Meh. Last time I gave a comic more than two issues it was All-Star Batman, and that was painful; if it picks up, let me know eh? I'll give each new guy a chance, 'cos, well like you say, War Journal?, but I'm not optimistic. I mean, I wasn't even expecting much from this arc; just a little more of the same sort of style, y'know?
All-Star Batman is the greatest work to be produced in the medium you philistine
If being a philistine means enjoying readable, coherent stories, then yes, I'm a philistine.
natxcross on
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
Yeah. They get to pick and choose what MK and MAX stories get incorporated, but War Journal is undoubtedly the 616 Punisher.
Anyway, I think the idea that Frank hasn't killed an innocent is as ridonculous as during WWH when it was determined that Banner-Hulk managed to never kill anyone. Anyway, for those of you who cum all over themselves at how great Ennis is, there is a sequel to Welcome Back, Frank coming out in December. I thought it was telling that his interview in CBR about it ended with, "If you want to date it more specifically, there's 'Brokeback Mountain' gags in it."
I don't particularly like Ennis (which I've made clear before), or much of Punisher in retrospect. You could say the same thing about Manhunter doing an arc that is also about the women who disappeared around Juarez. That doesn't make the actual stories anything alike. And nothing I've read indicates that Hurwitz is writing anything like the Jigsaw arc in PWJ.
I know PWJ and Max aren't directly tied together, but PWJ just did a Jigsaw arc. And he
freaking died at the end of it.
I have some issues with their timing.
Now I could see tying Max and Knights together, but don't tie War Journal to Max. I won't have a problem with Jigsaw until I see it play out, although I was liking that the majority of the encounters in both Knights and Max were original characters. We'll see how this goes when it comes to that.
yeah, that was more my point with the "frank kills an innocent" plotline. it's not that i'm against it or something, it's that it just happened in war journal.
Servo on
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
I know PWJ and Max aren't directly tied together, but PWJ just did a Jigsaw arc. And he
freaking died at the end of it.
I have some issues with their timing.
Now I could see tying Max and Knights together, but don't tie War Journal to Max. I won't have a problem with Jigsaw until I see it play out, although I was liking that the majority of the encounters in both Knights and Max were original characters. We'll see how this goes when it comes to that.
yeah, that was more my point with the "frank kills an innocent" plotline. it's not that i'm against it or something, it's that it just happened in war journal.
Wait, so both plotlines just happened?! Goddamnit.
Anyway, for those of you who cum all over themselves at how great Ennis is, there is a sequel to Welcome Back, Frank coming out in December. I thought it was telling that his interview in CBR about it ended with, "If you want to date it more specifically, there's 'Brokeback Mountain' gags in it."
Ennis' run on MK Punisher (which is the universe the sequel to Welcome Back, Frank is set in) and his run on MAX Punisher are totally different in tone. Don't use his affinity for juvenile humour when writing MK Punisher as some kind of slight against the greatness that was his MAX run.
Now wait
While I love the MAX run, it wasn't the end all be all of great comics
How many times can you do a "Frank kills the mafia/terrorists / generals fuck shit up" story
I like the idea of "let me do a longform story, five years in the making" but come on already
I think that with the right writer on it it could be better
If you got a good crime novelist, like they're trying now, I really think that they could top it
It would be hard, but not impossible
I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be the end-all be-all of great Punisher comics, though
Quoted for Truth.
I don't think Ennis can write everything ever, but he's really got a good handle on the Punisher. I also don't think that he's so amazing that no one can top him, I'm just saying it's going to be tough. And no, so far, the new guy is worrying me more than he's making me interested. I thought I read somewhere that this first new writer was going to be the guy who did the "Little Black Book" one-shot, which I liked. Now I go back and look, and it's different people and it's leaving me saying "what happened?"
I can't believe it, but I agree with Wiggins. Punisher is not "great". It's a fairly well-written book that stands out for being uncompromising. But it's pretty one-note. Although that is the problem with Punisher in general. I find it amusing and more interesting that the one unifier throughout Fraction's run on PWJ is Frank's relationship to Rhino.
In the end, Ennis' Punisher reminds me of why I've generally hated Wolverine. For as much as I can enjoy senseless violence, there's no point. At least Fraction was up front about the fact that Frank is a gun, and Jigsaw was all about someone pointing that gun in the direction that they want it to go. But it's funny how people seem to be concerned that he killed an innocent under duress in Mexico (btw, it happened a year ago. Which isn't exactly "just happened" given everything else that's come to pass in PWJ since then) and yet it has barely been mentioned since and doesn't come to a head as far as Clarke finding out until the SI tie-ins next month.
But guess what. Frank sees the dead kid on literally the last page. The last panel. So exactly how does this qualify you to decide fuck-all about what is going to happen next? I'm not presupposing anything except to say this: Hurwitz is a better author than Ennis. So if nothing else, I expect Frank to seem less like the Mary Sue Ennis created.
Crimsondude on
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
I can't believe it, but I agree with Wiggins. Punisher is not "great". It's a fairly well-written book that stands out for being uncompromising. But it's pretty one-note. Although that is the problem with Punisher in general. I find it amusing and more interesting that the one unifier throughout Fraction's run on PWJ is Frank's relationship to Rhino.
In the end, Ennis' Punisher reminds me of why I've generally hated Wolverine. For as much as I can enjoy senseless violence, there's no point. At least Fraction was up front about the fact that Frank is a gun, and Jigsaw was all about someone pointing that gun in the direction that they want it to go. But it's funny how people seem to be concerned that he killed an innocent under duress in Mexico (btw, it happened a year ago. Which isn't exactly "just happened" given everything else that's come to pass in PWJ since then) and yet it has barely been mentioned since and doesn't come to a head as far as Clarke finding out until the SI tie-ins next month.
But guess what. Frank sees the dead kid on literally the last page. The last panel. So exactly how does this qualify you to decide fuck-all about what is going to happen next? I'm not presupposing anything except to say this: Hurwitz is a better author than Ennis. So if nothing else, I expect Frank to seem less like the Mary Sue Ennis created.
I think we've established that most of us who are fans are still in "wait-and-see" mode.
And really, it'll never help your criticisms seem credible or constructive at all to drop words like "Mary Sue" which you know full well will always mean "character I don't like". That's the only consistent way it gets used.
I understand why you see Frank as a one-note character, but to the people who enjoy the comic, he's just a pure character. He's an unchanging machine while the complexity comes from the original characters and situations created around him. This is the reason we get worried when we see such a drastic shift toward the opposite of that the SECOND someone else takes over. I'm not against adding more depth to the character itself, but not if it makes the book no fun to read anymore.
It's not even a problem with the character
You can write the character and the stories differently, we're seeing that now
Ennis wrote stories where Frank killed shit. End of story
Who he was killing and why was secondary to the actual killing
That gets boring
I have a feeling this new novelist tack they're on is going to yield some good shit
ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
Who he was killing and why was secondary to the actual killing
That's not even remotely true. The who and why was always in the forefront. If that's boring to you, that's cool, I'm not going to argue an opinion. But I think you're being unfair to the storytelling. It's formulaic, but well executed. It's the same reason House is entertaining. Strong, improbably consistent (nearly infallible) main character. Same thing happens pretty much every episode, but it's always well done. If it's not your kind of storytelling, that's fine, but it's not bad storytelling.
It's not even a problem with the character
You can write the character and the stories differently, we're seeing that now
Ennis wrote stories where Frank killed shit. End of story
Who he was killing and why was secondary to the actual killing
That gets boring
I have a feeling this new novelist tack they're on is going to yield some good shit
That's a grotesque simplification of Ennis's MAX Punisher run. His stories were as much about the consequences of violence (on both victims and those who perpetrate violence) as much as the violence itself.
Doesn't change the fact that I still think these next few arcs are going to be a lot better and you people need to grow a pair and accept change, or drop the book
Doesn't change the fact that I still think these next few arcs are going to be a lot better and you people need to grow a pair and accept change, or drop the book
It wasn't meant to: it was meant to point out that your (and crimsondudes) description of Ennis's run was incorrect.
Change is fine, and Ennis had said pretty much everything he wanted with the character to say so great: bring on the new guys. I'll still be buying the book (in trades) and looking forward to it.
Anyway, I read through the comics I mentioned picking up, and all of them were awesome. Definately getting volume 2 (and beyond, were possible) for Atomic Robo, Invincible and Brit.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
Anyway, I read through the comics I mentioned picking up, and all of them were awesome. Definately getting volume 2 (and beyond, were possible) for Atomic Robo, Invincible and Brit.
The little bit I've seen of Atomic Robo looks pretty cool, I'm gonna have to check it out. And Brit is another Kirkman one, isn't it? I should just say screw it and start getting all of his. I like Invincible and Walking Dead, and the things I've heard about his other books sound like I'll like those too.
Anyway, I read through the comics I mentioned picking up, and all of them were awesome. Definately getting volume 2 (and beyond, where possible) for Atomic Robo, Invincible and Brit.
The little bit I've seen of Atomic Robo looks pretty cool, I'm gonna have to check it out. And Brit is another Kirkman one, isn't it? I should just say screw it and start getting all of his. I like Invincible and Walking Dead, and the things I've heard about his other books sound like I'll like those too.
Yup, Kirkman is involved with both Brit and Invincible.
My only exposure to Brit prior to this was a few shots (apparently from volume 2) in the images/moments thread, which I loved, and the first trade didn't disappoint me. I know very little about Invincible (though I've had a few of the big twists spoiled already, inadvertantly, mind you) and really enjoyed the first trade as well. I have neighbors that have the whole series, so I think I'll borrow from them to catch up and order the trades in slowly as cash permits.
Atomic Robo is really damned funny, and I re-read it over the weekend and enjoyed it just as much. The style of humour is very similar to Clevinger's 8-Bit Theater work, and I love that series, so it doesn't surprise me that I enjoyed Atomic Robo as much as I did. Aside from the humour and the art style, I liked how the narrative was laid out, particularly the bit with the letter exchange.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
0
Sars_BoyRest, You Are The Lightning.Registered Userregular
It's not even a problem with the character
You can write the character and the stories differently, we're seeing that now
Ennis wrote stories where Frank killed shit. End of story
Who he was killing and why was secondary to the actual killing
That gets boring
I have a feeling this new novelist tack they're on is going to yield some good shit
that's totally not the case. the punisher max run was about real-life violence (for the most part) and the effects it has on the victims and the perpetrators. they were repetitive only in the most boiled-down sense, that there were bad guys and frank killed them.
in the details, the story really weaves in and around the concept of violence and how the perpetrators eventually become addicted to it (the people like rawlins, barracuda, o'brien, zakharov, frank himself even) and how the victims, once exposed, almost never escape the cycle.
the widowmaker arc is, i think, a keystone in the run. in that arc you see the consequences of both the violence that frank has inflicted on the world and the violence he's inflicted on himself. he's become more or less a monster, a fact of which he is fully cognizant. in fact, when you read the whole series you end up coming across a lot of times he says something along the lines of "if you haven't seen it before, you don't want to". widowmaker also has frank dwelling a lot on his actions in the slavers arc (probably the high water mark in terms of violence in the series, and perhaps coincidentally the best arc in the series.) and how even he can't and doesn't want to keep up that level of savagery. on the flip side, though, is the character of Jenny, displaying the same desire for punishment that frank expresses, but without the willpower to follow it through to its logical conclusion. indeed, the arc also highlights much of what frank has sacrificed in his mission. "the only thing I'm good for is holding them while they die."
not to mention barracuda! easily the best "supervillain" frank has ever faced (waaaaay better than, say, jigsaw), barracuda's (obviously) a dark mirror into frank himself. all of frank's musings throughout the long cold dark arc are meditations on this subject. that's not even counting the incredible first issue with frank's dream sequence and the excellent reveal of frank's new child.
basically, claiming that every arc is nothing but frank killing people is...well, missing the point. of course every arc of a punisher comic involves him killing people. that's the whole deal. but do you really think that the slavers arc handled crime and killing in the same way as, say, the barracuda arc? or the widowmaker arc, in which frank was in fact bedridden for almost the entire story?
incidentally, you say that "who he was killing and why was secondary to the actual killing". do you remember the people you don't see frank kill? like rawlins, or zakharov?
tl:dr- the max series involved real-life violence and crime in an unprecedented way for a mainstream superhero comic and functioned as a meditation on violence, the effect it has on its perpetrators and victims, and the concepts of catharsis and vengeance vs. punisherment.
Servo on
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
Posts
If being a philistine means enjoying readable, coherent stories, then yes, I'm a philistine.
When they release those Marvel Secret Files or whatever they are they reference Punisher taking down Irish terrorists and fighting a slaving ring.
Anyway, I think the idea that Frank hasn't killed an innocent is as ridonculous as during WWH when it was determined that Banner-Hulk managed to never kill anyone. Anyway, for those of you who cum all over themselves at how great Ennis is, there is a sequel to Welcome Back, Frank coming out in December. I thought it was telling that his interview in CBR about it ended with, "If you want to date it more specifically, there's 'Brokeback Mountain' gags in it."
I don't particularly like Ennis (which I've made clear before), or much of Punisher in retrospect. You could say the same thing about Manhunter doing an arc that is also about the women who disappeared around Juarez. That doesn't make the actual stories anything alike. And nothing I've read indicates that Hurwitz is writing anything like the Jigsaw arc in PWJ.
yeah, that was more my point with the "frank kills an innocent" plotline. it's not that i'm against it or something, it's that it just happened in war journal.
Wait, so both plotlines just happened?! Goddamnit.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
Ennis' run on MK Punisher (which is the universe the sequel to Welcome Back, Frank is set in) and his run on MAX Punisher are totally different in tone. Don't use his affinity for juvenile humour when writing MK Punisher as some kind of slight against the greatness that was his MAX run.
While I love the MAX run, it wasn't the end all be all of great comics
How many times can you do a "Frank kills the mafia/terrorists / generals fuck shit up" story
I like the idea of "let me do a longform story, five years in the making" but come on already
If you got a good crime novelist, like they're trying now, I really think that they could top it
It would be hard, but not impossible
Quoted for Truth.
I don't think Ennis can write everything ever, but he's really got a good handle on the Punisher. I also don't think that he's so amazing that no one can top him, I'm just saying it's going to be tough. And no, so far, the new guy is worrying me more than he's making me interested. I thought I read somewhere that this first new writer was going to be the guy who did the "Little Black Book" one-shot, which I liked. Now I go back and look, and it's different people and it's leaving me saying "what happened?"
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
In the end, Ennis' Punisher reminds me of why I've generally hated Wolverine. For as much as I can enjoy senseless violence, there's no point. At least Fraction was up front about the fact that Frank is a gun, and Jigsaw was all about someone pointing that gun in the direction that they want it to go. But it's funny how people seem to be concerned that he killed an innocent under duress in Mexico (btw, it happened a year ago. Which isn't exactly "just happened" given everything else that's come to pass in PWJ since then) and yet it has barely been mentioned since and doesn't come to a head as far as Clarke finding out until the SI tie-ins next month.
But guess what. Frank sees the dead kid on literally the last page. The last panel. So exactly how does this qualify you to decide fuck-all about what is going to happen next? I'm not presupposing anything except to say this: Hurwitz is a better author than Ennis. So if nothing else, I expect Frank to seem less like the Mary Sue Ennis created.
I think we've established that most of us who are fans are still in "wait-and-see" mode.
And really, it'll never help your criticisms seem credible or constructive at all to drop words like "Mary Sue" which you know full well will always mean "character I don't like". That's the only consistent way it gets used.
I understand why you see Frank as a one-note character, but to the people who enjoy the comic, he's just a pure character. He's an unchanging machine while the complexity comes from the original characters and situations created around him. This is the reason we get worried when we see such a drastic shift toward the opposite of that the SECOND someone else takes over. I'm not against adding more depth to the character itself, but not if it makes the book no fun to read anymore.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
You can write the character and the stories differently, we're seeing that now
Ennis wrote stories where Frank killed shit. End of story
Who he was killing and why was secondary to the actual killing
That gets boring
I have a feeling this new novelist tack they're on is going to yield some good shit
That's not even remotely true. The who and why was always in the forefront. If that's boring to you, that's cool, I'm not going to argue an opinion. But I think you're being unfair to the storytelling. It's formulaic, but well executed. It's the same reason House is entertaining. Strong, improbably consistent (nearly infallible) main character. Same thing happens pretty much every episode, but it's always well done. If it's not your kind of storytelling, that's fine, but it's not bad storytelling.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
I got nothing against formulaic stories
Just not when they're THAT formulaic
That's a grotesque simplification of Ennis's MAX Punisher run. His stories were as much about the consequences of violence (on both victims and those who perpetrate violence) as much as the violence itself.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
It wasn't meant to: it was meant to point out that your (and crimsondudes) description of Ennis's run was incorrect.
Change is fine, and Ennis had said pretty much everything he wanted with the character to say so great: bring on the new guys. I'll still be buying the book (in trades) and looking forward to it.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Also, just this close to being a haiku.
Anyway, I read through the comics I mentioned picking up, and all of them were awesome. Definately getting volume 2 (and beyond, were possible) for Atomic Robo, Invincible and Brit.
The little bit I've seen of Atomic Robo looks pretty cool, I'm gonna have to check it out. And Brit is another Kirkman one, isn't it? I should just say screw it and start getting all of his. I like Invincible and Walking Dead, and the things I've heard about his other books sound like I'll like those too.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
Yup, Kirkman is involved with both Brit and Invincible.
My only exposure to Brit prior to this was a few shots (apparently from volume 2) in the images/moments thread, which I loved, and the first trade didn't disappoint me. I know very little about Invincible (though I've had a few of the big twists spoiled already, inadvertantly, mind you) and really enjoyed the first trade as well. I have neighbors that have the whole series, so I think I'll borrow from them to catch up and order the trades in slowly as cash permits.
Atomic Robo is really damned funny, and I re-read it over the weekend and enjoyed it just as much. The style of humour is very similar to Clevinger's 8-Bit Theater work, and I love that series, so it doesn't surprise me that I enjoyed Atomic Robo as much as I did. Aside from the humour and the art style, I liked how the narrative was laid out, particularly the bit with the letter exchange.
he states his dumb ass backwards opinion
people tell him why it is dumb
and he jams his fingers in his ears and goes lalalalala
Fuck yourself with a sideways rake you prick
that's totally not the case. the punisher max run was about real-life violence (for the most part) and the effects it has on the victims and the perpetrators. they were repetitive only in the most boiled-down sense, that there were bad guys and frank killed them.
in the details, the story really weaves in and around the concept of violence and how the perpetrators eventually become addicted to it (the people like rawlins, barracuda, o'brien, zakharov, frank himself even) and how the victims, once exposed, almost never escape the cycle.
the widowmaker arc is, i think, a keystone in the run. in that arc you see the consequences of both the violence that frank has inflicted on the world and the violence he's inflicted on himself. he's become more or less a monster, a fact of which he is fully cognizant. in fact, when you read the whole series you end up coming across a lot of times he says something along the lines of "if you haven't seen it before, you don't want to". widowmaker also has frank dwelling a lot on his actions in the slavers arc (probably the high water mark in terms of violence in the series, and perhaps coincidentally the best arc in the series.) and how even he can't and doesn't want to keep up that level of savagery. on the flip side, though, is the character of Jenny, displaying the same desire for punishment that frank expresses, but without the willpower to follow it through to its logical conclusion. indeed, the arc also highlights much of what frank has sacrificed in his mission. "the only thing I'm good for is holding them while they die."
not to mention barracuda! easily the best "supervillain" frank has ever faced (waaaaay better than, say, jigsaw), barracuda's (obviously) a dark mirror into frank himself. all of frank's musings throughout the long cold dark arc are meditations on this subject. that's not even counting the incredible first issue with frank's dream sequence and the excellent reveal of frank's new child.
basically, claiming that every arc is nothing but frank killing people is...well, missing the point. of course every arc of a punisher comic involves him killing people. that's the whole deal. but do you really think that the slavers arc handled crime and killing in the same way as, say, the barracuda arc? or the widowmaker arc, in which frank was in fact bedridden for almost the entire story?
incidentally, you say that "who he was killing and why was secondary to the actual killing". do you remember the people you don't see frank kill? like rawlins, or zakharov?
tl:dr- the max series involved real-life violence and crime in an unprecedented way for a mainstream superhero comic and functioned as a meditation on violence, the effect it has on its perpetrators and victims, and the concepts of catharsis and vengeance vs. punisherment.