I would love to hear from somebody with a severe chronic condition (frequent chronic migraines, multiple sclerosis, etc).
I'd also love to hear from people with experiences in the French, German, Swiss, and Australian systems.
Also, UK & Canada folks: what's your effective average tax rate?
We get raped. On top of the basic rate being around 20%, on anything earned over £35k you pay 40%ish on, and thats just income tax. I simply don't bother working for more hours than £35k a year, out of principal and laziness.
So when I do the math based on this, the US-UK exchange rate, and the links Bob posted, I get a federal income tax rate of 19%.
Compared to my US federal income tax rate of 20%.
Hmmm...
It also looks like I'd pay 9.7% of my income for national insurance... compared to 7% for US Social Security plus Medicare. Hmmmmmmm....
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Having a chronic illness that doesn't result in full disability is absolutely fucking crippling to your ability to survive in the US. Especially when the cost of treatments is in the cost of $85,000(+!) a year. To me, that's just ridiculous. It's not so much the cost is that a lot of treatments and shit is completely overpriced in the medical field.
A syringe full of saline is about $80 (according to a Medic-aid/Medicare bill). Just one. If you or I bought that, it'd be probably $1. Treatments to pay doctors and nurses and surgeries, okay, I can understand that being expensive, but $80 for a syringe full of saline because you have to pay your superstar CEO $1,000,000 is just ridiculous. Our hospital is losing patients and nurses fast because of the stupid stuff they're doing now.
There is absolutely no reason for the overpricing of materials or procedures. I'm not sure how to fix it, but I'm sure if a CEO is getting that much, a lot of management probably is, and that seems like a nice place to start. By the way, the nurses here get paid $9/hr to start. There's a McDonald's in the area that gets $11/hr.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I would love to hear from somebody with a severe chronic condition (frequent chronic migraines, multiple sclerosis, etc).
I'd also love to hear from people with experiences in the French, German, Swiss, and Australian systems.
Also, UK & Canada folks: what's your effective average tax rate?
We get raped. On top of the basic rate being around 20%, on anything earned over £35k you pay 40%ish on, and thats just income tax. I simply don't bother working for more hours than £35k a year, out of principal and laziness.
You also pay tax on everything you purchase (Petrol has an added tax of around 75% I believe). We have national insurance which is also rape on top of income tax. Its very difficult to not get taxed on earnings outside of work unless you have mega mega bucks in which case you pay no tax because you'll have someone set you up some kind of off shore bank account deal.
This kinda takes the piss as the mega wealthy pay no tax, but anyone who does well for them self in any other kind of way is severely punished for it.
What a horrible punishment, being forced to contribute to the greater good of society.
What a horrible punishment, being forced to contribute to the greater good of society.
What have healthy people ever done for him anyway?
I have never had a problem paying my fair share, I just highly dispute what a fair share is.
You gain more than direct benefits from others getting medical services. And unless you're planning on killing yourself before fifty you'll be directly taking back your share anyway.
Having a chronic illness that doesn't result in full disability is absolutely fucking crippling to your ability to survive in the US.
I have one particular friend (originally from the US, now a UK citizen) who can't return to the US. The reason being that she came over here to study, and had a chronic condition diagnosed while she was here. If she returned to the US, she wouldn't be able to get health insurance to cover it, and couldn't afford to pay for the treatments out of any remotely achievable salary.
Having a chronic illness that doesn't result in full disability is absolutely fucking crippling to your ability to survive in the US.
I have one particular friend (originally from the US, now a UK citizen) who can't return to the US. The reason being that she came over here to study, and had a chronic condition diagnosed while she was here. If she returned to the US, she wouldn't be able to get health insurance to cover it, and couldn't afford to pay for the treatments out of any remotely achievable salary.
So her options are: Remain in the UK, or die.
The worst part comes after they fix what's wrong with you that immediately (or shortly after) throws you out of disability. Now you have to try and find health care that covers your condition (not likely) to help pay for that prescription that costs $100 per pill and you take 3 a day. (just one of many too)
Now your costs have jumped from $70Kish to $100Kish. Just from one pill. You've also got to pay it out of pocket too. Or hope some non-profit group helps.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
A frequent argument about healthcare in the US comes in the form, "Sure, they might have great healthcare in [insert country here] but did you know that they pay [insert obnoxiously high percentage here] of their income in taxes?"
You pay more taxes than I do. :P
Let's see, where did I hide those declaration papers... Ah yes. In 2002 (only papers I have available without digging more) I paid 30.25% income tax, plus 1.53% church taxes since I'm too lazy to tell the church that I hate them and don't want to be in their club.
Our Swedish healthcare? Well, I'm not exactly highly educated on how it works, but I've had no problems with it. The one time I've been hospitalized when I was around 15 due to tonsilectomy + abscess in the throat I got a room of my own and generally had a good experience.
Now your costs have jumped from $70Kish to $100Kish. Just from one pill. You've also got to pay it out of pocket too. Or hope some non-profit group helps.
Or.... quit your job, lose your home, live in abject poverty just to qualify for Medicaid.
What a horrible punishment, being forced to contribute to the greater good of society.
What have healthy people ever done for him anyway?
I have never had a problem paying my fair share, I just highly dispute what a fair share is.
You gain more than direct benefits from others getting medical services. And unless you're planning on killing yourself before fifty you'll be directly taking back your share anyway.
I agree completely that I gain benefits from having a healthy society, and I may well take some back if I reach old age, however.
Person A earns £235k a year, pays around £70k in tax on income tax alone.
Person B earns £20k a year, pays around £4k in tax on income alone.
Both get the exact same services from the NHS, throw in the idea that Person A is healthy and Person B smokes 20 fags a day. Is that fair, in my eyes its not.
(my math may be out as I am currently up to my eyeballs on painkillers after just having had my Tonsils taken out)
Now your costs have jumped from $70Kish to $100Kish. Just from one pill. You've also got to pay it out of pocket too. Or hope some non-profit group helps.
Or.... quit your job, lose your home, live in abject poverty just to qualify for Medicaid.
Which is why our healthcare system is broken. It goes hand-in-hand with our welfare system. You can't get support unless you don't want to work. But if you want to work, and you know, contribute, too fucking bad we're not going to help you.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Now your costs have jumped from $70Kish to $100Kish. Just from one pill. You've also got to pay it out of pocket too. Or hope some non-profit group helps.
Or.... quit your job, lose your home, live in abject poverty just to qualify for Medicaid.
Which is why our healthcare system is broken. It goes hand-in-hand with our welfare system. You can't get support unless you don't want to work. But if you want to work, and you know, contribute, too fucking bad we're not going to help you.
Right. And, if one were to have a job that offered health coverage, then he/she would be hard pressed to find a different job, open a small business, etc out of fear of losing said coverage. It sorta stifles upward mobility in our society, especially when a dude or lady has a family to support.
The best argument for socialised healthcare is the Help & Advice forum. It is fucking terrifying for a Briton to read. People make threads about being sick; having an infected bite; not being able to hear anymore.. and they can't go to the doctor because they don't have the money. When my American friend was over here, she went to the doctor like every week, just because she could.
I will have to agree with this. Most Germans consult at least their GP if they so much as sniffle slightly. There is absolutely no way in hell that I would want to switch to the US system. And I'm in good health, all appointments I had in the last...3 or 4 years or so were the 6 month checkup at the dentists.
Of course, the german system has its downs. As mentioned, we pay ridiculus amounts of taxes, and the federal budget is still not nearly balanced. In some areas (notably eastern germany), specialists can be hard to come by, though I have never heard of anyone seriously complaining about it. You get your appointment a few months down the line unless its serious, and thats that. Hospital Doctors work 24 hour shifts (or more) with no sleep on a regular basis and - according to them - aren't paid enough.
As far as chronical illnesses go, the most that they make you do is paying part of the medication costs, though its not even close to the numbers I see thrown around by some Americans for their treatments.
What a horrible punishment, being forced to contribute to the greater good of society.
What have healthy people ever done for him anyway?
I have never had a problem paying my fair share, I just highly dispute what a fair share is.
You gain more than direct benefits from others getting medical services. And unless you're planning on killing yourself before fifty you'll be directly taking back your share anyway.
I agree completely that I gain benefits from having a healthy society, and I may well take some back if I reach old age, however.
Person A earns £235k a year, pays around £70k in tax on income tax alone.
Person B earns £20k a year, pays around £4k in tax on income alone.
Both get the exact same services from the NHS, throw in the idea that Person A is healthy and Person B smokes 20 fags a day. Is that fair, in my eyes its not.
(my math may be out as I am currently up to my eyeballs on painkillers after just having had my Tonsils taken out)
I believe the traditional response is that person A is paying not entirely out of a sense of charity, but also because seeing the myriad examples of person B treated leads to greater social stability and safety for people like person A.
Now your costs have jumped from $70Kish to $100Kish. Just from one pill. You've also got to pay it out of pocket too. Or hope some non-profit group helps.
Or.... quit your job, lose your home, live in abject poverty just to qualify for Medicaid.
Which is why our healthcare system is broken. It goes hand-in-hand with our welfare system. You can't get support unless you don't want to work. But if you want to work, and you know, contribute, too fucking bad we're not going to help you.
Right. And, if one were to have a job that offered health coverage, then he/she would be hard pressed to find a different job, open a small business, etc out of fear of losing said coverage. It sorta stifles upward mobility in our society, especially when a dude or lady has a family to support.
It'd be nice to have health coverage without it being through my employment. Not sure why it's like the way it is, I mean it's great you can offer lower costs to the whole group but as soon as one person gets a mole lanced it goes up by rape dollars. Employment based health coverage makes perfect sense if everyone at your job is in perfect physical shape, eats healthy, and has no risk for any diseases, accidents, or anything like that. The minute cancer comes up, your whole company suffers to the point where the only thing covered is a doctors visit, if that.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Person A earns £235k a year, pays around £70k in tax on income tax alone.
Person B earns £20k a year, pays around £4k in tax on income alone.
Both get the exact same services from the NHS, throw in the idea that Person A is healthy and Person B smokes 20 fags a day. Is that fair, in my eyes its not.
It'd be nice to have health coverage without it being through my employment. Not sure why it's like the way it is, I mean it's great you can offer lower costs to the whole group but as soon as one person gets a mole lanced it goes up by rape dollars. Employment based health coverage makes perfect sense if everyone at your job is in perfect physical shape, eats healthy, and has no risk for any diseases, accidents, or anything like that. The minute cancer comes up, your whole company suffers to the point where the only thing covered is a doctors visit, if that.
How does it work for small companies with, say, 10 employees?
Echo on
0
Options
JohnnyCacheStarting DefensePlace at the tableRegistered Userregular
Yes. We get less for our tax dollars in the US. That mismanagement is what sucks, not the fact that we pay taxes.
I've started to suspect that lately: Americans don't like taxes because the government sucks at spending tax money properly. Sweden is supposed to have some of the highest taxes in the world, but we get damn good returns on it.
Yes. We get less for our tax dollars in the US. That mismanagement is what sucks, not the fact that we pay taxes.
I've started to suspect that lately: Americans don't like taxes because the government sucks at spending tax money properly. Sweden is supposed to have some of the highest taxes in the world, but we get damn good returns on it.
We see the US government as spending our tax dollars primarily on the following: war, the military, Israel and Congressional hookers.
It'd be nice to have health coverage without it being through my employment. Not sure why it's like the way it is, I mean it's great you can offer lower costs to the whole group but as soon as one person gets a mole lanced it goes up by rape dollars. Employment based health coverage makes perfect sense if everyone at your job is in perfect physical shape, eats healthy, and has no risk for any diseases, accidents, or anything like that. The minute cancer comes up, your whole company suffers to the point where the only thing covered is a doctors visit, if that.
How does it work for small companies with, say, 10 employees?
The premiums are relatively higher in SBA's and such. But it is actually less beneficial to have healthcare through a small business rather than buy it yourself in the eventuality that someone gets ill. I actually did that from the last place I worked. I paid $50 more per month on my personal care, but in 8 months someone got diagnosed with leukemia and their premiums jumped up to $20 more a month than mine in the following year. (5 employees)
I don't mean to steer this away from the topic, but it's somewhat applicable in community care, death benefits are a joke from the public sector too.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
0
Options
JohnnyCacheStarting DefensePlace at the tableRegistered Userregular
Yes. We get less for our tax dollars in the US. That mismanagement is what sucks, not the fact that we pay taxes.
I've started to suspect that lately: Americans don't like taxes because the government sucks at spending tax money properly. Sweden is supposed to have some of the highest taxes in the world, but we get damn good returns on it.
Our federal tax money goes into a void, basically. We get to live in the best-defended country on earth, but we're geophysical isolated from every threat but mexico. Quite a bit of it goes to unpopular federal law enforcement, and even when we spend where we should (ie education) we end up with clumsy shit like no child left behind.
Yes. We get less for our tax dollars in the US. That mismanagement is what sucks, not the fact that we pay taxes.
I've started to suspect that lately: Americans don't like taxes because the government sucks at spending tax money properly. Sweden is supposed to have some of the highest taxes in the world, but we get damn good returns on it.
Our federal tax money goes into a void, basically. We get to live in the best-defended country on earth, but we're geophysical isolated from every threat but mexico. Quite a bit of it goes to unpopular federal law enforcement, and even when we spend where we should (ie education) we end up with clumsy shit like no child left behind.
How do you solve the situation though? You'd need to rework the government in a major way.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Yes. We get less for our tax dollars in the US. That mismanagement is what sucks, not the fact that we pay taxes.
I've started to suspect that lately: Americans don't like taxes because the government sucks at spending tax money properly. Sweden is supposed to have some of the highest taxes in the world, but we get damn good returns on it.
Our federal tax money goes into a void, basically. We get to live in the best-defended country on earth, but we're geophysical isolated from every threat but mexico. Quite a bit of it goes to unpopular federal law enforcement, and even when we spend where we should (ie education) we end up with clumsy shit like no child left behind.
How do you solve the situation though? You'd need to rework the government in a major way.
Of course, the german system has its downs. As mentioned, we pay ridiculus amounts of taxes
How much?
Because apparently the UK's tax rate, described as "rape" by Willeh above, is comparable to what I pay here in the US.
Aren't they paying the VAT as well?
Let me think...I'm currently making less then 10k € a year, so I can't really comment on taxes. As far as I know income taxes are between 15 and 40% , depending on income. Plus VAT (19% for most things, groceries etc. are 7%), plus other consume tax (fun fact: the Kaiser raised taxes on sparkling wine to finance his fleet buildup in the 1900s. That tax is still in effect.), plus a flat tax of 7.5% of your income tax to finance the rebuilding of eastern germany, plus the various welfare, unemployment, retirement and healthcare insurance taxes (those differ from insurance company to insurance company, usually around 14%), taxation on dogs, on cars, on petrol...yeah. The Association fo german taxpayers estimates that the average german pays about 51% of his annual income in taxes.
I've misplaced the link to the academic paper but there was an exhaustive study done ranking approximately 20 western countries health services looking at all aspects of health care. the take home message for a Brit was that Britain has the worse acute/emergency care in the study group. America, on the other hand has the very best acute/emergency care.
However, the flipside of this is that Britain has the very, best preventative care of the nations studied. Britain spots and stops things early and cost effectively. Conversely America has the very, very worst preventative care with large numbers of patients passing undiagnosed through early easily treatable stages of illness into the acute care category.
Let me think...I'm currently making less then 10k € a year, so I can't really comment on taxes. As far as I know income taxes are between 15 and 40% , depending on income. Plus VAT (19% for most things, groceries etc. are 7%), plus other consume tax (fun fact: the Kaiser raised taxes on sparkling wine to finance his fleet buildup in the 1900s. That tax is still in effect.), plus a flat tax of 7.5% of your income tax to finance the rebuilding of eastern germany, plus the various welfare, unemployment, retirement and healthcare insurance taxes (those differ from insurance company to insurance company, usually around 14%), taxation on dogs, on cars, on petrol...yeah. The Association fo german taxpayers estimates that the average german pays about 51% of his annual income in taxes.
You get nailed with 7% tax on basics as well. Man, that's rough, at least in Britain some stuff (like food and children's clothes) has a 0% VAT rate.
BobCescaIs a girlBirmingham, UKRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
I forgot about the joyous 17.5% VAT. Also, the cost of living is much more expensive here, so while I wouldn't swap my NHS for the US system, it is true that most people from the States would be worse off here as when comparing prices, generally just swap the $ for a £...there's no need to worry about exchange rates or anything like that.
Yes. We get less for our tax dollars in the US. That mismanagement is what sucks, not the fact that we pay taxes.
I've started to suspect that lately: Americans don't like taxes because the government sucks at spending tax money properly. Sweden is supposed to have some of the highest taxes in the world, but we get damn good returns on it.
Our federal tax money goes into a void, basically. We get to live in the best-defended country on earth, but we're geophysical isolated from every threat but mexico. Quite a bit of it goes to unpopular federal law enforcement, and even when we spend where we should (ie education) we end up with clumsy shit like no child left behind.
How do you solve the situation though? You'd need to rework the government in a major way.
Violent revolution.
Quick, get the guns.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
0
Options
JohnnyCacheStarting DefensePlace at the tableRegistered Userregular
Yes. We get less for our tax dollars in the US. That mismanagement is what sucks, not the fact that we pay taxes.
I've started to suspect that lately: Americans don't like taxes because the government sucks at spending tax money properly. Sweden is supposed to have some of the highest taxes in the world, but we get damn good returns on it.
Our federal tax money goes into a void, basically. We get to live in the best-defended country on earth, but we're geophysical isolated from every threat but mexico. Quite a bit of it goes to unpopular federal law enforcement, and even when we spend where we should (ie education) we end up with clumsy shit like no child left behind.
How do you solve the situation though? You'd need to rework the government in a major way.
Well, I'd suggest right away that there be a limit on what you can put in a bill - one issue, one program for addressing it, and the appropriations for it. No more pork, period. We just stop writing laws that way.
Second, we need a long hard look at government procurement chains - things like KBR's rebilling processes are almost felonious, with several shell billing steps existing only to inflate costs on goods headed for the war effort. We need to poison the government tit, basically.
We have to change social security and medicare into programs that work, period.
I don't understand why Europeans have such high sales taxes when sales taxes are widely understood to be very regressive.
In the UK it's only on what are termed "luxuries", generally anything that contitutes basics required in order to live and anything for kids are exempt.
It has its flaws but it is the best system I know of.
"Would you trade it for the current US system of private insurance? "
Never ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER.
"What do you like about your system? "
That I can be totally broke (like I am at this moment) and still go to the doctor (was there just last week) without worrying that it is just going to make my situation worse.
"What do you hate about it? "
Hate is a strong word, the waiting times on certain treatments in certain parts of the country are pretty long, but luckily we have a free transfer between areas so if it's to long in one place you can just get it done somewhere else and if it's to long everywhere you can apply to get it done outside the country.
Hell if you think it's just waaay to long and you don't want to wait for approval you can just pay for it yourself at a privat hospital.
"Everyone gets the same treatment no matter how much care they need"
Huh? You get the treatment you need, in all my experiences with the healthcare system in Denmark I have never felt I didn't recieve all the attention that was needed.
"Do you want to wait to see a doctor?"
That one is true, there are waits to see doctors but they are rarely a problem, if you're put on wait it's usually because you can wait, if you can't, then there is no waiting.
"I've also heard that there are sometimes not enough specialists to go around or that doctors don't make a fair wage under these systems. "
I can't speak about the wages but I never heard a doctor complain about their wage so I assume its not a problem, they can negotiate their wage just like anyone else employed by the government.
My immidiate family (mother, father, sister and myself) have the missfortune of having atleast a dozen different chronic disease/ailments between us and not a year of my childhood went by without one of us being hospitalized. I can not even imagine how we could have in anyway gotten through it without the danish healthcare system being what it is.
Taking only my personal experiences.
When I was not even a year old I got bitten by a tick with the borrealia virus, this caused all kinds of problems and I was pretty much going in and out of hospitals weekly for a year or so. Even after that I was there often as the virus had effected my legs/ankles and how they grew (my legs became like stereotyped cowboys have ( ) shaped), I got arthritis in my ankles and a whole host of other problems.
There was ZERO wait for me to get to any specialist or get any help, they even gave my parents a special number to call that resulted in an ambulance being sent out ASAP to pick us up for the few times I did get home. Took about 4 years to get it fully treated and nowadays the only remnant of all that is me not being able to do sports due to the remnants of the arthritis in my ankles.
When I was about 14 I started getting severe migraines. my vision would get fucked up and I would be bedridden for a few days trying to sleep the headaches away.
My parents got me a doctors appointment with our GP, he sent me to get an MRI to check for brain tumours, when none was found I was sent to a specialist, and while he in the end never did find a cause, he did give me medication that could kill all but the worst headaches, for those I had to go to the "vagtlæge" (don't know the american term, it's a doctor you can get an appointment with at all times even at night on a sunday if it's needed and you can get in with only like a few minutes warning though you have to call prior to showing up) at this doctor I could get a shot which would kill even those.
Being sent between the various specialist and doctors all happened within a month, so no serious waiting there.
My only bad experience was after a serious triple fracture in my left arm that left it in a cast for almost 2 months, the first few weeks of which I was hospitalized while they observed it to make sure there was no swelling after the operations (metal studs to keep it together).
After I got the cast off I was supposed to be retrained at some specialists but the training fell through (the system forgot me) and my arm has pretty much been permenantly fucked up over it.
I don't blaim the healthcare system overall for it though, I blaim the specific department that got the order to retrain me for not following through on it.
Middle Class, mid level benefits, but not 100% secure in job
Chronic illness, no cure, only controllable - Nationalized healthcare
Long term illness, can be cured with expensive drugs - Nationalized healthcare with option to buy private coverage
Hit by a bus - Private coverage
Wealthy, secure in job, high level benefits
Chronic illness - Nationalized with option to buy private coverage
Long term illness - Private coverage
Hit by a bus - Private Coverage
The problem with nationalized medicine is that it doesn't care about your health, and shouldn't. It cares about the countries health, getting the most healthy people it can for the money it has. The UK system has problems because the government still wants it to run to a budget, whereas the people want everything covered with the best drugs. So when they say, "we have $1000, we can either buy 10 courses of Medicine X and save 10 lives, or 1 course of Medicine Y and extend someones life by a month, which is best?" The people demand "BOTH" and then the NHS goes broke. In France and Germany of course they just spend infinate cash, which is good now but means more problems down the line.
You need a combined system, where emergency care and actually curing diseases is the realm of the private company, offering this sort of thing at reasonable rates to everyone, and the untreatable chronic conditions are dealt with by everyone together through a universal healthcare system. That way you get the best medicines, and chronic conditions are not a death sentance like they are in the US.
tbloxham on
"That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
0
Options
BobCescaIs a girlBirmingham, UKRegistered Userregular
I'm wondering what the actual pay rates for the doctors are. I'm skeptical.
They may not be making $500,000 a year, but I don't think they're middle class.
From the NHS website:
"Pay for doctors
This page describes the pay for doctors.
Junior doctors
Junior doctors earn a basic salary and will usually be paid a supplement. This supplement is based on the extra hours worked above a 40 hour standard working week and the intensity of the work. The most common banding supplement is 50% of basic salary. In the most junior hospital doctor post (foundation year 1) a doctor on a 50% supplement would earn £32,793. This increases in the second year (foundation year 2) to £40,674. A doctor in specialist training on a 50% supplement could earn from £43464 to £68,343.
Specialty doctor and associate specialist (2008) (SAS doctors)
Doctors in the new specialty doctor grade earn between £34,584 and £64,632. See www.nhsemployers.org/sas for more details.
Consultants
Consultants can earn between £73,403 to £173,638, dependent on length of service and payment of additional performance related awards.
General practitioners
Many general practitioners (GPs) are self employed and hold contracts, either on their own or as part of a partnership, with their local primary care trust (PCT). The profit of GPs varies according to the services they provide for their patients and the way they choose to provide these services. Most GPs would expect to earn between £80,000 and £120,000.
Salaried GPs employed directly by PCTs earn between £52,462 to £79,167, dependent on, among other factors, length of service and experience."
Posts
So when I do the math based on this, the US-UK exchange rate, and the links Bob posted, I get a federal income tax rate of 19%.
Compared to my US federal income tax rate of 20%.
Hmmm...
It also looks like I'd pay 9.7% of my income for national insurance... compared to 7% for US Social Security plus Medicare. Hmmmmmmm....
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
A syringe full of saline is about $80 (according to a Medic-aid/Medicare bill). Just one. If you or I bought that, it'd be probably $1. Treatments to pay doctors and nurses and surgeries, okay, I can understand that being expensive, but $80 for a syringe full of saline because you have to pay your superstar CEO $1,000,000 is just ridiculous. Our hospital is losing patients and nurses fast because of the stupid stuff they're doing now.
There is absolutely no reason for the overpricing of materials or procedures. I'm not sure how to fix it, but I'm sure if a CEO is getting that much, a lot of management probably is, and that seems like a nice place to start. By the way, the nurses here get paid $9/hr to start. There's a McDonald's in the area that gets $11/hr.
Ah, the UK equivalent of the "welfare queen" argument. Just because a few people game the system doesn't mean that it doesn't help countless others.
Steam | Twitter
I have one particular friend (originally from the US, now a UK citizen) who can't return to the US. The reason being that she came over here to study, and had a chronic condition diagnosed while she was here. If she returned to the US, she wouldn't be able to get health insurance to cover it, and couldn't afford to pay for the treatments out of any remotely achievable salary.
So her options are: Remain in the UK, or die.
Sadly for me, the Wink did not emphasize that I was quoting these 2 newspapers in jest.
The worst part comes after they fix what's wrong with you that immediately (or shortly after) throws you out of disability. Now you have to try and find health care that covers your condition (not likely) to help pay for that prescription that costs $100 per pill and you take 3 a day. (just one of many too)
Now your costs have jumped from $70Kish to $100Kish. Just from one pill. You've also got to pay it out of pocket too. Or hope some non-profit group helps.
Ah, apologies. I've just heard entirely too many people quote things like that in earnest.
Steam | Twitter
You pay more taxes than I do. :P
Let's see, where did I hide those declaration papers... Ah yes. In 2002 (only papers I have available without digging more) I paid 30.25% income tax, plus 1.53% church taxes since I'm too lazy to tell the church that I hate them and don't want to be in their club.
Our Swedish healthcare? Well, I'm not exactly highly educated on how it works, but I've had no problems with it. The one time I've been hospitalized when I was around 15 due to tonsilectomy + abscess in the throat I got a room of my own and generally had a good experience.
Or.... quit your job, lose your home, live in abject poverty just to qualify for Medicaid.
I agree completely that I gain benefits from having a healthy society, and I may well take some back if I reach old age, however.
Person A earns £235k a year, pays around £70k in tax on income tax alone.
Person B earns £20k a year, pays around £4k in tax on income alone.
Both get the exact same services from the NHS, throw in the idea that Person A is healthy and Person B smokes 20 fags a day. Is that fair, in my eyes its not.
(my math may be out as I am currently up to my eyeballs on painkillers after just having had my Tonsils taken out)
Which is why our healthcare system is broken. It goes hand-in-hand with our welfare system. You can't get support unless you don't want to work. But if you want to work, and you know, contribute, too fucking bad we're not going to help you.
Right. And, if one were to have a job that offered health coverage, then he/she would be hard pressed to find a different job, open a small business, etc out of fear of losing said coverage. It sorta stifles upward mobility in our society, especially when a dude or lady has a family to support.
I will have to agree with this. Most Germans consult at least their GP if they so much as sniffle slightly. There is absolutely no way in hell that I would want to switch to the US system. And I'm in good health, all appointments I had in the last...3 or 4 years or so were the 6 month checkup at the dentists.
Of course, the german system has its downs. As mentioned, we pay ridiculus amounts of taxes, and the federal budget is still not nearly balanced. In some areas (notably eastern germany), specialists can be hard to come by, though I have never heard of anyone seriously complaining about it. You get your appointment a few months down the line unless its serious, and thats that. Hospital Doctors work 24 hour shifts (or more) with no sleep on a regular basis and - according to them - aren't paid enough.
As far as chronical illnesses go, the most that they make you do is paying part of the medication costs, though its not even close to the numbers I see thrown around by some Americans for their treatments.
How much?
Because apparently the UK's tax rate, described as "rape" by Willeh above, is comparable to what I pay here in the US.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I believe the traditional response is that person A is paying not entirely out of a sense of charity, but also because seeing the myriad examples of person B treated leads to greater social stability and safety for people like person A.
I host a podcast about movies.
It'd be nice to have health coverage without it being through my employment. Not sure why it's like the way it is, I mean it's great you can offer lower costs to the whole group but as soon as one person gets a mole lanced it goes up by rape dollars. Employment based health coverage makes perfect sense if everyone at your job is in perfect physical shape, eats healthy, and has no risk for any diseases, accidents, or anything like that. The minute cancer comes up, your whole company suffers to the point where the only thing covered is a doctors visit, if that.
And do you have any suggested solutions to this?
How does it work for small companies with, say, 10 employees?
Yes. We get less for our tax dollars in the US. That mismanagement is what sucks, not the fact that we pay taxes.
I host a podcast about movies.
Aren't they paying the VAT as well?
I've started to suspect that lately: Americans don't like taxes because the government sucks at spending tax money properly. Sweden is supposed to have some of the highest taxes in the world, but we get damn good returns on it.
We see the US government as spending our tax dollars primarily on the following: war, the military, Israel and Congressional hookers.
The premiums are relatively higher in SBA's and such. But it is actually less beneficial to have healthcare through a small business rather than buy it yourself in the eventuality that someone gets ill. I actually did that from the last place I worked. I paid $50 more per month on my personal care, but in 8 months someone got diagnosed with leukemia and their premiums jumped up to $20 more a month than mine in the following year. (5 employees)
I don't mean to steer this away from the topic, but it's somewhat applicable in community care, death benefits are a joke from the public sector too.
Our federal tax money goes into a void, basically. We get to live in the best-defended country on earth, but we're geophysical isolated from every threat but mexico. Quite a bit of it goes to unpopular federal law enforcement, and even when we spend where we should (ie education) we end up with clumsy shit like no child left behind.
I host a podcast about movies.
How do you solve the situation though? You'd need to rework the government in a major way.
Violent revolution.
Let me think...I'm currently making less then 10k € a year, so I can't really comment on taxes. As far as I know income taxes are between 15 and 40% , depending on income. Plus VAT (19% for most things, groceries etc. are 7%), plus other consume tax (fun fact: the Kaiser raised taxes on sparkling wine to finance his fleet buildup in the 1900s. That tax is still in effect.), plus a flat tax of 7.5% of your income tax to finance the rebuilding of eastern germany, plus the various welfare, unemployment, retirement and healthcare insurance taxes (those differ from insurance company to insurance company, usually around 14%), taxation on dogs, on cars, on petrol...yeah. The Association fo german taxpayers estimates that the average german pays about 51% of his annual income in taxes.
However, the flipside of this is that Britain has the very, best preventative care of the nations studied. Britain spots and stops things early and cost effectively. Conversely America has the very, very worst preventative care with large numbers of patients passing undiagnosed through early easily treatable stages of illness into the acute care category.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
You get nailed with 7% tax on basics as well. Man, that's rough, at least in Britain some stuff (like food and children's clothes) has a 0% VAT rate.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
Quick, get the guns.
Well, I'd suggest right away that there be a limit on what you can put in a bill - one issue, one program for addressing it, and the appropriations for it. No more pork, period. We just stop writing laws that way.
Second, we need a long hard look at government procurement chains - things like KBR's rebilling processes are almost felonious, with several shell billing steps existing only to inflate costs on goods headed for the war effort. We need to poison the government tit, basically.
We have to change social security and medicare into programs that work, period.
I host a podcast about movies.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
In the UK it's only on what are termed "luxuries", generally anything that contitutes basics required in order to live and anything for kids are exempt.
It has its flaws but it is the best system I know of.
"Would you trade it for the current US system of private insurance? "
Never ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER.
"What do you like about your system? "
That I can be totally broke (like I am at this moment) and still go to the doctor (was there just last week) without worrying that it is just going to make my situation worse.
"What do you hate about it? "
Hate is a strong word, the waiting times on certain treatments in certain parts of the country are pretty long, but luckily we have a free transfer between areas so if it's to long in one place you can just get it done somewhere else and if it's to long everywhere you can apply to get it done outside the country.
Hell if you think it's just waaay to long and you don't want to wait for approval you can just pay for it yourself at a privat hospital.
"Everyone gets the same treatment no matter how much care they need"
Huh? You get the treatment you need, in all my experiences with the healthcare system in Denmark I have never felt I didn't recieve all the attention that was needed.
"Do you want to wait to see a doctor?"
That one is true, there are waits to see doctors but they are rarely a problem, if you're put on wait it's usually because you can wait, if you can't, then there is no waiting.
"I've also heard that there are sometimes not enough specialists to go around or that doctors don't make a fair wage under these systems. "
I can't speak about the wages but I never heard a doctor complain about their wage so I assume its not a problem, they can negotiate their wage just like anyone else employed by the government.
My immidiate family (mother, father, sister and myself) have the missfortune of having atleast a dozen different chronic disease/ailments between us and not a year of my childhood went by without one of us being hospitalized. I can not even imagine how we could have in anyway gotten through it without the danish healthcare system being what it is.
Taking only my personal experiences.
When I was not even a year old I got bitten by a tick with the borrealia virus, this caused all kinds of problems and I was pretty much going in and out of hospitals weekly for a year or so. Even after that I was there often as the virus had effected my legs/ankles and how they grew (my legs became like stereotyped cowboys have ( ) shaped), I got arthritis in my ankles and a whole host of other problems.
There was ZERO wait for me to get to any specialist or get any help, they even gave my parents a special number to call that resulted in an ambulance being sent out ASAP to pick us up for the few times I did get home. Took about 4 years to get it fully treated and nowadays the only remnant of all that is me not being able to do sports due to the remnants of the arthritis in my ankles.
When I was about 14 I started getting severe migraines. my vision would get fucked up and I would be bedridden for a few days trying to sleep the headaches away.
My parents got me a doctors appointment with our GP, he sent me to get an MRI to check for brain tumours, when none was found I was sent to a specialist, and while he in the end never did find a cause, he did give me medication that could kill all but the worst headaches, for those I had to go to the "vagtlæge" (don't know the american term, it's a doctor you can get an appointment with at all times even at night on a sunday if it's needed and you can get in with only like a few minutes warning though you have to call prior to showing up) at this doctor I could get a shot which would kill even those.
Being sent between the various specialist and doctors all happened within a month, so no serious waiting there.
My only bad experience was after a serious triple fracture in my left arm that left it in a cast for almost 2 months, the first few weeks of which I was hospitalized while they observed it to make sure there was no swelling after the operations (metal studs to keep it together).
After I got the cast off I was supposed to be retrained at some specialists but the training fell through (the system forgot me) and my arm has pretty much been permenantly fucked up over it.
I don't blaim the healthcare system overall for it though, I blaim the specific department that got the order to retrain me for not following through on it.
They may not be making $500,000 a year, but I don't think they're middle class.
Edit:
Found something here, not sure of the reliability. Looks pretty even with US doctors.
Poor Person, poor job, no job benefits etc.
You want completely nationalized healthcare.
Middle Class, mid level benefits, but not 100% secure in job
Chronic illness, no cure, only controllable - Nationalized healthcare
Long term illness, can be cured with expensive drugs - Nationalized healthcare with option to buy private coverage
Hit by a bus - Private coverage
Wealthy, secure in job, high level benefits
Chronic illness - Nationalized with option to buy private coverage
Long term illness - Private coverage
Hit by a bus - Private Coverage
The problem with nationalized medicine is that it doesn't care about your health, and shouldn't. It cares about the countries health, getting the most healthy people it can for the money it has. The UK system has problems because the government still wants it to run to a budget, whereas the people want everything covered with the best drugs. So when they say, "we have $1000, we can either buy 10 courses of Medicine X and save 10 lives, or 1 course of Medicine Y and extend someones life by a month, which is best?" The people demand "BOTH" and then the NHS goes broke. In France and Germany of course they just spend infinate cash, which is good now but means more problems down the line.
You need a combined system, where emergency care and actually curing diseases is the realm of the private company, offering this sort of thing at reasonable rates to everyone, and the untreatable chronic conditions are dealt with by everyone together through a universal healthcare system. That way you get the best medicines, and chronic conditions are not a death sentance like they are in the US.
From the NHS website:
"Pay for doctors
This page describes the pay for doctors.
Junior doctors
Junior doctors earn a basic salary and will usually be paid a supplement. This supplement is based on the extra hours worked above a 40 hour standard working week and the intensity of the work. The most common banding supplement is 50% of basic salary. In the most junior hospital doctor post (foundation year 1) a doctor on a 50% supplement would earn £32,793. This increases in the second year (foundation year 2) to £40,674. A doctor in specialist training on a 50% supplement could earn from £43464 to £68,343.
Specialty doctor and associate specialist (2008) (SAS doctors)
Doctors in the new specialty doctor grade earn between £34,584 and £64,632. See www.nhsemployers.org/sas for more details.
Consultants
Consultants can earn between £73,403 to £173,638, dependent on length of service and payment of additional performance related awards.
General practitioners
Many general practitioners (GPs) are self employed and hold contracts, either on their own or as part of a partnership, with their local primary care trust (PCT). The profit of GPs varies according to the services they provide for their patients and the way they choose to provide these services. Most GPs would expect to earn between £80,000 and £120,000.
Salaried GPs employed directly by PCTs earn between £52,462 to £79,167, dependent on, among other factors, length of service and experience."