Or, if you're in a safe riding, and there's a Libertarian candidate on the ballot, vote for them. We are in serious need of funding
Unless of course you think libertarianism is dumb.
Well I was just jokingly playing off what the last guy said about Green Party candidates, but thanks for ruining the light hearted atmosphere for everyone.
I do not find the atmosphere ruined.
:P
Seriously, though, it is important for people to realise that their single vote actually does matter for their party of choice, even if they know their party stands no chance of winning that particular race.
I think the Liberals would be running away with this election if it wasn't for Stephane Dion. Seriously, this guy speaks English worse than Chretien. What the fuck! He's just terrible all around.
As it is, I'm expecting status quo. Hopefully Dion steps down and Ignatieff or somebody not-terrible becomes Liberal leader.
Ignatieff is still pretty terrible, look up any of Rick Mercer's comments on the guy and he pretty much gets heaped with scorn for relatively good reason.
Paul Martin was stronger than anyone the liberals have currently running in their midst in terms of prime-ministeryness... akthough he was a terrible campaigner (imho). I think its sort of a pity his liberals didn't form another government.
Here's hoping for a Conservative minority. Best Government Ever; tackling economic issues, too frightened to mess with social issues, and creating debate (such as it is) followed by compromise. I'll vote Lib again but since I'm in Calgary it's not going to matter much.
Sorry Greens, but the Libs have years of experience successfully managing a deceitful, corrupt organization, which pretty much defines the political system.
I'll be voting either Green or Liberal, which will depend on the local candidate here. If the candidate here is appealing enough, I may even volunteer for the Greens.
I think we'll see another Conservative minority though, unless Dion somehow develops a personality and runs a strong campaign. As others have mentioned, I fear the idea of a Conservative majority.... though I am not bothered by having them in a minority situation.
At this point I would be willing to tolerate a Liberal/NDP coalition if it meant preventing another Harper government. The Conservatives need to be stopped before they can do any more damage.
This. This is why I like our political system. A minority government keeps parties like the Reform-Cons from doing some really batshit insane things. Plus it makes for some entertaining television. Unfortunately it also stalls the government on pushing through good and decent bills, and pretty well means were guaranteed more elections then we need.
Unfortunately with Dion having all the charisma of a cantaloupe, I'm worried that we are going to end up with a Conservative majority.
This. This is why I like our political system. A minority government keeps parties like the Reform-Cons from doing some really batshit insane things. Plus it makes for some entertaining television. Unfortunately it also stalls the government on pushing through good and decent bills, and pretty well means were guaranteed more elections then we need.
Unfortunately with Dion having all the charisma of a cantaloupe, I'm worried that we are going to end up with a Conservative majority.
Ignatieff is still pretty terrible, look up any of Rick Mercer's comments on the guy and he pretty much gets heaped with scorn for relatively good reason.
I know it's popular to see Ignatieff as some kind of crypto-fascist, but I kind of like him (voted for him in the leadership race two years ago). He's my kind of liberal - socially liberal and an internationalist.
But if Dion can keep the party together through this election and make a good case for the Liberals (even if he doesn't get a minority government) all is forgiven. Though I guess it's kind of sad that all I can do is hope he doesn't wreck the party.
The sad thing is that Dion is not a bad candidate. He's just unimpressive and boring. And as someone mentioned, he's got all the charisma of a cantaloupe.
The sad thing is that Dion is not a bad candidate. He's just unimpressive and boring. And as someone mentioned, he's got all the charisma of a cantaloupe.
The Green Shift is a pretty decent policy, and the few times I saw him promoting it were the first times I ever saw him really come alive and engaging. He's literally our Al Gore - all policy, no inspiration.
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SerpentSometimes Vancouver, BC, sometimes Brisbane, QLDRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
A similar tax to the 'green shift' is out in BC and is pretty unpopular.
Considering my Conservative MP is a fucking shithead
I think that is the general consensus about most of the Conservative MPs... except Jim Prentice, who is actually pretty cool. Would have been nice if he had won the party leadership over Harper, but he's not enough of a social conservative...
I must be the only person in BC who likes the carbon tax.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
Any chance that you Americans will loan Barack to us for a little while so we can vote for him?
I was originally for the liberals, but ever since Chretien left the party's been one gigantic clusterfuck of ineptitude. So I looked at the NDP and was alright with them for a while, but their CAW bloc plus some rather unreponsiveness on some issues (even if they champion for some issues I like, for instance, the Copyright Bill recently) is making me like them less.
I'd consider the Green Party, but I'm uncomfortable supporting a party who is so centered on one issue and one issue only. They also neglect any mention of their stance on Nuclear power (all the parties seem to, which pisses me off) aside from their bloggers being apeshit NIMBY, and their use of 'Fair Tax' on their policy listings on their website makes me cringe.
So, yeah. Way to go Canadian political system for getting me excited about our politics. Woo.
Edit: On second reading, the Green Party wants to phase out all nuclear power. So yea, no support for me on that one.
You should try following Québec politics. I can't vote for any of our three parties without feeling like I need to shower and scrub for 18 days straight.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Ignatieff is still pretty terrible, look up any of Rick Mercer's comments on the guy and he pretty much gets heaped with scorn for relatively good reason.
I know it's popular to see Ignatieff as some kind of crypto-fascist, but I kind of like him (voted for him in the leadership race two years ago). He's my kind of liberal - socially liberal and an internationalist.
But if Dion can keep the party together through this election and make a good case for the Liberals (even if he doesn't get a minority government) all is forgiven. Though I guess it's kind of sad that all I can do is hope he doesn't wreck the party.
I don't think Ignatieff is crypto-fascist I just think he looks like he would make an ineffective gaffe-prone prime minister. Like Stephane Dion but slightly less boring. I don't really want either representing Canada on the international stage.
Yeah it is. I'll be happy if Stephane and the NDP manage to prevent the Conservatives from getting a majority through.
The sad thing is that Dion is not a bad candidate. He's just unimpressive and boring. And as someone mentioned, he's got all the charisma of a cantaloupe.
Yes, and Stephen Harper is just so exciting and charismatic.
The sad thing is that Dion is not a bad candidate. He's just unimpressive and boring. And as someone mentioned, he's got all the charisma of a cantaloupe.
Yes, and Stephen Harper is just so exciting and charismatic.
I don't think he mentioned Harper
But yes, overall Canadian politics is as bland as white beard right now (pun?)
I really have trouble seeing the Green Shift as anything other than wealth redistribution under the guise of environmentalism. It's a $15-16 billion dollar tax when up and running and is designed to have a "significant reduction" in greenhouse gas emissions. So 5%, 10%, 20%? No estimate whatsoever? Awesome.
The national energy program back in the 80s was sold as a way to make Canada self sufficient in terms of oil. Later, Trudeau's energy minister Marc Lalonde admitted the whole plan was just designed to take money out of Alberta and move it to vote rich central Canada. "The major factor behind the NEP wasn't Canadianization or getting more from the industry or even self-sufficiency. The determinant factor was the fiscal imbalance between the provinces and the federal government. Our proposal was to increase Ottawa's share appreciably, so that the share of the producing provinces would decline significantly and the industry's share would decline somewhat."
The green shift is estimated to put 40% of the tax burden on the 13% of the population that is located in Alberta and Saskatchewan. Quebec's energy production, being mainly hydro-electric, will be untaxed. It's also fortunate for Quebec that non-fossil fuel based sources of green house gas emissions are untaxed.
Even Liberal MF Ken Boshcoff said, "The Liberal Party’s Green Shift announced on June 19th marked the most aggressive anti-poverty program in 40 years. The ‘shift’ will transfer wealth from rich to poor, from the oil patch to the rest of the country, and from the coffers of big business to the pockets of low-income Canadians."
I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
Xbox - PearlBlueS0ul, Steam
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
I just moved last year from Quebec to Alberta and learned that if you say that you thought the NEP was not such a bad idea you will get spit at.
The other day, this truck driver I was working with near Edmonton looks at my car with its Ontario license plate, and instantly goes on some huge retarded rant about how everyone from Ontario is coming over and "fucking everything up and voting liberal". Nevermind that I would probably vote conservative anyways (heres hoping for another minority); he was a tool.
It's premised on basic economics - as the price of carbon emissions goes up, demand will go down. When there is a price attached to their pollution firms will cut back on waste or invest in cleaner technologies which will reduce their emissions and in turn reduce their tax burden.
Yes, it does have a substantial wealth redistribution aspect to it, because that's necessary for it to work. However, its redistributional effects are only noteworthy because the other party with a similar plan - the NDP - has decided to ignore the blatantly obvious, that this will increase consumer prices, and make no allowances for this (instead Layton just blathers about "making the corporations pay").
Any tax that increase prices is generally regressive and effects lower-income earners most. To make the Green Shift work while not hurting lower-income earners it needs to be accompanied by tax breaks for the lowest brackets and increased cash transfers.
I will admit though that the NEP was a terrible plan and just flew in the face of basic economic sense.
Considering my Conservative MP is a fucking shithead
I think that is the general consensus about most of the Conservative MPs... except Jim Prentice, who is actually pretty cool. Would have been nice if he had won the party leadership over Harper, but he's not enough of a social conservative...
Hey, I just saw a recap on the news tonight of Williams' press conference about the cuts in funding for the arts. Awesome. I really, really hope this finally means that Conservatives Manning, Hearn and Doyle are out this election - seeing how they'll have the local "conservative" party campaigning against the lot of them.
I will be a typical American by not reading any of the OP's background on Canadian politics, but instead demand the title of this thread be changed to "Cold Country For Old White Men".
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
I don't overly mind the Green Shift, even if just for something to be considered on a national stage that works at putting the focus more on the environment along with some economic frameworks. I just can't help but see Alberta's massive oil boom (however positive it might be for the economies of the individual provinces affected by it) as being potentially counterproductive to any meaningful impact on getting our emissions down and economies focused more at sustainable development.
It's going to be nigh on impossible for the federal Conservatives to hold on to their seats here in Newfoundland. Love for Danny isn't total, but if he campaigns against them, it's going to get nasty here (not that it already isn't). It would be nice if the rest of Atlantic Canada got onboard, because this government has done nothing for us out here. Christ, it still pisses me off that they don't have the balls to tell the people up in Goose Bay (where I am from), that they aren't going to do anything with the military there. I can't wait to hear them continue to promise an increased military presence there... bullshit!
I just moved last year from Quebec to Alberta and learned that if you say that you thought the NEP was not such a bad idea you will get spit at.
The other day, this truck driver I was working with near Edmonton looks at my car with its Ontario license plate, and instantly goes on some huge retarded rant about how everyone from Ontario is coming over and "fucking everything up and voting liberal". Nevermind that I would probably vote conservative anyways (heres hoping for another minority); he was a tool.
I lived out in Alberta for a couple of years, and their hatred for people from Ontario is borderline retarded. Seriously, it's like some strange and scary complex. I would generally get interesting comments from people because I was from Newfoundland, but that was always couched in phrases such as 'hard workers' and the like. People from Ontario got no such luxury.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
On the subject of the Greens not supporting nuclear power:
I have a friend who works raising awareness of Canada's fresh water problems, and combating myths about how we have the world's largest supply etc, and she would be fine with nuclear power except for the fact that the massive amount of water used in such plants would come from the Great Lakes, which are a non-renewable water source, since it's glacier water. A lot of environmentalists don't support nuclear power because of water issues, rather than any fears of nuclear explosions or nuclear waste.
On the subject of the Greens not supporting nuclear power:
I have a friend who works raising awareness of Canada's fresh water problems, and combating myths about how we have the world's largest supply etc, and she would be fine with nuclear power except for the fact that the massive amount of water used in such plants would come from the Great Lakes, which are a non-renewable water source, since it's glacier water. A lot of environmentalists don't support nuclear power because of water issues, rather than any fears of nuclear explosions or nuclear waste.
I have never heard this point being brought up in the discussion of Nuclear Energy before, source if possible?
I am intrigued by the Green Shift. However, the Liberals have done a piss-poor job of explaining any of it, at all. Here in Quebec they sent a crappy little pamphlet about it and it did not explain it at all in anything but the most juvenile, pandering terms. They even made fun of the Conservatives with some silly picture that I don't remember anymore. If they had ever made an honest, mature effort to explain the Green Shift, I think a lot of people (Albertans excluded) would be interested.
Although I doubt how many people in Canada really care about environment issues that much. Everyone talks the talk, but very few are actually prepared to walk the walk. I mean, we're probably the biggest hypocrites in the world on the environment. Even the US seems to do more about it.
I am intrigued by the Green Shift. However, the Liberals have done a piss-poor job of explaining any of it, at all.
Seriously.
Back when it was announced all they talked about was campaigning hard throughout the summer to promote it to Canadians - but I've hardly heard anything out of them. Then again, the party is broke at the moment.
I am intrigued by the Green Shift. However, the Liberals have done a piss-poor job of explaining any of it, at all.
Seriously.
Back when it was announced all they talked about was campaigning hard throughout the summer to promote it to Canadians - but I've hardly heard anything out of them. Then again, the party is broke at the moment.
Honestly, my knowledge of Stephen consists of the "This is unfair" Conservative Attack ad.
Posts
I do not find the atmosphere ruined.
Seriously, though, it is important for people to realise that their single vote actually does matter for their party of choice, even if they know their party stands no chance of winning that particular race.
As it is, I'm expecting status quo. Hopefully Dion steps down and Ignatieff or somebody not-terrible becomes Liberal leader.
Paul Martin was stronger than anyone the liberals have currently running in their midst in terms of prime-ministeryness... akthough he was a terrible campaigner (imho). I think its sort of a pity his liberals didn't form another government.
Sorry Greens, but the Libs have years of experience successfully managing a deceitful, corrupt organization, which pretty much defines the political system.
I think we'll see another Conservative minority though, unless Dion somehow develops a personality and runs a strong campaign. As others have mentioned, I fear the idea of a Conservative majority.... though I am not bothered by having them in a minority situation.
This. This is why I like our political system. A minority government keeps parties like the Reform-Cons from doing some really batshit insane things. Plus it makes for some entertaining television. Unfortunately it also stalls the government on pushing through good and decent bills, and pretty well means were guaranteed more elections then we need.
Unfortunately with Dion having all the charisma of a cantaloupe, I'm worried that we are going to end up with a Conservative majority.
I never finish anyth
Man.
Thats kind of mean to cantaloupes.
Hehehe. I wonder how long he practiced to get it out right :P
But if Dion can keep the party together through this election and make a good case for the Liberals (even if he doesn't get a minority government) all is forgiven. Though I guess it's kind of sad that all I can do is hope he doesn't wreck the party.
If BC doesn't like it, who will?
I think it's great.
Though I was never planning to vote Conservative anyway, I just thought I'd point that out.
I think that is the general consensus about most of the Conservative MPs... except Jim Prentice, who is actually pretty cool. Would have been nice if he had won the party leadership over Harper, but he's not enough of a social conservative...
I was originally for the liberals, but ever since Chretien left the party's been one gigantic clusterfuck of ineptitude. So I looked at the NDP and was alright with them for a while, but their CAW bloc plus some rather unreponsiveness on some issues (even if they champion for some issues I like, for instance, the Copyright Bill recently) is making me like them less.
I'd consider the Green Party, but I'm uncomfortable supporting a party who is so centered on one issue and one issue only. They also neglect any mention of their stance on Nuclear power (all the parties seem to, which pisses me off) aside from their bloggers being apeshit NIMBY, and their use of 'Fair Tax' on their policy listings on their website makes me cringe.
So, yeah. Way to go Canadian political system for getting me excited about our politics. Woo.
Edit: On second reading, the Green Party wants to phase out all nuclear power. So yea, no support for me on that one.
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Yes, but watching it on Radio-Canada, your politicians seem so much more animated.
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I don't think Ignatieff is crypto-fascist I just think he looks like he would make an ineffective gaffe-prone prime minister. Like Stephane Dion but slightly less boring. I don't really want either representing Canada on the international stage.
Yeah it is. I'll be happy if Stephane and the NDP manage to prevent the Conservatives from getting a majority through.
In eight years. Only he'll look like he's 65 and he'll be really tired out.
We'll take that...
I don't think he mentioned Harper
But yes, overall Canadian politics is as bland as white beard right now (pun?)
The national energy program back in the 80s was sold as a way to make Canada self sufficient in terms of oil. Later, Trudeau's energy minister Marc Lalonde admitted the whole plan was just designed to take money out of Alberta and move it to vote rich central Canada. "The major factor behind the NEP wasn't Canadianization or getting more from the industry or even self-sufficiency. The determinant factor was the fiscal imbalance between the provinces and the federal government. Our proposal was to increase Ottawa's share appreciably, so that the share of the producing provinces would decline significantly and the industry's share would decline somewhat."
The green shift is estimated to put 40% of the tax burden on the 13% of the population that is located in Alberta and Saskatchewan. Quebec's energy production, being mainly hydro-electric, will be untaxed. It's also fortunate for Quebec that non-fossil fuel based sources of green house gas emissions are untaxed.
Even Liberal MF Ken Boshcoff said, "The Liberal Party’s Green Shift announced on June 19th marked the most aggressive anti-poverty program in 40 years. The ‘shift’ will transfer wealth from rich to poor, from the oil patch to the rest of the country, and from the coffers of big business to the pockets of low-income Canadians."
The Green Shift isn't an environmental program.
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
The other day, this truck driver I was working with near Edmonton looks at my car with its Ontario license plate, and instantly goes on some huge retarded rant about how everyone from Ontario is coming over and "fucking everything up and voting liberal". Nevermind that I would probably vote conservative anyways (heres hoping for another minority); he was a tool.
Yes, it does have a substantial wealth redistribution aspect to it, because that's necessary for it to work. However, its redistributional effects are only noteworthy because the other party with a similar plan - the NDP - has decided to ignore the blatantly obvious, that this will increase consumer prices, and make no allowances for this (instead Layton just blathers about "making the corporations pay").
Any tax that increase prices is generally regressive and effects lower-income earners most. To make the Green Shift work while not hurting lower-income earners it needs to be accompanied by tax breaks for the lowest brackets and increased cash transfers.
I will admit though that the NEP was a terrible plan and just flew in the face of basic economic sense.
Hey, I just saw a recap on the news tonight of Williams' press conference about the cuts in funding for the arts. Awesome. I really, really hope this finally means that Conservatives Manning, Hearn and Doyle are out this election - seeing how they'll have the local "conservative" party campaigning against the lot of them.
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It's going to be nigh on impossible for the federal Conservatives to hold on to their seats here in Newfoundland. Love for Danny isn't total, but if he campaigns against them, it's going to get nasty here (not that it already isn't). It would be nice if the rest of Atlantic Canada got onboard, because this government has done nothing for us out here. Christ, it still pisses me off that they don't have the balls to tell the people up in Goose Bay (where I am from), that they aren't going to do anything with the military there. I can't wait to hear them continue to promise an increased military presence there... bullshit!
I lived out in Alberta for a couple of years, and their hatred for people from Ontario is borderline retarded. Seriously, it's like some strange and scary complex. I would generally get interesting comments from people because I was from Newfoundland, but that was always couched in phrases such as 'hard workers' and the like. People from Ontario got no such luxury.
Wow, grats to them.
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I have a friend who works raising awareness of Canada's fresh water problems, and combating myths about how we have the world's largest supply etc, and she would be fine with nuclear power except for the fact that the massive amount of water used in such plants would come from the Great Lakes, which are a non-renewable water source, since it's glacier water. A lot of environmentalists don't support nuclear power because of water issues, rather than any fears of nuclear explosions or nuclear waste.
I have never heard this point being brought up in the discussion of Nuclear Energy before, source if possible?
Although I doubt how many people in Canada really care about environment issues that much. Everyone talks the talk, but very few are actually prepared to walk the walk. I mean, we're probably the biggest hypocrites in the world on the environment. Even the US seems to do more about it.
Back when it was announced all they talked about was campaigning hard throughout the summer to promote it to Canadians - but I've hardly heard anything out of them. Then again, the party is broke at the moment.
Honestly, my knowledge of Stephen consists of the "This is unfair" Conservative Attack ad.