I've noticed a fair number of feminist writers are also fans of fat acceptance. I can kinda see where it's coming from (not judged on looks, women treated harsher than women for same level of obesity), but I have to say I'm really not a fan of the conflation. It leads to ridiculous comments such as ‘skinny women can’t be feminists’. I wish that wasn’t a serious quote from a respected feminist writer, but there you go. It’s damaging in the long run, we want to encourage a healthy view of food – eat what you want is just as dangerous as seeing food as a guilty pleasure (ugh I hate that shit), and paying attention to your health. I’d wager obesity is a far greater threat to your average girl than anorexia, especially so in the US and UK. Man or woman, paying attention to your body is something to be held aloft.
As for the overweight, they can change it. Don’t give me any of that bullshit. I used to be skinny, ridiculously so due to an extent to actual health reasons. I didn’t mope about how hard life was, I started trying to eat right and working out. And guess what? Shockingly it worked. Whilst I haven’t reached my ideal weight or level of health, I’m slowly getting there. I mean I've passed 200lb which was a big milestone for me.
Now this brings up the question of why should be criticise those in poor health? This is a difficult question, I still check myself for what true motive might lie there – my unexamined subtle prejudices. I think it is because I can’t comprehend people actually being happy to live a as self imposed cripples. That they can stay in such a state. I think modern circumstance drives them there. And that they need the encouragement to escape those pitfalls. Insults and derision may not be the best way to do this (to say the least). This doesn’t mean that we should tell people it’s okay to be so afflicted. I think that’s an awful message to send to people. Rather we should send the opposite one, if you aren’t Apollo that’s fine, just aim for it with what time and effort you can set aside.
I mean sure, if someone is well and truly happy to be obese or anorexic, good for them, I find it real hard to believe such people exist in any notable number though.
Nah obesity in a way is worse than alcoholism, barring extreme circumstances you don't have to drink, you have to eat something.
Interesting point. One might even say that a difficult option alcoholics have, that of going cold turkey, is denied to fat people, who have to eat to live, but have trouble stopping at a reasonable amount.
It is an issue, and why dieting alone is set to fail for most people. Changing your diet is important, but you need to exercise on top of it because exercise takes away one of the things that leads to obesity, being sedentary. By virtue of getting off your ass you can't be taking in empty calories at least while your exercising (well barring drinking soda/beer/having a sandwhich set up).
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I'm not sure I understand what the thread is about. Is it about not being a dick to people, or is it about accepting obesity as a disability? Because I certainly don't think it's right to look down at or disparage people because they are obese. That's dickish. However, I also don't think obesity is a disability unless you actually have some kind of biochemical impairment that leads to obesity.
What about clinical depression, bipolar disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, or any number of other psychological conditions that cause people to overeat or spurn exercise?
I don't think that clinical obesity should be treated as harmless, but this attitude of "I don't have any problem with fat people, but seriously fuck fat people." is extremely disturbing. How the fuck is it permissible to tell someone "it's OK that you're unacceptably disgusting, so long as you have a doctor's note"?
Obesity is a real, serious medical condition that should be treated with as much sympathy and care as any debilitating disease. Enablers, people who advocate eschewing treatment in lieu of some bullshit egalitarian crusade against looksism deserve to be called out for the harm they're doing, but that harm is absolutely inconsequential compared to the damage caused by this attitude of "sit up or shut up."
I'm not pointing the finger at any one person, I just thought Drez's post was a good jumping-off place for the point I wanted to make. Honestly the sentiment behind this whole thread makes me slightly ill.
All of those things are reasons you can put on weight. But exercise is a good treatment for clinical depression, bipolar disorder, etc. I'm not going all Tom Cruise on you here. I don't think vitamins and exercise are the ONLY treatments for those things, but I'm saying they are not magic cards you can wave in the air to explain everything.
There are reasons every fat person is fat. That doesn't mean they can't get in better shape if they don't want to.
Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.
Another former fat guy here, lost 70 pounds and still aiming for more. At the moment I think I'm average size at 194, but ironically I think I'm only average because this country has become heavier.
I hate piling it on, but losing weight for 90% of the people is not that hard. It takes will power, yeah, but it's not impossible. I LOVE to eat, and I actually didn't change my diet drastically. I naturally stopped eating out at fast food as much as I used to, but I still eat meat, chicken, and what not. It's all about moderation. And of course, excercise.
Something that stuck with me is that when a lot of people would see me during my early weight loss, they would ask me if I had gotten sick, or what crazy diet I had gone through. People were basically surprised that you could lose weight through simple hard work, and I think that's at the root of the obesity problem here in America.
The main problem is that I think there's a bit of a fine line that's being walked here. While obesity is clearly unhealthy and can lead to rising healthcare costs, there's also the health nazis who seem to think that they have a right to judge someone if they have a few extra pounds on them or make other choices. The whole "fat people should be a protected class" thing is ridiculous, but I also think that some of this a backlash to another class attempting to mandate healthy lifestyles, not mention a bit of a backlash from a few years ago when the big scare all over the news was the rising incidence of eating disorders like anorexia and bulimia, supposedly from teens deriving a body image from Hollywood.
Let's be honest: A few extra pounds won't kill you. And I reserve the right to have an occasional hamburger, or a drink, or a smoke because it's my choice. People have a right to choose the kind of life they want to live so long as they understand the consequences of such choices. Sure, the occasional drink or a smoke might take a couple years off the end of my life, but I would rather keep a balance and enjoy the life I've got rather than live to be 120 years old and hate every single day of it. For the record, I'm 5'11" and about 180 to 185 pounds. I've got a few extra pounds, but I've had several physicals and my doctor has confirmed that I'm perfectly healthy. But if you ask someone like my grandmother, she'll make snide little remarks dictating to me what she think I should look like and that I'm obese, because she knows what makes her happy and therefore it makes everyone happy whether they like it or not. Again, health nazi.
I've worked as a personal trainer and getting a client from hugely obese to that sweet maintainable spot called "curvy and cute" is not that hard.
Some people would consider "curvy and cute" to be "obese."
"Obese" is a clinical term, so these people are wrong and probably stupid.
They are probably referring to the BMI definition of obesity. The only good thing the fat acceptance movement has done is to increase awareness that BMI is bullshit.
I'm considered obese if I'm 6'3" and 260 lbs of pure ripped muscle.
necroSYS on
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
I've noticed a fair number of feminist writers are also fans of fat acceptance. I can kinda see where it's coming from (not judged on looks, women treated harsher than women for same level of obesity), but I have to say I'm really not a fan of the conflation. It leads to ridiculous comments such as ‘skinny women can’t be feminists’. I wish that wasn’t a serious quote from a respected feminist writer, but there you go. It’s damaging in the long run, we want to encourage a healthy view of food – eat what you want is just as dangerous as seeing food as a guilty pleasure (ugh I hate that shit), and paying attention to your health. I’d wager obesity is a far greater threat to your average girl than anorexia, especially so in the US and UK. Man or woman, paying attention to your body is something to be held aloft.
As for the overweight, they can change it. Don’t give me any of that bullshit. I used to be skinny, ridiculously so due to an extent to actual health reasons. I didn’t mope about how hard life was, I started trying to eat right and working out. And guess what? Shockingly it worked. Whilst I haven’t reached my ideal weight or level of health, I’m slowly getting there. I mean I've passed 200lb which was a big milestone for me.
Now this brings up the question of why should be criticise those in poor health? This is a difficult question, I still check myself for what true motive might lie there – my unexamined subtle prejudices. I think it is because I can’t comprehend people actually being happy to live a as self imposed cripples. That they can stay in such a state. I think modern circumstance drives them there. And that they need the encouragement to escape those pitfalls. Insults and derision may not be the best way to do this (to say the least). This doesn’t mean that we should tell people it’s okay to be so afflicted. I think that’s an awful message to send to people. Rather we should send the opposite one, if you aren’t Apollo that’s fine, just aim for it with what time and effort you can set aside.
I mean sure, if someone is well and truly happy to be obese or anorexic, good for them, I find it real hard to believe such people exist in any notable number though.
An interesting, thoughtful post. But I think your last sentence needs to be included in some form in any sending of the bolded message. I don't have much trouble believing that people are happy to be obese, but even if I did, is that a valid reason to tell those who are that they need to lose weight?
Edit: My grandmother is a bit of a medical mystery in that doctor's can't explain why she can't lose weight. She was on a ridiculously harsh calorie restriction diet with hours of exercise a day, and only lost a pound, despite being visibly obese. I'm sure such cases are rare, but they do exist, and I think they serve as a valid reminder that fat people aren't hurting anybody by being fat. It's a lifestyle choice I don't agree with, but there's nothing wrong with it until you start asking everyone else to subsidize your obesity through medical bills or something else.
Powerpuppies on
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ZimmydoomAccept no substitutesRegistered Userregular
I'm not sure I understand what the thread is about. Is it about not being a dick to people, or is it about accepting obesity as a disability? Because I certainly don't think it's right to look down at or disparage people because they are obese. That's dickish. However, I also don't think obesity is a disability unless you actually have some kind of biochemical impairment that leads to obesity.
What about clinical depression, bipolar disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, or any number of other psychological conditions that cause people to overeat or spurn exercise?
Isn't everything in your list a biochemical impairment which I actually mentioned in the post above? With the qualifier "unless"?
I don't think that clinical obesity should be treated as harmless, but this attitude of "I don't have any problem with fat people, but seriously fuck fat people." is extremely disturbing. How the fuck is it permissible to tell someone "it's OK that you're unacceptably disgusting, so long as you have a doctor's note"?
I hope you're not responding to me here, because I would never do this and I don't condone this kind of behavior at all.
Obesity is a real, serious medical condition that should be treated with as much sympathy and care as any debilitating disease. Enablers, people who advocate eschewing treatment in lieu of some bullshit egalitarian crusade against looksism deserve to be called out for the harm they're doing, but that harm is absolutely inconsequential compared to the damage caused by this attitude of "sit up or shut up."
Unless there is a biochemical condition feeding (no pun intended) the obesity, I view it as a more mild form of alcoholism. It's a disease, even if you're completely doing it to yourself. And you should be afforded sympathy. But a protected class? No.
I'm not pointing the finger at any one person, I just thought Drez's post was a good jumping-off place for the point I wanted to make. Honestly the sentiment behind this whole thread makes me slightly ill.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, I didn't think you were being particularly unreasonable. I just thought it was an important point to make, because I think a lot of people use "OK, if you really have a glandular problem then I guess I can be less of a bigot" as a kind of token attempt at political correctness. Weight issues aren't just caused by laziness and/or a fucked up thyroid. If someone is clinically depressed and that causes them to overeat this does not make them a bad person. In many cases being overweight can trigger depression, so the issue needs to be handled delicately. I don't think it would be controversial to assume that most people, when faced with their own obesity, will "drown their sorrows" in comfort food, further compounding their condition.
Some people are just fucking lazy. I've met more than a few of them, and I've read the riot act to a couple of my friends for their binge eating habits, but in each case I bookended my concerns with supportive language and a careful tone. But overweight people are not fundamentally defective just because they respond differently to stress.
I think I'm so sensitive to this partly because I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum, and have spent almost my whole live dangerously underweight. I know from personal experience that being too tired to cook /= too lazy to eat right. Even trying to walk downstairs when my blood pressure is spiking can be terrifying, and the last time I tried doing free weights my shoulder ratcheted painfully eight times with each lift. I've been called ugly, lazy, weak, and worthless for looking drawn and sickly, despite doing everything I knew how to keep weight on. My body just reacts to stress differently; I came back from Japan eating 2800 calories a day with 96 pounds on my 5'8" frame.
I don't want to equivocate and try to claim that my experiences with ostracism are equal to or the same as those suffered by people who are overweight despite their best efforts. But I do know what its like to be snickered at for my weight, and it's not just because I lack self control.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
I've worked as a personal trainer and getting a client from hugely obese to that sweet maintainable spot called "curvy and cute" is not that hard.
Some people would consider "curvy and cute" to be "obese."
"Obese" is a clinical term, so these people are wrong and probably stupid.
They are probably referring to the BMI definition of obesity. The only good thing the fat acceptance movement has done is to increase awareness that BMI is bullshit.
I'm considered obese if I'm 6'3" and 260 lbs of pure ripped muscle.
BMI is a measure of populations, which it works fine as. Yeah you might be arnie, but is your average person at that weight going to be any such thing? (Outside of like Somans)
Though yes, it as a measure of personal fitness is quite clearly ridiculous.
i hate the excuse "WELL HE/SHE CAN'T HELP IT, IT'S A DISORDER/BAD GENES/ METABOLISM THING!"
fuck YOU, it doesn't matter to me WHY that person's obese.
it's not okay to be obese, it's bad for you and everyone around you. it's not like your friend is the only person with this 'magical uncurable' mojo to explain away their fatness. and you believing it is only encouraging the fatass sadsack.
o_O
I weigh 150 and look like a fucking stick. Nevertheless, I don't understand why people don't have the right to get as fat as they want. And I don't understand why anyone has the right to object.
Edit: Also, what Jinto and ElJeffe said.
Man, it's your tax money paying for their medical treatment. When I see the annual federal budget each year, I cheer increased funding to hospitals because I imagine that money helping people with terminal illnesses, people with serious mental conditions, children with leukemia, etc etc. Then I realise that, every year, a significant portion of it goes to help obese people who are content to remain the way they are.
Ambulance fleets are being remodeled to accomodate the morbidly obese. Hospital doorways are being widened. Oh, and have you read about how morbidly obese women in both the US and Australia are getting pregnant but refusing to lose weight during pregnancy, thus endangering their unborn children?
Being obese is not something that anyone should be content with. It doesn't mean that obese people should be treated with scorn, but we can't be complacent about it either. "Oh, it's not hurting anyone." Well, yes, it is.
It is pretty easy to tell if you are in poor health without looking at weight. If you are in poor health, you should seek to improve your health. If you don't, okay, no one can really force you to, but don't expect people to go out of their way to accommodate your decision not to maintain your health. I mean unless you pay them to or something and they agree to said transaction. Note, being of low weight doesn't mean you're in good health.
It is pretty easy to tell if you are in poor health without looking at weight. If you are in poor health, you should seek to improve your health. If you don't, okay, no one can really force you to, but don't expect people to go out of their way to accommodate your decision not to maintain your health. I mean unless you pay them to or something and they agree to said transaction. Note, being of low weight doesn't mean you're in good health.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
i hate the excuse "WELL HE/SHE CAN'T HELP IT, IT'S A DISORDER/BAD GENES/ METABOLISM THING!"
fuck YOU, it doesn't matter to me WHY that person's obese.
it's not okay to be obese, it's bad for you and everyone around you. it's not like your friend is the only person with this 'magical uncurable' mojo to explain away their fatness. and you believing it is only encouraging the fatass sadsack.
o_O
I weigh 150 and look like a fucking stick. Nevertheless, I don't understand why people don't have the right to get as fat as they want. And I don't understand why anyone has the right to object.
Edit: Also, what Jinto and ElJeffe said.
Man, it's your tax money paying for their medical treatment. When I see the annual federal budget each year, I cheer increased funding to hospitals because I imagine that money helping people with terminal illnesses, people with serious mental conditions, children with leukemia, etc etc. Then I realise that, every year, a significant portion of it goes to help obese people who are content to remain the way they are.
Ambulance fleets are being remodeled to accomodate the morbidly obese. Hospital doorways are being widened. Oh, and have you read about how morbidly obese women in both the US and Australia are getting pregnant but refusing to lose weight during pregnancy, thus endangering their unborn children?
Being obese is not something that anyone should be content with. It doesn't mean that obese people should be treated with scorn, but we can't be complacent about it either. "Oh, it's not hurting anyone." Well, yes, it is.
No, no it fucking isn't. Being obese while pregnant may be hurting somebody. Fine. Don't give a free pass to pregnant obese people. Being obese and asking the government to accommodate you may be hurting somebody. Fine. Don't have the government spend money on those accommodations. But there's nothing fucking wrong with being fat!
Powerpuppies on
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
I'm 6'2", and about 230-240. I'm overweight, and have been for a few years now. I recently lost a bit (so I might very well be under 230) due to changing my diet. However, I love food. I honestly think that food is one of the most wonderful things that human beings can experience, and I love to eat. Now, I don't eat constantly, and I try to eat in a relatively healthy manner (which means I cook a lot instead of eating junk food). I'm pretty committed to being overweight for the rest of my life. I hate exercising, and I refuse to give up one of the greatest pleasures in my life in order to lose a few pounds. I also have a tolerable level of fatness for myself, and I reached that (what prompted the cutting of sugared sodas out of the diet) and I wont reach it again.
The question is though, how tolerant should we be of my kind of mentality? I wouldn't really say that I'm obese (at least not a lot) but I don't really want to be fit and healthy either (and I probably wont ever be). Is it okay to do things that are unhealthy even knowing that I might be more sick when I'm older or die sooner?
LoserForHireX on
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Part of the genuine thing about the fat acceptance nonsense (and it is generally nonsense is rooted in the reality that treating the obese like lepers, accusing them of failing as humans and heaping scorn upon them for a failure of willpower doesn't help.
The flip-side to that (and the reason the movement is mostly nonsense now) is that going to the opposite extreme and preaching that obesity is a lifestyle choice, that all sizes are "OK" and "nobody should change who they are" "everyone is beautiful" etc. well, none of that helps people lose weight either.
As soon as you've abandoned the mindset that obesity is a problem, and it needs to be overcome, you have entered the land of fatty-fatty-crazyville.
So if you are fat and want to be treated decently, that's fine. You should be treated decently, you are a person and have worth.
But if you expect society to endorse an unwillingness on your part to shape up, then you are wrong.
Likewise, treating people like shit because they have a problem is generally also very wrong.
Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.
“One of the first obstacles to fat acceptance is breaking down the question of whether being fat is a choice,†Kate Harding, founder of the blog Shapely Prose, said in an interview. “No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.â€
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
I'm 6'2", and about 230-240. I'm overweight, and have been for a few years now. I recently lost a bit (so I might very well be under 230) due to changing my diet. However, I love food. I honestly think that food is one of the most wonderful things that human beings can experience, and I love to eat. Now, I don't eat constantly, and I try to eat in a relatively healthy manner (which means I cook a lot instead of eating junk food). I'm pretty committed to being overweight for the rest of my life. I hate exercising, and I refuse to give up one of the greatest pleasures in my life in order to lose a few pounds. I also have a tolerable level of fatness for myself, and I reached that (what prompted the cutting of sugared sodas out of the diet) and I wont reach it again.
The question is though, how tolerant should we be of my kind of mentality? I wouldn't really say that I'm obese (at least not a lot) but I don't really want to be fit and healthy either (and I probably wont ever be). Is it okay to do things that are unhealthy even knowing that I might be more sick when I'm older or die sooner?
super fucking tolerant. I don't see how you're doing anything wrong.
Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.
So make them stop costing everyone else money. The choices are not a priori destined to fuck over those of us who don't make them.
Obesity inhabits a wacky space culturally because it's one of the few negative, personal issues that it's seemingly okay to mock people about. Cigarette smoking is sort of moving into this space, as well.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I think a lot of people who are obese/overweight are perfectly willing to try and get more healthy but who won't get their either because of a lack of a good support group, lack of good information or a lack of resources or time to get in better shape.
I mean, I have seen people who work incredibly hard and manage to have success. My mom, for example, lost at least 40 pounds on Weight Watchers. Ironically, though, even though she continues to be diligent about points and works out three times a week, she is still probably what most people would call overweight.
“No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.â€
Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.
Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.
But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.
“No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”
Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.
Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.
But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.
It's as much a choice as being indoctrinated from birth into a belief system is a choice. They are learned, trained behaviors.
I'm 6'3 and I weigh 180 pounds, I'm a varsity swimmer and a cross-country runner, I've been in pretty good shape most of my life. That being said, while of course a large portion of this is due to will power, much of this is a credit to my parents, who instilled within me a love of physical activity and healthy eating habits. Such things were deemed as essential as reading to me and generally stimulating my mind. In addition, my mother is gluten sensitive (no white grain etc) which, along with a sluggish liver and a myriad of other issues, has sculpted my diet for most of my life. I can't really take complete credit for my current physical health, as their influence is pivotal. In much the same way, how can I point an accusatory figure at obese persons? Along with the valid points mentioned before (hate the movement, not the person) much of these disastrous and self-destructive habits, particularly in this generation, have been generated through parental apathy and miseducation. In much the same way habitual criminals are given sympathy and understanding due to an abusive childhood (not saying fat people are criminals, definitely not a parallel situation in substance) why not realize that many obese people are working through some very ingrained and conditioned responses and habits.
Beren39 on
Go, Go, EXCALIBUR! - Trent Varsity Swim Team 2009, better watch out for me Phelps!
“No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.â€
Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.
Which has nothing to do with being fat.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
“No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.â€
Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.
Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.
But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.
It's as much a choice as being indoctrinated from birth into a belief system is a choice. They are learned, trained behaviors.
I never said it was easy, or something that most can do without assistance. But the only government accommodation for the obese should really be treatment and programs to help them not be obese anymore. Even a moderate amount of weight lost on an obese person will result in improved health for them, it's not some zero sum game where you must be marathon-runner lean or you might as well be a whale.
“No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.â€
Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.
Which has nothing to do with being fat.
Don't be delusional, it has everything to do with being fat. Fat people are people who at some point ingested more calories per day than they expended, usually over a long period of time. The only solution lies with them doing the reverse of this, and being hungry sucks so most of them don't want to do it.
Obesity inhabits a wacky space culturally because it's one of the few negative, personal issues that it's seemingly okay to mock people about. Cigarette smoking is sort of moving into this space, as well.
I'm actually all for making fun of people's differences. I firmly believe that central to any real attempt at self-improvement is looking at your flaws with good humor. But just because I can joke about being sick doesn't mean I want my illness to dominate every conversation I am a part of, and it doesn't mean that there isn't a line and a point where I'll stop laughing at myself and start calling you an insensitive dickface for bringing it up.
Getting someone who is fat to honestly laugh at themselves is probably one of the healthiest things you can do for them. It lightens the burden, and turns their heft from something shameful into something humanizing, which is absolutely critical for anyone who actually wants to lose weight instead of just burying their misery under an avalanche of deep-fried twinkies. But getting them to laugh at themselves does not mean getting other people in the room to laugh at them, and it's not something you try with someone who doesn't know you well or trust you personally.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
“No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”
Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.
Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.
But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.
It's as much a choice as being indoctrinated from birth into a belief system is a choice. They are learned, trained behaviors.
I never said it was easy, or something that most can do without assistance. But the only government accommodation for the obese should really be treatment and programs to help them not be obese anymore. Even a moderate amount of weight lost on an obese person will result in improved health for them, it's not some zero sum game where you must be marathon-runner lean or you might as well be a whale.
Read what I said again. For the vast majority of overweight people, it is not a choice.
It is not a choice for these kids. Even if we just ignore the genetic and biological aspects of obesity, calling it a choice is just plain fucking offensive.
Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.
So make them stop costing everyone else money. The choices are not a priori destined to fuck over those of us who don't make them.
You are aware that you are being ridiculous, right? The way to make people stop costing the health care system more money is to make them healthier. Being obese is not healthy. It has been proven repeatedly to be a factor in a huge number of health issues.
You can't just wave a magic wand and make these costs go away, unless you are advocating that obese people not receive medical treatment.
Read what I said again. For the vast majority of overweight people, it is not a choice.
It is not a choice for these kids. Even if we just ignore the genetic and biological aspects of obesity, calling it a choice is just plain fucking offensive.
“No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”
Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.
Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.
But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.
It's as much a choice as being indoctrinated from birth into a belief system is a choice. They are learned, trained behaviors.
I never said it was easy, or something that most can do without assistance. But the only government accommodation for the obese should really be treatment and programs to help them not be obese anymore. Even a moderate amount of weight lost on an obese person will result in improved health for them, it's not some zero sum game where you must be marathon-runner lean or you might as well be a whale.
Read what I said again. For the vast majority of overweight people, it is not a choice.
It is not a choice for these kids. Even if we just ignore the genetic and biological aspects of obesity, calling it a choice is just plain fucking offensive.
Read what I am saying here:
Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED
-edit-
The so-called "biological aspect of obesity", which 99% of the time just means the person has a slower metabolism than the norm, and substantially slower than the naturally thin (rather than an actual medical condition) might explain obesity, but in no way mitigates the serious health risks of being obese. It is an explanation not an excuse. No matter how much sanctimony you load onto it.
The End of Food has an interesting chapter covering how the author believes obesity became epidemic. Basically, people evolved to get food with as little effort as possible. Our modern conveniences have now made this genetic programming backfire on us.
As for the Fat Acceptance "movement", it's made up of people who just plain don't want to change their lifestyle and want to make excuses for their dependence on food. Seeing as how there are so many overweight and obese people I wouldn't say that fat people are pathetic and failures as human beings; I'd say that they suffer from a common human trait that has no use in modern civilization.
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.
So make them stop costing everyone else money. The choices are not a priori destined to fuck over those of us who don't make them.
You are aware that you are being ridiculous, right?
Fuck you.
The way to make people stop costing the health care system more money is to make them healthier. Being obese is not healthy. It has been proven repeatedly to be a factor in a huge number of health issues.
You can't just wave a magic wand and make these costs go away, unless you are advocating that obese people not receive medical treatment.
This is exactly what I'm advocating. If you make a choice that can lead to medical problems, and then you have those medical problems, I don't think the government should spend a dime to save you. Certainly not if the government spending that dime is used as a reason people should not be permitted to make the same choice you did.
The argument seems, to me, to be analogous to this:
"I give everyone who wears a green shirt $5. I've given you $5 the past three days. Stop wearing green shirts, you're stealing my money!"
The choice to wear a green shirt or be fat is not related to the detriment of losing $5 or paying for other people's avoidable medical bills.
Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED
And for once in your fucking time on these boards read something I am saying.
It.
Is not.
A choice.
At no point, ever, have I suggested that they should be absolved of responsibility. I'm telling you that your wording is wrong and offensive. That's it.
Do you fucking grok?
Edit: I'm not excusing anybody, you illiterate fucking monnkey.
Losing weight (going from 295 lb to running marathons) messed with my head. I read an article that someone in [chat] linked a couple of weeks back, and it mirrored my thoughts quite well. It discussed the total resentment you begin to feel towards your peers once you gain acceptance that was absent as a fat person. It feels good, obviously, to finally have women look at you... but for me, at least, when my mind digs in and realizes that my appearance is what made me worthy of attention, I got intensely bitter. It's been a few years since I got into shape and it still messes with me sometimes.
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As for the overweight, they can change it. Don’t give me any of that bullshit. I used to be skinny, ridiculously so due to an extent to actual health reasons. I didn’t mope about how hard life was, I started trying to eat right and working out. And guess what? Shockingly it worked. Whilst I haven’t reached my ideal weight or level of health, I’m slowly getting there. I mean I've passed 200lb which was a big milestone for me.
Now this brings up the question of why should be criticise those in poor health? This is a difficult question, I still check myself for what true motive might lie there – my unexamined subtle prejudices. I think it is because I can’t comprehend people actually being happy to live a as self imposed cripples. That they can stay in such a state. I think modern circumstance drives them there. And that they need the encouragement to escape those pitfalls. Insults and derision may not be the best way to do this (to say the least). This doesn’t mean that we should tell people it’s okay to be so afflicted. I think that’s an awful message to send to people. Rather we should send the opposite one, if you aren’t Apollo that’s fine, just aim for it with what time and effort you can set aside.
I mean sure, if someone is well and truly happy to be obese or anorexic, good for them, I find it real hard to believe such people exist in any notable number though.
It is an issue, and why dieting alone is set to fail for most people. Changing your diet is important, but you need to exercise on top of it because exercise takes away one of the things that leads to obesity, being sedentary. By virtue of getting off your ass you can't be taking in empty calories at least while your exercising (well barring drinking soda/beer/having a sandwhich set up).
pleasepaypreacher.net
All of those things are reasons you can put on weight. But exercise is a good treatment for clinical depression, bipolar disorder, etc. I'm not going all Tom Cruise on you here. I don't think vitamins and exercise are the ONLY treatments for those things, but I'm saying they are not magic cards you can wave in the air to explain everything.
There are reasons every fat person is fat. That doesn't mean they can't get in better shape if they don't want to.
Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.
I hate piling it on, but losing weight for 90% of the people is not that hard. It takes will power, yeah, but it's not impossible. I LOVE to eat, and I actually didn't change my diet drastically. I naturally stopped eating out at fast food as much as I used to, but I still eat meat, chicken, and what not. It's all about moderation. And of course, excercise.
Something that stuck with me is that when a lot of people would see me during my early weight loss, they would ask me if I had gotten sick, or what crazy diet I had gone through. People were basically surprised that you could lose weight through simple hard work, and I think that's at the root of the obesity problem here in America.
Let's be honest: A few extra pounds won't kill you. And I reserve the right to have an occasional hamburger, or a drink, or a smoke because it's my choice. People have a right to choose the kind of life they want to live so long as they understand the consequences of such choices. Sure, the occasional drink or a smoke might take a couple years off the end of my life, but I would rather keep a balance and enjoy the life I've got rather than live to be 120 years old and hate every single day of it. For the record, I'm 5'11" and about 180 to 185 pounds. I've got a few extra pounds, but I've had several physicals and my doctor has confirmed that I'm perfectly healthy. But if you ask someone like my grandmother, she'll make snide little remarks dictating to me what she think I should look like and that I'm obese, because she knows what makes her happy and therefore it makes everyone happy whether they like it or not. Again, health nazi.
In short, maintain a balance.
They are probably referring to the BMI definition of obesity. The only good thing the fat acceptance movement has done is to increase awareness that BMI is bullshit.
I'm considered obese if I'm 6'3" and 260 lbs of pure ripped muscle.
An interesting, thoughtful post. But I think your last sentence needs to be included in some form in any sending of the bolded message. I don't have much trouble believing that people are happy to be obese, but even if I did, is that a valid reason to tell those who are that they need to lose weight?
Edit: My grandmother is a bit of a medical mystery in that doctor's can't explain why she can't lose weight. She was on a ridiculously harsh calorie restriction diet with hours of exercise a day, and only lost a pound, despite being visibly obese. I'm sure such cases are rare, but they do exist, and I think they serve as a valid reminder that fat people aren't hurting anybody by being fat. It's a lifestyle choice I don't agree with, but there's nothing wrong with it until you start asking everyone else to subsidize your obesity through medical bills or something else.
Yeah, I didn't think you were being particularly unreasonable. I just thought it was an important point to make, because I think a lot of people use "OK, if you really have a glandular problem then I guess I can be less of a bigot" as a kind of token attempt at political correctness. Weight issues aren't just caused by laziness and/or a fucked up thyroid. If someone is clinically depressed and that causes them to overeat this does not make them a bad person. In many cases being overweight can trigger depression, so the issue needs to be handled delicately. I don't think it would be controversial to assume that most people, when faced with their own obesity, will "drown their sorrows" in comfort food, further compounding their condition.
Some people are just fucking lazy. I've met more than a few of them, and I've read the riot act to a couple of my friends for their binge eating habits, but in each case I bookended my concerns with supportive language and a careful tone. But overweight people are not fundamentally defective just because they respond differently to stress.
I think I'm so sensitive to this partly because I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum, and have spent almost my whole live dangerously underweight. I know from personal experience that being too tired to cook /= too lazy to eat right. Even trying to walk downstairs when my blood pressure is spiking can be terrifying, and the last time I tried doing free weights my shoulder ratcheted painfully eight times with each lift. I've been called ugly, lazy, weak, and worthless for looking drawn and sickly, despite doing everything I knew how to keep weight on. My body just reacts to stress differently; I came back from Japan eating 2800 calories a day with 96 pounds on my 5'8" frame.
I don't want to equivocate and try to claim that my experiences with ostracism are equal to or the same as those suffered by people who are overweight despite their best efforts. But I do know what its like to be snickered at for my weight, and it's not just because I lack self control.
BMI is a measure of populations, which it works fine as. Yeah you might be arnie, but is your average person at that weight going to be any such thing? (Outside of like Somans)
Though yes, it as a measure of personal fitness is quite clearly ridiculous.
Man, it's your tax money paying for their medical treatment. When I see the annual federal budget each year, I cheer increased funding to hospitals because I imagine that money helping people with terminal illnesses, people with serious mental conditions, children with leukemia, etc etc. Then I realise that, every year, a significant portion of it goes to help obese people who are content to remain the way they are.
Ambulance fleets are being remodeled to accomodate the morbidly obese. Hospital doorways are being widened. Oh, and have you read about how morbidly obese women in both the US and Australia are getting pregnant but refusing to lose weight during pregnancy, thus endangering their unborn children?
Being obese is not something that anyone should be content with. It doesn't mean that obese people should be treated with scorn, but we can't be complacent about it either. "Oh, it's not hurting anyone." Well, yes, it is.
<---- Exhibit A
No, no it fucking isn't. Being obese while pregnant may be hurting somebody. Fine. Don't give a free pass to pregnant obese people. Being obese and asking the government to accommodate you may be hurting somebody. Fine. Don't have the government spend money on those accommodations. But there's nothing fucking wrong with being fat!
He can't decide whether he likes this thread for the right reasons or not.
I'm 6'2", and about 230-240. I'm overweight, and have been for a few years now. I recently lost a bit (so I might very well be under 230) due to changing my diet. However, I love food. I honestly think that food is one of the most wonderful things that human beings can experience, and I love to eat. Now, I don't eat constantly, and I try to eat in a relatively healthy manner (which means I cook a lot instead of eating junk food). I'm pretty committed to being overweight for the rest of my life. I hate exercising, and I refuse to give up one of the greatest pleasures in my life in order to lose a few pounds. I also have a tolerable level of fatness for myself, and I reached that (what prompted the cutting of sugared sodas out of the diet) and I wont reach it again.
The question is though, how tolerant should we be of my kind of mentality? I wouldn't really say that I'm obese (at least not a lot) but I don't really want to be fit and healthy either (and I probably wont ever be). Is it okay to do things that are unhealthy even knowing that I might be more sick when I'm older or die sooner?
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The flip-side to that (and the reason the movement is mostly nonsense now) is that going to the opposite extreme and preaching that obesity is a lifestyle choice, that all sizes are "OK" and "nobody should change who they are" "everyone is beautiful" etc. well, none of that helps people lose weight either.
As soon as you've abandoned the mindset that obesity is a problem, and it needs to be overcome, you have entered the land of fatty-fatty-crazyville.
So if you are fat and want to be treated decently, that's fine. You should be treated decently, you are a person and have worth.
But if you expect society to endorse an unwillingness on your part to shape up, then you are wrong.
Likewise, treating people like shit because they have a problem is generally also very wrong.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
super fucking tolerant. I don't see how you're doing anything wrong.
edit:
So make them stop costing everyone else money. The choices are not a priori destined to fuck over those of us who don't make them.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I mean, I have seen people who work incredibly hard and manage to have success. My mom, for example, lost at least 40 pounds on Weight Watchers. Ironically, though, even though she continues to be diligent about points and works out three times a week, she is still probably what most people would call overweight.
Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.
Yes, this means that some people need to push the plate away, avoid higher energy foods that their slow metabolisms won't accomodate, and even, especially for those already overweight, eat small meals and be hungry for a while until they get used to ingesting the calories they need instead of the calories they want/are used to.
But yes, for all but a tiny segment of the obese, it is a choice.
It's as much a choice as being indoctrinated from birth into a belief system is a choice. They are learned, trained behaviors.
Which has nothing to do with being fat.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I never said it was easy, or something that most can do without assistance. But the only government accommodation for the obese should really be treatment and programs to help them not be obese anymore. Even a moderate amount of weight lost on an obese person will result in improved health for them, it's not some zero sum game where you must be marathon-runner lean or you might as well be a whale.
Don't be delusional, it has everything to do with being fat. Fat people are people who at some point ingested more calories per day than they expended, usually over a long period of time. The only solution lies with them doing the reverse of this, and being hungry sucks so most of them don't want to do it.
Most activities are harmful if done in excess.
I'm actually all for making fun of people's differences. I firmly believe that central to any real attempt at self-improvement is looking at your flaws with good humor. But just because I can joke about being sick doesn't mean I want my illness to dominate every conversation I am a part of, and it doesn't mean that there isn't a line and a point where I'll stop laughing at myself and start calling you an insensitive dickface for bringing it up.
Getting someone who is fat to honestly laugh at themselves is probably one of the healthiest things you can do for them. It lightens the burden, and turns their heft from something shameful into something humanizing, which is absolutely critical for anyone who actually wants to lose weight instead of just burying their misery under an avalanche of deep-fried twinkies. But getting them to laugh at themselves does not mean getting other people in the room to laugh at them, and it's not something you try with someone who doesn't know you well or trust you personally.
Read what I said again. For the vast majority of overweight people, it is not a choice.
It is not a choice for these kids. Even if we just ignore the genetic and biological aspects of obesity, calling it a choice is just plain fucking offensive.
You can't just wave a magic wand and make these costs go away, unless you are advocating that obese people not receive medical treatment.
Read what I am saying here:
Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED
-edit-
The so-called "biological aspect of obesity", which 99% of the time just means the person has a slower metabolism than the norm, and substantially slower than the naturally thin (rather than an actual medical condition) might explain obesity, but in no way mitigates the serious health risks of being obese. It is an explanation not an excuse. No matter how much sanctimony you load onto it.
As for the Fat Acceptance "movement", it's made up of people who just plain don't want to change their lifestyle and want to make excuses for their dependence on food. Seeing as how there are so many overweight and obese people I wouldn't say that fat people are pathetic and failures as human beings; I'd say that they suffer from a common human trait that has no use in modern civilization.
This is exactly what I'm advocating. If you make a choice that can lead to medical problems, and then you have those medical problems, I don't think the government should spend a dime to save you. Certainly not if the government spending that dime is used as a reason people should not be permitted to make the same choice you did.
The argument seems, to me, to be analogous to this:
"I give everyone who wears a green shirt $5. I've given you $5 the past three days. Stop wearing green shirts, you're stealing my money!"
The choice to wear a green shirt or be fat is not related to the detriment of losing $5 or paying for other people's avoidable medical bills.
And for once in your fucking time on these boards read something I am saying.
It.
Is not.
A choice.
At no point, ever, have I suggested that they should be absolved of responsibility. I'm telling you that your wording is wrong and offensive. That's it.
Do you fucking grok?
Edit: I'm not excusing anybody, you illiterate fucking monnkey.