Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED
And for once in your fucking time on these boards read something I am saying.
It.
Is not.
A choice.
At no point, ever, have I suggested that they should be absolved of responsibility. I'm telling you that your wording is wrong and offensive. That's it.
Do you fucking grok?
Edit: I'm not excusing anybody, you illiterate fucking monnkey.
He's disagreeing with you, not failing to understand you. He thinks the kids have free will and don't have to eat the mcdonald's. See the words free will up there? That's the part where he disagrees with you saying it isn't a choice.
Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED
And for once in your fucking time on these boards read something I am saying.
It.
Is not.
A choice.
At no point, ever, have I suggested that they should be absolved of responsibility. I'm telling you that your wording is wrong and offensive. That's it.
Do you fucking grok?
Edit: I'm not excusing anybody, you illiterate fucking monnkey.
Hippie. I am so God damned sick of you accusing everyone who disagrees with you of not reading your posts.
I read your shitty, wrong-headed, lame-ass posts and have completely and utterly rejected your position, and I am flat-out offended at your retarded moral posturing on the presumed helplessness of the obese.
And that's that. Don't even bother replying to me again, you're a fucking loon and that's all there is.
-edit-
and don't use the word "grok" it's stupid. and don't pretend saying people are helpless and can't control how much food they eat is anything but an excuse. how offensive that you expect me to swallow that pathetic logic.
Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED
And for once in your fucking time on these boards read something I am saying.
It.
Is not.
A choice.
At no point, ever, have I suggested that they should be absolved of responsibility. I'm telling you that your wording is wrong and offensive. That's it.
Do you fucking grok?
Edit: I'm not excusing anybody, you illiterate fucking monnkey.
He's disagreeing with you, not failing to understand you. He thinks the kids have free will and don't have to eat the mcdonald's. See the words free will up there? That's the part where he disagrees with you saying it isn't a choice.
Edit: the part I bolded is amusing to me.
Then he fails at understanding the concept of choice.
If the parents are so irresponsible that they let their children get that obese (which would require a tremendous amount of enabling on the part of the parents) then child services needs to take the away.
We don't let parents keep their kids if they let their kids eat paint chips, or drink lighter fluid, or if they find out their 6-year-old is drinking malt liquor and don't do anything about it. Likewise, we shouldn't let parents keep their kids who load em up with 8 big macs a day, either.
“No fat acceptance advocate is saying you should sit around and wildly overeat. What we’re saying is that exercise and a balanced diet do not make everyone thin.”
Actually if you balance your diet to where your calories burned are equal to or less than your calories ingested, you will not gain weight.
Which has nothing to do with being fat.
Don't be delusional, it has everything to do with being fat. Fat people are people who at some point ingested more calories per day than they expended, usually over a long period of time. The only solution lies with them doing the reverse of this, and being hungry sucks so most of them don't want to do it.
Everybody has, at some point in their lives, ingested more calories per day than they expended. if you didn't, at least during childhood, then you suffered malnutrition and stunted growth.
A person's metabolism changes throughout their lives, usually slowing down. Most people are ill-prepared for these changes, which is why people can gain weight right after puberty, or illness, or pregnancy, without ever increasing their caloric intake.
Everybody could lose weight. Debra Messing could lose weight. Montgomery Burns could lose weight. However, what some people consider to be "fat" has nothing to do with health. Some people called this "fat:"
That's an extreme example, but it illustrates my point. Whether or not a person is physically capable of losing weight is irrelevant towards the social expectations placed upon that person.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
0
Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
Argument that people who are raised with poor eating habits are hopelessly broken and free from personal responsibility and not possessed of free-will: REJECTED
And for once in your fucking time on these boards read something I am saying.
It.
Is not.
A choice.
At no point, ever, have I suggested that they should be absolved of responsibility. I'm telling you that your wording is wrong and offensive. That's it.
Do you fucking grok?
Edit: I'm not excusing anybody, you illiterate fucking monnkey.
He's disagreeing with you, not failing to understand you. He thinks the kids have free will and don't have to eat the mcdonald's. See the words free will up there? That's the part where he disagrees with you saying it isn't a choice.
Edit: the part I bolded is amusing to me.
Then he fails at understanding the concept of choice.
So argue that rather than accusing him of not reading your posts.
Edit: or agree to disagree, that would work too. Is there nothing more to discuss about fat acceptance after you resolve whether fatness is a choice? Assuming it is a choice, isn't it still wrong to disparage people who have made that choice? Assuming it isn't a choice for some people, what's the appropriate societal response?
Basically, people evolved to get food with as little effort as possible.
This. This. A million times over. Millions of years of adaptation are behind our cravings for fats and sugars, which are nowadays readily available everywhere. Our modern day society, in which most people drive everywhere, spent the day sitting, eat highly processed food, and work for most of the day with little to no time to exercise, is a major, major factor in weight gain.
As for the Fat Acceptance "movement", it's made up of people who just plain don't want to change their lifestyle and want to make excuses for their dependence on food. [citation needed]
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Again it is kind of the slippery slope. I have had many people tell me I am setting my daughter up to be like me. Umm just cause the child is 60lbs and 4'3" she is not fat. Seriously she is active (Judo twice a week, Tournements once a month, biking, running around and playing.) And to look at her she is not a large child. Compare her to her friend Kaitlyn though and yes she looks huge, but then Kaitlyn is a small child. So should I be charged with child abues since a large amount of people feel that by virtue of my daughter living with a fat mommy I am setting her up to fail?
Yes we need to make sure we are teaching our children right. I appluade my parents for when i was young but alas the training they taught me did not stick, and I let myeslf go to much. I used to play Volleyball, was able to walk for kilometers, (Hills I hated thought) Could and would bike for 10 kms a day to visit a friend, and have known about healthy eating since I was small. As I became and adult I lost that though. I started drinking to much pop, I ate out to much while working, going to school, and taking care of a newborn, (yup all at the same time) And then I finally found out that I why I had lost all my joy for life was major depression. I ate to feel better but it made me feel like hell, so I ate to feel better.... Even though I knew it was the wrong thing to do.
jeepguy show me JUST WHERE THE FUCK I said anybody was helpless.
I didn't. At no point, not once in this argument, have I ever said anybody was helpless. You are, quite literally, putting words into my mouth. It's fucking infuriating and that's why I always get so god damned frustrated with you, because you can't help but accuse people of saying some shit that THEY'RE NOT FUCKING SAYING.
So what other conclusions can I reach? Simply that you're a fucking illiterate monkey who's going to choose to yell at somebody for something THEY NEVER FUCKING SAID instead of either arguing or accepting the point I'm trying to fucking make.
Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.
So make them stop costing everyone else money. The choices are not a priori destined to fuck over those of us who don't make them.
You are aware that you are being ridiculous, right?
Fuck you.
The way to make people stop costing the health care system more money is to make them healthier. Being obese is not healthy. It has been proven repeatedly to be a factor in a huge number of health issues.
You can't just wave a magic wand and make these costs go away, unless you are advocating that obese people not receive medical treatment.
This is exactly what I'm advocating. If you make a choice that can lead to medical problems, and then you have those medical problems, I don't think the government should spend a dime to save you. Certainly not if the government spending that dime is used as a reason people should not be permitted to make the same choice you did.
The argument seems, to me, to be analogous to this:
"I give everyone who wears a green shirt $5. I've given you $5 the past three days. Stop wearing green shirts, you're stealing my money!"
The choice to wear a green shirt or be fat is not related to the detriment of losing $5 or paying for other people's avoidable medical bills.
"Being fat" is a result of a lot of choices and some things that aren't choices---it's more a result than it is a singular choice. What should be taxed, incentivized or disincentivized is the behaviors that lead people to become overweight.
Like say, a tax credit for having a gym membership, or putting a sort of "sin tax" on heavily sugary snacks, end corn subsidies so hcfs isn't so cheap, etc.
Yeah, calling it a "choice" while true, isn't really fair. We have a society that simultaneously harshly judges those who are overweight, and yet encourages people in pretty much every way possible to get fat. I mean, really, our society pretty much does everything in its power to make everyone fat. First, the vast majority of the food in our stores contains way too many simple sugars, and nowhere near enough complex carbs. Yes, we can sit here and judge people for not buying healthier food, but when do you ever see healthy food advertised? I think it's a problem when I buy "lightly salted peanuts" which have cornstarch in them, or my wheat bread comes with high-fructose corn syrup. The agricultural-industrial complex pretty much holds complete control over what is sold, advertised, and subsidized by the government; our tax dollars go towards making these foods that are terrible for us more affordable and more widely available than healthy foods.
Then, you've got the modern societal scheduling issues. Most of us skip breakfast, have a set time for lunch carved out for us, and then eat a big dinner shortly before we go to bed, which means two giant meals. Kids in school are even more fucked, since many of them are limited by what the school cafeteria is serving, and most teachers won't let them eat in class. People eating at their desk during work is also looked down upon, yet these are the behaviors that are best for us. College dining plans can be even worse; I know a lot of schools go with a mandatory "meal" plan which is ridiculously expensive, doesn't roll over, and basically locks you into eating two all-you-can-eat meals per day. Again, developing the worst possible eating habits for the students.
And then the societal judgment on people who are fat makes it even worse; a lot of overweight people are too self-conscious to go to a gym, because they feel like everyone is judging them; we've turned gyms into places healthy people go, instead of making it into a place where people go to get healthy.
So yes, in one sense, it is a "choice," in much the same way a poor kid who grows up in the ghetto without a family "chooses" to become a gangbanger and a drug dealer. And I'm not saying that people aren't responsible for their weight; all I'm saying is that the deck comes out stacked against them, and then we act all judgmental when they behave in exactly the way society and economics encourage them to.
Well, saying "it's not a choice" also implies that people can't lose their weight.
Either it's a choice or it isn't.
You can argue that with certain upbringings, children are led into obesity and this may inform their adult life, but I don't think "choice"/"not a choice" is the correct language here because it's not clear as to what you are saying. Children basically don't have ANY choices. But adults do.
jeepguy show me JUST WHERE THE FUCK I said anybody was helpless.
HIPPIE:
"IT'S NOT A CHOICE"
*SOBBING*
You god damned moron. I am distinguishing between "HEY LOOK I THINK I'LL EAT A WHOLE FUCKING CAKE BECAUSE I WANT TO" and "HEY LOOK THIS IS HOW I'VE BEEN TRAINED TO EAT AND NOBODY FUCKING TAUGHT ME ANY DIFFERENT BECAUSE MY FAMILY'S FAT AND THEIR FAMILIES WERE FAT AND WE ALL HAVE BAD EATING HABITS SO SAYING I CHOSE TO BECOME A FAT FUCKING SLOB IS PRETTY FUCKING STUPID YOU IGNORANT MORON."
Again it is kind of the slippery slope. I have had many people tell me I am setting my daughter up to be like me. Umm just cause the child is 60lbs and 4'3" she is not fat. Seriously she is active (Judo twice a week, Tournements once a month, biking, running around and playing.) And to look at her she is not a large child. Compare her to her friend Kaitlyn though and yes she looks huge, but then Kaitlyn is a small child. So should I be charged with child abues since a large amount of people feel that by virtue of my daughter living with a fat mommy I am setting her up to fail?
Yes we need to make sure we are teaching our children right. I appluade my parents for when i was young but alas the training they taught me did not stick, and I let myeslf go to much. I used to play Volleyball, was able to walk for kilometers, (Hills I hated thought) Could and would bike for 10 kms a day to visit a friend, and have known about healthy eating since I was small. As I became and adult I lost that though. I started drinking to much pop, I ate out to much while working, going to school, and taking care of a newborn, (yup all at the same time) And then I finally found out that I why I had lost all my joy for life was major depression. I ate to feel better but it made me feel like hell, so I ate to feel better.... Even though I knew it was the wrong thing to do.
Any kid who is obese enough for it to be considered abuse is probably going to be on all kinds of medications for it, and it would be well-documented by their doctor/social worker. If your kid is at all active, eats even somewhat healthy, and is not rapidly gaining weight I can't see how it would be abuse. But if a parent willfully chooses to feed their child massive amounts of unhealthy food, and continues to do so despite a child's degenerating health, then at the very least they are incompetent if not actually abusive.
Being "slightly bigger" is a world apart from "morbidly obese at the age of six". Go to youtube and search for "world's fattest child" if you want to see the sort of abuse cases I'm talking about. I'm not going to link it here because frankly it's kind of heartbreaking.
Duffel on
0
ZimmydoomAccept no substitutesRegistered Userregular
If the parents are so irresponsible that they let their children get that obese (which would require a tremendous amount of enabling on the part of the parents) then child services needs to take the away.
We don't let parents keep their kids if they let their kids eat paint chips, or drink lighter fluid, or if they find out their 6-year-old is drinking malt liquor and don't do anything about it. Likewise, we shouldn't let parents keep their kids who load em up with 8 big macs a day, either.
So we should take 15% of the children in this country away from their parents and shoehorn them into a horribly underfunded and fundamentally broken foster care system because their biological parents are providing them too much basic sustenance.
Yes, I don't see how that could possibly trigger the downfall of civilization.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
The extreme example of the two kids portrayed in that photo should in no way be taken as some sort of example of where obesity comes from. The vast majority of obese people are not morbidly obese, and certainly didn't look like that as small children.
It's a shock photo. It is part of the rising problem of childhood obesity but is an incredibly narrow perspective.
Yeah, calling it a "choice" while true, isn't really fair. We have a society that simultaneously harshly judges those who are overweight, and yet encourages people in pretty much every way possible to get fat. I mean, really, our society pretty much does everything in its power to make everyone fat. First, the vast majority of the food in our stores contains way too many simple sugars, and nowhere near enough complex carbs. Yes, we can sit here and judge people for not buying healthier food, but when do you ever see healthy food advertised? I think it's a problem when I buy "lightly salted peanuts" which have cornstarch in them. The agricultural-industrial complex pretty much holds complete control over what is sold, advertised, and subsidized by the government; our tax dollars go towards making these foods that are terrible for us more affordable and more widely available than healthy foods.
Then, you've got the modern societal scheduling issues. Most of us skip breakfast, have a set time for lunch carved out for us, and then eat a big dinner shortly before we go to bed, which means two giant meals. Kids in school are even more fucked, since many of them are limited by what the school cafeteria is serving, and most teachers won't let them eat in class. People eating at their desk during work is also looked down upon, yet these are the behaviors that are best for us. College dining plans can be even worse; I know a lot of schools go with a mandatory "meal" plan which is ridiculously expensive, doesn't roll over, and basically locks you into eating two all-you-can-eat meals per day. Again, developing the worst possible eating habits for the students.
And then the societal judgment on people who are fat makes it even worse; a lot of overweight people are too self-conscious to go to a gym, because they feel like everyone is judging them; we've turned gyms into places healthy people go, instead of making it into a place where people go to get healthy.
So yes, in one sense, it is a "choice," in much the same way a poor kid who grows up in the ghetto without a family "chooses" to become a gangbanger and a drug dealer. And I'm not saying that people aren't responsible for their weight; all I'm saying is that the deck comes out stacked against them, and then we act all judgmental when they behave in exactly the way society and economics encourage them to.
jeepguy show me JUST WHERE THE FUCK I said anybody was helpless.
HIPPIE:
"IT'S NOT A CHOICE"
*SOBBING*
You god damned moron. I am distinguishing between "HEY LOOK I THINK I'LL EAT A WHOLE FUCKING CAKE BECAUSE I WANT TO" and "HEY LOOK THIS IS HOW I'VE BEEN TRAINED TO EAT AND NOBODY FUCKING TAUGHT ME ANY DIFFERENT BECAUSE MY FAMILY'S FAT AND THEIR FAMILIES WERE FAT AND WE ALL HAVE BAD EATING HABITS SO SAYING I CHOSE TO BECOME A FAT FUCKING SLOB IS PRETTY FUCKING STUPID YOU IGNORANT MORON."
Hippie, nobody is really talking about how people got fat. This thread is mostly concerned with what you do once you're an adult and you realize "hey, I'm fat." Do you lobby for acceptance as a special class, or do you do something about it? I'm sorry, but your points aren't even remotely relative to this discourse.
Besides, the point of this thread isn't "fuck fat people". It's "fuck the fat acceptance movement." I don't accept that poor lifestyle choices that are going to negatively impact a huge segment of the population are a good idea. I don't accept that lifestyle choices which are going to cost everyone else money are just fine. and dandy.
So make them stop costing everyone else money. The choices are not a priori destined to fuck over those of us who don't make them.
You are aware that you are being ridiculous, right?
Fuck you.
The way to make people stop costing the health care system more money is to make them healthier. Being obese is not healthy. It has been proven repeatedly to be a factor in a huge number of health issues.
You can't just wave a magic wand and make these costs go away, unless you are advocating that obese people not receive medical treatment.
This is exactly what I'm advocating. If you make a choice that can lead to medical problems, and then you have those medical problems, I don't think the government should spend a dime to save you. Certainly not if the government spending that dime is used as a reason people should not be permitted to make the same choice you did.
The argument seems, to me, to be analogous to this:
"I give everyone who wears a green shirt $5. I've given you $5 the past three days. Stop wearing green shirts, you're stealing my money!"
The choice to wear a green shirt or be fat is not related to the detriment of losing $5 or paying for other people's avoidable medical bills.
"Being fat" is a result of a lot of choices and some things that aren't choices---it's more a result than it is a singular choice. What should be taxed, incentivized or disincentivized is the behaviors that lead people to become overweight.
Like say, a tax credit for having a gym membership, or putting a sort of "sin tax" on heavily sugary snacks, end corn subsidies so hcfs isn't so cheap, etc.
Correct, but no longer relevant to the topic at hand. I would add that these are the appropriate responses to the government subsidizing fatness through medical bills, and that objecting to fat people is not an appropriate response to that or anything else. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with being fat, so long as you don't expect other people to go out of their way to accommodate your fatness. There is, however, something wrong with harassing or criticizing someone because they are fat.
I would lambaste people for irrational behavior, but I pick my scabs. Like, a lot. I end up with little tender or bloody spots around the nail on my fingertips all the time. I break the habit for weeks, but it's always difficult and I tend to slide back to chewing around my fingernails and picking when they get scabbed. Why do I do it? No clue. It mostly just hurts me a bit, and provides no real benefit.
Oh and incidentally guys, hardcore body-building also results in heart problems.
Most activities are harmful if done in excess.
That is correct. None of the extremes are healthy. But we choose to focus only on the unattractive one.
That is also widespread and increasing all over the world.
Unlike hyper-skinniness among celebrities? You just proved his point by ignoring what he's talking about.
With the mimicking of those celebrities poor health-choices also pretty widespread with the motivating force of "if you don't do it you're ugly and unlovable".
Nah obesity in a way is worse than alcoholism, barring extreme circumstances you don't have to drink, you have to eat something.
Interesting point. One might even say that a difficult option alcoholics have, that of going cold turkey, is denied to fat people, who have to eat to live, but have trouble stopping at a reasonable amount.
Indeed. A lot of people also don't realise how difficult it can be to lose the last 5-10 extra kilos, because many gyms continue to push cardio as a weight-loss method when in truth treadmills don't do dick for your weight-loss above what you'd lose just walking a kilometre to the bus stop.
You can be healthy and strong with a bit of a tummy, but there is no excuse for choosing to remain obese. Kudos to all people who decide to get fit when they're extremely obese, because it's a tough starting position. But it can be done.
I don't get this. Why can't someone choose to remain obese? What if they like food?
Well, if you live in a country with socialized health care, like I do (Canada), those folks are costing you money, or will be when they develop any of the various health problems associated with obeisity. However, the same thing applies to people with all sorts of bad habits, smoking, certain drugs, working with asbestos, whatever. The obese aren't any worse here than those other examples, IMO.
This story about airlines in Canada being mandated to provide an extra seat to those morbidly obese might be of interest to folks. It raises an interesting issue, if we force private companies to make accommodations for obese folks, how do they go about deciding who fits that criteria?
Corvus on
:so_raven:
0
ZimmydoomAccept no substitutesRegistered Userregular
I would lambaste people for irrational behavior, but I pick my scabs. Like, a lot. I end up with little tender or bloody spots around the nail on my fingertips all the time. I break the habit for weeks, but it's always difficult and I tend to slide back to chewing around my fingernails and picking when they get scabbed. Why do I do it? No clue. It mostly just hurts me a bit, and provides no real benefit.
Humans aren't usually rational beings.
Maybe we should emotionally abuse you until you learn how to be more rational.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
Also, physical education in this country is a fucking joke. We don't talk about nutrition to any serious degree, the focus is on the competitive aspects of sports rather than on getting exercise and being healthy, and it's turned into such a useless class over the past several years that a lot of schools are cutting it out entirely. If the class was taught by people who actually knew what the fuck they were doing rather than just dumping it on the coaches so that they have something to do during the day, it might actually be useful.
Again it is kind of the slippery slope. I have had many people tell me I am setting my daughter up to be like me. Umm just cause the child is 60lbs and 4'3" she is not fat. Seriously she is active (Judo twice a week, Tournements once a month, biking, running around and playing.) And to look at her she is not a large child. Compare her to her friend Kaitlyn though and yes she looks huge, but then Kaitlyn is a small child. So should I be charged with child abues since a large amount of people feel that by virtue of my daughter living with a fat mommy I am setting her up to fail?
To be fair, people seem to be arguing more about the whole "parents are setting up their kids to have an unhealthy diet" than anything.
Also jeepguy, at what point does a child have the free will and ability to choose to eat for themselves when growing up? Would you expect an elementary school child to know how to cook and to know what's healthy and what's not if their parents are eating McDonald's 3 meals a day?
Also, physical education in this country is a fucking joke. We don't talk about nutrition to any serious degree, the focus is on the competitive aspects of sports rather than on getting exercise and being healthy, and it's turned into such a useless class over the past several years that a lot of schools are cutting it out entirely. If the class was taught by people who actually knew what the fuck they were doing rather than just dumping it on the coaches so that they have something to do during the day, it might actually be useful.
Are schools actually cutting out PE classes from the curriculum now? Didn't anybody get pissed?
Also, physical education in this country is a fucking joke. We don't talk about nutrition to any serious degree, the focus is on the competitive aspects of sports rather than on getting exercise and being healthy, and it's turned into such a useless class over the past several years that a lot of schools are cutting it out entirely. If the class was taught by people who actually knew what the fuck they were doing rather than just dumping it on the coaches so that they have something to do during the day, it might actually be useful.
Which goes back to Public Education not sucking, which goes back to people need to stop being so stupid. So fix stupidity and we'll fix obesity. Sounds like an easy task.
(Seriously though, I remember in my high school.... My PE coach didn't GIVE TWO SHITS about you unless you were a part of the football team. Our PE class went this way: we go in, stretch, he brings out some basketballs and we just shoot hoops. While we were doing that he was focusing on the football team players by having them run laps and bringing them drinks and stuff.)
urahonky on
0
ZimmydoomAccept no substitutesRegistered Userregular
Also, physical education in this country is a fucking joke. We don't talk about nutrition to any serious degree, the focus is on the competitive aspects of sports rather than on getting exercise and being healthy, and it's turned into such a useless class over the past several years that a lot of schools are cutting it out entirely. If the class was taught by people who actually knew what the fuck they were doing rather than just dumping it on the coaches so that they have something to do during the day, it might actually be useful.
Our elementary school gym teacher was an alright guy, and did his best to be supportive even though many kids couldn't be assed to put in even the most basic effort. There was little in the way of "pushing" kids to press their limits, though. High-school phys ed, by contrast, was rather grueling by the end of the first semester.
Part of the problem is that most phys-ed programs are a weekly deal for an hour or two, when they should be daily for about a half-hour and focus more on exercise then "skill" training, or competitive activities (like you said). Sports are not fun when you lack the strength, agility, and endurance to participate on a basic level, and most gym classes basically break down to extra practice for activity kids while everybody else stands around praying that nobody throws them the ball.
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
Had sex with polar bears
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
Yeah, calling it a "choice" while true, isn't really fair. We have a society that simultaneously harshly judges those who are overweight, and yet encourages people in pretty much every way possible to get fat. I mean, really, our society pretty much does everything in its power to make everyone fat. First, the vast majority of the food in our stores contains way too many simple sugars, and nowhere near enough complex carbs. Yes, we can sit here and judge people for not buying healthier food, but when do you ever see healthy food advertised? I think it's a problem when I buy "lightly salted peanuts" which have cornstarch in them, or my wheat bread comes with high-fructose corn syrup. The agricultural-industrial complex pretty much holds complete control over what is sold, advertised, and subsidized by the government; our tax dollars go towards making these foods that are terrible for us more affordable and more widely available than healthy foods.
You already know the solution to this, but it's a lot of effort. Label reading, buying vegetables and cooking them. Avoiding the high-energy fatty/sugary foods that your metabolism doesn't cope with, despite your body craving them.
So we're agreed that it's a choice. One way is easier but has consequences, the other is much harder for some people than others but has substantial health benefits and social ones as well.
Then, you've got the modern societal scheduling issues. Most of us skip breakfast, have a set time for lunch carved out for us, and then eat a big dinner shortly before we go to bed, which means two giant meals. Kids in school are even more fucked, since many of them are limited by what the school cafeteria is serving, and most teachers won't let them eat in class. People eating at their desk during work is also looked down upon, yet these are the behaviors that are best for us. College dining plans can be even worse; I know a lot of schools go with a mandatory "meal" plan which is ridiculously expensive, doesn't roll over, and basically locks you into eating two all-you-can-eat meals per day. Again, developing the worst possible eating habits for the students.
Bad habits suck, and must be consciously broken. Most workplaces won't be offended if you munch a few carrot sticks in between meals, or have a cup of yogurt or something. What they really tend to object to is actually the stinky and distracting fast food which makes a mess.
And then the societal judgment on people who are fat makes it even worse; a lot of overweight people are too self-conscious to go to a gym, because they feel like everyone is judging them; we've turned gyms into places healthy people go, instead of making it into a place where people go to get healthy.
There are probably certain gyms that would make a fat person uncomfortable, but there are many others that go out of their way to try and help unhealthy people get healthy.
And really, gyms aren't a necessity. People need to walk more.
And I already stated that treating people poorly because they have a problem is generally a very bad thing, and certainly a worse character flaw than obesity, even if we are calling obesity a character flaw, which I have not done: I've called it a problem.
I don't make personal judgments about a particular fat person by looking at them, and while I'm sure there are many who do, I know there are many who do not. A lot of it is in the heads of the fat people themselves, who have often been coping with emotional issues their whole lives, and in some cases use food as an emotional support and coping mechanism.
So yes, in one sense, it is a "choice," in much the same way a poor kid who grows up in the ghetto without a family "chooses" to become a gangbanger and a drug dealer. And I'm not saying that people aren't responsible for their weight; all I'm saying is that the deck comes out stacked against them,
Not everyone is dealt an equal hand.
Fuck dude, here I am a gay man who is, by all standards of male beauty, unattractive. I lost the genetic lottery, but that's just fucking life. Weight is at least something you can control. It is a choice.
and then we act all judgmental when they behave in exactly the way society and economics encourage them to.
Some people are always going to be judgmental. The people who are are very unlikely to be judgmental about just that and nothing else; they're probably the same assholes who are busy judging everyone else all the fucking time, they are assholes. Period.
Sports are not fun when you lack the strength, agility, and endurance to participate on a basic level, and most gym classes basically break down to extra practice for activity kids while everybody else stands around praying that nobody throws them the ball.
THIS. THIS. THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.
Ever notice how when you say something enough times it starts to sound wrong?
Gym class should just be running. In circles on a track, and you should get screamed at if you slow down. People who are fast should get driven to their limits, and people who are slow should be made to feel a strong desire to not be slow anymore, but shouldn't be driven to the point of puking too often.
You think I jest?
Nay, the best shape of my life was in Basic Enlisted Submarine School where they just made us run. A lot. There were no illusions of sporting fun or joy or mercy.
Posts
He's disagreeing with you, not failing to understand you. He thinks the kids have free will and don't have to eat the mcdonald's. See the words free will up there? That's the part where he disagrees with you saying it isn't a choice.
Edit: the part I bolded is amusing to me.
That is correct. None of the extremes are healthy. But we choose to focus only on the unattractive one.
Hippie. I am so God damned sick of you accusing everyone who disagrees with you of not reading your posts.
I read your shitty, wrong-headed, lame-ass posts and have completely and utterly rejected your position, and I am flat-out offended at your retarded moral posturing on the presumed helplessness of the obese.
And that's that. Don't even bother replying to me again, you're a fucking loon and that's all there is.
-edit-
and don't use the word "grok" it's stupid. and don't pretend saying people are helpless and can't control how much food they eat is anything but an excuse. how offensive that you expect me to swallow that pathetic logic.
Then he fails at understanding the concept of choice.
We don't let parents keep their kids if they let their kids eat paint chips, or drink lighter fluid, or if they find out their 6-year-old is drinking malt liquor and don't do anything about it. Likewise, we shouldn't let parents keep their kids who load em up with 8 big macs a day, either.
Everybody has, at some point in their lives, ingested more calories per day than they expended. if you didn't, at least during childhood, then you suffered malnutrition and stunted growth.
A person's metabolism changes throughout their lives, usually slowing down. Most people are ill-prepared for these changes, which is why people can gain weight right after puberty, or illness, or pregnancy, without ever increasing their caloric intake.
Everybody could lose weight. Debra Messing could lose weight. Montgomery Burns could lose weight. However, what some people consider to be "fat" has nothing to do with health. Some people called this "fat:"
That's an extreme example, but it illustrates my point. Whether or not a person is physically capable of losing weight is irrelevant towards the social expectations placed upon that person.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
So argue that rather than accusing him of not reading your posts.
Edit: or agree to disagree, that would work too. Is there nothing more to discuss about fat acceptance after you resolve whether fatness is a choice? Assuming it is a choice, isn't it still wrong to disparage people who have made that choice? Assuming it isn't a choice for some people, what's the appropriate societal response?
That is also widespread and increasing all over the world.
This. This. A million times over. Millions of years of adaptation are behind our cravings for fats and sugars, which are nowadays readily available everywhere. Our modern day society, in which most people drive everywhere, spent the day sitting, eat highly processed food, and work for most of the day with little to no time to exercise, is a major, major factor in weight gain.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Yes we need to make sure we are teaching our children right. I appluade my parents for when i was young but alas the training they taught me did not stick, and I let myeslf go to much. I used to play Volleyball, was able to walk for kilometers, (Hills I hated thought) Could and would bike for 10 kms a day to visit a friend, and have known about healthy eating since I was small. As I became and adult I lost that though. I started drinking to much pop, I ate out to much while working, going to school, and taking care of a newborn, (yup all at the same time) And then I finally found out that I why I had lost all my joy for life was major depression. I ate to feel better but it made me feel like hell, so I ate to feel better.... Even though I knew it was the wrong thing to do.
I didn't. At no point, not once in this argument, have I ever said anybody was helpless. You are, quite literally, putting words into my mouth. It's fucking infuriating and that's why I always get so god damned frustrated with you, because you can't help but accuse people of saying some shit that THEY'RE NOT FUCKING SAYING.
So what other conclusions can I reach? Simply that you're a fucking illiterate monkey who's going to choose to yell at somebody for something THEY NEVER FUCKING SAID instead of either arguing or accepting the point I'm trying to fucking make.
"Being fat" is a result of a lot of choices and some things that aren't choices---it's more a result than it is a singular choice. What should be taxed, incentivized or disincentivized is the behaviors that lead people to become overweight.
Like say, a tax credit for having a gym membership, or putting a sort of "sin tax" on heavily sugary snacks, end corn subsidies so hcfs isn't so cheap, etc.
HIPPIE:
"IT'S NOT A CHOICE"
*SOBBING*
Unlike hyper-skinniness among celebrities? You just proved his point by ignoring what he's talking about.
Then, you've got the modern societal scheduling issues. Most of us skip breakfast, have a set time for lunch carved out for us, and then eat a big dinner shortly before we go to bed, which means two giant meals. Kids in school are even more fucked, since many of them are limited by what the school cafeteria is serving, and most teachers won't let them eat in class. People eating at their desk during work is also looked down upon, yet these are the behaviors that are best for us. College dining plans can be even worse; I know a lot of schools go with a mandatory "meal" plan which is ridiculously expensive, doesn't roll over, and basically locks you into eating two all-you-can-eat meals per day. Again, developing the worst possible eating habits for the students.
And then the societal judgment on people who are fat makes it even worse; a lot of overweight people are too self-conscious to go to a gym, because they feel like everyone is judging them; we've turned gyms into places healthy people go, instead of making it into a place where people go to get healthy.
So yes, in one sense, it is a "choice," in much the same way a poor kid who grows up in the ghetto without a family "chooses" to become a gangbanger and a drug dealer. And I'm not saying that people aren't responsible for their weight; all I'm saying is that the deck comes out stacked against them, and then we act all judgmental when they behave in exactly the way society and economics encourage them to.
Either it's a choice or it isn't.
You can argue that with certain upbringings, children are led into obesity and this may inform their adult life, but I don't think "choice"/"not a choice" is the correct language here because it's not clear as to what you are saying. Children basically don't have ANY choices. But adults do.
You god damned moron. I am distinguishing between "HEY LOOK I THINK I'LL EAT A WHOLE FUCKING CAKE BECAUSE I WANT TO" and "HEY LOOK THIS IS HOW I'VE BEEN TRAINED TO EAT AND NOBODY FUCKING TAUGHT ME ANY DIFFERENT BECAUSE MY FAMILY'S FAT AND THEIR FAMILIES WERE FAT AND WE ALL HAVE BAD EATING HABITS SO SAYING I CHOSE TO BECOME A FAT FUCKING SLOB IS PRETTY FUCKING STUPID YOU IGNORANT MORON."
Being "slightly bigger" is a world apart from "morbidly obese at the age of six". Go to youtube and search for "world's fattest child" if you want to see the sort of abuse cases I'm talking about. I'm not going to link it here because frankly it's kind of heartbreaking.
So we should take 15% of the children in this country away from their parents and shoehorn them into a horribly underfunded and fundamentally broken foster care system because their biological parents are providing them too much basic sustenance.
Yes, I don't see how that could possibly trigger the downfall of civilization.
It's a shock photo. It is part of the rising problem of childhood obesity but is an incredibly narrow perspective.
Thank you.
Hippie, nobody is really talking about how people got fat. This thread is mostly concerned with what you do once you're an adult and you realize "hey, I'm fat." Do you lobby for acceptance as a special class, or do you do something about it? I'm sorry, but your points aren't even remotely relative to this discourse.
*WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH*
I'm just gonna argue at your level, it's fun. I'm sick of taking the high road when you do this shit.
Correct, but no longer relevant to the topic at hand. I would add that these are the appropriate responses to the government subsidizing fatness through medical bills, and that objecting to fat people is not an appropriate response to that or anything else. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with being fat, so long as you don't expect other people to go out of their way to accommodate your fatness. There is, however, something wrong with harassing or criticizing someone because they are fat.
Humans aren't usually rational beings.
With the mimicking of those celebrities poor health-choices also pretty widespread with the motivating force of "if you don't do it you're ugly and unlovable".
accept different body shapes and sizes, including overweight ones
while at the same time encouraging healthy eating habits and exercise from a young age?
I mean I see the dilemma here: we love you the way you are, but to be healthy you need to lose weight
Well, if you live in a country with socialized health care, like I do (Canada), those folks are costing you money, or will be when they develop any of the various health problems associated with obeisity. However, the same thing applies to people with all sorts of bad habits, smoking, certain drugs, working with asbestos, whatever. The obese aren't any worse here than those other examples, IMO.
This story about airlines in Canada being mandated to provide an extra seat to those morbidly obese might be of interest to folks. It raises an interesting issue, if we force private companies to make accommodations for obese folks, how do they go about deciding who fits that criteria?
Maybe we should emotionally abuse you until you learn how to be more rational.
It's funny because the quote tree shows who resorted to ad hom first.
To be fair, people seem to be arguing more about the whole "parents are setting up their kids to have an unhealthy diet" than anything.
Also jeepguy, at what point does a child have the free will and ability to choose to eat for themselves when growing up? Would you expect an elementary school child to know how to cook and to know what's healthy and what's not if their parents are eating McDonald's 3 meals a day?
Which goes back to Public Education not sucking, which goes back to people need to stop being so stupid. So fix stupidity and we'll fix obesity. Sounds like an easy task.
(Seriously though, I remember in my high school.... My PE coach didn't GIVE TWO SHITS about you unless you were a part of the football team. Our PE class went this way: we go in, stretch, he brings out some basketballs and we just shoot hoops. While we were doing that he was focusing on the football team players by having them run laps and bringing them drinks and stuff.)
Our elementary school gym teacher was an alright guy, and did his best to be supportive even though many kids couldn't be assed to put in even the most basic effort. There was little in the way of "pushing" kids to press their limits, though. High-school phys ed, by contrast, was rather grueling by the end of the first semester.
Part of the problem is that most phys-ed programs are a weekly deal for an hour or two, when they should be daily for about a half-hour and focus more on exercise then "skill" training, or competitive activities (like you said). Sports are not fun when you lack the strength, agility, and endurance to participate on a basic level, and most gym classes basically break down to extra practice for activity kids while everybody else stands around praying that nobody throws them the ball.
You already know the solution to this, but it's a lot of effort. Label reading, buying vegetables and cooking them. Avoiding the high-energy fatty/sugary foods that your metabolism doesn't cope with, despite your body craving them.
So we're agreed that it's a choice. One way is easier but has consequences, the other is much harder for some people than others but has substantial health benefits and social ones as well.
Bad habits suck, and must be consciously broken. Most workplaces won't be offended if you munch a few carrot sticks in between meals, or have a cup of yogurt or something. What they really tend to object to is actually the stinky and distracting fast food which makes a mess.
There are probably certain gyms that would make a fat person uncomfortable, but there are many others that go out of their way to try and help unhealthy people get healthy.
And really, gyms aren't a necessity. People need to walk more.
And I already stated that treating people poorly because they have a problem is generally a very bad thing, and certainly a worse character flaw than obesity, even if we are calling obesity a character flaw, which I have not done: I've called it a problem.
I don't make personal judgments about a particular fat person by looking at them, and while I'm sure there are many who do, I know there are many who do not. A lot of it is in the heads of the fat people themselves, who have often been coping with emotional issues their whole lives, and in some cases use food as an emotional support and coping mechanism.
That kind of problem warrants counseling.
Not everyone is dealt an equal hand.
Fuck dude, here I am a gay man who is, by all standards of male beauty, unattractive. I lost the genetic lottery, but that's just fucking life. Weight is at least something you can control. It is a choice.
Some people are always going to be judgmental. The people who are are very unlikely to be judgmental about just that and nothing else; they're probably the same assholes who are busy judging everyone else all the fucking time, they are assholes. Period.
THIS. THIS. THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.
Ever notice how when you say something enough times it starts to sound wrong?
You think I jest?
Nay, the best shape of my life was in Basic Enlisted Submarine School where they just made us run. A lot. There were no illusions of sporting fun or joy or mercy.
But it was cool to be in shape.