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Interpretation, Plausible Denial and racially loaded imagery (NYPost cartoon)

PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
edited February 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
Since its pretty far off the stimulus path ...
ElJeffe wrote: »
PantsB wrote: »
seasleepy wrote: »
On a somewhat on-topic note, have people heard about the clever editorial cartoon in NY Post today? And by clever I mean how the fuck could anyone possibly think that was okay in any way?

That's honestly one of the most racist political cartoons I've ever seen and that includes Civil War era cartoons

dot dot dot

If the intention was honestly chimp = black man hur, then yes, it is very racist.

I think it very unlikely that was the intention.

We may disagree.

Though we probably shouldn't do it in here, since it's not really stimulus-related.
This is the cartoon in question.

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Now to me two police officers shooting a monkey (or chimp) and commenting that this monkey wrote the current stimulus bill is beyond racially loaded. I don't think one can plausibly claim the cartoonist wasn't making a racial reference (ie that black people = monkeys, a traditional racist slur) when explicitly saying the author of the stimulus bill, the US's first black President, was a monkey.

Given the nation's and NYC's history of police officers shooting African Americans in cold blood, this imagery is only strengthened.

The cartoonist, who has a history of cartoons that have been called racially tinged and/or bigoted in general, claims he was simply referencing a story where a pet chimp was shot by police after it attack its owners. The connection of this event to the stimulus bill seems beyond tenuous.

So does someone have to come out and explicitly say "Blacks are X" to be considered racist? Or is the thinnest veneer of plausible deniability enough? Or is it "I know it when I see it"?

In my opinion, the cartoonist can't reasonably claim he was not trying to make a racial statement either as a reflection of his own beliefs or to stir up controversy. Either way IMO he should be fired and the editor should be severely reprimanded at the least.

PantsB on
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Spoiler:
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Posts

  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Frankly given how often I have heard of senators/congressmen's performance likened to a chimpanzee I think they are just looking for things to cry racism.

    If I was kidnapped, woke up in a lab, told they were going to replace my vocal cords with those of Tony Jay, and lock me in a sound booth until the day I die I would look those bastards right in the eye and say "Alright you sons of bitches lets do this. This one is for the children."
  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Spoony wrote: »
    It's either racist or makes no sense at all. I'm not sure which the cartoonist would prefer.

    "Monkey" has taken on a more neutral meaning in the past few decades. I've heard people use it to describe both people doing menial work (register monkey) or idiotic people in general (those monkeys in Washington). I'd like to think that the cartoonist was making the point that the stimulus bill was so poorly constructed that a monkey could have done it, but it also seems odd that a political cartoonist wouldn't be aware of the racial connotations.

    My verdict: Not intentional, but the cartoonist is an idiot. Also, it's not a funny cartoon.

    I'd say we'd have to go to that one poster's comment that says "any sufficiently advanced ignorance is indistinguishable from malice" and see if it applies here. It doesn't really matter if he was being a racist or not, although he clearly is against arabs, he's a moron and I'm not sure why he has a job making cartoons that are supposed to be witty.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    The NYpost being retarded is hardly even news

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Russell wrote: »
    Also, honestly, how popular was that chimp story? How many people actually had that in mind when looking at this cartoon?

    Well, the chimp story occurred within the NYC metro area (Stamford), so the NY Post's intended audience would be familiar with it.
    It's either racist or makes no sense at all. I'm not sure which the cartoonist would prefer.

    I gotta go with the "million monkeys typewriters" thing. I've heard of things being referred to as written or made by chimps before in a non-racist context. It's at least plausible.

    On the other hand, given the context of his other work, I have a hard time believing he didn't at least notice that the connotation was possible (or outright intend it).



    In reference to this specific instance (rather than the more general "plausible deniability and racism" aspect) I think people need to let it go. The man is the President of the United States, and at least one of if not the single most powerful man in the world. Additionally, he's going to be the target of a lot of criticism, every day, for the next few years. We're going to need to start holding our protests for more overt racism, if we want to have any chance of being taken seriously beyond about 2010.

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's either racist or makes no sense at all. I'm not sure which the cartoonist would prefer.

    This.

    Really, I can't see what the joke would be, except to use the racist connotations. Either he's calling the President a monkey or... not sure what.

    That said, First Amendment, blah blah. This guy can draw racist comics all the live long day for all I care. If people are offended by it, then it's the NYPost's problem for printing it, they'll probably lose business.

  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    mcdermott wrote: »
    We're going to need to start holding our protests for more overt racism, if we want to have any chance of being taken seriously beyond about 2010.

    How more overt can you get than calling him a monkey? Does he have to be chucking spears in tribal garb? Does the cartoonist just have to write <word we can't say on PA> over and over as his cartoon before its overt?

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    Spoiler:
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Damn you, eidetic memory! Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's either racist or makes no sense at all. I'm not sure which the cartoonist would prefer.
    It makes perfect sense to me and it isn't racist. I saw it as 'the stimulus bill looks like something a crazy monkey pounded out.'

    Of course, looking at his other work, it seems that though my interpretation is non-retarded, the cartoonist apparently isn't.

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  • lazegamerlazegamer Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    We're going to need to start holding our protests for more overt racism, if we want to have any chance of being taken seriously beyond about 2010.

    How more overt can you get than calling him a monkey? Does he have to be chucking spears in tribal garb? Does the cartoonist just have to write <word we can't say on PA> over and over as his cartoon before its overt?

    He would probably need to be a lot more explicit that the monkey is Obama for one ...

    Surprise.
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  • Lord YodLord Yod Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I would care a lot more if it were in some publication with a bit more reputation than the New York Post.

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  • an_altan_alt Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I was thinking "800 pound gorilla" ~ "800 billion dollar package" when I first saw it, not the typewriter analogy, nor that Obama is a monkey.

    Pony wrote:
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    We're going to need to start holding our protests for more overt racism, if we want to have any chance of being taken seriously beyond about 2010.

    How more overt can you get than calling him a monkey? Does he have to be chucking spears in tribal garb? Does the cartoonist just have to write <word we can't say on PA> over and over as his cartoon before its overt?

    It's not even apparent he was specifically referencing Obama, since it's not like Obama single-handedly wrote the thing. That said, his track record with racist overtones (though they've previously been limited to arab = terrorist) kills some of his benefit of the doubt.

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  • DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    My brain made these connections when I saw the comic:

    Stimulous bill = written by Obama
    Obama = black
    Black = monkey
    Shot dead by police for no reason = black

    Maybe if the paper the day before had headlines involving monkeys that had nothing to do with blacks I would make some other connection and find it funny, but for me this is racist, tasteless, unfunny and unacceptable.

    Historical connections/comparison/uses for certain words are not forgotten as easily as you might think, it's the whole reason some people object to being called negro, or black.

  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    The guy is just a retard.
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  • LuqLuq Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Yesterday a monkey was shot by police, or at least there was a story about it yesterday.
    +
    "This thing is so dumb it could've been written by a bunch of monkeys."

    That is what I immediately thought of when I read it. Obama didn't write the stimulus bill. There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a monkey. To those taking umbrage at this, you are the reason there is an argument against political correctness.

    steam_sig.png
  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Given how many people in this thread (on a highly Liberal forum) didn't see any racism, I don't think it's unreasonable at all.

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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    We're going to need to start holding our protests for more overt racism, if we want to have any chance of being taken seriously beyond about 2010.

    How more overt can you get than calling him a monkey? Does he have to be chucking spears in tribal garb? Does the cartoonist just have to write <word we can't say on PA> over and over as his cartoon before its overt?

    It's not even apparent he was specifically referencing Obama, since it's not like Obama single-handedly wrote the thing. That said, his track record with racist overtones (though they've previously been limited to arab = terrorist) kills some of his benefit of the doubt.

    I don't really see how it could be interpreted otherwise to be honest. I know that years of assholes like Sharpton Crying Wolf has made people resistant to making these judgments but you've got a cartoonist who had painted Obama as the founder of the stimulus less than a week before
    Spoiler:
    and who has an extensive record of prejudicial and racist cartoons saying that a monkey wrote the stimulus bill that Obama is the key and most prominent force behind (and the biggest author).
    Dman wrote: »
    Shot dead by police for no reason = black

    I mean to mention this as well. I initially didn't even remember the story about the chimpanzee, my first thought was to two cops shooting an unarmed black guy

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    Spoiler:
  • PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Luq wrote: »
    There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a monkey.

    So does that make Bush the second Black president, after Clinton? I always thought he was a white man from Texas, color me surprised.
    To those taking umbrage at this, you are the reason there is an argument against political correctness.

    Since apparently "noticing blatant racist imagery" is your definition of "political correctness," I would like to thank you for the compliment. Our services are provided for free, you are very welcome.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Yeah, given this guy's track record, he may just be stupid.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Just how racist are these dude's cartoons? So far of the ones posted only one was racially inflammatory.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    We're going to need to start holding our protests for more overt racism, if we want to have any chance of being taken seriously beyond about 2010.

    How more overt can you get than calling him a monkey? Does he have to be chucking spears in tribal garb? Does the cartoonist just have to write <word we can't say on PA> over and over as his cartoon before its overt?

    It's not even apparent he was specifically referencing Obama, since it's not like Obama single-handedly wrote the thing. That said, his track record with racist overtones (though they've previously been limited to arab = terrorist) kills some of his benefit of the doubt.

    Yeah, I thought of it along the 'million monkeys on a million typewriters' route rather than 'our President's a black and those people are monkeys' vibe.

    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    09102002wz5.th.jpg
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    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Hmm, in the span of two minutes reading this thread, I've gone from "WTF RACIST" to "eh, maybe he's referencing a million monkeys with typewriters" to "yeah, he probably meant to make the racist undertone subtle and failed miserably". Dude's got a hard on for equating Arabs with terrorists.

    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Couscous wrote: »
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    09102002wz5.th.jpg
    13409006b490b05016al4.th.jpg
    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    If you don't lol at the cartoon clearly the libruls have been influencing you with their nefarious political correctness.

    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    The intent wasn't racist, but I see how you can get there when viewed in the context of older political cartoons/commentary in general comparing blacks & monkeys.

    That said, the reference is clearly to the "million chimpanzees and a million typewriters" or "the stimulus bill is stupid and was written by monkeys" and then connecting that to the rampaging chimp story of the other day. I don't think it means to draw the connection of either Obama = monkey or congress=monkey.

    steam_sig.png
  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Couscous wrote: »
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    09102002wz5.th.jpg
    13409006b490b05016al4.th.jpg
    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    What is that top one even saying? Osama's probably dead, good thing we didn't find him?

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    Those cartoons raped my brain and now my skull is full of idiot-spooge.

    Thanks a lot.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Couscous wrote: »
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    13409006b490b05016al4.th.jpg
    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    Okay, now that one pisses me right the fuck off. And I don't even like the vast majority of Liebeskind's work, but he has designed some beauties. In particular his Holocaust museum. But then I guess not making a neo-classical Roman temple to avarice makes you a terrorist.


    And what the fuck is Bert doing in there?

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    09102002wz5.th.jpg
    13409006b490b05016al4.th.jpg
    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    What is that top one even saying? Osama's probably dead, good thing we didn't find him?

    "lol arabs eaten by mice is funny"?

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    13409006b490b05016al4.th.jpg
    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    Okay, now that one pisses me right the fuck off. And I don't even like the vast majority of Liebeskind's work, but he has designed some beauties. In particular his Holocaust museum. But then I guess not making a neo-classical Roman temple to avarice makes you a terrorist.

    Oh, oh, now you've done it, Mr. Idiot Cartoonist. You've gone and pissed off the architect.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Now given how clearly stupid this guy is, how many people think that he is sophisticated enough to make a million monkeys with typewriters reference? I mean granted, he'd be using that reference wrong but given the intellectual level of his cartoons do you think he's even ever heard that expression?

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    Spoiler:
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    Now given how clearly stupid this guy is, how many people think that he is sophisticated enough to make a million monkeys with typewriters reference? I mean granted, he'd be using that reference wrong but given the intellectual level of his cartoons do you think he's even ever heard that expression?

    How much sophistication does it take to say, "Hur, you are stupid! Like a monkey!"?

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  • zeenyzeeny Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I said on the other thread, I didn't even realize what's wrong with the cartoon at first, as in, didn't get the racial context. After I understood why people are offended, I'd say that it was in pretty poor taste and either a badly thought out cartoon or a sad jest, but I still don't think there should be any consequences for the cartoonist as the cartoon does have a pretty good meaning outside racial context.

  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Hahaha, what the hell? That's such a weird melding of news stories for such an awful joke.

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    Spoiler:

    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    Okay, now that one pisses me right the fuck off. And I don't even like the vast majority of Liebeskind's work, but he has designed some beauties. In particular his Holocaust museum. But then I guess not making a neo-classical Roman temple to avarice makes you a terrorist.

    Oh, oh, now you've done it, Mr. Idiot Cartoonist. You've gone and pissed off the architect.

    If a pen is mightier than a sword my T-square coming down on the back of his head is going to feel like Thor's hammer.

    tea-1.jpg
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    I mean, I think it's reasonable to assert that there may have been a racial motive behind the cartoon. Where we part ways is "OMG that is so blatant and if you do not instantly link monkeys with the president you are bliiiiiiind."

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

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  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    [ed] Nevermind, see Jeffe's last 2 posts. That sums it up for me I think.

  • LuqLuq Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Luq wrote: »
    There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a monkey.

    So does that make Bush the second Black president, after Clinton? I always thought he was a white man from Texas, color me surprised.
    To those taking umbrage at this, you are the reason there is an argument against political correctness.
    Since apparently "noticing blatant racist imagery" is your definition of "political correctness," I would like to thank you for the compliment. Our services are provided for free, you are very welcome.

    How old are you? I am from Texas, I know quite a few racist people, and I've never heard this black people = monkey ... business. That was unfortunate. The guy is a douchebag but this was not a racist comic. If you are claiming it is a racist comic and taking umbrage you are headed to the John Wiley Price "black hole is a racist term' side of the spectrum.

    edit: Relevance of age is that I'm wondering if this is just a generational difference. No one in my peer group connected monkeys and black people today in our discussion group either.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    The guy loves retarded fat jokes that have been done a trillion times.
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    He is also probably a plagiarist:
    http://www.mattbors.com/2008/06/sean-delonas-worse-than-hack.html

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Luq wrote: »
    Luq wrote: »
    There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a monkey.

    So does that make Bush the second Black president, after Clinton? I always thought he was a white man from Texas, color me surprised.
    To those taking umbrage at this, you are the reason there is an argument against political correctness.
    Since apparently "noticing blatant racist imagery" is your definition of "political correctness," I would like to thank you for the compliment. Our services are provided for free, you are very welcome.

    How old are you? I am from Texas, I know quite a few racist people, and I've never heard this black people = monkey ... business. That was unfortunate. The guy is a douchebag but this was not a racist comic. If you are claiming it is a racist comic and taking umbrage you are headed to the John Wiley Price "black hole is a racist term' side of the spectrum.

    I thought 'porch monkey' was born out of Texas. Maybe it was Mississippi. You know what, fuck Mississippi regardless so let's just say it's from there.

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  • OrganichuOrganichu Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    Now given how clearly stupid this guy is, how many people think that he is sophisticated enough to make a million monkeys with typewriters reference? I mean granted, he'd be using that reference wrong but given the intellectual level of his cartoons do you think he's even ever heard that expression?

    You're being really hyperbolic here.

    XMSODhjrer45.gif
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