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Interpretation, Plausible Denial and racially loaded imagery (NYPost cartoon)

PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas JeffersonRegistered User regular
edited February 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
Since its pretty far off the stimulus path ...
ElJeffe wrote: »
PantsB wrote: »
seasleepy wrote: »
On a somewhat on-topic note, have people heard about the clever editorial cartoon in NY Post today? And by clever I mean how the fuck could anyone possibly think that was okay in any way?

That's honestly one of the most racist political cartoons I've ever seen and that includes Civil War era cartoons

dot dot dot

If the intention was honestly chimp = black man hur, then yes, it is very racist.

I think it very unlikely that was the intention.

We may disagree.

Though we probably shouldn't do it in here, since it's not really stimulus-related.
This is the cartoon in question.

18delonas2.480.jpg

Now to me two police officers shooting a monkey (or chimp) and commenting that this monkey wrote the current stimulus bill is beyond racially loaded. I don't think one can plausibly claim the cartoonist wasn't making a racial reference (ie that black people = monkeys, a traditional racist slur) when explicitly saying the author of the stimulus bill, the US's first black President, was a monkey.

Given the nation's and NYC's history of police officers shooting African Americans in cold blood, this imagery is only strengthened.

The cartoonist, who has a history of cartoons that have been called racially tinged and/or bigoted in general, claims he was simply referencing a story where a pet chimp was shot by police after it attack its owners. The connection of this event to the stimulus bill seems beyond tenuous.

So does someone have to come out and explicitly say "Blacks are X" to be considered racist? Or is the thinnest veneer of plausible deniability enough? Or is it "I know it when I see it"?

In my opinion, the cartoonist can't reasonably claim he was not trying to make a racial statement either as a reflection of his own beliefs or to stir up controversy. Either way IMO he should be fired and the editor should be severely reprimanded at the least.

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Posts

  • JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2009
    The monkey = the dems.

    Not just Obama.

    People just like looking for racism because it's an easy way to push their agendas.

    JustinSane07 on
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I didn't see the racial overtones until you pointed them out.

    I just looked at it and thought "wow, that is a dumb comic."



    Even if it is racist, though, well, there's free speech and freedom of the press. I'm not a fan of bigots, but we have to allow them their soapboxes as well if we want to have ours.

    Evander on
  • RussellRussell Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I think a lot of people will see some racist commentary from this. As a political cartoonist who is supposed to deal with symbols to convey meaning, how could he not realize the implications of this cartoon?

    Russell on
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  • Richard_DastardlyRichard_Dastardly Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Personally, I'd give the artist the benefit of the doubt and just chaulk this up to unintentional (subconscious?) racism.

    Richard_Dastardly on
  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's either racist or makes no sense at all. I'm not sure which the cartoonist would prefer.

    deadonthestreet on
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Russell wrote: »
    As a political cartoonist who is supposed to deal with symbols to convey meaning, how could he not realize the implications of this cartoon?

    I WILL get behind this statement.

    There's no way that the cartoonist couldn't have realized that it could be taken this way. Either he intended it this way, or he simply didn't care. Either way, he's an ass.

    But he's still an ass with the right to express himself.

    Evander on
  • RussellRussell Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Also, honestly, how popular was that chimp story? How many people actually had that in mind when looking at this cartoon?

    Russell on
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  • Sir CarcassSir Carcass I have been shown the end of my world Round Rock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Obama wrote the bill all by himself?

    Huh. Where does he find the time.

    Sir Carcass on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's either racist or makes no sense at all. I'm not sure which the cartoonist would prefer.

    I keep wanting to assume it's a "Million Monkeys on a Million Typewriters" thing.

    Incenjucar on
  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    It's either racist or makes no sense at all. I'm not sure which the cartoonist would prefer.

    I keep wanting to assume it's a "Million Monkeys on a Million Typewriters" thing.
    Yeah that was my initial reaction as well

    Except it's one monkey

    deadonthestreet on
  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's not a funny cartoon. I also didn't pick up any racial connotation. Without the context of the earlier story (re: pet chimp being shot by the police) it's halfway between nonsensical and childishly stupid.

    Djeet on
  • Dunadan019Dunadan019 Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    i think im gonna claim that the cartoonist probably wasn't commenting on racism....

    he does often use racist themes (after looking back a month at the cartoons)

    hes not really that funny, i did kinda smirk at this one.

    11122008.jpg

    Dunadan019 on
  • PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Some of the cartoonists other works

    When NJ started to allow same sex civil unions
    post_marriage_lg.jpg

    When NYC decided to launch an Arab-themed school (they have other similar themed public schools for gays, Jews and other groups
    08082007.jpg

    Midterm elections
    11102006.jpg

    PantsB on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Russell wrote: »
    As a political cartoonist who is supposed to deal with symbols to convey meaning, how could he not realize the implications of this cartoon?

    I WILL get behind this statement.

    There's no way that the cartoonist couldn't have realized that it could be taken this way. Either he intended it this way, or he simply didn't care. Either way, he's an ass.

    But he's still an ass with the right to express himself.

    Agreed.

    He MAY not have been trying to be explicitely racist. But you'd have to be pretty dumb not to see the obvious racial context that can be drawn from it.

    shryke on
  • SpoonySpoony Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's either racist or makes no sense at all. I'm not sure which the cartoonist would prefer.

    "Monkey" has taken on a more neutral meaning in the past few decades. I've heard people use it to describe both people doing menial work (register monkey) or idiotic people in general (those monkeys in Washington). I'd like to think that the cartoonist was making the point that the stimulus bill was so poorly constructed that a monkey could have done it, but it also seems odd that a political cartoonist wouldn't be aware of the racial connotations.

    My verdict: Not intentional, but the cartoonist is an idiot. Also, it's not a funny cartoon.

    Spoony on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Djeet wrote: »
    It's not a funny cartoon.

    You just described 99.9 percent of all political cartoons. Political cartoons need to die.

    Couscous on
  • lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's a bit of a reach to say that this cartoon implies that black people are equivalent to monkeys...

    To me, he took a fantastic news story (cops shooting an ape? bizarre) and used it as a backdrop to criticize the stimulus bill as being incoherent or poorly thought out, as you might expect from a monkey.

    edit: Also, not witty or funny

    lazegamer on
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  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Frankly given how often I have heard of senators/congressmen's performance likened to a chimpanzee I think they are just looking for things to cry racism.

    Detharin on
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Spoony wrote: »
    It's either racist or makes no sense at all. I'm not sure which the cartoonist would prefer.

    "Monkey" has taken on a more neutral meaning in the past few decades. I've heard people use it to describe both people doing menial work (register monkey) or idiotic people in general (those monkeys in Washington). I'd like to think that the cartoonist was making the point that the stimulus bill was so poorly constructed that a monkey could have done it, but it also seems odd that a political cartoonist wouldn't be aware of the racial connotations.

    My verdict: Not intentional, but the cartoonist is an idiot. Also, it's not a funny cartoon.

    I'd say we'd have to go to that one poster's comment that says "any sufficiently advanced ignorance is indistinguishable from malice" and see if it applies here. It doesn't really matter if he was being a racist or not, although he clearly is against arabs, he's a moron and I'm not sure why he has a job making cartoons that are supposed to be witty.

    override367 on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    The NYpost being retarded is hardly even news

    nexuscrawler on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Russell wrote: »
    Also, honestly, how popular was that chimp story? How many people actually had that in mind when looking at this cartoon?

    Well, the chimp story occurred within the NYC metro area (Stamford), so the NY Post's intended audience would be familiar with it.
    It's either racist or makes no sense at all. I'm not sure which the cartoonist would prefer.

    I gotta go with the "million monkeys typewriters" thing. I've heard of things being referred to as written or made by chimps before in a non-racist context. It's at least plausible.

    On the other hand, given the context of his other work, I have a hard time believing he didn't at least notice that the connotation was possible (or outright intend it).



    In reference to this specific instance (rather than the more general "plausible deniability and racism" aspect) I think people need to let it go. The man is the President of the United States, and at least one of if not the single most powerful man in the world. Additionally, he's going to be the target of a lot of criticism, every day, for the next few years. We're going to need to start holding our protests for more overt racism, if we want to have any chance of being taken seriously beyond about 2010.

    mcdermott on
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's either racist or makes no sense at all. I'm not sure which the cartoonist would prefer.

    This.

    Really, I can't see what the joke would be, except to use the racist connotations. Either he's calling the President a monkey or... not sure what.

    That said, First Amendment, blah blah. This guy can draw racist comics all the live long day for all I care. If people are offended by it, then it's the NYPost's problem for printing it, they'll probably lose business.

    KalTorak on
  • PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    We're going to need to start holding our protests for more overt racism, if we want to have any chance of being taken seriously beyond about 2010.

    How more overt can you get than calling him a monkey? Does he have to be chucking spears in tribal garb? Does the cartoonist just have to write <word we can't say on PA> over and over as his cartoon before its overt?

    PantsB on
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  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against Russian warships) Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's either racist or makes no sense at all. I'm not sure which the cartoonist would prefer.
    It makes perfect sense to me and it isn't racist. I saw it as 'the stimulus bill looks like something a crazy monkey pounded out.'

    Of course, looking at his other work, it seems that though my interpretation is non-retarded, the cartoonist apparently isn't.

    Gabriel_Pitt on
  • lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    We're going to need to start holding our protests for more overt racism, if we want to have any chance of being taken seriously beyond about 2010.

    How more overt can you get than calling him a monkey? Does he have to be chucking spears in tribal garb? Does the cartoonist just have to write <word we can't say on PA> over and over as his cartoon before its overt?

    He would probably need to be a lot more explicit that the monkey is Obama for one ...

    lazegamer on
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  • Lord YodLord Yod Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I would care a lot more if it were in some publication with a bit more reputation than the New York Post.

    Lord Yod on
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  • an_altan_alt Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I was thinking "800 pound gorilla" ~ "800 billion dollar package" when I first saw it, not the typewriter analogy, nor that Obama is a monkey.

    an_alt on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    We're going to need to start holding our protests for more overt racism, if we want to have any chance of being taken seriously beyond about 2010.

    How more overt can you get than calling him a monkey? Does he have to be chucking spears in tribal garb? Does the cartoonist just have to write <word we can't say on PA> over and over as his cartoon before its overt?

    It's not even apparent he was specifically referencing Obama, since it's not like Obama single-handedly wrote the thing. That said, his track record with racist overtones (though they've previously been limited to arab = terrorist) kills some of his benefit of the doubt.

    ElJeffe on
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  • DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    My brain made these connections when I saw the comic:

    Stimulous bill = written by Obama
    Obama = black
    Black = monkey
    Shot dead by police for no reason = black

    Maybe if the paper the day before had headlines involving monkeys that had nothing to do with blacks I would make some other connection and find it funny, but for me this is racist, tasteless, unfunny and unacceptable.

    Historical connections/comparison/uses for certain words are not forgotten as easily as you might think, it's the whole reason some people object to being called negro, or black.

    Dman on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    The guy is just a retard.
    10092008on6.th.jpg
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    10012008wz6.th.jpg
    09252008bf8.th.jpg
    09262008xt0.th.jpg

    Couscous on
  • LuqLuq Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Yesterday a monkey was shot by police, or at least there was a story about it yesterday.
    +
    "This thing is so dumb it could've been written by a bunch of monkeys."

    That is what I immediately thought of when I read it. Obama didn't write the stimulus bill. There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a monkey. To those taking umbrage at this, you are the reason there is an argument against political correctness.

    Luq on
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  • OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited February 2009
    Given how many people in this thread (on a highly Liberal forum) didn't see any racism, I don't think it's unreasonable at all.

    Organichu on
  • PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    We're going to need to start holding our protests for more overt racism, if we want to have any chance of being taken seriously beyond about 2010.

    How more overt can you get than calling him a monkey? Does he have to be chucking spears in tribal garb? Does the cartoonist just have to write <word we can't say on PA> over and over as his cartoon before its overt?

    It's not even apparent he was specifically referencing Obama, since it's not like Obama single-handedly wrote the thing. That said, his track record with racist overtones (though they've previously been limited to arab = terrorist) kills some of his benefit of the doubt.

    I don't really see how it could be interpreted otherwise to be honest. I know that years of assholes like Sharpton Crying Wolf has made people resistant to making these judgments but you've got a cartoonist who had painted Obama as the founder of the stimulus less than a week before
    02082009.jpg
    and who has an extensive record of prejudicial and racist cartoons saying that a monkey wrote the stimulus bill that Obama is the key and most prominent force behind (and the biggest author).
    Dman wrote: »
    Shot dead by police for no reason = black

    I mean to mention this as well. I initially didn't even remember the story about the chimpanzee, my first thought was to two cops shooting an unarmed black guy

    PantsB on
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  • PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Luq wrote: »
    There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a monkey.

    So does that make Bush the second Black president, after Clinton? I always thought he was a white man from Texas, color me surprised.
    To those taking umbrage at this, you are the reason there is an argument against political correctness.

    Since apparently "noticing blatant racist imagery" is your definition of "political correctness," I would like to thank you for the compliment. Our services are provided for free, you are very welcome.

    PotatoNinja on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Yeah, given this guy's track record, he may just be stupid.

    Fencingsax on
  • OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited February 2009
    Just how racist are these dude's cartoons? So far of the ones posted only one was racially inflammatory.

    Organichu on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    We're going to need to start holding our protests for more overt racism, if we want to have any chance of being taken seriously beyond about 2010.

    How more overt can you get than calling him a monkey? Does he have to be chucking spears in tribal garb? Does the cartoonist just have to write <word we can't say on PA> over and over as his cartoon before its overt?

    It's not even apparent he was specifically referencing Obama, since it's not like Obama single-handedly wrote the thing. That said, his track record with racist overtones (though they've previously been limited to arab = terrorist) kills some of his benefit of the doubt.

    Yeah, I thought of it along the 'million monkeys on a million typewriters' route rather than 'our President's a black and those people are monkeys' vibe.

    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.

    moniker on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    09102002wz5.th.jpg
    13409006b490b05016al4.th.jpg
    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    Couscous on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Hmm, in the span of two minutes reading this thread, I've gone from "WTF RACIST" to "eh, maybe he's referencing a million monkeys with typewriters" to "yeah, he probably meant to make the racist undertone subtle and failed miserably". Dude's got a hard on for equating Arabs with terrorists.

    wwtMask on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Couscous wrote: »
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    09102002wz5.th.jpg
    13409006b490b05016al4.th.jpg
    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    If you don't lol at the cartoon clearly the libruls have been influencing you with their nefarious political correctness.

    wwtMask on
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