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[Polygamy] Will it legally stand or fall before the charter
Posts
One person can't support a harem on a single income?
Maddie: "I am not!"
Riley: "You're a marsupial!"
Maddie: "I am a placental mammal!"
It's truly unfortunate.
Also shocking!
Maddie: "I am not!"
Riley: "You're a marsupial!"
Maddie: "I am a placental mammal!"
It's the great failure of our society that not every man in our country can live the lifestyle of an Arabian prince.
Every man a Sultan, as I always say.
It's pretty silly to say that those things are on the same scale as a divorce.
Whatever the original reasons for the laws that now exist, I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing that polygamy should stay illegal because it is icky.
Once again, what are the logical reasons for banning polygamy which current laws don't already cover, and why is it so special that the logic behind banning it shouldn't be applied to other situations?
Also, I already addressed that welfare statistic pages ago. All it tells me is that families get to a point where they're too large to financially sustain themselves. The marital status of the parents is pretty much irrelevant.
No, you're arguing that illegal things occur among polygamists. Fine, I concede that. Prosecute them for the illegal things. What, then, is your argument against non-criminal polygamists, if you can't fall back on boogeyman arguments? This is a causation/correlation logical failure. And you all are STILL arguing based on a biased sample set. Why should I accept your assertions if the foundations of them are shaky?
Once the LDS nuts stop their shenanigans it will be a harder sell, but for now I think you've got me convinced.
STEAM ID
Not always.
See: my current plan.
It's a flat rate for "family."
Because there's generally some upper limit to the number of kids a couple will squeeze out. It may be high (7, 10, whatever) but eventually a woman will either no longer be able to conceive/carry to term (if only due to age).
Seven wives would very well mean seventy children. For a total of seventy-seven dependents.
See the issue?
This almost makes me want to make it legal, so we can start tracking it and determine who's right.
Almost.
As it is, I'm pretty confident that people like the FLDS (who may be of any faith, or none, mind you) are the norm. At least in the US.
Man, would that even be illegal? I'm pretty sure simply banging them both is legal in at least some states...it's not until you start treating them as wives (or husbands) that you cross into polygamy territory. Which requires more than a sexual relationship, or even cohabitation, no?
That bolded? There aren't necessarily any other laws covering that either (unlike stat-rape). Especially if we're talking about 18-year-old boys. And yes, I know that other 18-year-olds get turned out of the house as well, but see below. Also, those 18-year-olds will generally have resources outside their home, like friends...they haven't been brought up in isolated communities.
Non-heroin-addicts commit burglaries as well, we still make that illegal. Just because Bad Thing X happens absent Y doesn't mean we shouldn't make Y illegal when Bad Thing X happens absurdly often in the presence of Y.
And yes, polygamous relationships happen outside of fundamental Mormonism...but anywhere that they happen in any concentration (regardless of religion) there tend to be the same issues.
The biggest is failing to register births. As mentioned. As it stands, the government largely depends on people to, you know, take care of that themselves...it generally happens at the hospital, or it can be filed elsewhere. But the point is that the biggest enforcement of birth registration is the fact that it's more or less required out in the rest of society for various reasons.
Less so when you live in a compound and your parents make your clothes, you go to a school run by your church, etc.
And when you have a bunch of kids who are raised communally (and can't or won't identify actual individual parents), may not even know their own ages (or will lie to protect their community), and don't have birth certificates, how exactly do you determine if statutory rape (or incest, for that matter) is occurring?
However I'm failing to find any way for the government to compel citizens to file such records that won't be intrusive or problematic, especially on the enforcement end.
Polygamy, as it is widely practiced, is inherently evil.
If your position is that polygamy, in a Platonic ideal form in a perfect world, is not evil... well gee that's great and I agree. I'd rather we have laws that function in the society we have, not a perfect hypothetical society that only exists in somebody's head.
What are the foundations of your assertions that there are a large swath of regular ol polygamists living in completely healthy relationships that will be greatly affected by polygamy remaining illegal?
Private ownership of firearms (theoretically...I don't want to argue these here) performs other necessary functions. Such as facilitating self-defense, hunting (yes, subsistence hunting is important in some areas), common defense, and defense against a tyrannical government.
Absent those, I'd say ban the fuck out of them. Because yeah, the downsides really suck.
Most anti-gun activists are anti-gun for pretty much this reason (they don't acknowledge these necessary functions).
So, can you give my any equivalent necessary functions that polygamy performs?
EDIT: Because the downsides have already been well-covered, of course.
So, what you're saying is that you're not a libertarian?
Jeff, I dunno about government being morally required to recognize marriage, and it has pretty much no bearing on my thoughts about the subject. If it recognizes marriage as a legal institution, though, I think that it should recognize all marriages that are between people who are legally recognized as being able to consent/enter into contracts.
Such as sisters and brothers? Mother and 18 year old son?
You might want to think about that position a bit more.
Will they be remarkably harder to investigate and prosecute? Yes.
Does polygamy offer any benefits to society to justify this? No.
EDIT: Keep in mind that I also think that polygamy, as commonly practiced in North America, is also pretty much inherently bad.
I have none, it being illegal and all and people not wanting to volunteer information about them being criminals. But see, I know for certain your sample set is biased, and by using it as justification for making polygamy illegal, you're already tipping the scales in your favor. Are you saying that it's logically consistent to argue that absence of evidence equals evidence of absence?
No, it doesn't eliminate it.
But it does reduce the frequency.
For instance, if marijuana were legal I'd probably be high right now. Readily available at my local corner store and zero concern about prosecution or failing any stupid drug test? Why the fuck not?
I don't think illegality does much to stop 12- to 24-year-olds...but eventually when you get a little older and have a little more to lose and more responsibilities, the potential downsides do cause at least some people to reconsider.
I'd think this would be doubly so for something that's generally a little harder to hide (without living in a place where pioneer dresses are considered the latest fashion) like polygamy.
Most Polygamist sects do not get legally married to any of their wives. They use "spiritual marriage". This means it doesnt require Parental Consent at all. The anti-polygamy laws are the only way to really crack down on things like this without causing undue burden on the rest of society.
Speaking for myself, I would be more interested in helping to get Anti-Polygamy laws stricken from the books, when the majority of polygamists became more interested in stopping the child rape, abuse, abandonment, and emotional/psychological/spiritual enslavement that they very actively turn a blind eye to.
Aren't those prohibited mainly because their offspring would be impaired? Fine, I'll amend my statement: marriage between people who can give legal consent and that won't result in retarded incest-babies should be legal.
mcdermott: How does legalizing polygamy make it harder to find and prosecute people for abuse? Are girls suddenly gonna stop coming forward or something? I don't think that it's the bonds of polygamy that are keeping the abused from coming forward, it's their religion and culture that they're living in.
Except for the family plans it is all amortized in their actuarial tables as far as I understand. So no, at least on my plan, your company wouldn't be required to pay any more, other than maybe an extremely small increase in the 'family' category as a whole to account for the fairly small number of people involved in polygamous relationships.
If I marry three women, I'll feel the uncontrollable need to marry underage girls too? Or let someone else do the same? I didn't know I was such a bastard.
Incestuous marriage is illegal because of the very, very high probability than an incestuous partnership is abusive in some way. The offspring have nothing to do with it - we still let people with inheritable genetic diseases marry.
Oh, in that case, a couple of shows I saw on Discovery (or Nat. Geo, I think) that showed black American Muslims engaging in the practice. It seemed pretty above board to me, and apparently it's a trend that's been growing. I wish there was more information for me to base my opinion on, but there isn't, so I'm trying to approach it logically.
Actually the rate of birth defects in sibling incest is about 1 in 3-4% of births. Much higher than the general population, but it's only a major social issue when you have whole communities engaging in incest and compounding birth defects on top of birth defects over multiple generations. Beyond that, not all marriages result in pregnancy anyway.
In other words, sibling incest is not inherently evil, it just results in social ills when widely practiced in certain communities.
*cough*
No one in this thread has asserted this.
Abuse victims in general come forward very infrequently, I'd say that an even stronger structure of controlling adult figures would make that less likely.
http://troublethinking.wordpress.com (Updated Wed) http://twitter.com/#!/Durandal4532
Where is the evidence whatsoever that it reduces the incidence at all amongst those for which there are large downsides to polygamy? Sure, for an average law abiding citizen, making polygamy illegal means that he is less likely to engage in it. But that citizen also isn't going around peddling underage brides, so it is a non-starter. If you legalize it, he isn't all of a sudden going to start looking around for a gaggle of 12 year olds to wed. So, I think it is disingenous to suggest that keeping polygamy illegal is doing much of anything to stop its use as a tool of oppression.
Furthermore, people keep repeatedly stating that FLDS cults are the majority of polygamists, where is this assertion supported anywhere?
And your arguments so far have been pretty sucky and unconvincing. There, now that we've gotten the condescending d-bag part of this conversation out of the way, can we get back to you presenting a cogent case that addresses my concerns?
There's also this, which is somewhat related:
I have seen no evidence of large communities of non-fundamentalist non-misogynist polygamists living anywhere in North America. There is significant evidence of large communities of fundamentalist misogynist polygamists living in Utah and bordering states.
My God. I want to enter a polygamist relationship with you.
Pretty much. I have no real problem with incest in the theoretical sense. Personally, my sister's bad in bed, but whatever. The reason I don't mind the taboo is that it's generally a detrimental thing when practiced by many members of a community at once, and it tends to favor screwed-up power relationships, especially if it's parent-child.
http://troublethinking.wordpress.com (Updated Wed) http://twitter.com/#!/Durandal4532
The arguments against polygamy have revolved around abuse of girls and forced marriage. No one's said it explicitly, but the implication continues to be that polygamy -> abusing underaged girls.
Neither of those posts state or imply that if you marry three women you will then automatically marry underage women. What are you trying to say here?
Again, in a vacuum or ideal world, polygamy is not inherently bad.
As practiced in America, different story.
What does it take for you to recognize that a practice should be illegal?
That's an honest question. Slightly rephrased, what do you believe the law is for?
I guess, if you really wanted to, we could go over the social reasons why the two seem to correlate. Though no, I wouldn't suggest that you individually would do so.
What? How do those posts not say that? You said yourself: