason to suspect the government is not orchestrating massive conspiracies to kill American civilians and is instead a cynical entity that used said murders to help their case for war: this government is totally incompetent at everything they do.
Really? Really? Then can you possibly explain why we're neck-deep in Iraq right now, why the War on Terror's still continuing and why private companies, Dick Cheney's among them, are making enormous profits off a conflict that was started in part because of these anthrax letters that all levels of government and the media were claiming came from Iraq before they were analyzed by the man who fucking sent them out in the first place?
You can claim that this is merely an astonishing series of coincidences rather than an out-an-out conspiracy, but don't shrug it off with such a brainless excuse. This administration drained America dry, it set back foreign relations with the Middle East by at least another decade, and it's going to get away with everything it did. That is NOT. FUCKING. INCOMPETENCE.
edit: And as of what Remote Viewer said, yes, two of the letter-receivers were meant to be the chief Democratic opponents of the motherfucking Patriot Act. My goodness, this rogue scientist certainly did have his fingers deep in the political goings-on of the day.
and it's going to get away with everything it did.
You can predict the future?
You can offer a method for accountability?
I'd like just as well to see at least the chief perpetrators swing for what they've done, but they won't. There's too many ways out, and not enough people notice or care to get riled up about it.
Of course Homeland Security didn't exist when the Anthrax mailings took place. Also, Mark Felt (aka Deep Throat) was Deputy Director of the FBI.
Anyway simple reason to suspect the government is not orchestrating massive conspiracies to kill American civilians and is instead a cynical entity that used said murders to help their case for war: this government is totally incompetent at everything they do.
Really? Really? Then can you possibly explain why we're neck-deep in Iraq right now, why the War on Terror's still continuing and why private companies, Dick Cheney's among them, are making enormous profits off a conflict that was started in part because of these anthrax letters that all levels of government and the media were claiming came from Iraq before they were analyzed by the man who fucking sent them out in the first place?
Was it likely he was going to tell the truth about who sent the letters?
Of course Homeland Security didn't exist when the Anthrax mailings took place. Also, Mark Felt (aka Deep Throat) was Deputy Director of the FBI.
Anyway simple reason to suspect the government is not orchestrating massive conspiracies to kill American civilians and is instead a cynical entity that used said murders to help their case for war: this government is totally incompetent at everything they do.
Really? Really? Then can you possibly explain why we're neck-deep in Iraq right now, why the War on Terror's still continuing and why private companies, Dick Cheney's among them, are making enormous profits off a conflict that was started in part because of these anthrax letters that all levels of government and the media were claiming came from Iraq before they were analyzed by the man who fucking sent them out in the first place?
You can claim that this is merely an astonishing series of coincidences rather than an out-an-out conspiracy, but don't shrug it off with such a brainless excuse. This administration drained America dry, it set back foreign relations with the Middle East by at least another decade, and it's going to get away with everything it did. That is NOT. FUCKING. INCOMPETENCE.
edit: And as of what Remote Viewer said, yes, two of the letter-receivers were meant to be the chief Democratic opponents of the motherfucking Patriot Act. My goodness, this rogue scientist certainly did have his fingers deep in the political goings-on of the day.
Um, he was a right wing hardcore Christian ideologue, if this is the guy. Targeting Democrats is not exactly surprising if you're a certain brand of disturbed Rush Limbaugh/Sean Hannity listener (see the church shooting in Tennessee last week, for example). If you'll remember, anyone who opposed the PATRIOT Act was demonized by the right 24-7 for months. So his aim (again, assuming it was him, it'd be nice of the FBI to make the evidence public) isn't exactly surprising.
As for why we're in Iraq and the "war on terror" continues it's pretty simple. The current administration's main foreign policy gurus are rabid ideologues of a theory that promotes a Pax Americana in the form of a new imperialism. Obviously the main place you want to control as an imperialist is the Middle East because it has lots of oil, the one resource America does not have enough of in its borders. So they cynically used 9/11 and the Anthrax attacks, along with a complicit media, to scare the fuck out of people.
So why are they going to get away with everything? It's not because they're competent, goodness knows. It's because the Democrats are cowards (and the high ranking Democrats (Pelosi/Hoyer/Reid in particular) approved of many of the embarrassing/criminal portions) and the media is ashamed because they've assisted this administration at every step. The problem is consolidation of power in the executive branch and consolidation of media companies more than anything.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I guess generally, there are plenty of ways in which this administration broke the law that are provable, most of them dealing with torture, that I don't need to invent outlandish they're murdering civilians/trying to murder their political opponents theories in order for something to come up where I think they could be punished.
That, and massive criminal conspiracies are notoriously difficult to keep quiet. It's 9/11 Truthery in small form.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
0
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
I guess generally, there are plenty of ways in which this administration broke the law that are provable, most of them dealing with torture, that I don't need to invent outlandish they're murdering civilians/trying to murder their political opponents theories in order for something to come up where I think they could be punished.
That, and massive criminal conspiracies are notoriously difficult to keep quiet. It's 9/11 Truthery in small form.
So how did Germany convert a baby carriage factory into a machine gun factory in the thirties without anyone knowing? Or get away with burning down the Reichstag for that matter? Compartmentalization. Everyone involved had a little tiny part to play, and that part was kept confidential between compartments. These are small innocuous parts, no big deal. Instead of machining this bit, now I machine that bit and send it down the line. The only people who knew what was really going on were the people running the factory and the few trusted people at the end of the assembly line.
Why is it that whenever these discussions come up, it's always an all or nothing scenario? It's always the entire machinery of government was behind it or it's just sheer incompetence. History usually demonstrates that simplistic, generalized solutions miss the mark. Why isn't the possibility of entrenched rogue factions working within the apparatus of our government ever really discussed? There is plenty of corruption and criminality to be leveraged by rogue elements within our government and industry. Roman history demonstrates how this kind of problem works readily.
HERSH: There was a dozen ideas proffered about how to trigger a war. The one that interested me the most was why don’t we build — we in our shipyard — build four or five boats that look like Iranian PT boats. Put Navy seals on them with a lot of arms. And next time one of our boats goes to the Straits of Hormuz, start a shoot-up.
Yes, Hersh as in Seymor Hersh.
In this kind of environment, many things are possible. There is video of this interview at the link, check it out.
And word got to Seymour Hersh (Seymour fucking Hersh!) even though presumably that was compartmentalized to "people talking in Dick Cheney's office."
Let's look at things we know absolutely for a fact (roughly chronologically):
1) The Bush Administration wanted to attack Iraq from the inauguration onward.
2) 9/11 happened
3) A week later, the first Anthrax mailing took place.
4) All the mailings were aimed at media institutions (first attack)
5) Second attack happens, targeting democratic US Senators Daschle and Leahy.
6) Not long after, the administration starts hinting through surrogates (such as Sen. McCain) that Iraq may have been behind it.
7) They leak messages to the media "confirming" that. ABC News in particular Brian Ross leads the charge.
8) The FBI is not entirely retarded and realizes it was probably the work of a government scientist, they focus on Steven Hatfield, proving they are kind of retarded.
9) The FBI proceeds to leak the hell out of that investigation, further proving they're retarded. Hatfield, it turns out, is exonerated.
10) Iraq is attacked.
11) ABC airs The Path to 9/11, a made up bunch of bullshit excoriating the Clinton administration and largely blaming them for 9/11 (I think this is an important point in our examination, I'll explain in a minute)
12) The occupation of Iraq is entirely bungled, just like every other thing this administration has ever done, with the possible exception of smearing John Kerry.
13) Democrats come into power in November of 2006.
14) Democrats fail at investigating the Bush Administration. They particularly fail at investigating torture, because the democratic leadership approved the techniques.
15) The FBI's main suspect commits suicide just before he is indicted on five counts of murder and faces the death penalty.
Caveat: the FBI bungled this investigation once before, so this guy could be innocent. I would like to see Congress investigate this angle of it and get a full accounting of the evidence against this man.
My Speculation (not unreasonable, I think):
However, based on his letters to the editor of his local newspaper it would appear he was a fundamentalist Christian who supported the Bush Administration. This gives him means, motive, and opportunity in theory. Note the targets, media institutions (zomg liberal!) and Democratic Senators. If the Administration was involved in some grand conspiracy, it seems to me they would likely have at least faked an attack on themselves/the Pentagon/something. If we believe the Hersh story, they were willing to kill SEALs to get a war with Iran, and somehow I don't think they've become less moral over the years.
Meanwhile, the administration obviously sensed an opportunity. Americans were afraid, it had been established early on that Al Qaeda was behind the attacks on 9/11 and images of scary brown people were floating everywhere. With the Anthrax attacks, the appearance of a coordinated assault on America got people really scared. The only nation in the region it could plausibly be pinned on (because this was obviously the work of a nation-state) was Iraq because Americans already had the image of him as a boogeyman and he gassed the Kurds so possession of such substances wouldn't seem totally ridiculous. Ignore the motive for Iraq actively pissing off the US, because that part makes no sense, but didn't have to in the current media climate.
It was also clear to everyone who worked for the government based on things I've read that they wanted evidence to go to war with Iraq. So when the guy theoretically responsible was asked where it came from, of course he would make sure to come up with the predetermined conclusion the government wanted. Everyone else in the intelligence business did. So Iraq is blamed. And that particular piece of information is leaked to the press. Especially ABC and ABC News, which has been as pro-administration/generally Republican as anyone outside of Fox (see: The Path to 9/11, the Democratic "debate" between Clinton and Obama that was more Smearfest '08 than debate), and they're far more dangerous as they can be subtle. Brian Ross runs with the story. People are scared, the sought result is achieved and we're in Iraq.
None of this requires government foreknowledge of the attacks or planning of the attacks. What I will grant you is that there may have been some obstruction of justice in attempts to steer the FBI away from the most reasonable suspects (people who worked at Fort Detrick or possibly CDC) until the march to war had become inevitable.
I think fear (on the part of the public), greed (the administration), stupidity (FBI), and laziness (media) are more rational explanations than grand conspiracies, or even less grand compartmentalized conspiracies. And as I said, that Iran thing if it's true leaked to Sy Hersh, who's among the most liberal reporters in the country. Somehow I think a far more complicated plot with more members would also get out to someone who wanted to report it.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Really? Really? Then can you possibly explain why we're neck-deep in Iraq right now, why the War on Terror's still continuing and why private companies, Dick Cheney's among them, are making enormous profits off a conflict that was started in part because of these anthrax letters that all levels of government and the media were claiming came from Iraq before they were analyzed by the man who fucking sent them out in the first place?
You can claim that this is merely an astonishing series of coincidences rather than an out-an-out conspiracy, but don't shrug it off with such a brainless excuse. This administration drained America dry, it set back foreign relations with the Middle East by at least another decade, and it's going to get away with everything it did. That is NOT. FUCKING. INCOMPETENCE.
They also got creamed in the elections two years ago, and it's about to happen again. The Bush administration hasn't gotten as much flak as they deserve, sure, but they've fucked up a lot and people have noticed.
While they've been able to strong-arm their way into getting what they want, this administration has been absolutely terrible at covering its ass after the fact. This is pretty much inarguable.
Psycho Internet Hawk on
0
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
And word got to Seymour Hersh (Seymour fucking Hersh!) even though presumably that was compartmentalized to "people talking in Dick Cheney's office."
Let's look at things we know absolutely for a fact (roughly chronologically):
<snip excellent post>
That's entirely plausible. The only variation in my own speculations is that instead of waiting for and seizing random opportunity, there could be small groups with the motivation and means to make these opportunities happen. All I would really like to see is an honest, transparent investigation into these sorts of things. All of the secrecy our government has created through the course of the Cold War has created an environment where this kind of transparency is not allowed in any kind of investigation. Too much happens behind closed doors in the name of National Security to deliver any kind of conclusive answer to the public in regard to these lines of questioning.
It's obvious that all kinds of things are deteriorating in the United States. It concerns me that we are not allowed to find out why. The possibility of crossing a point of no return is one that shouldn't be ignored. When secrecy becomes the refuge of criminals, whether by opportunity or design, it should be a concern for us all.
That's entirely plausible. The only variation in my own speculations is that instead of waiting for and seizing random opportunity, there could be small groups with the motivation and means to make these opportunities happen. All I would really like to see is an honest, transparent investigation into these sorts of things. All of the secrecy our government has created through the course of the Cold War has created an environment where this kind of transparency is not allowed in any kind of investigation. Too much happens behind closed doors in the name of National Security to deliver any kind of conclusive answer to the public in regard to these lines of questioning.
It's obvious that all kinds of things are deteriorating in the United States. It concerns me that we are not allowed to find out why. The possibility of crossing a point of no return is one that shouldn't be ignored. When secrecy becomes the refuge of criminals, whether by opportunity or design, it should be a concern for us all.
I'm cool with that too, Congress should definitely look into it if for no other reason than how the hell did an unstable guy get access to our biowar projects?
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
And word got to Seymour Hersh (Seymour fucking Hersh!) even though presumably that was compartmentalized to "people talking in Dick Cheney's office."
Let's look at things we know absolutely for a fact (roughly chronologically):
<snip excellent post>
That's entirely plausible. The only variation in my own speculations is that instead of waiting for and seizing random opportunity, there could be small groups with the motivation and means to make these opportunities happen. All I would really like to see is an honest, transparent investigation into these sorts of things. All of the secrecy our government has created through the course of the Cold War has created an environment where this kind of transparency is not allowed in any kind of investigation. Too much happens behind closed doors in the name of National Security to deliver any kind of conclusive answer to the public in regard to these lines of questioning.
It's obvious that all kinds of things are deteriorating in the United States. It concerns me that we are not allowed to find out why. The possibility of crossing a point of no return is one that shouldn't be ignored. When secrecy becomes the refuge of criminals, whether by opportunity or design, it should be a concern for us all.
It's obvious that all kinds of things are deteriorating in the United States. It concerns me that we are not allowed to find out why. The possibility of crossing a point of no return is one that shouldn't be ignored. When secrecy becomes the refuge of criminals, whether by opportunity or design, it should be a concern for us all.
Why do you hate America and want the terrorists to win?
While they've been able to strong-arm their way into getting what they want, this administration has been absolutely terrible at covering its ass after the fact. This is pretty much inarguable.
They did a good job in some parts, the missing e-mails, the executive privilege uses. But then they probably realized they didn't need to cover their shit because look at just how 'in danger' of prosecution Bush's administration is in.
Hell he even got the telephone companies immunity. Through a hostile Congress no less.
I'm not even sure they care about damaging the Republican party anymore, they are all probably jacking off to the thrill of getting away with it all.
While they've been able to strong-arm their way into getting what they want, this administration has been absolutely terrible at covering its ass after the fact. This is pretty much inarguable.
They did a good job in some parts, the missing e-mails, the executive privilege uses. But then they probably realized they didn't need to cover their shit because look at just how 'in danger' of prosecution Bush's administration is in.
Hell he even got the telephone companies immunity. Through a hostile Congress no less.
I'm not even sure they care about damaging the Republican party anymore, they are all probably jacking off to the thrill of getting away with it all.
Describing this Congress as "hostile" isn't particularly accurate. Besides Waxman, Wexler, Leahy, Kucinich, and Conyers, it's more a timid, scared Congress.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
0
KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
While they've been able to strong-arm their way into getting what they want, this administration has been absolutely terrible at covering its ass after the fact. This is pretty much inarguable.
They did a good job in some parts, the missing e-mails, the executive privilege uses. But then they probably realized they didn't need to cover their shit because look at just how 'in danger' of prosecution Bush's administration is in.
Hell he even got the telephone companies immunity. Through a hostile Congress no less.
I'm not even sure they care about damaging the Republican party anymore, they are all probably jacking off to the thrill of getting away with it all.
Describing this Congress as "hostile" isn't particularly accurate. Besides Waxman, Wexler, Leahy, Kucinich, and Conyers, it's more a timid, scared Congress.
Well it was MEANT to be a hostile one anyway.
That's what people voted them in for supposedly.
Kagera on
My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
0
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
It's obvious that all kinds of things are deteriorating in the United States. It concerns me that we are not allowed to find out why. The possibility of crossing a point of no return is one that shouldn't be ignored. When secrecy becomes the refuge of criminals, whether by opportunity or design, it should be a concern for us all.
Why do you hate America and want the terrorists to win?
Posts
Oh sure, he's so disturbed he was still working in the government at the time of his death. I mean if he was so disturbed you'd think they'd notice that the first 20 years or so. But nope as soon as he might be implicated in a very serious plot he is killed.
I mean 'commits suicide'.
Art Bell was right all along.
I thought Art Bell would make it obvious I was not.
Then again, there are so many conspiracy theories out there one of them has to be right sometime.
Either way the incompetence you mention does not make me feel any better considering the shit we're talking about.
"Hey guys look I just made airborne ebola!" :trip:
And, you know, that he developed a vaccine and whatnot.
Or that the main character witness against him, a counselor, didn't talk to him until after the claims against him surface, and she only holds an associates degree in substance abuse counseling.
Now, those facts don't mean it wasn't him, but they also make it harder to say it was him as well. Without any real sort of context of this man's life, it's hard to flat out say he did it the way most of the media is.
Links to my sources (as found yesterday on digg) with links to his sources:
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/nyt-changes-anthrax-storyas-i-was-reading-it/
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2008/08/02/abc-news-is-selling-the-governments-anthrax-story-once-again/
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2008/08/02/dr-bruce-ivins-ms-jean-duley-and-the-fbis-court-document/
You guys already linked the awesome salon piece that more or less incriminates ABC news.
I'm not an expert but it doesn't seem likely that some lone scientist, regardless of access, could just mail out one of the most advanced bioweapons on the face of the planet. Something tells me that there is an unbelievable level of control, double blind security measures and failsafes in the security surrounding something like this strain of anthrax. If I'm wrong and someone has specific information about how you can check out bioweapons like renting DVD's or steal them from under the counter like a snickers bar, please let me know. I love being informed. Maybe there is an ABC news piece.
Also, Godwin's Law should be amended to include Bush/Zionism. It seems to have the same inflammatory effect on debate.
But claiming that an entire administration of planning terrorist attacks against American citizens is not an outrageous claim, but a claim of bureaucratic incompetence is? Do you have any idea how many people would know about something like this if it was actually planned and executed? It only takes one person that is not whole heartedly into a plot to kill American citizens to completely destroy the entire administration. Just one staffer leaking this to the media, just one. Too risky.
That's why you dispose of all participants after they are done with their part.
I mean, JEEZ even I know that.
But seriously, how many people would really need to know about this to get it done? I'm not making a claim but actually asking because I don't know
There are so many things that irk me about this case. The FBI thinks his motive was to test his vaccine on humans, but no one he sent the letters to had access to said vaccine, and I don't even think his final stages in the vaccine development came until later on.
His estranged brother who he hadn't talked to since 1985 says he was an egotistical dick, but everyone who worked with him that has talked to the media has said he was always calm, collected, polite, and professional, and that he didn't show signs of stress until the FBI openly stated they were considering him the new suspect.
The "medical" and "court" documents that are supposed to characterize him as some sort of demonic psychopath are only a week or so old, and stem from an event just a couple weeks ago when he attended a single group therapy session with a counselor who only had an associates in substance abuse consoling. The "court documents" come from a restraining order she filed just a day or two before his suicide, which are based on her lone account that he was a sociopath.
So, basically, the big character test this whole things is ridding on is a shoddy account of a single day in the last weeks of this man's life, when he was already well-aware how deep in the shit he was, and was battling anxiety, depression, and exhaustion.
This whole case is way fucked up and contradictory.
Now that they have anthrax the administration has said chemical weapons they would have to now tell the CIA director to do the deed. Now this puts another bureaucratic body into the mix. So the CIA would then send operatives to spread the anthrax and plant evidence that Islamist extremist were behind it. So theoretically under this theory the suspect would have been the inside man that "misplaced" the anthrax and was taken out before he could testify. Either way the anthrax had to be misplaced because of bureaucratic incompetence.
The main problem I see here is that this plan would involve two different bureaucratic bodies, the White House and the CIA. Homeland Security and the CIA are rival bodies, and I would not see them working great together. Also the White House is NEVER a unified body, operation Northwoods proves this. Also planning something like this would be harder now then say the 40s, 50s and 60s because of technology. The internet, cell phone cameras, and hidden audio just make something like this way too risky. Watergate also comes to mind when a conspiracy like this is thought up of. The CIA has no problems throwing a president under the bus, I think Deep throat ended up being the CIA director if I’m not mistaken. (I could be, please call me a dumbass if I am. Oh God it was the FBI director wasn’t it!)
I just think that this is in a similar vain as the 9/11 truthers, I have a friend that thinks it is not a ridicules idea to think that the President ordered the CIA to completely wire two huge skyscrapers with C4 and just have it lie around for months waiting for the planes to hit them and have it not be discovered by cleaning crews. But that’s way off topic.
Fair enough, here are some sources, I'll play along with your I need good facts theory for now!
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/5921638.html
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,5143,700247941,00.html
Also keep in mind that many serial killers seemed mild mannered to most people, thats why they were able to kill multible times without getting caught.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy
Of course Homeland Security didn't exist when the Anthrax mailings took place. Also, Mark Felt (aka Deep Throat) was Deputy Director of the FBI.
Anyway simple reason to suspect the government is not orchestrating massive conspiracies to kill American civilians and is instead a cynical entity that used said murders to help their case for war: this government is totally incompetent at everything they do.
Really? Really? Then can you possibly explain why we're neck-deep in Iraq right now, why the War on Terror's still continuing and why private companies, Dick Cheney's among them, are making enormous profits off a conflict that was started in part because of these anthrax letters that all levels of government and the media were claiming came from Iraq before they were analyzed by the man who fucking sent them out in the first place?
You can claim that this is merely an astonishing series of coincidences rather than an out-an-out conspiracy, but don't shrug it off with such a brainless excuse. This administration drained America dry, it set back foreign relations with the Middle East by at least another decade, and it's going to get away with everything it did. That is NOT. FUCKING. INCOMPETENCE.
edit: And as of what Remote Viewer said, yes, two of the letter-receivers were meant to be the chief Democratic opponents of the motherfucking Patriot Act. My goodness, this rogue scientist certainly did have his fingers deep in the political goings-on of the day.
You can offer a method for accountability?
I'd like just as well to see at least the chief perpetrators swing for what they've done, but they won't. There's too many ways out, and not enough people notice or care to get riled up about it.
Was it likely he was going to tell the truth about who sent the letters?
Um, he was a right wing hardcore Christian ideologue, if this is the guy. Targeting Democrats is not exactly surprising if you're a certain brand of disturbed Rush Limbaugh/Sean Hannity listener (see the church shooting in Tennessee last week, for example). If you'll remember, anyone who opposed the PATRIOT Act was demonized by the right 24-7 for months. So his aim (again, assuming it was him, it'd be nice of the FBI to make the evidence public) isn't exactly surprising.
As for why we're in Iraq and the "war on terror" continues it's pretty simple. The current administration's main foreign policy gurus are rabid ideologues of a theory that promotes a Pax Americana in the form of a new imperialism. Obviously the main place you want to control as an imperialist is the Middle East because it has lots of oil, the one resource America does not have enough of in its borders. So they cynically used 9/11 and the Anthrax attacks, along with a complicit media, to scare the fuck out of people.
So why are they going to get away with everything? It's not because they're competent, goodness knows. It's because the Democrats are cowards (and the high ranking Democrats (Pelosi/Hoyer/Reid in particular) approved of many of the embarrassing/criminal portions) and the media is ashamed because they've assisted this administration at every step. The problem is consolidation of power in the executive branch and consolidation of media companies more than anything.
Oh God, I've got to stop talking about this before I lose my mind.
Well, fearful of lost ratings if they're exposed as a bunch of lying scumbags who helped get us into war. Is that better?
That, and massive criminal conspiracies are notoriously difficult to keep quiet. It's 9/11 Truthery in small form.
So how did Germany convert a baby carriage factory into a machine gun factory in the thirties without anyone knowing? Or get away with burning down the Reichstag for that matter? Compartmentalization. Everyone involved had a little tiny part to play, and that part was kept confidential between compartments. These are small innocuous parts, no big deal. Instead of machining this bit, now I machine that bit and send it down the line. The only people who knew what was really going on were the people running the factory and the few trusted people at the end of the assembly line.
Why is it that whenever these discussions come up, it's always an all or nothing scenario? It's always the entire machinery of government was behind it or it's just sheer incompetence. History usually demonstrates that simplistic, generalized solutions miss the mark. Why isn't the possibility of entrenched rogue factions working within the apparatus of our government ever really discussed? There is plenty of corruption and criminality to be leveraged by rogue elements within our government and industry. Roman history demonstrates how this kind of problem works readily.
edit: Check this out.
Yes, Hersh as in Seymor Hersh.
In this kind of environment, many things are possible. There is video of this interview at the link, check it out.
Let's look at things we know absolutely for a fact (roughly chronologically):
1) The Bush Administration wanted to attack Iraq from the inauguration onward.
2) 9/11 happened
3) A week later, the first Anthrax mailing took place.
4) All the mailings were aimed at media institutions (first attack)
5) Second attack happens, targeting democratic US Senators Daschle and Leahy.
6) Not long after, the administration starts hinting through surrogates (such as Sen. McCain) that Iraq may have been behind it.
7) They leak messages to the media "confirming" that. ABC News in particular Brian Ross leads the charge.
8) The FBI is not entirely retarded and realizes it was probably the work of a government scientist, they focus on Steven Hatfield, proving they are kind of retarded.
9) The FBI proceeds to leak the hell out of that investigation, further proving they're retarded. Hatfield, it turns out, is exonerated.
10) Iraq is attacked.
11) ABC airs The Path to 9/11, a made up bunch of bullshit excoriating the Clinton administration and largely blaming them for 9/11 (I think this is an important point in our examination, I'll explain in a minute)
12) The occupation of Iraq is entirely bungled, just like every other thing this administration has ever done, with the possible exception of smearing John Kerry.
13) Democrats come into power in November of 2006.
14) Democrats fail at investigating the Bush Administration. They particularly fail at investigating torture, because the democratic leadership approved the techniques.
15) The FBI's main suspect commits suicide just before he is indicted on five counts of murder and faces the death penalty.
Caveat: the FBI bungled this investigation once before, so this guy could be innocent. I would like to see Congress investigate this angle of it and get a full accounting of the evidence against this man.
My Speculation (not unreasonable, I think):
However, based on his letters to the editor of his local newspaper it would appear he was a fundamentalist Christian who supported the Bush Administration. This gives him means, motive, and opportunity in theory. Note the targets, media institutions (zomg liberal!) and Democratic Senators. If the Administration was involved in some grand conspiracy, it seems to me they would likely have at least faked an attack on themselves/the Pentagon/something. If we believe the Hersh story, they were willing to kill SEALs to get a war with Iran, and somehow I don't think they've become less moral over the years.
Meanwhile, the administration obviously sensed an opportunity. Americans were afraid, it had been established early on that Al Qaeda was behind the attacks on 9/11 and images of scary brown people were floating everywhere. With the Anthrax attacks, the appearance of a coordinated assault on America got people really scared. The only nation in the region it could plausibly be pinned on (because this was obviously the work of a nation-state) was Iraq because Americans already had the image of him as a boogeyman and he gassed the Kurds so possession of such substances wouldn't seem totally ridiculous. Ignore the motive for Iraq actively pissing off the US, because that part makes no sense, but didn't have to in the current media climate.
It was also clear to everyone who worked for the government based on things I've read that they wanted evidence to go to war with Iraq. So when the guy theoretically responsible was asked where it came from, of course he would make sure to come up with the predetermined conclusion the government wanted. Everyone else in the intelligence business did. So Iraq is blamed. And that particular piece of information is leaked to the press. Especially ABC and ABC News, which has been as pro-administration/generally Republican as anyone outside of Fox (see: The Path to 9/11, the Democratic "debate" between Clinton and Obama that was more Smearfest '08 than debate), and they're far more dangerous as they can be subtle. Brian Ross runs with the story. People are scared, the sought result is achieved and we're in Iraq.
None of this requires government foreknowledge of the attacks or planning of the attacks. What I will grant you is that there may have been some obstruction of justice in attempts to steer the FBI away from the most reasonable suspects (people who worked at Fort Detrick or possibly CDC) until the march to war had become inevitable.
I think fear (on the part of the public), greed (the administration), stupidity (FBI), and laziness (media) are more rational explanations than grand conspiracies, or even less grand compartmentalized conspiracies. And as I said, that Iran thing if it's true leaked to Sy Hersh, who's among the most liberal reporters in the country. Somehow I think a far more complicated plot with more members would also get out to someone who wanted to report it.
They also got creamed in the elections two years ago, and it's about to happen again. The Bush administration hasn't gotten as much flak as they deserve, sure, but they've fucked up a lot and people have noticed.
While they've been able to strong-arm their way into getting what they want, this administration has been absolutely terrible at covering its ass after the fact. This is pretty much inarguable.
That's entirely plausible. The only variation in my own speculations is that instead of waiting for and seizing random opportunity, there could be small groups with the motivation and means to make these opportunities happen. All I would really like to see is an honest, transparent investigation into these sorts of things. All of the secrecy our government has created through the course of the Cold War has created an environment where this kind of transparency is not allowed in any kind of investigation. Too much happens behind closed doors in the name of National Security to deliver any kind of conclusive answer to the public in regard to these lines of questioning.
It's obvious that all kinds of things are deteriorating in the United States. It concerns me that we are not allowed to find out why. The possibility of crossing a point of no return is one that shouldn't be ignored. When secrecy becomes the refuge of criminals, whether by opportunity or design, it should be a concern for us all.
I'm cool with that too, Congress should definitely look into it if for no other reason than how the hell did an unstable guy get access to our biowar projects?
:^:
They did a good job in some parts, the missing e-mails, the executive privilege uses. But then they probably realized they didn't need to cover their shit because look at just how 'in danger' of prosecution Bush's administration is in.
Hell he even got the telephone companies immunity. Through a hostile Congress no less.
I'm not even sure they care about damaging the Republican party anymore, they are all probably jacking off to the thrill of getting away with it all.
Describing this Congress as "hostile" isn't particularly accurate. Besides Waxman, Wexler, Leahy, Kucinich, and Conyers, it's more a timid, scared Congress.
Well it was MEANT to be a hostile one anyway.
That's what people voted them in for supposedly.
It's not just America. I hate freedom.
My favorite.
Murderers