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GT: batshido Hit me up on ME3.
Or are just fucking tired of "the south" being used as an insult.
And some of live in the South and are tired of constantly being insulted by people who should know better.
At the same time, the repeated claims that someone flying the Confederate flag isn't projecting an image of racism and generalized stupidity is kind of silly.
GT: batshido Hit me up on ME3.
It's the contentious nature of the board. Make a 'George W. was a good president' thread and it will be filled with hate against the former commander in chief. Make a 'George W. was a bad president' and people will rally behind W. citing what he did about AIDS relief.
Sooo...if someone made a thread that was referred positively to the Confederacy, it'd fill with hate against the old South quicker.
Not a big deal, I know.
Well yeah because those titles attract different kinds of people.
There's always going to be two sides in every thread, the realists and the absolutists.
Now, all that is an indirect backdrop to the debates people get into, where they seek to argue that really the Civil War wasn't about slavery or really the Confederate flag isn't a bad thing. For many, such as myself when I used to argue from those points of view, what was really going on was that I had a general sense that somehow history and society was being unfair to the region I identify with, and I had a certain faith in that general sense, but not exactly sure where it applied specifically. So I was trying to take that general anxiety and slap it onto discussions of history and politics and such, and then, quite innocently, take it too far and try to argue beyond a sensible conclusion about the causes of the Civil War or the nature of the institution of slavery. In short: denial, but a somewhat understandable denial. I hold a viewpoint on those issues that is still more "moderate" than I believe common wisdom holds, but also more accepting of reality.
The South, as a people, tend to make a lot of excuses for the Confederacy ("it wasn't about slavery" is really my favorite), romanticize it tremendously, and many Southerners continue to fly Confederate flags, while proclaiming the whole time that "it isn't racist" and "it doesn't mean what everybody thinks it means." Then, there's another group of non-flag-fliers who have decided that acting as apologists for those people is the best way to improve people's perception of the South, and I really don't know why.
How so?
Actual Play: Mage: the Awakening - At the Edge of All Things
2. Whether or not the Confederate flag represents slavery, racism or hillbillies, one thing it does represent is TREASON.
whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
Now obviously, flying a flag doesn't count as treason. But it does say, I support Treason. I'd say we should put anyone who flies it on a watch list, tap their phones and waterboard the crap out of them.
The South will rise again? Not on my watch...
Fine, instead of "stereotype," pretend I used the word "generality." Happy?
And if you show me a historian who says that the Civil War wasn't fought primarily over slavery, I'll show you a man whose degree isn't worth the fucking paper it's printed on.
And "generality" is just as crap as stereotype.
GT: batshido Hit me up on ME3.
The same can't be said for the Confederate flag.
GT: batshido Hit me up on ME3.
good question! I'm tempted to say both.
...
both.
the two tend to go hand in hand, no?
edit: they can be BOTH!
What's an acceptable amount of slavery? Slavery in the northern US was tiny compared to slavery in the southern US, which itself was tiny compared compared to slavery in the Caribbean.
Does this mean German states like Saarland and Westphalia get credit because they had less Holocaust than Bavaria?
Like Elki said, it's useful for racists to openly identify themselves, so that you know who and where they are. They're not going to turn into non-dipshits just because they put away their flags. And as MLK found out when he went to Chicago's Marquette Park, there are plenty of violent racists who don't fly the Confederate flag at all. In fact, King described the reaction of Chicago whites as more hostile and hateful than anything he had experienced in Selma, Birmingham, Atlanta, etc.
The overt racists you can see coming, and are fairly easily marginalized. It's the covert ones you have to be on the lookout for.
THIS! let them keep the flags. watch them. then put them in jail for possesion of illegal firearms and narcotics. also for their bad teeth and mullets.
After twentysomething pages I get the distinct impression you have no idea what you're arguing about, and that you imagine you have scored some sort of rhetorical point since nobody has produced a mathematical equation proving that the confederate flag symbolizes thus-and-so.
Actual Play: Mage: the Awakening - At the Edge of All Things
yeah. too much time in ohio. I also feel like if I flew a YAY Al Qaeda flag it might warrent observation. At least so long as we live in a state with no right to privacy.
GT: batshido Hit me up on ME3.
Slavery was illegal in the Caribbean well before 1860.
German states like Saarland and Westphalia are not held accountable for the Holocaust no. Neither is Bavaria. Nazi German is. South Carolina is not blamed for the slaughter of Native Americans, the United States is.
Birmingham Alabama isn't held accountable for slavery, Alabama is. The national Confederate policy was eternal slavery supported by armed treason. Alabama chose to join the Confederacy and thus is also blamed for that.
When policy is determined at a national level the nation is blamed. When policy is at the state level, states are blamed. Its not that tough a concept
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Tell me, do you have a problem with the Union Jack? Because that was flown over far more enslaved peoples than the Confederate flag (which isn't actually the "Confederate" flag in the first place, but a combination of the Confederate Navy Jack and the Confederate battle flag) ever was.
Education is different in the north and south. A history lesson about the civil war will be DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT.
When I took a 300 level civil war course from Purdue Universities department of history. It was VERY pro union and cast the south as quite the aggressor and painted the confederacy in quite a negative light.
This same course taken at VMI had an almost 180 degree slant. The north were aggressors and the south were valiant homeland defenders. Now why does this happen. They are both using the same source material and I mean history does have facts. so how do we end up with two different stories?
Well part of the reason is that in the 40 years following the civil war. Especially in the south there was some serious revisionist history going on. When all the old soldiers started getting old and dying they wrote memoirs that while a version of actual events wasn't exactly the correct version. Some of these memoirs especially of southern generals became very popular in the south and lead to a perception that the north was pretty much dicks. (I mean they didn't like those guys anyway so this isn't much of a stretch.) They downplay the importance of slavery in their fighting and focus more on defending the homeland. When in actual history this had nothing to do with it. South Carolina left because Lincoln was elected and the only reason that bothered them is because he was an abolitionist. Not because he had invaded anything. (you recall the south actually started the shooting)
Now we take all that into account. And then we have this issue with the confederate flag. While I have lived in northern Florida for the better part of 3 years now and it has always confused me why people would so proudly display this flag. When most of the modern world considers it racist and ignorant. Yet they are so proud of it. I think I have finally figured it out.
Most of these people have grown up in small rural areas and have that flag shown to them from a young age as a symbol of freedom and independence. Its the rebel flag. They use to rebel against ANYTHING they don't like. Be it blacks, spinach, or homework. To them it is as normal as apple pie. Also racism was very institutionalized down here and in pretty much any southerner over the age of 40 they have a very different view of racism then anyone from up north does. They will loudly proclaim to not be racist and fly that flag on their truck proudly.
They just have a very different perspective then people from the north do. Mainly because of education and their family structure. And is not lack of education, don't think I am saying they are ignorant. That is not the case. Their education is just Different then up north. The facts DO get changed.
It at first kind of bothered me. Now I just laugh because they honestly think it is not offensive. And they could give a rats ass if you do. I have been called a damn yankee more times than I can count and i was born and raised in virginia the home of the confederacy...
The Confederate flag flew over a country that was established for the purpose of perpetuating slavery. It existed for four years, all four years of which were spent doing one thing: fighting a war to protect slavery. The fucking flag is synonymous with the enslavement of black people in the U.S. It doesn't mean anything else because there's nothing else there for it to mean. There is no conceivable thing it could represent other than that, much like the Nazi flag, and if you're flying it and you're not aware of that, you're a goddamn gibbering retard, and if you're flying it and you are aware of that, you're a fucking racist asshole.
If you have two different methods of educating your citizens and the facts differ between them, then at least one of them is actually propaganda.
Something seems off there.
GT: batshido Hit me up on ME3.
And more likely, they both are.
VIRGINIA Military Institute.