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Return of the way too long Girl Thread!

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Comments

  • OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User
    edited August 2008
    Damn I know, even when you're thinking "yeah there are other wimmen" and you're not deluding yourself with that "the one" bullshit, you still think "well damn, I mustve messed up somewhere" or "still she really is something". So, good. We're all not delusional. Yes. Let me tell you something, if you want to just nonchalantly chat with some ladies and feel good. Don't go to a bar. That's just disgusting. Go to a coffee shop. There are probably ten billion of them in your town. They're all full of hot bohemian ladies. And you don't even need lines. You don't even have to spend 6 ameros on a drink. You're just sitting next to them anyway. And you're suddenly a part of the action. It's very much a confidence builder.

    Edit: Did I mention how much these women want to talk to you? And how hot they are?

    the GOP shouldn't give a rats ass about them since they won't vote for them. If someone won't vote for you they might as well not exist.
  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Well, to be quite honest, this whole thing just seems so melodramatic. Well, not the whole thing, just my initial reaction to it. I'm feeling normal again, but I'm still thinking about this a bunch. It's like, there's not really much to be upset about. I went out with her once and acted oddly the whole time. She didn't like the way I was acting, she overreacted to it, and now all the sudden I should cut off all contact from her?

    I don't get it. I mean, I'm almost thinking more about what people in the thread are saying than the situation. I know the usual response in threads like these. Things go wrong and "run for the hills" or "cut off all contact" are shouted over and over again. And it's good advice, usually. But, I don't know, I'm going to see her again. I'm not going to tell my friends to cut her off from parties or what not. And I feel better than I did before this whole thing blew up actually.

    I know what you guys will say to this, that I'm "holding on to my one hope for blah blah blah the one" crap, but that's really not it. I'm just not going to write her off. That's all. If she comes around, and she sees I'm not the way I think she's thinking I am, she may change her mind about the whole thing. I'm not holding out hope for that, but I just disagree that well, she's a bitch, we "don't click", or anything else that says "this is never ever going to happen".

    Right now I'm thinking "wait and see what happens" is the best choice of action for me as far as this girl goes. If nothing, that's cool. That'll more than likely be the case. But thinking "this is done forever and nothing else will ever happen with this ever" seems like cheap melodramatic advice. It's making the whole thing seem much more important than it really is. It actually makes me obsess about it more than if it's just "Dani isn't interested in me right now, fine, shelf that, move on, but don't go out of my way to ignore she exists".

    In other words I'm trying to find the right way for my mind to get over this without me going into a rejection coma where I'm afraid to pursue other girls because of being rejected. It's not the end of the world, and it's not the end of Dani (I don't care about fake names at this point, everything in this thread is so specific anyways). The whole thing failed on a romantic level, not a buddy one. We can still hang out around eachother, and sooner or later we may be able to do it as friends. Maybe it's a good idea to say that I'm not as worried about not being able to date her as I am not being able to be friends with her. Because if I can't be friends with her I've really screwed up. Like, worse than I ever have before.

    Basically, putting a "we'll never get along" onto this makes me think I've failed again. Putting a "it may be a few weeks before we should be around eachother" makes me think I've messed up, but not enough to be upset over. Not enough to obsess over. And certainly not enough go completely back into my shell. I think I'm making progress here on my attitude towards this. I mean, sure, it's not "I'm over it", but it's better than what I was thinking 2-3 days ago.

    I know it may seem kinda redundant at this point, but that's what I'm trying to get from this thread right now... a better attitude towards this so I can consider myself over it.

  • ZeeBeeKayZeeBeeKay Registered User
    edited August 2008
    So, to begin with the positives, for once:

    I agree with you that this is melodramatic. Everyone involved overreacted. It was the perfect drama-storm, and everyone has at least a bazillion of them in their lives. You're most definitely correct that running in the opposite direction at full speed is even more overreacting. Just...hang out with her like normal. Don't try to flirt with her. Don't try to do anything. Just hang with your friends.

    For the worse bits:

    FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAN SHE IS NOT GOING TO COME AROUND. THINKING THIS IS SHOOTING YOURSELF IN THE FOOT. YOU WILL NOT CHANGE HER. NOTHING WILL CHANGE HER. Go out, have fun, meet other girls, or at least talk to other girls. Jen is NOT going to magically decide that she was wrong about you all along.

    I will say that if she is playing games, as she sounds like she may be, then ambling away at a moderate pace may be your best solution. However, it's definitely not necessary at this point. What is necessary is just acting like nothing big happened, because, guess what? Nothing big happened.

  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    ZeeBeeKay wrote: »
    FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAN SHE IS NOT GOING TO COME AROUND. THINKING THIS IS SHOOTING YOURSELF IN THE FOOT. YOU WILL NOT CHANGE HER. NOTHING WILL CHANGE HER. Go out, have fun, meet other girls, or at least talk to other girls. Jen is NOT going to magically decide that she was wrong about you all along.

    I will say that if she is playing games, as she sounds like she may be, then ambling away at a moderate pace may be your best solution. However, it's definitely not necessary at this point. What is necessary is just acting like nothing big happened, because, guess what? Nothing big happened.

    Yes, nothing big happened. I agree with that. That's what I'm saying.

    As for changing her, I'm not talking about changing her. I'm just saying I'm not going to act like she's some foreign substance filled with hate. I've overreacted to stuff before, and I've changed my mind about people before. Yelling at me with caps locks on won't change the fact that nothing really happened here.

    As I said in the last post, I'm talking about being friends. Part of the reason this whole thing bothers me so much is because I met someone cool, and it got bogged up by silly relationship bullshit on my end. I'm not going to pursue anything beyond friendship with her again, but a friendship is something I think would be worth working towards, just not right now.

    I guess my last post could be read as "I still want to hook up with her", but really I just don't want us to have to avoid eachother or not get along at all if we do see eachother. That's all I'm talking about. I don't think I'd ever feel comfortable with trying to get into a relationship with this girl after all this, but we have a lot of common interests. That's usually the main thing I look for in a friend.

  • CryogenCryogen Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    FYI - The long version of the general advice "Cut off all contact!" is more like "Cut off all contact until you genuinely feel like the feelings have dissipated. As in, if she showed up with another guy on her arm, you wouldnt have any problem with that at all." Its not a permanent lifetime ban on the person.

  • ZeeBeeKayZeeBeeKay Registered User
    edited August 2008
    And it definitely is good to still be friends with her. I'm not saying it's not. I'm saying that But thinking "this is done forever and nothing else will ever happen with this ever" seems like cheap melodramatic advice" and "I'm just not going to write her off. That's all. If she comes around, and she sees I'm not the way I think she's thinking I am, she may change her mind about the whole thing" is not wanting to just be friends with her. Trust me. I lost one of my best guy friends because he was hoping that I'd just come around, and he could never quite shake that, and that's a really shit situation.

    If you're being friends with her with even the slight hope of her coming around, or really even considering the possibility of her coming around, she'll figure it out. She'll either get sick of it, or use it to play more mindgames if that's what she's been doing. (I have no idea if that's what she's been doing or not)

    Yeah Cryogen said it better than I've been saying it.

  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Eh, chalk that one up to me phrasing this badly. Friends is all I was talking about there. At the moment we're not that. I was saying she might come around to that.

  • DiscoZombieDiscoZombie Registered User
    edited August 2008
    look, girls are people too. She's not evil, she's just messed up like you, but in different ways. she probably has even worse self confidence than you do. people with bad self confidence have defense mechanisms to cope with it. you've said that sometimes you're shy, sometimes you're sarcastic or an asshole. those are self defense mechanisms to cope with your low self confidence. they're perfectly normal traits, even if they're not generally desirable.

    then you told her you liked her, which was a brave step for anyone. now, with her probably terrible self confidence, she didn't know how to deal with this. some people can't believe anyone would like them, so they push anyone who likes them away. she'll probably wind up with some abusive macho guy who doesn't really like her and pushes her around, because in her subconscious mind she thinks that's what she deserves. and, because it's the world she has constructed for herself, she will deserve it. but perhaps I'm trying to be a little too clairvoyant =p

    I have to echo everyone else in saying, even if you have trouble dropping her from your mind, you have to let it go. as far as I'm concerned, the "last chance" was HER last chance with YOU. even if you WERE bitching for an hour - if I was with someone I liked, I would LOVE to hear her bitch for an hour. It shows trust in the person you're with to reveal the things you don't like about your life, and she betrayed that trust.

    you should find someone else. someone who would listen eagerly to your problems, but someone who inspires you to try to make her happy. I need to find someone like that too. I just got out of a ten year failed relationship myself. consider yourself lucky - maybe you haven't had true success yet, but at least you haven't flushed 10 years down the tubes on a failed experiment =p

  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    look, girls are people too. She's not evil, she's just messed up like you, but in different ways. she probably has even worse self confidence than you do. people with bad self confidence have defense mechanisms to cope with it. you've said that sometimes you're shy, sometimes you're sarcastic or an asshole. those are self defense mechanisms to cope with your low self confidence. they're perfectly normal traits, even if they're not generally desirable.

    Oh I agree here. I'm not crazy or anything. I've just never learned to get over my social anxieties. I've never seen the point of forcing myself to. I don't know if she exactly has low self confidence or not. She wants to be a librarian. She's kinda dresses like she's trying not to get noticed. To me, that says she's not exactly comfortable with herself.
    then you told her you liked her, which was a brave step for anyone. now, with her probably terrible self confidence, she didn't know how to deal with this. some people can't believe anyone would like them, so they push anyone who likes them away.

    Eh, I was up to you until this. She knew I liked her already, all I did was say it out loud. If I had any inclination that this was the case, I wouldn't drop this whole thing So I'm just going to disagree with you, not only because I think you're wrong here, but also for my own sake of letting this go.
    she'll probably wind up with some abusive macho guy who doesn't really like her and pushes her around, because in her subconscious mind she thinks that's what she deserves. and, because it's the world she has constructed for herself, she will deserve it. but perhaps I'm trying to be a little too clairvoyant =p

    Ok, now I've gone from disagreeing to you with being slightly pissed at you. People don't deserve to get kicked around. If someone has low self confidence and ends up getting into an abusive relationship they need help. They don't deserve it. They need help. I'm not talking about Dani here, because as I said that's not what I think is going on. No one deserves to be in an abusive relationship. That shit is serious.
    I have to echo everyone else in saying, even if you have trouble dropping her from your mind, you have to let it go. as far as I'm concerned, the "last chance" was HER last chance with YOU. even if you WERE bitching for an hour - if I was with someone I liked, I would LOVE to hear her bitch for an hour. It shows trust in the person you're with to reveal the things you don't like about your life, and she betrayed that trust.

    The problem is that I not only was negative our whole date, but from a certain point of view I got her drunk, confessed my emotions for her, and then kissed her. I mean, of course that's not what I was thinking at the time... I didn't plan a whole "get her drunk then talk to her" thing. It's just how it happened. But I can see how from her point of view I crossed a line. And I respect that.
    you should find someone else. someone who would listen eagerly to your problems, but someone who inspires you to try to make her happy. I need to find someone like that too. I just got out of a ten year failed relationship myself. consider yourself lucky - maybe you haven't had true success yet, but at least you haven't flushed 10 years down the tubes on a failed experiment =p

    Eh, right now I don't need to find someone who will listen to my problems. I think the first step here is to fix some of my problems. I'm not going to be able to go out with a girl if everything else in my life bothers me. I'm not looking for someone to complete me or fix my problems... just someone I can enjoy being around who feels the same way about me.

  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Here's what I'm thinking right now... It's much easier to get pissed at myself or her than to just look at the situation for what it is and move on. I'm starting to get to the point where I'm ok with what happened, where I can look at it, learn from it, and not be upset by it. Which in my mind is moving on.

    Jumping directly to going out with a different girl wouldn't be me getting over this. I've done that before, it doesn't work for me. I need to be ok with what happened first.

  • DiscoZombieDiscoZombie Registered User
    edited August 2008
    sorry - didn't mean to overstep my bounds. sometimes I get a little overzealous in trying to read people, and I also worded that poorly. I didn't mean that anyone would deserve to be in an abusive relationship, but a lot of people wind up in them because they set themselves up for it. but I was really rambling and diverging from my point anyway. all I was trying to say is that, if she was turning away from you, it's not because she's a bad person, and it's not because you're a bad person. it was because your individual insecurities didn't match up properly. but it sounds like you know that already.

    I'm on a cooldown period myself. I'm looking to start dating again but it wouldn't be fair to the other person if I wasn't ready to give myself completely to them. you have to be emotionally prepared if you want a serious relationship. as with almost anything, the prep work is probably harder than the actual relationship -_-

  • LewishamLewisham Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    This thread has had the same advice for the last 6 pages, which is the longest in recent memory.

    Apart from maybe that Penguin_Otaku dating one.

  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Lewisham wrote: »
    This thread has had the same advice for the last 6 pages, which is the longest in recent memory.

    Apart from maybe that Penguin_Otaku dating one.

    And for the last 6 pages I've been trying to take the advice "get this shit out of your head, move on". It's just not easy for me to do accomplish that when I just don't have much else to focus on.

    But, I think I have a plan good plan to help me relax some and get this out of my head. If I get that job I was talking about, I'm just going to immediately quit at my current job. Tell the Grassroots place that I can't start until the 18th, and go home for a week. I've been kinda homesick, and visiting my family and friends would go a long way to cheering me up and forgetting about this. That and drinking with my friends. Then, by the time I get back, I'll be starting a new fulltime job, be a lot less stressed out in general, and this will all be a stupid or funny thing that happened a few weeks ago.

    Of course, that hinges on me getting the job, which I interview for tomorrow. If all goes well, this time tomorrow night I'll be in Illinois.

  • y2jake215y2jake215 The style is radiation leak at mile island Also known as Chernobyl talk, listen for the sirensRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    that is a perfectly acceptable idea. go home, visit your family, visit your old friends, and chill. ive been in your situation.. really, just go do what you usually do. DONT obsess over this, as is easy to do. just relax. take a break, and get over it. this girl sucks. she doesnt know what she wants, or she is already past you. on the 1 in 100 chance she really wants you, ignoring her will get her to acknowledge you. so you really can't do any wrong by trying to just pass her by. when she's at your house, treat her like a friend, but nothing more. seriously, dont apologize, dont act like you did something wrong, shes already past you. act like you never thought anything of her. because if she REALLY wanted to be with you anyway, she'll let you know. just being friends won't ruin that.

    y7dKgGy.jpg
    maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
  • ZeeBeeKayZeeBeeKay Registered User
    edited August 2008
    Good luck with the job, man! Sounds like you've got the perfect idea for the next few days.

  • IogaIoga Registered User
    edited August 2008
    A few years back I went through something similar. I don't feel like I had your self-esteem issues, but I was hung-up on a girl. I got to know this girl and even got to the point where she showed some interest in me...and then I screwed it up. I over-analyzed everything and made gestures to her of rather unnecessary scale towards her. Flowers, letters, etc. This was just a girl I knew from class. In a way this was lucky, because I saw her every day and through this we worked out a way of getting along without being uncomfortable. We ended up being pretty decently friendly in the end.

    The fact was, that my over-analysis of everything I did ruined things for me. Back then I adored everything about her. In the end, I know now that was the desperate part of me trying to legitimize wanting to have a physical relationship with a cute girl. She was a great girl and was really nice to me, but she was the goddess I had her made up to be in my mind. At all. Sadly, the "pussy on a pedestal" metaphor is correct in this case.

    This condition, I think, comes from being an introvert. Being an introvert isn't a bad thing at all; we look at the world and reflect upon it deeply and internalize it. Unfortunately, it also means that we project our thoughts and feelings into the world. We over-analyze and over-internalize.

    When an introvert is talking to someone, especially in a situation like when you're talking to a girl you really like, you'll probably take whatever you think of yourself and project it onto that person. She may be receptive to what you're saying, but if you think what you're saying is idiotic, you'll probably think she thinks that too. This is different from being an extrovert in that you take the reactions of whomever your dealing with and you read them and then you adjust your behavior.

    Essentially you end up thinking about yourself or judging yourself for her. Which will lead to further awkwardness.

    Like, when you want to go back and fix things with this girl. It's because you can't stand the idea of someone going around thinking you're a complete fucking creep and perv, right?

    Well what does Jen think of you?...really?

    Did she call you complete fucking creep and a perv? No. That image is what you think of yourself, and you are projecting that onto her and back onto you.

    What we know she thinks of you as per her texts is this: you whine a lot.

    (Which, to go off on a bit of a tangent, is a no-no in front of girls you like. You should be upbeat, but not to the point of being annoying. Enough to make you not seem like a downer, like someone who could take a bad situation and make it not-so-bad through your attitude.)

    She doesn't think you're a perv, in all likelihood. In fact if she made out with you for a couple minutes without the use of mace, she probably liked you back, physically; at least when she's drunk. Nothing you did probably makes you seem like a creep, either. Maybe a whiny guy, but being a whiny guy doesn't make you some detestable beast.

    At worst? She probably isn't that into you anymore. Maybe you're an ok-looking guy, but your glass is half empty and she doesn't like that.

    Big fucking deal. Maybe cute n' nerdy Sally over there would love to hear about it has a few stories about how she's been fucked over by roommates in the past too. You'll never know if you let this girl destroy your ego.

    No matter what is wrong with you, no matter how much your life sucks, no matter how awkward you make things, you had the best intentions and that is great. You tried with this girl and you cared; she didn't want it and not everyone will. So walk away and find someone who does. There are other girls who would love some attention. I'm not saying Jen is a piece of shit who should be cast aside like gum stuck to your shoe. You like this girl for a reason, and that's not gonna go away. But there's lots of other nice, cute girls out there who are just as good or better who need some...Death of Rats?...:|...work on that... lovin and you not having the balls to give that to them is a waste of an existence on this Earth.

    Confidence itself, as an attribute, doesn't exist. It's a state of mind that is reached when you lack self-doubt. All you can do is shrug that off and go forward.

    If you analyze anything from all this, let it be this: that you over-analyze. Realize this and compensate in your actions in the future.

  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I got the job. And just as I planned I went home for a week. Well so far the week has been a stress filled bullshit ride full of fun and way to much money I had to spend that I don't have.

    But that's kinda normal for me, so I'm not too upset about it.

    I'm still having a hard time not thinking about things, but I don't get upset when I think about things anymore. I just count to ten and continue doing whatever I was doing. I've also been taking long walks and such.

    Even if I'm not getting over the whole thing, I am starting to feel much more... I dunno, active. And that means I'm getting out of my depression (not caused by the girl, just added to because of it). I've started working on artwork again, trying to plan ahead financially, working out. All things I can't bring myself to do when depressed. I'm coming out of it, and that will make everything much easier.

  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    So over the course of the last week I've kinda broken down. I've been on the cusp of a realization, and I finally had it. I've been depressed for a long time. I have anxiety problems (hell, I got let go from the Air Force because of it). I have much bigger problems than this girl. Of course it took me finding her livejournal, reading through it, starting to obsess over her again and all that good creepy internet stalker shit to realize it, but that's fine. Now that I know what actually is going on with me I can let shit with her go.

    Anyway, I broke down and told my parents what's been going through my head. They kinda knew, I mean, they've been going through the same shit I have. We talked for a good 4 hours last night about everything in my life. My school situation, my job situation, my girl situations, everything. And the fact that sometimes I just wish I would die in my sleep. The fact that I get no enjoyment out of anything anymore. All that "HEY IDIOT, YOU HAVE DEPRESSION" stuff.

    They suggested that I should go to the family doctor and see what he thought I should do. Whether it would be counseling or anti depressants. Well, I did, and he thinks that with an anti-depressant I should be able to get myself back on track, and learn to deal with things normally again (I haven't gone into it, but over the past 7 years there's been some stuff in my life that has had to be handled in an overanalizing fashion. Once I started with it, it kinda stuck with me and spread to everything).

    So now I'm on Citalopram. And well, I'm not sure what to think about it. It's not suppose to take affect for about a week, and really I'm just scared of all the normal things people are scared of when they start taking a mood altering drug. I've realized that I can't get my life back on track on my own. And I'm more than willing to accept help, even if it is a drug. I'm just hoping it actually does the trick.

    Either way, I've decided that besides my parents and my roommates no one needs to know about this. My roommates do because one of the side effects can be a worsened depression, including strong thoughts of suicide. And plus, it might help them to know that I have found some form of help. That I'm aware of the way I've been recently, and that I'm working to change it. Oh, and you guys, I'll go ahead and tell you guys.

  • ThylacineThylacine Registered User
    edited August 2008
    Well, I'm sure you've realized this...but just taking action to do something to fight the depression helps some, instead of feeling inactive and helpless. Glad to hear things are getting better, and let us know how it goes.

  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Huh... It looks like citalopram is used to treat Depression, Anxiety, and Social Anxiety. Looks like this is the right thing for me to be taking, all things considered.

  • TrowizillaTrowizilla Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I'm glad you opened up to your parents about your mental issues. Try very hard to get into counseling, please? The meds will help you deal with your chemical rut, but you could use some therapy to get out of the negative thought patterns that people fall into with depression.

  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    For some reason (and this seemed kinda odd to me) my doctor said that he doesn't think I need counseling. At least not right now. He pretty much told me that he thinks I can come out of this with the help of the anti depressant, but that if I can't, then we'd look into counseling. Maybe it's just because he knows a little about my situation and why I've gotten to this point.

    And to some extent I agree with him. I've gone through 6 years of hell with my family. I haven't been able to let go of what happened because it's still happening. But now that I'm off on my own, I need to be able to focus on my problems and my life.

    And once the constant pressure that I feel on everything I do is lessened by the medication (this is pretty much the way he described it working, problems getting lessened down to a more realistic state in my head), I'll be able to make better decisions. And through that I'll relearn how to deal with problems in a healthy manner.

    The way he was talking he thinks I should be on this for at least a year. That's quite enough time for me to turn my life around.

    (also, and this is just me nitpicking, but I'm fond of referring to this whole thing as emotional issues. I'm not crazy, seeing things and hearing voices. I'm desperate for change in my life. However I'm too overrun by the stress and pressure of it all to actually feel much of anything anymore besides the desperation.)

  • ZeeBeeKayZeeBeeKay Registered User
    edited August 2008
    You should definitely get in to therapy of some sort, 'cause antidepressants should be used in concert with therapy, not just by themselves.

    Also, if the meds you're on now don't do it for you (for whatever reason) talk to whoever prescribed them/a doctor with whom you have a good relationship about your mental health. People can have to switch meds multiple times to get it just right, and it's not worth taking something that makes you even more unhappy.

    Best of luck, man, you're on the right track.

  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    a doctor put you on anti depressants without any therapists' consultation? Is he at least a psychiatrist or was this a GP?

    "Maybe we're here to eat the sandwich." -- Joe Rogan
  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    He's the family doctor. He knows a lot about my situation. I'm sure he wouldn't put me on anti depresants unless he thought I needed them. When I brought up counseling, he acted like it wasn't necessary for now.

    I really don't have a lot of choices when it comes to healthcare. I'm uninsured and broke. He's going to do everything he can to make sure I get better. But most doctors around here try the simplest (and cheapest) solution for the patient first, then see what, if anything, comes next.

  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    You can't really expect your situation to change thanks to a purely chemical intervention

    OooOOOoOoOOOooOOOoOOOoOoOOoOOoOOOOOOOOoooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo
  • LewishamLewisham Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    You can't really expect your situation to change thanks to a purely chemical intervention

    Agreed.

    Your doctor is wrong to suggest the way you are feeling about things is a purely chemical imbalance and you being unable to work through your problems yourself while that imbalance is in place.

    Even if the councelling does nothing for you at all, you would be in a far better position if you were in it than out. Making a thread at H&A like your own is essentially asking for councelling. We're not the socks and sandals guy that goes "Were you beaten as a child?", more the guy that will listen to your problems, go "Man, life sucks, but beer is good, so just [basic remedy to problem] and let's go to the pub." A councellor will be able to soundboard your feelings and thoughts back to you a lot better as that's what they're trained to do. Combined with the meds, you'll find it a lot easier to find the root causes of your anxieties.

    I think you should go back to your GP and ask him to refer you.

  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Well, if his GP is really familiar with his situation, he might feel the right support is available, and/or be trying to save DoR some money on formal therapy.

    Really, anti-depressants without SOME support system are just drugs. Maybe not paid therapy but find some people to talk to. A girl, a priest, someone. Fuck, dude, you can hit me up on xbL and unload on me while I play CoD4 if you want.

    Also, positive life change works best in small groups. You want to group your change, but reasonably. For example, you don't want to say, "I'm going to go on a diet, save more money, be more positive, and get taller through hypnosis"

    Make a list of focused, achievable short term goals. Chunk the problem, just like you'd do with math or memorization or science.

    "I will be more firm with family members that impose on my time this month"
    "I will eliminate one serving of soda from my daily diet this month"
    "I will do 50 situps in the morning this month"
    "I will answer one classified ad every weekday, before noon"

    Next month, evaluate if you did well, if not why, and if the change had secondary effects, and if the change is worth trying to make permanent.

    "Maybe we're here to eat the sandwich." -- Joe Rogan
  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I'm not. That would be using this as a crutch instead of a tool. This is a tool. One that hopefully will allow me to change the way I think about things. I haven't been able to do that on my own. Not when most of the things that cause me to think like I do are caused by the way I think. I'm not looking at this to be a magical cure all. And I'm certainly not wanting to be on this forever.

    But for now I'm going to trust that my doctor knows what he's doing. I've gone to him for years for various things, so have my parents.

    (edit)

    Oh, I do have a support system in place for talking about things. One of my roommates is a certified counselor. Another one of my friends is one as well. I have people to talk to. And as I said, I'm not expecting the drugs to fix things, just to make it so I feel like I can fix them.

  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I'm not. That would be using this as a crutch instead of a tool. This is a tool. One that hopefully will allow me to change the way I think about things. I haven't been able to do that on my own. Not when most of the things that cause me to think like I do are caused by the way I think. I'm not looking at this to be a magical cure all. And I'm certainly not wanting to be on this forever.

    But for now I'm going to trust that my doctor knows what he's doing. I've gone to him for years for various things, so have my parents.

    (edit)

    Oh, I do have a support system in place for talking about things. One of my roommates is a certified counselor. Another one of my friends is one as well. I have people to talk to. And as I said, I'm not expecting the drugs to fix things, just to make it so I feel like I can fix them.

    Okay so they are a tool- a tool you are using for what purpose? If you don't have specific and very tangible goals and aims you aren't just going to have a miraculous perspective inversion. Simply saying "I will change the way I think about things" will not change the way you think about things. Tell us the things you want to change about yourself and work towards them.

    OooOOOoOoOOOooOOOoOOOoOoOOoOOoOOOOOOOOoooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo
  • CerriusCerrius Registered User
    edited August 2008
    I skimmed through this entire thread in about fifteen minutes, reading mostly what DoR had to say about his woman problems, and it can be surmised like this:

    - DoR meets girl and both feel attraction. However, he barely talks to her (if at all) due to approach anxiety and does not build upon this attraction.

    - DoR and girl hang out, but DoR's roommate dominates the conversation, ensuring that DoR again does not build upon her initial attraction. Girl most likely begins falling for DoR's roommate, as he appears to be of higher Survival-and-Replication (S-and-R) value than DoR.

    - DoR tries arraigning second hang out or date, but girl is turning cold because he is now of lesser S-and-R than she initially thought. But he still manages to get the one-on-one date (she gives him a second chance).

    - DoR has good initial date (or maybe he just thinks so). He does not touch her, aka applying kino, to show that he is comfortable with her physically and that it would be fine for her to do the same. They go to a party and again he fails to build attraction. He decides to move prematurely into seducing the girl and makes out with her while she is drunk, aka Fool's mate. Girl is so turned off that she would rather drive home drunk then spend more time with DoR.

    - DoR thinks girl actually listened to what he had to say and gets his hopes up.

    - Girl gets Buyers Remorse the next morning and tells him its off. DoR tries to fix things and eventually she tells him that she has a boyfriend to try and get him to stop. DoR and everyone else gets mad at girl for rejecting him, when its his own fault for not doing a good job of attracting the girl, seducing her, then closing with her.


    Now, are you and everyone else that is Another Frustrated Chump (this includes me) listening?

    Then you should read the book The Mystery Method by Mystery. If you've seen the show The Pickup Artist on mTV or VH1, its the same guy from the show. If you haven't seen it, he instructs men on how to meet, attract, seduce, and close with women through Social Dynamics and not through cheesy pickup lines or blatant physical seduction. Within the first 50 pages of the book, you will learn how all of us screwed up on women like "Jen." And then you will learn how to successfully get in that relationship with Jen, and maybe improve your social skills.

    I could go on all night about this, really, I could. But I'll just close this with one of my favorite videos of Mystery explaining how this all works:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCUvxxVNsM

    [SIGPIC]image.php?type=sigpic&userid=5578&dateline=1219903129[/SIGPIC]
  • GrundlterrorGrundlterror Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I am really against this mystery method... it seems to go against everything about "be yourself" that makes relationships great. You are being yourself and the person likes you for you, and that's a feeling that can't be replaced by anything. I've been on both sides of the coin, one feels lonely and empty (because it's not you with the other person) and the other feels whole and satisfying (because it is you with the person who loves you for you and you love her for her). It's also why I don't feel sad at all when I get shot down or rejected, because I know I would never want to be with a person who did that to me... it would never feel as great as it does when that person is having the same giddy thoughts about you that you are having about her, and your thoughts meet with hers and things just fall into place.

    There is enough love in this world for everybody, if people will just look.

    steam_sig.png
  • LewishamLewisham Registered User regular
    edited August 2008

    Oh, I do have a support system in place for talking about things. One of my roommates is a certified counselor. Another one of my friends is one as well. I have people to talk to. And as I said, I'm not expecting the drugs to fix things, just to make it so I feel like I can fix them.

    That's cool, but remember that just because they are certified counselors, doesn't mean they want to counsel you. If you unload on them all the time, they might grow to resent it and then you.

    I would be surprised if professional therapists ever work with people they know.

  • SeolSeol Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Cerrius wrote: »
    Then you should read the book The Mystery Method by Mystery. If you've seen the show The Pickup Artist on mTV or VH1, its the same guy from the show. If you haven't seen it, he instructs men on how to meet, attract, seduce, and close with women through Social Dynamics and not through cheesy pickup lines or blatant physical seduction. Within the first 50 pages of the book, you will learn how all of us screwed up on women like "Jen." And then you will learn how to successfully get in that relationship with Jen, and maybe improve your social skills.
    Mmm. Read "The Game" by Neil Strauss first. Not "The Rules of The Game", I mean "The Game". That'll help put Mystery, and pickup artists in general, in context. Context is important.

    A lot of the skills taught by Mystery, Style, and so on are inwards rather than outwards things. It's about being more aware of yourself, devices to help keep you concentrating making the right impression rather than "secret techniques". Ignore the NLP bullshit, because even if it works it's very difficult to trust and then it feels like a process instead of a confidence-building thing. But a lot of it is the mental and body-language equivalent of "take care of your body, pay attention to hygiene, dress well", and that stuff is good advice.

  • noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I also wanted to say that I found it odd upon reading your reply that your doctor prescribed drugs but not therapy. Like others have said, the fact that you have created this thread and it's gone as far as has shows that if nothing else, you need someone esle to talk to. And while there's more than a couple of us here that are willing to listen to you, I think it always helps when you're face to face and like someone else said, have sounding board.

    Spoiler:
  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Things I want to do:

    Remember how to enjoy the things I like to do.

    Relearn how to be relaxed even when my life isn't the way I want it to be.

    Relearn what are small problems and what are big problems.

    Learn to focus on what's going on around me instead of what happened yesterday or what might happen in the future.



    If I can't do those things with the support structure I have around me, I'll seek out some counseling. That's what my doctor and I discussed yesterday. Basically, give me a few months for the medication to kick in and for me to get on the right dosage, and then if I'm not feeling right about the whole thing find me some counseling.

  • CerriusCerrius Registered User
    edited August 2008
    I am really against this mystery method... it seems to go against everything about "be yourself" that makes relationships great. You are being yourself and the person likes you for you, and that's a feeling that can't be replaced by anything. I've been on both sides of the coin, one feels lonely and empty (because it's not you with the other person) and the other feels whole and satisfying (because it is you with the person who loves you for you and you love her for her). It's also why I don't feel sad at all when I get shot down or rejected, because I know I would never want to be with a person who did that to me... it would never feel as great as it does when that person is having the same giddy thoughts about you that you are having about her, and your thoughts meet with hers and things just fall into place.

    There is enough love in this world for everybody, if people will just look.

    Its not about not being yourself or appearing to be someone else. Its about making who you are appear more attractive than you already are. You're figuratively puffing your chest out when you talk about your hobbies and what you do for a living, instead of just saying "I work in data processing and play computer games." How you come up with a way of making your nerd life more attractive is your problem, I'm still trying to figure that out myself.

    Yes, this does allow for a lot of lying to appear more attractive, but that won't work out in the long run. Liars tend to get dumped when they get caught.

    [SIGPIC]image.php?type=sigpic&userid=5578&dateline=1219903129[/SIGPIC]
  • CerriusCerrius Registered User
    edited August 2008
    Seol wrote: »
    Cerrius wrote: »
    Then you should read the book The Mystery Method by Mystery. If you've seen the show The Pickup Artist on mTV or VH1, its the same guy from the show. If you haven't seen it, he instructs men on how to meet, attract, seduce, and close with women through Social Dynamics and not through cheesy pickup lines or blatant physical seduction. Within the first 50 pages of the book, you will learn how all of us screwed up on women like "Jen." And then you will learn how to successfully get in that relationship with Jen, and maybe improve your social skills.
    Mmm. Read "The Game" by Neil Strauss first. Not "The Rules of The Game", I mean "The Game". That'll help put Mystery, and pickup artists in general, in context. Context is important.

    A lot of the skills taught by Mystery, Style, and so on are inwards rather than outwards things. It's about being more aware of yourself, devices to help keep you concentrating making the right impression rather than "secret techniques". Ignore the NLP bullshit, because even if it works it's very difficult to trust and then it feels like a process instead of a confidence-building thing. But a lot of it is the mental and body-language equivalent of "take care of your body, pay attention to hygiene, dress well", and that stuff is good advice.

    I read the first 50 pages or so of "The Game" at a friends house after he explained the gist of the book, which is also explained in the first chapter: that being a Pick Up Artist is a miserable existence with no real love in it. I was told that Strauss gets fed up running game on people but eventually finds love. I'm not advocating being a straight up PUA, I'm just trying to share the tools and techniques to help build attraction when that girl does come along.

    Everyone has the confidence to approach another person. Its being socially competent with your conversation that will determine whether the person you are talking with will reciprocate or not.

    [SIGPIC]image.php?type=sigpic&userid=5578&dateline=1219903129[/SIGPIC]
  • oncelingonceling Registered User
    edited August 2008
    The real thing I think people need to take away from these methods is sub-conscious signals that work and are effective, and some of the things we are attracted to that we can't help. The reality is that money, beauty, social status/power are all effective, attractive traits. We can bullshit on about "I only care about personality" - but the real truth is, faced with two girls with great personalities, one beautiful and the other ugly or fat, the guy will choose the beautiful one. That's natural selection. We can all choose to overcome or ignore these preferences. If the beautiful girl is an idiot, some of us *can* choose to ignore that preference, others can't. Some women want a rich man. We can call her a gold digger or whatever if we want, but intentions are not always malicious. Biologically, we are pre-wired to want our children to grow up supported. Nobody wants to struggle, and if they did, their genetic code wouldn't last long.

    All this new-age bullcrap about be yourself and money and beauty are only on the surface have been taken too far. We're looking at black and white answers for a grey question. Sure, someone should not marry an asshole because he has money, and someone shouldn't marry a beautiful bitch either. People do though - and if you believe in evolution, at least you have the comfort of knowing that these people will fail to raise children successfully *more often* than those that make better balanced choices.

    The real key, in my opinion, is about self-improvement. These methods suggest things that should be realistic goals for everyone. Everyone should want to have a decent job to support themselves. I don't think it's reasonable to want a family if you can't support one. We should be confident, positive and interesting. If you don't have these qualities, you should strive for them. Hiding in the corner wearing dirty, holey cheap clothes, complaining about your job at McDonalds while your well-dressed friends with office jobs chat up girls is not attractive. The only thing you can expect to attract in this situation is probably a girl that you'd consider 'beneath you'.

    I believe that these methods are not lying, they are simply showing you what people find attractive, and those things are things we should all strive for. Our partners should not have to try and change us - we should want to be good people already. If you attract people, you can then have your pick of compatible people. That is what it's really about. It's not striving to get to the top of some invisible ladder so you can pick the most beautiful or most rich partner. It's about being attractive to a wide enough group of people that allows you to (hopefully, assuming you can overcome natural urges) pick someone that is a match for you on many levels. This last part is the only time this 'be yourself' and 'love me for me' should come in. First, aim for being an attractive, positive personality. THEN you will be able to match yourself with the intangible personality of your dreams.

  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Would you guys please get that bullshit out of my thread? This is D&D type stuff. I'm not going to listen to anything that sounds like ladder theory or suggests that I should look at meeting women as a "game".

    In other words, there's enough crazy in this thread coming from me. There's no need for others to join the fun.

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