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DRM

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Posts

  • halkunhalkun Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Oh Holy Mother of GOD are we going to have this argument every time a game is released? Meep, read the thread, we've been over this. Let it go. If you have nothing new to offer, I politely ask you to STFU.

  • GrathGrath Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    You really don't have any clue how this stuff works do you?

    You just read something on the intertubes and went 'RAWR BAD' and decided you had an informed opinion.

    Just a tidbit of information for you.

    I own a legal copy of windows xp. windows xp you are limited to three activations by the terms of service and you are only supposed to activate it on one machine. then you are required to call into the activation phone number and perform a manual activation.

    Now all this really does is cause problems for two people.

    Casual thieves (ie: most thieves)
    People who tinker with their machines alot and reinstall multiple times.

    I have used the same copy of windows xp for years. I have reinstalled it close to 20 times. I have never once called the activation line and I have not done anything illegal.

    The reason for this is because most of these servers that you connect to that make sure you haven't installed your software too many times only check a 90 day period. The reason for this is basic call center management. Without the 90 day period your volume will exponentially increase. As you stated companies aren't going to want to pay for these employees. Typically once something becomes obsolete there will be such a small number of people using the software that they will do one of three things.


    One: Release a patch that no longer causes the game to check for activation. This is the next logical step as alot of companies are releasing their own "No-CD" patches.

    Two: If the company stops creating products the server will probably end up just being merged with whatever company bought the rights to their software and instead of maintaining a database of codes it could simply be switched to an "always say yes" for the obsolete games.

    Three: They won't stop their servers from existing. They have other products coming out and they intend to keep making money and they have no reason to stop supporting the old products. Its much more cost effective to make your current infrastructure support your new releases than create new systems for every new product you release. The people answering your phone calls really only care what key you give them and what their computer says, they don't care what game you're trying to install.



    Nothing in the industry of video games supports your wild outlandish claims, even standard business practices go against what you're saying.

    I guess to answer your question the fantasy world I live in is "The real world"

    3ds Code 0619-3710-2995
  • GrathGrath Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    oh and I brought up windows xp because its been out for five years. Its not a game but its a perfect example that you're wrong. Its pretty much set the standard for DRM.

    3ds Code 0619-3710-2995
  • aunsophaunsoph Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    So, just out of curiosity, (I'm not interested in joining this debate again.) how many activations are we entitled to with each Episode?

    And what triggers them? Uninstalling an older release and installing a new one? A plain reinstall? Or does it write itself on the registry and only a fresh new OS setup would pop it?

    I need to know because I'm reinstalling Episode 1 and adding Episode 2 in a more organized directory structure. Previously, I thought they would all go into the same folder, so I never bothered with say "C:\Games\Rain-Slick\Episode X\" or whatever.

    I also reinstalled the game every time Greenhouse made available a new release of Episode 1. (I really want to know why they couldn't just release smaller patches instead.)

    Basically, I just want to know if I already blew a few of them on trivial stuff.

  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Meep3D wrote: »
    redfenix wrote: »
    Congratulations! Shut the hell up.
    Why? Am I not allowed to express my opinion that the 'gamers gamers game' has exactly the same DRM system as the universally loathed Spore?

    Yeah... he pretty much had it right. First off, these are forums owned by a company, and not say ... the United States. You don't have a 1st admendment right here, so let's drop the whole "I have rights" argument before it begins.

    Secondly, you are a moron. I think this was probably established long before I said it, but the point stands. If you had bothered to read this thread before making your stupid posts, or even read the playgreenhouse terms, you would realize that what we have protecting RSPOD : E1 and RSPOD : E2 doesn't even really qualify as belonging to the same UNIVERSE as the DRM that is "protecting" Spore.

    Maybe you could start by growing a brain and doing a little thinking for yourself, before you go off half cocked and act like a moron.

    Original point stands, you are a moron.

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • Meep3DMeep3D Registered User
    edited October 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    Meep3D wrote: »
    redfenix wrote: »
    Congratulations! Shut the hell up.
    Why? Am I not allowed to express my opinion that the 'gamers gamers game' has exactly the same DRM system as the universally loathed Spore?

    Yeah... he pretty much had it right. First off, these are forums owned by a company, and not say ... the United States. You don't have a 1st admendment right here, so let's drop the whole "I have rights" argument before it begins.

    I'm not American, and I am not claiming First Amendment rights here. If the admins want to censor my posts or ban me, that is up to them, but until that point I have just as much right to express my opinion as you do. Just because I am not a sycophantic yes man fanboy such as yourself doesn't mean I am not allowed to post.
    Secondly, you are a moron. I think this was probably established long before I said it, but the point stands. If you had bothered to read this thread before making your stupid posts, or even read the playgreenhouse terms, you would realize that what we have protecting RSPOD : E1 and RSPOD : E2 doesn't even really qualify as belonging to the same UNIVERSE as the DRM that is "protecting" Spore.

    It's exactly the same. On install on new hardware or OS the game requires a valid connection to an activation server before it will function. As soon as that server stops working (be it bankrupcy, time, acts of god) the game will also stop working. Sure there are warm and fuzzy 'don't worry we'll look after you' guarantees, but how much will they be worth in 5 or 10 years time when the original developers may not have access to the source code let alone still work for the company.

    Sure, if they had the no-drm patch in escrow in case the situation ever arose that would help, but they haven't done this so we are essentially reliant on HH to continue to exist as a profitable venture to play this game. How many game companies that made the classics from your youth (mind you I reckon you probably are still a youth so it's kind of irrelevant) still exist?
    Maybe you could start by growing a brain and doing a little thinking for yourself, before you go off half cocked and act like a moron.

    Original point stands, you are a moron.

    Your a hypocritical yes-man fanboy. Either remote activation DRM is acceptable or it isn't, you can't pick and choose based on how 'nice' you think a company is for the simple reason that you don't know who will be running that company in the future. Things change no matter how much you don't want them to.

    Also, if you have a problem with my opinion feel free to state it, but simply calling someone a moron over and over simply indicates that you are not very intelligent yourself as you are unable to form a proper argument.

    Oh, and to Grath - We are already seeing the results of DRM servers being turned off in the case of several unprofitable music store ventures. Keeping a server running costs time and money and no company is going to do it indefinatley out of the goodness of their hearts.

    Also using 'But Microsoft do it' is possibly the worst justification I've ever seen!

    Either DRM is bad or DRM is good. Make your minds up.

  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Dude,

    You're digging a hole here. You really should look at my post history before you call me a sycophantic yes man fanboy.

    There's a pretty huge difference between the Spore DRM and the HH DRM. Namely ... SecuROM. That and.... get this... the penny-arcade games... which are DOWNLOADED ... check in .... ONCE... when you activate them. It's a very bizzare world indeed where needing to connect to a server to verify the key you've entered is in fact... REAL ... and say ... not a cracked KEYGEN key ... is a problem.

    And ... as HH has pointed out in this thread, the install limit is there as a red flag. If someone decides to be a douche and give his key out to a few friends, that's gonna raise a red flag. There's absolutely nothing wrong with non-intrusive copy protection. This software isn't phoning home once weekly (as the case originaly was with say ... Bioshock), and it doesn't contain a rootkit, and it doesn't contain software that installs invisibly and will break your other applications and give you problems legitimately using your computer's equipment (like Spore and SecuROM).

    So again... you're a moron. You're screaming bloody murder and trying to compare an apple to a kamkwat, but you haven't bothered to actually learn anything about either of them, so you're acting like a douche bag under the terrible assumption that they're the same thing.

    And your classic line "Either DRM is ok or it isn't" ... again, read the thread jackass.

    TL;DR - This guy is a total douche. At least the King of Douchesylvania came up with some hilarity last time around.

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • Meep3DMeep3D Registered User
    edited October 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    There's a pretty huge difference between the Spore DRM and the HH DRM. Namely ... SecuROM. That and.... get this... the penny-arcade games... which are DOWNLOADED ... check in .... ONCE... when you activate them.
    Or until you reinstall them, or delete your profile, buy a new PC or change some of your hardware.

    The outcry about Spore has nothing to do with SecuROM. Nasty rootkit-esque DRM has been about for years. The outcry with Spore was due to the phone-home activation required to get it to work in the first place.

    The problem is as soon as the activation server gets turned off the game we bought and paid for will cease to install anymore. Many huge publishers and development studios no longer exist, due to buyouts and bankrupcy. Running servers and telephone support isn't cheap and I seriously doubt a bankrupt company will continue to do so, nor will a parent company support servers for a game that makes no profit.

    THAT is the outcry about this form of DRM. Obviously it's not a problem now, but in five or ten years it's pretty much guaranteed your game won't work anymore. Once the activation servers have been turned off (and they will be turned off at some point) you'll have no option but to crack the game* or never play it again.

    Sure, HH claim to be all warm and fuzzy and 'not evil', but if this was truly the case WTF are they doing copying the most loathed DRM system so far?

    * The true irony with this sort of anti-consumer protection system is the anti activation crack is normally available with the downloadable ISO before the official game is released

  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    A single phone home is as unobtrusive as copy protection has been in years. And I think if you read through the huge Amazon comment mess about Spore, you'll find that SecuROM was indeed the biggest part people were outraged about.

    By the way, you've already invalidated your argument that having a one time activation is terrible because in some unforseen murky future the activation servers will be offline, by talking about the fact that there is already a crack out there. If, in some distant dystopian future, you are unable to install the software you purchased because HH has ceased to exist, you already answered the question of what to do then. Ironically enough, there are entire, easy to google, websites devoted to abandonware and the various draconian copy protection schemes of yesteryear and overcoming them now.

    As for your statement "The true irony with this sort of anti-consumer protection system is the anti activation crack is normally available with the downloadable ISO before the official game is released" ... the vast majority of major titles that are released are still released in a box copy on a DVD, etc... and are not available for download unless you purchase and then you're given a limited use download link. So when people are downloading the ISO's, they're getting the software the only way they can without purchasing it.

    But ... with this game (and episode 1), hothead has given you the entire software, on an open link, to download as often as you like. The only thing stopping someone from downloading the game and using it without paying for it is an activation code. If the software didn't phone home to check the code, it would be mere minutes and all that a thief would need would be an easy to google cdkey generator and voila...

    Basically what you're asking for is the company to give unlimited access to the complete software ... and no safeguard to actually compell you to purchase it. That's a quick road to there never being any more games from HotHead... one does not spend development money to simply give their game away.

    But again... try reading the thread?

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • Meep3DMeep3D Registered User
    edited October 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    there is already a crack out there
    Isn't that illegal, and breaking the law? So what you're saying is that in the future I'll have to rely on being able to find a suitable warez site (which isn't guaranteed) to be able to play my own game?

  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Meep3D wrote: »
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    there is already a crack out there
    Isn't that illegal, and breaking the law? So what you're saying is that in the future I'll have to rely on being able to find a suitable warez site (which isn't guaranteed) to be able to play my own game?

    I like how you quoted a little tiny part of my post, which was in fact me regurgitating what you said in your post about the crack being included in the iso already available for download. (Interestingly enough, I wonder how you know there is an ISO available already and that the crack is inside it and not a separate download? Hypocrite much?)

    And all I said was ... you are whining about a theoretical possible future where the following has happened:

    1a.) You purchased the game (a dubious prospect*) from Steam
    1b.) You purchased the game (a dubious prospect*) from Hothead/playgreenhouse
    2a.) Steam has gone offline and no longer exists
    2b.) Hothead games and playgreenhouse no longer exist
    3ab.) Steam/HH/Playgreenhouse didn't release a final patch or update of some sort that removes the problem.

    and in the same breath you mention the workaround for the very theoretical (if unlikely) future you predict.

    * - Honestly you seem just like everyone else who whines with no real substance other than a vague "future" where you might potentially be robbed of the product you purchased. You seem to be attempting to justify the fact that you stole it instead of buying it, and you want it to be the developer's fault you were "forced" to steal it.

    ** - Of course, if all you really care about is your game working forever, you could purchase it, so that you're not a thief, and so that you support Penny Arcade and HH ... and then apply the crack you apparantly have already found.

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • Meep3DMeep3D Registered User
    edited October 2008
    I buy my games thank-you very much. And I just assumed there was a cracked version out there as it's pretty much guaranteed.

    Didn't Yahoo, MSN and Wal*Mart close down their DRM servers quite recently leaving everyone who legally bought from them stuffed?

    Your living in a fantasy land if you think HH's DRM servers will be up forever. Activation based DRM is unacceptable as your ability to play your own game can be revoked at pretty much any time with no recourse.

  • GrathGrath Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    seriously why is it everyone who comes in here mouth foaming about drm really has no idea what they are talking about?

    They sound like all the idiots who saw that Mass Effect had 'sexual content' and went on a crusade against the game for being a sex game.

    3ds Code 0619-3710-2995
  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Meep3D wrote: »
    Didn't Yahoo, MSN and Wal*Mart close down their DRM servers quite recently leaving everyone who legally bought from them stuffed?

    I guess we need another lesson in analogies. You can only compare things that are similar. In this case, you are trying to compare group A (Yahoo!, MSN, Wal-Mart) with group B (Hothead/Playgreenhouse). These groups may at first appear similar (both groups contain companies which sell products which have some form of DRM), but anything more than a casual comparison will show one huge honking difference.

    The companies in Group A make the vast majority of their profits in areas OTHER than games/software with DRM attached. You could, in fact, completely remove software sales from the companies in group A and there would be little to no impact on their bottom line.

    The company in Group B; however, ONLY sells games, and aside from one collector's edition to date their games are exclusively available for download. The company in group B will have to actually CEASE EXISTING in order for their DRM server to go down.

    So we're back to you complaining about some marginally possible dystopian future... and to quote someone far more eloquent then I...
    Grath wrote:
    seriously why is it everyone who comes in here mouth foaming about drm really has no idea what they are talking about?

    They sound like all the idiots who saw that Mass Effect had 'sexual content' and went on a crusade against the game for being a sex game.

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • GrathGrath Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    That is quite possibly the only time in my entire life that anyone has called me "eloquent" <3

    3ds Code 0619-3710-2995
  • ShabsShabs Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    And all I said was ... you are whining about a theoretical possible future where the following has happened:

    1a.) You purchased the game (a dubious prospect*) from Steam
    1b.) You purchased the game (a dubious prospect*) from Hothead/playgreenhouse
    2a.) Steam has gone offline and no longer exists
    2b.) Hothead games and playgreenhouse no longer exist
    3ab.) Steam/HH/Playgreenhouse didn't release a final patch or update of some sort that removes the problem.

    I think you are wrong in assuming the people who want no DRM are people who wouldn't pay for the software in the first place.

    All I want is that software act like a music CD (*with no DRM): you put a CD in a CD player and it plays music.

    Similarly, when I buy software, I want to put this software on a PC and have it run the software.

    If I think there is some impediment to me using my software in that way, I will not buy the software. For example, if I get a new stereo system, I don't want to have to think - even for a second - "Will my CDs run on this new fancy stereo?" I want to know they just will.

    Ditto with PCs. When I get a new computer, I want to take the software I purchased and put it on that computer and have it work. I don't want to have to think about each individual piece of software and consider its EULA and DRM and fire off a bunch of emails to customer service depts who give me permission to use something I already paid them for. How helpful that customer service department is in servicing my request is completely irrelevant to me.

    That portability is something I see in an established digital distribution service like Steam, so that's why I'm waiting for a Steam release before I buy Episode Two, even though I really really (really) want to play it now.


    (EDIT: I am aware that Steam itself functions as I want it to because of the way it handles DRM. I suppose I'm not anti-DRM, as much as it frustrates me to have an internet connection to play offline games, but against DRM that restricts portability.)

  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Shabs wrote: »
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    And all I said was ... you are whining about a theoretical possible future where the following has happened:

    1a.) You purchased the game (a dubious prospect*) from Steam
    1b.) You purchased the game (a dubious prospect*) from Hothead/playgreenhouse
    2a.) Steam has gone offline and no longer exists
    2b.) Hothead games and playgreenhouse no longer exist
    3ab.) Steam/HH/Playgreenhouse didn't release a final patch or update of some sort that removes the problem.

    I think you are wrong in assuming the people who want no DRM are people who wouldn't pay for the software in the first place.

    All I want is that software act like a music CD (*with no DRM): you put a CD in a CD player and it plays music.

    Similarly, when I buy software, I want to put this software on a PC and have it run the software.

    If I think there is some impediment to me using my software in that way, I will not buy the software. For example, if I get a new stereo system, I don't want to have to think - even for a second - "Will my CDs run on this new fancy stereo?" I want to know they just will.

    Ditto with PCs. When I get a new computer, I want to take the software I purchased and put it on that computer and have it work. I don't want to have to think about each individual piece of software and consider its EULA and DRM and fire off a bunch of emails to customer service depts who give me permission to use something I already paid them for. How helpful that customer service department is in servicing my request is completely irrelevant to me.

    That portability is something I see in an established digital distribution service like Steam, so that's why I'm waiting for a Steam release before I buy Episode Two, even though I really really (really) want to play it now.


    (EDIT: I am aware that Steam itself functions as I want it to because of the way it handles DRM. I suppose I'm not anti-DRM, as much as it frustrates me to have an internet connection to play offline games, but against DRM that restricts portability.)


    I already explained why your expectation is foolish and unreasonable. We're talking about a piece of software that is only available via download. For the 360, this isn't a huge security risk because there's no way to download stuff for an unmodified 360 unless the product is paid for, and if you've modified your 360 to run Linux (as an example) and function more like a regular computer, the problem shifts into the same realm as the pc download.

    Since the software is only available online, even if they put the ability to download the software behind a login system and you have to have purchased, all it takes is one person to put the downloaded exe file up somewhere, and voila ... there has to be something protecting the developer, or they'll go bankrupt becuase if it's easy to steal, people will steal.

    And don't give me this "I pay for all my stuff..." crap. Human beings can be counted upon to do the wrong thing when they can get away with it and think nobody will catch them.

    DRM is reality. Get used to it...

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • ShabsShabs Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    Shabs wrote: »
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    And all I said was ... you are whining about a theoretical possible future where the following has happened:

    1a.) You purchased the game (a dubious prospect*) from Steam
    1b.) You purchased the game (a dubious prospect*) from Hothead/playgreenhouse
    2a.) Steam has gone offline and no longer exists
    2b.) Hothead games and playgreenhouse no longer exist
    3ab.) Steam/HH/Playgreenhouse didn't release a final patch or update of some sort that removes the problem.

    I think you are wrong in assuming the people who want no DRM are people who wouldn't pay for the software in the first place.

    All I want is that software act like a music CD (*with no DRM): you put a CD in a CD player and it plays music.

    Similarly, when I buy software, I want to put this software on a PC and have it run the software.

    If I think there is some impediment to me using my software in that way, I will not buy the software. For example, if I get a new stereo system, I don't want to have to think - even for a second - "Will my CDs run on this new fancy stereo?" I want to know they just will.

    Ditto with PCs. When I get a new computer, I want to take the software I purchased and put it on that computer and have it work. I don't want to have to think about each individual piece of software and consider its EULA and DRM and fire off a bunch of emails to customer service depts who give me permission to use something I already paid them for. How helpful that customer service department is in servicing my request is completely irrelevant to me.

    That portability is something I see in an established digital distribution service like Steam, so that's why I'm waiting for a Steam release before I buy Episode Two, even though I really really (really) want to play it now.


    (EDIT: I am aware that Steam itself functions as I want it to because of the way it handles DRM. I suppose I'm not anti-DRM, as much as it frustrates me to have an internet connection to play offline games, but against DRM that restricts portability.)


    I already explained why your expectation is foolish and unreasonable. We're talking about a piece of software that is only available via download. For the 360, this isn't a huge security risk because there's no way to download stuff for an unmodified 360 unless the product is paid for, and if you've modified your 360 to run Linux (as an example) and function more like a regular computer, the problem shifts into the same realm as the pc download.

    Since the software is only available online, even if they put the ability to download the software behind a login system and you have to have purchased, all it takes is one person to put the downloaded exe file up somewhere, and voila ... there has to be something protecting the developer, or they'll go bankrupt becuase if it's easy to steal, people will steal.

    I'm not saying there should be nothing protecting the developer. However, we are the ones putting money in their pockets. We should be able to use the software we paid for in an unobtrusive way.

    I think Valve games on Steam have DRM right - Steam enables the portability I used to have with game install discs. I can sit at any computer (...with a net connection) and use the software I own. It's simple and unobtrusive. My expectation is not only perfectly reasonable, but this is a prime example of how well it can work. Steam may be even more restrictive than Greenhouse's DRM system, but it actually adds value for me. Imagine that! Adding value for a paying customer instead of headaches!
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    And don't give me this "I pay for all my stuff..." crap. Human beings can be counted upon to do the wrong thing when they can get away with it and think nobody will catch them.

    Are the people who steal all their software people who would pay for it otherwise?

    I do think some (any) form of DRM will restrict the casual consumer from stealing software, which is a good thing. But some sort of convoluted restrictive system is unnecessary and simply not effective as people who really want to steal the software will steal it anyway.

    For the record, in case it's not clear, I pay for all of my games:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/bisfam/games
    http://live.xbox.com/member/Biswas Brothers

    I also pay for all of my music, but I will only buy physical CDs or digital files with no DRM because, again, I am not willing to put up with restrictions to my content usage when I am the one putting money in the pockets of the creators of that content.
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    DRM is reality. Get used to it...

    I am not willing to accept lazy, wrong DRM solutions. You have more power as a consumer then to bend over and submit. If a company's solution to DRM is to treat me like I'm a criminal even though I'm putting money in their pockets, I will not buy their software. If your business is software, and DRM is part of your business model, don't treat it like an afterthought. Don't saddle me with Securom. Figure it out, and spend dev time on it! (For the record, I appreciate that Greenhouse has spent time on their own solution rather than choosing someone else's implementation.)

    I don't own Spore because I think that DRM solution is b.s.

    I'll happily buy any Valve game on Steam because their DRM solution is not b.s.

  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    So what exactly is your beef with the Hothead DRM system? And how would you change it to be less "convoluted restricted" (which to me it is not) and have it still actually WORK.

    http://steamcommunity.com/id/smartforce/games

    I purchase mine also :-) (Althoug my steam rating is teh suk ;p)

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • ShabsShabs Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    So what exactly is your beef with the Hothead DRM system? And how would you change it to be less "convoluted restricted" (which to me it is not) and have it still actually WORK.

    http://steamcommunity.com/id/smartforce/games

    I purchase mine also :-) (Althoug my steam rating is teh suk ;p)

    n activations where n <= 3 is pretty restrictive. From what I read earlier in the thread, Hothead is able and willing to be flexible on this, which is good. I'm skeptical of the intentions of any company that uses a similar system and is less directly engaged with their customers (i.e. EA, Activision, Ubisoft, etc.) For example, from what I was hearing on Giant Bomb's podcast, EA wants to sell you Red Alert 3 digitally and make you pay extra if you want any activations 2 years past the initial install date... that epitomizes the wrong approach to DRM.

    A built-in ability to deauthorize machines would be nice. If you've used n activations, and you try to install on the n+1st PC, give an option to deactivate one/all of the other machines as a part of the install process. I don't know if they have a system like this that is automated since I purchased off of Steam and have only installed on 2 PCs so far, but if they do or can, that would be commendable.

  • ShabsShabs Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/smartforce/games

    I purchase mine also :-) (Althoug my steam rating is teh suk ;p)

    As an aside... you appear to own TF2 yet have not played it! It's worth spending a few hours trying one of the best games ever. ;)

    Just remember the Protip:
    http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/09/21/

    Gabe isn't kidding. I have that framed on my wall.

  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    At what number of activations does it become acceptable? Five? Ten?

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • aetiusaetius Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Just noting that I did not buy Episode 2 because of the DRM.

  • Meep3DMeep3D Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    Meep3D wrote: »
    Didn't Yahoo, MSN and Wal*Mart close down their DRM servers quite recently leaving everyone who legally bought from them stuffed?

    I guess we need another lesson in analogies. You can only compare things that are similar. In this case, you are trying to compare group A (Yahoo!, MSN, Wal-Mart) with group B (Hothead/Playgreenhouse). These groups may at first appear similar (both groups contain companies which sell products which have some form of DRM), but anything more than a casual comparison will show one huge honking difference.

    I think you need a lesson in manners. I also fail to see how my analogy isn't valid. The only difference is that the big companies specified are generally more diverse and more able to take the loss in running the servers. Now I am not sure how things run in the happy fun land that you live in, but down here in the 'real world' companies exist to make money. If they stop making money they cease to exist. It really is that simple. As a general rule companies will not continually engage in behaviour which actively loses them money.
    The companies in Group A make the vast majority of their profits in areas OTHER than games/software with DRM attached. You could, in fact, completely remove software sales from the companies in group A and there would be little to no impact on their bottom line.

    Yet they still close the servers to save money. It seems to me that looking at this behaviour that running DRM servers 24/7 with telephone + email support is not a cheap or easy prospect.
    The company in Group B; however, ONLY sells games, and aside from one collector's edition to date their games are exclusively available for download. The company in group B will have to actually CEASE EXISTING in order for their DRM server to go down.

    Which is the entire problem. A couple of bad titles and HH are gone. A large company would be more able to absorb the loss but a company who makes money almost entirely off of niche titles with no product diversity is a dangerous proposition. Gaming companies are not famed for their longevity.

    And you stated my problem exactly. The minute HH go bust or get bought out by a larger company as part of a rescue deal (which can very easily happen) then the game will be uninstallable and useless.

    As an example I still install and play System Shock 2 every now and again. If Looking Glass had used a similar system my CD would be a coaster right now and everyone that bought the game would be unable to play it.

    Claiming that HH will stay in business forever is the height of naievity.

    ---

    If they were truly serious that they would 'sort us out' in case of the collapse of the company then there would be a copy of the non-DRM infected runtime in escrow somewhere. At the moment we are relying on their word that when the worst happens they'll dig out the source and compile it without DRM, despite the fact that the office would be closed, the servers would have been siezed and they would be spending 18 hours a day just trying not lose their houses.

    It's proven, however, that (from memory) 90% of piracy occurs in the first month. If they, after 6 months, turned off the DRM and gave everyone a non-infected installer (use a code or something lax) that would work forever that would probably be acceptable and would have stopped 90% of the piracy.

    They have not done either of these things though as they are concerned with protecting themselves, not protecting the consumers.

    Stop acting like they are your friends looking to do you a favour. They are company aiming to make money and although I am sure they are nice guys, when the shit hits the fan they will be making sure they are ok, not making sure that some stupid game works (as anybody would).

  • VylenVylen Registered User
    edited November 2008
    so..... what are you guys trying to argue about again? heh...

    DRM falls under security in computing... and with all forms of security there will always be Type-I and Type-II errors.... If you try to reduce the chance of a Type-I error occurring (like, preventing the chance of a legitimate customer from failing to use a purchased item), the chance of Type-II errors increases (like, the chances of illegitimate users illegally obtaining the same item).... conversely, decrease the chance of a Type-II error and the chance of a Type-I error increases...

    so what i'm trying to get at is that its a balance between these types of errors (and from the end-users perception, a balance of what is right and wrong, bad and good).... and looking for solution that keeps a good balance is extremely difficult, it depends on what you think is a higher priority too.... this sort of thing will always exist and DRM is a solution... the implementation of the solution might not be good (e.g Sony DRM Rootkit) but people are trying...

    Its also hindered by the fact there's no unified DRM scheme available (because that could result in lowered security in sharing the scheme) so most, if not all, DRM schemes are proprietary.... there is/has been attempts for an OpenSource DRM scheme but its far from anything useful...

    ----

    Hmm, i wonder what im trying to get at now.. heh

    PSN: Vylen
  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Meep3D wrote: »
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    Meep3D wrote: »
    Didn't Yahoo, MSN and Wal*Mart close down their DRM servers quite recently leaving everyone who legally bought from them stuffed?

    I guess we need another lesson in analogies. You can only compare things that are similar. In this case, you are trying to compare group A (Yahoo!, MSN, Wal-Mart) with group B (Hothead/Playgreenhouse). These groups may at first appear similar (both groups contain companies which sell products which have some form of DRM), but anything more than a casual comparison will show one huge honking difference.

    Waaah... I'm terribly embarassed that you realized I made a logical error, so I'm going to insult you and try to justify my idiocy some more.
    The companies in Group A make the vast majority of their profits in areas OTHER than games/software with DRM attached. You could, in fact, completely remove software sales from the companies in group A and there would be little to no impact on their bottom line.

    Yet they still close the servers to save money. It seems to me that looking at this behaviour that running DRM servers 24/7 with telephone + email support is not a cheap or easy prospect.
    The company in Group B; however, ONLY sells games, and aside from one collector's edition to date their games are exclusively available for download. The company in group B will have to actually CEASE EXISTING in order for their DRM server to go down.

    Waaah, I'm going to cry and rail against the horrible injustice of DRM some more, and prove that I didn't even come close to comprehending the point you were making. I'll be long winded and say all sorts of things to try and justify my position that there should never be any DRM ... ever. Companies who's only income comes from these games should just leave them open to being keygenned ... because really what's most important is ME ME ME ME ME ME ME.


    Fixed that for ya.

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • Meep3DMeep3D Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    Fixed that for ya.
    Ahh, the old 'I have no argument so I am just going to throw some insults' school of discussion.

    Here's a question, True or False:

    Q:If HH goes out of business will I be able to install the game that I payed for anymore?

    (Hint - the answer's no)

    That is my problem and the reason I am not buying it. We are at the mercy of the company to be able to play the game we paid for.

    The only reason I am bothering to post here is because I feel that, as a small developer, HH may just listen and make sure that I will actually be able to use my software when I want to, rather than when they let me.

    It's idiots like yourself that let companies get away with pulling this crap. The only way to stop it is to vote with your wallet and not buy it.

    Are HH going to even be in business, let alone running an activation server with 24/7 telephone support in five years time?

  • ShabsShabs Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    At what number of activations does it become acceptable? Five? Ten?

    3 is perfectly acceptable if freeing up any/all of those licenses is possible without contacting customer support when I'm trying to install it for the 4th time.

    Any upper bound to activations makes me uncomfortable. For relatively low-priced software like the Penny Arcade games, I could probably live with 5 or 6, but even that number makes me uncomfortable for $50 PC games.

  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Meep3D wrote: »
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    Fixed that for ya.
    Ahh, the old 'I have no argument so I am just going to throw some insults' school of discussion.

    Here's a question, True or False:

    Q:If HH goes out of business will I be able to install the game that I payed for anymore?

    (Hint - the answer's no)

    That is my problem and the reason I am not buying it. We are at the mercy of the company to be able to play the game we paid for.

    The only reason I am bothering to post here is because I feel that, as a small developer, HH may just listen and make sure that I will actually be able to use my software when I want to, rather than when they let me.

    It's idiots like yourself that let companies get away with pulling this crap. The only way to stop it is to vote with your wallet and not buy it.

    Are HH going to even be in business, let alone running an activation server with 24/7 telephone support in five years time?


    You're basing your entire argument on the assumptions that:

    1.) Hothead will cease to exist

    and

    2.) When they do so, there will be no provision made for this situation.

    Your solution is to turn off any activation whatsoever. You're not even asking for a larger (or unlimited even) number of activations. Your argument is that the fact that it even /requires/ an activation is a problem. I can only assume you are old... nay ... ANCIENT. The fact is that the current generation of young people in their teens and early twenties have basically decided that they don't have to pay for ANYTHING. Music, movies, games, applications ... if it can be gotten free, they get it free.

    I won't even get into the fact that this attitude is ultimately self destructive because if you drive companies out of business, there will be nothing to steal anymore, let alone buy. Point being, you're being unreasonable when you ask for there to be no protection for Hothead.

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • Meep3DMeep3D Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    Meep3D wrote: »
    Darkwyndre wrote: »
    Fixed that for ya.
    Ahh, the old 'I have no argument so I am just going to throw some insults' school of discussion.

    Here's a question, True or False:

    Q:If HH goes out of business will I be able to install the game that I payed for anymore?

    (Hint - the answer's no)

    That is my problem and the reason I am not buying it. We are at the mercy of the company to be able to play the game we paid for.

    The only reason I am bothering to post here is because I feel that, as a small developer, HH may just listen and make sure that I will actually be able to use my software when I want to, rather than when they let me.

    It's idiots like yourself that let companies get away with pulling this crap. The only way to stop it is to vote with your wallet and not buy it.

    Are HH going to even be in business, let alone running an activation server with 24/7 telephone support in five years time?


    You're basing your entire argument on the assumptions that:

    1.) Hothead will cease to exist

    They will cease to exist one day. Maybe a year, maybe five, maybe ten. I hope it's later rather than sooner but it is inevitable. Many companies much, much larger than HH have been bought out and gone bust. It's simply the nature of business and it's a depressing fact that the normal lifespan of a game company is significantly shorter than virtually every other business.
    and

    2.) When they do so, there will be no provision made for this situation.

    If they had made a provision for this situation, they would have said. If the situation where they would need provision was to ever occur, chances are they wouldn't have access to the resources to do it, and would not doubt have much, much more pressing concerns anyway.
    Your solution is to turn off any activation whatsoever. You're not even asking for a larger (or unlimited even) number of activations. Your argument is that the fact that it even /requires/ an activation is a problem. I can only assume you are old... nay ... ANCIENT. The fact is that the current generation of young people in their teens and early twenties have basically decided that they don't have to pay for ANYTHING. Music, movies, games, applications ... if it can be gotten free, they get it free.

    Infinite activations only last as long as the server does. I am not saying don't protect it and I even provided several alternate routes - such as providing a DRM free runtime, either in escrow or as a promised release 6 months (or even a year) after the original launch. As I said it's zero day piracy that hurts the most. If you can keep it locked for ~30 days, you're golden.
    I won't even get into the fact that this attitude is ultimately self destructive because if you drive companies out of business, there will be nothing to steal anymore, let alone buy. Point being, you're being unreasonable when you ask for there to be no protection for Hothead.

    I am not asking for no protection, I just want to be able to buy a game and expect it to work without being at the mercy of a publishers DRM scheme.

  • GrathGrath Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2008
    meep you're retarded, honestly I don't think your brain works like a normal person.

    You need to read Shabs' posts. He has some validity in his concerns and actually makes points and sounds intelligent.

    You sound like an angry parent afraid that vidja games will make your son shoot the school up cause you saw it on dateline.

    3ds Code 0619-3710-2995
  • GrathGrath Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2008
    also if you bothered to read the thread you're posting in

    Don't forget that the DRM is with Greenhouse, which is a partnership between PA and HH... and I can assure that even if HH goes away, which isn't happening, you've got us to take care of the situation.

    And PA ain't goin' anywhere.

    That right there should have been end of discussion.

    3ds Code 0619-3710-2995
  • Simjanes2kSimjanes2k Registered User
    edited November 2008
    I was actually about to pick up Ep 2, but read on Eurogamer that it makes a lot more sense to check out Ep 1 first, even though the gameplay is a small step down. Huge props for learning and adapting by the way, I wish more companies improved their product over time rather than making it worse!

    At any rate, I didn't learn until I came here to ask why Ep 1 wasn't ten bucks on Greenhouse that this has got DRM. Makes me a sad panda. :(

    I really can't buy a game that uses DRM. I find it too heavy-handed to restrict customers in this way, whether you felt it was necessary or not. I find it too restrictive, and I won't pay for it. I wish it weren't the case for this game specifically, but I really have very few ways of making my voice truly heard.

    Speaking with my money is the best one.

  • JohnDoeJohnDoe Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Telltales system should be adopted by everyone doing episodic games.

    You buy the games, get the episodes as they come out with the activation based download (without limits on number of activations). After the season is complete (5-6 episodes, normally) you can get a disc shipped to you for only the cost of shipping. The disc only uses a cd-check, no activation.

    Best of both worlds.

  • ShabsShabs Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    JohnDoe wrote: »
    Telltales system should be adopted by everyone doing episodic games.

    You buy the games, get the episodes as they come out with the activation based download (without limits on number of activations). After the season is complete (5-6 episodes, normally) you can get a disc shipped to you for only the cost of shipping. The disc only uses a cd-check, no activation.

    Best of both worlds.

    That's a pretty cool approach!

  • Meep3DMeep3D Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Grath wrote: »
    meep you're retarded, honestly I don't think your brain works like a normal person.

    You need to read Shabs' posts. He has some validity in his concerns and actually makes points and sounds intelligent.

    You sound like an angry parent afraid that vidja games will make your son shoot the school up cause you saw it on dateline.
    20040319h.jpg
    An astute observation I'd say.

  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Simjanes2k wrote: »
    I was actually about to pick up Ep 2, but read on Eurogamer that it makes a lot more sense to check out Ep 1 first, even though the gameplay is a small step down. Huge props for learning and adapting by the way, I wish more companies improved their product over time rather than making it worse!

    At any rate, I didn't learn until I came here to ask why Ep 1 wasn't ten bucks on Greenhouse that this has got DRM. Makes me a sad panda. :(

    I really can't buy a game that uses DRM. I find it too heavy-handed to restrict customers in this way, whether you felt it was necessary or not. I find it too restrictive, and I won't pay for it. I wish it weren't the case for this game specifically, but I really have very few ways of making my voice truly heard.

    Speaking with my money is the best one.


    I think you should really read this entire thread before you decide not to purchase these two excellent games. What you probably mean by "DRM" and what is actually present in these games and promised by the developers (And Penny-Arcade guys) are worlds apart.

    For example, I refused to purchase Spore because of their DRM (SecuROM specifically). It is a destructive piece of software that truly interferes with me, as opposed to a transparent activation that I won't even ever notice unless I install the software on several computers (which is dubious since really, who does their gaming on more than one or two machines?) ... I know somebody is going to come self righteously complain about how they have eleven computers all over their four houses now just to try and make themselves look foolish.

    I also didn't purchase Bioshock until it was on Steam AND the Securom was removed from it. This meant I didn't get to play a great game as quickly as other people.

    But, with Penny-Arcade adventures games, the extent of the DRM is this:

    1.) You have to activate the game which you purchased and downloaded with an internet connection online. Once. Ever. Until you install it further times.

    2.) If you install it more than five (I think?) times, they're going to wonder why. The vast majority of people only have 2 or 3 computers tops, and even the most responsible user doesn't do a format and reinstall very often. Using more than the alotted installs is something that will only happen a very small percentage of the time with legitimate use.


    This is far more palatable than what the other companies in the industry are doing. People need to stop using the lame "Companies shouldn't treat me like a criminal" argument. The fact is that a vast percentage of younger computer/internet users have stolen something online (be it music, apps (Photoshop) or whatever). There ARE criminals out there. DRM doesn't imply that YOU are one of them... but the odds do. Don't like it? Thank your peers.

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Meep3D wrote: »
    Grath wrote: »
    meep you're retarded, honestly I don't think your brain works like a normal person.

    You need to read Shabs' posts. He has some validity in his concerns and actually makes points and sounds intelligent.

    You sound like an angry parent afraid that vidja games will make your son shoot the school up cause you saw it on dateline.
    20040319h.jpg
    An astute observation I'd say.

    The irony here is delcious. Outstanding.

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
  • Meep3DMeep3D Registered User
    edited November 2008
    The reason for the Spore outrage wasn't SecuROM (not that it doesn't suck massively) despite what others in this thread claim. There have been much worse DRM methods (such as Starforce) that havn't garnered anything near the level of hatred in the past. It's the fact that in a few years, once the DRM servers are off, everyone who bought Spore will no longer be able to play it is the problem.

    I simply refuse to buy software that has a remote activation method of DRM without a cast-iron guarantee that I will be able to play the game forever. As far as I know all we have is fluffy promises of 'doing the right thing' with no concrete plans to make this so.

    There have been many other methods pointed out in this thread to solve this problem, such as a postal copy of the game, or a DRM (activation) free version released to paying customers after a year or so. All we have is a vague promise that we'll still be able to use our software if the publisher goes titsup with no stated plans in place was this to ever be the case.

    I really don't see what is so strange about wanting to play my game for as long as I want that garners the current level of vitriol. Give me a concrete guarantee (DRM free in 3rd party escrow, CD Posted copy, Activation disabling unlock code in the installer (to be released at end of life), DRM free after 1 year, etc, etc) that I will be able to use it for the forseeable future and I'll buy it. Until then, no.

  • DarkwyndreDarkwyndre Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Meep3D wrote: »
    The reason for the Spore outrage wasn't SecuROM (not that it doesn't suck massively) despite what others in this thread claim. There have been much worse DRM methods (such as Starforce) that havn't garnered anything near the level of hatred in the past. It's the fact that in a few years, once the DRM servers are off, everyone who bought Spore will no longer be able to play it is the problem.

    Go read the massive amazon comment threads again. SecuROM was the huge outcry.

    Playstation Network ID : EasySleeze
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