Hey guys. I'm dm 4.0 for the second time ever. My party full of idiots did some stuff to put them somewhere a couple levels higher than they should be. I know what I want to do to them but I don't know how to do it because I'm unfamiliar with 4th ed. My question is, since and encounter is supposed to be say 700 xp does that mean I can just put them against 1 level 12 (or whatever) monster that is worth 700 xp? I know in 3.5 they would get their asses handed to them but I was wondering if 4th ed. is different. I should probably ask this in CF forum but hey, I don't like to move around.
What level is the party? How are they 'somewhere a couple levels higher?' The MM and the DMG have rules for encounters against a Solo monster, you should be able to find one appropriate for the party. And it doesn't always have to be one big monster. Break it up into several smaller encounters. Alternatively, add some environmental hazards to the fight, like fire pits, swinging blade traps, boiling hot geysers to bump up the XP 'requirement.'
I'm kind of getting ahead of myself. They are only level 1 but 4 of the 5 are fairly experienced players so I want to throw weird stuff at them.
Hey guys. I'm dm 4.0 for the second time ever. My party full of idiots did some stuff to put them somewhere a couple levels higher than they should be. I know what I want to do to them but I don't know how to do it because I'm unfamiliar with 4th ed. My question is, since and encounter is supposed to be say 700 xp does that mean I can just put them against 1 level 12 (or whatever) monster that is worth 700 xp? I know in 3.5 they would get their asses handed to them but I was wondering if 4th ed. is different. I should probably ask this in CF forum but hey, I don't like to move around.
What level is the party? How are they 'somewhere a couple levels higher?' The MM and the DMG have rules for encounters against a Solo monster, you should be able to find one appropriate for the party. And it doesn't always have to be one big monster. Break it up into several smaller encounters. Alternatively, add some environmental hazards to the fight, like fire pits, swinging blade traps, boiling hot geysers to bump up the XP 'requirement.'
I'm kind of getting ahead of myself. They are only level 1 but 4 of the 5 are fairly experienced players so I want to throw weird stuff at them.
Well, something like a Solo monster, with a couple support creatures (appropriately leveled dragon with kobold underlings, Illithid with a bunch of thralls, etc) should be fine for you.
They will still get their asses handed to them in 4e if you threw a level 12 monster at them. They'd have no chance of hitting the dang thing.
A controller that can buff the crap out of a crapload of minions is an option. If you're a subscriber, poke around in the Compendium for a controller that's about two or three levels higher than them and see what he's got to boost minions and hamper PC's in order to make the minions more dangerous... if you're not a subscriber, check your monster manual.
Alternately you can take some more run of the mill stuff and make them Elites, making the encounter a bit more dangerous.
And things that can turn invisible or insubstantial at times are always a pain in the ass... particularly if they've got a couple soldiers to keep the front line busy.
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RankenphilePassersby were amazedby the unusually large amounts of blood.Registered User, Moderatormod
Hey guys. I'm dm 4.0 for the second time ever. My party full of idiots did some stuff to put them somewhere a couple levels higher than they should be. I know what I want to do to them but I don't know how to do it because I'm unfamiliar with 4th ed. My question is, since and encounter is supposed to be say 700 xp does that mean I can just put them against 1 level 12 (or whatever) monster that is worth 700 xp? I know in 3.5 they would get their asses handed to them but I was wondering if 4th ed. is different. I should probably ask this in CF forum but hey, I don't like to move around.
What level is the party? How are they 'somewhere a couple levels higher?' The MM and the DMG have rules for encounters against a Solo monster, you should be able to find one appropriate for the party. And it doesn't always have to be one big monster. Break it up into several smaller encounters. Alternatively, add some environmental hazards to the fight, like fire pits, swinging blade traps, boiling hot geysers to bump up the XP 'requirement.'
I'm kind of getting ahead of myself. They are only level 1 but 4 of the 5 are fairly experienced players so I want to throw weird stuff at them.
If you have a handle on monster/challenge difficulty you can just brew something up on your own. 4e has a pretty good system for on the fly monsters.
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Oh, and monsters that can create knockdowns are fuckers when there's a skirmisher in the picture to do extra damage while a PC is prone.
If they were more like 4th level I'd reccomend Human Guards + Doppleganger Sneaks. At 1st level I can't think of anything off the top of my head (they'd get owned horribly by said guards and sneaks).
Basically I wanted to have them get to a temple after crossing a desert only to find something rater large (to them), like a cyclopes or ogre guarding the place.
Ok, so a tipical ogre is level 8 but only worth 350 xp. So would that be too easy for them? I'm just a little confused since the guides say to purely go off xp but the monster manual throws in this monster level thing.
CymrilSon, we just crossed the street.Registered Userregular
edited March 2009
Is the D&D Insider thing generally worth it to non-DMs?
If you wanted to run something using the resources, (I hear there's a bunch of stuff for playing online that's not crap) does everyone have to have a subscription?
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RankenphilePassersby were amazedby the unusually large amounts of blood.Registered User, Moderatormod
edited March 2009
then find a level appropriate solo or elite and call it an ogre. Change around a power effect or something to make it work. Voila.
The online virtual tabletop still isn't available, and the last word I've heard is that it looks good, but they want to make sure it will work properly right out of the gate.
Ehhh, I'd say the Character Builder is handy for PCs, and you can download a demo of that, but the Encounter Builder and Monster Builder aren't that useful to a player. That said, having access to all the neat new stuff from Dungeon and Dragon, like early 'betas' of new classes might be worth the $5 a month.
And as far as I know, everyone in your gaming group will have to be an Insider subscriber to use the Virtual Tabletop.
If the planet doesn't ice over and the Sun doesn't burn out in the interim between it's release.
Warlock is now credit to team. You seem to roll lower when you have Fate of the Void accumulated though.
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Lost Salientblink twiceif you'd like me to mercy kill youRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Man, I am really enjoying 4E in principal, but (and I am only saying this here, where his feelings will not be bruised) our DM is not running a very interesting campaign with it. It's his first time DMing, so we're all trying to be nice - you know, not going with our instincts to test boundaries and run away with an idea just to be jerks - but five weeks in, we're still plonking slowly through cavern after cavern.
I don't want to sound like Whiny McComplainypants, but there's no flex room for us to develop our characters. Mostly I feel like we're just mobs being directed to punch things by the DM.
Help guys what can I do without seeming bitchy or squashing his confidence?
Lost Salient on
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
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AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
Man, I am really enjoying 4E in principal, but (and I am only saying this here, where his feelings will not be bruised) our DM is not running a very interesting campaign with it. It's his first time DMing, so we're all trying to be nice - you know, not going with our instincts to test boundaries and run away with an idea just to be jerks - but five weeks in, we're still plonking slowly through cavern after cavern.
I don't want to sound like Whiny McComplainypants, but there's no flex room for us to develop our characters. Mostly I feel like we're just mobs being directed to punch things by the DM.
Help guys what can I do without seeming bitchy or squashing his confidence?
Gently suggest your opinion. Just tell him you and the other guys want to do stuff beyond the basics.
Ehhh, I'd say the Character Builder is handy for PCs, and you can download a demo of that, but the Encounter Builder and Monster Builder aren't that useful to a player. That said, having access to all the neat new stuff from Dungeon and Dragon, like early 'betas' of new classes might be worth the $5 a month.
I am a big fan of the character builder.
Not just as a player, but as a DM. I keep the sheets of my players on there and it's a handy way to make sure I'm keeping track of their items and powers and stuff properly. Helps with making encounters tough but fair.
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
Man, I am really enjoying 4E in principal, but (and I am only saying this here, where his feelings will not be bruised) our DM is not running a very interesting campaign with it. It's his first time DMing, so we're all trying to be nice - you know, not going with our instincts to test boundaries and run away with an idea just to be jerks - but five weeks in, we're still plonking slowly through cavern after cavern.
I don't want to sound like Whiny McComplainypants, but there's no flex room for us to develop our characters. Mostly I feel like we're just mobs being directed to punch things by the DM.
Help guys what can I do without seeming bitchy or squashing his confidence?
maybe talk about past campaigns you've done that were cool. make something up if you have to.
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MorgensternICH BIN DER PESTVOGELDU KAMPFAFFE!Registered Userregular
edited March 2009
During the middle of your next session, punch him in the face as he's making a dice roll.
Morgenstern on
“Every time we walk along a beach some ancient urge disturbs us so that we find ourselves shedding shoes and garments or scavenging among seaweed and whitened timbers like the homesick refugees of a long war.” - Loren Eiseley
Man, I am really enjoying 4E in principal, but (and I am only saying this here, where his feelings will not be bruised) our DM is not running a very interesting campaign with it. It's his first time DMing, so we're all trying to be nice - you know, not going with our instincts to test boundaries and run away with an idea just to be jerks - but five weeks in, we're still plonking slowly through cavern after cavern.
I don't want to sound like Whiny McComplainypants, but there's no flex room for us to develop our characters. Mostly I feel like we're just mobs being directed to punch things by the DM.
Help guys what can I do without seeming bitchy or squashing his confidence?
Try and spark some in character dialogue with the other players.
As the DM starts understanding what your players are about and the sorts of things they'd want to do with their adventuring careers, he might be inclined to start making things more interesting for y'all by setting up situations you'd find more interesting.
If you've already tried that... well I'm all out of ideas short of just telling him.
Rather than immediately going along when your DM says 'roll initiate' do something unexpected like try to parley with whatever monster (hopefully it's intelligent) he's throw at you this time.
Basically I wanted to have them get to a temple after crossing a desert only to find something rater large (to them), like a cyclopes or ogre guarding the place.
One-enemy encounters are honestly not all that great. Often disappointing.
The Ogre Savage would actually work. His defenses (except maybe fortitude) are such that they can deal with him. His attack bonus is +11 plus he has reach 2. That's nothing to sneeze at, there. He's going to hit the party. A lot. Hope the defender can take it.
However his 111 hit points is going to make that a long-ish encounter.
But doable.
I'd say throw in a couple of Clay Scouts (page 156) to make it more interesting. A couple of rounds in, a couple of small statues at the entrance come alive and attack the PC's. The object the scouts are guarding could be the entrance itself.
At 600xp, that should be enough. If you're dead-set on 700 xp and don't want to toss that extra hundred into another encounter... uh... four decrepit skeletons? (level 1 minion, page 234). Perhaps the same enchantment that wakens the Clay Scouts would also awaken the bones of the last set of adventurers that tried to enter the temple... and any treasure the PC's would be awarded in the encounter could be found on their desiccated bodies.
If things look like they may be taking a turn for the worse the skeletons could start attacking the ogre to buy your PC's a little time to deal with shit... gives ya some leeway.
My initial plan was a Skeleton tomb guard maybe with a couple decrepit skeleton minions. but I was confused since the tomb guard was "level 10"
levels are there not to necessarily say that PC's of that level should fight them, more to give you a gauge of how tough the thing is.
it's challenging and often a good idea to have enemies above the PC's level in the encounter. One to three levels more ain't bad. Sending those guys up against an 8 will be challenging. You get a little leeway with brutes though... they have crappy defenses but are a huge sack of hit points to deal with.
well I wanted it to be tough, like enough that they would think twice about fighting it since they missed part earlier that would have taken them an easier way through the dungeon.
Lost Salientblink twiceif you'd like me to mercy kill youRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
We play over Skype, so punching him in the face is out. And we've tried to work in unexpected solutions to NPC confrontations like you suggest, Smart Hero, but (and I think it's because he's not confident yet in his DMing) each time there ends up being only the one way to complete the challenge or defeat the whatever.
I think I'll try to work in more character dialogue with the other guys while we trudge from room to room, and hope that it serves as encouragement. At the very least it will make things more interesting for us. If that fails, constructive criticism.
Thanks for the ideas, everybody!
Lost Salient on
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
So... i rolled a Gnome Bard (fuck yes) And our group consists of A Deva Invoker, a Genasi Ranger, a drow cleric (I fucking hate drow) and the most annoying person I've ever met playing a 'black stereotype' halfelf warlock. I've seriously never wanted to smash a nerd in the face because of how they RP'd until now. Also, dragonborn fighter.
Anyways the RP has been a little lacking on the DM side, instead just throwing us 1 encounter at a time through the campaign. So we decided to work on some Party RP.
So far, the Water Stone Genasi was sheltered to say the least, knowing only about the world in the books and stories he had read until one day he managed to escape captivity or something like that, and met my bard.
He has a natural curiosity and a love for stories, so he follows me around and asks me questions. The Deva, uses my stories to jog his memories, and also calls me out on my lies all the time.
The time came when I ran out of stories, so I started to make up a new one. It's just the story of our party from an outside perspective, and the Genasi starts to fall in love and idolize the 'elemental ranger' who is just him, to the point where in battle he asks me 'What does the ranger do after he slays the kobold?' ... 'He slays the goblin!' ... 'Oh, what a good idea! *attack goblin*'
If it comes down to it, offer to give him a break from DMing, and run the game for a few sessions they way you think you and the rest of the group wanna play. If he sees how much more engaged you all are he might run with what you've built up when he gets back behind the screen.
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NogsCrap, crap, mega crap.Crap, crap, mega crap.Registered Userregular
edited March 2009
anyone going to their local store for the worldwide D&D gameday thing?
I also picked up PHB2. I'm pretty satisfied with it overall. The primal classes seem cool, lots of interesting mechanics there I'm still picking apart. I think the Warden is possibly my new favorite defender; it seems like he really slaps the enemies around the map quite a bit, which is great. "Oh, hi, you though you were running away? I don't think so."
Invoker seemed a little bland, gotta check it over again to see if I missed anything. Avenger has promise, the guy is designed to really dish out against one guy a lot, not only by dealing damage himself, but also by increasing the odds that the rest of your team will deal damage to that one guy. Too bad he starts with only cloth for armor, but there's feats for that.
Also, Implement Focus! So happy about this feat. I am playing a Dragonborn laser Cleric, and it seemed like there was a bit of a drought in the feat department for me, but there's a couple pretty good ones in this book for my build. Still wish I could qualify for Astral Fire a bit earlier, but oh well.
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RankenphilePassersby were amazedby the unusually large amounts of blood.Registered User, Moderatormod
edited March 2009
I am entirely ready for tomorrow's game
I've been spending all day researching different casting methods for making dungeon pieces
I'm thinking the hirst arts dungeon tile pieces are probably the way to go - way less work than making my own positives and creating my own silicon casts
Well so, it went pretty well. I just had them go up against a level 10 brute, and they beat it with only one of them actually dying. Two others were knocked unconscious and almost died. All and all it turned out just about right.
Well so, it went pretty well. I just had them go up against a level 10 brute, and they beat it with only one of them actually dying. Two others were knocked unconscious and almost died. All and all it turned out just about right.
Did they have fun?
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Yeah, this is my problem too.
Check this out
I'm kind of getting ahead of myself. They are only level 1 but 4 of the 5 are fairly experienced players so I want to throw weird stuff at them.
A controller that can buff the crap out of a crapload of minions is an option. If you're a subscriber, poke around in the Compendium for a controller that's about two or three levels higher than them and see what he's got to boost minions and hamper PC's in order to make the minions more dangerous... if you're not a subscriber, check your monster manual.
Alternately you can take some more run of the mill stuff and make them Elites, making the encounter a bit more dangerous.
And things that can turn invisible or insubstantial at times are always a pain in the ass... particularly if they've got a couple soldiers to keep the front line busy.
If you have a handle on monster/challenge difficulty you can just brew something up on your own. 4e has a pretty good system for on the fly monsters.
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Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
If they were more like 4th level I'd reccomend Human Guards + Doppleganger Sneaks. At 1st level I can't think of anything off the top of my head (they'd get owned horribly by said guards and sneaks).
If you wanted to run something using the resources, (I hear there's a bunch of stuff for playing online that's not crap) does everyone have to have a subscription?
D3: Cymril#1411 || League of Legends/Steam/Xbox/Origin: Cymril
Ehhh, I'd say the Character Builder is handy for PCs, and you can download a demo of that, but the Encounter Builder and Monster Builder aren't that useful to a player. That said, having access to all the neat new stuff from Dungeon and Dragon, like early 'betas' of new classes might be worth the $5 a month.
And as far as I know, everyone in your gaming group will have to be an Insider subscriber to use the Virtual Tabletop.
If the planet doesn't ice over and the Sun doesn't burn out in the interim between it's release.
edit* thanks rank
finally
Warlock is now credit to team. You seem to roll lower when you have Fate of the Void accumulated though.
I don't want to sound like Whiny McComplainypants, but there's no flex room for us to develop our characters. Mostly I feel like we're just mobs being directed to punch things by the DM.
Help guys what can I do without seeming bitchy or squashing his confidence?
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
Gently suggest your opinion. Just tell him you and the other guys want to do stuff beyond the basics.
I am a big fan of the character builder.
Not just as a player, but as a DM. I keep the sheets of my players on there and it's a handy way to make sure I'm keeping track of their items and powers and stuff properly. Helps with making encounters tough but fair.
maybe talk about past campaigns you've done that were cool. make something up if you have to.
Try and spark some in character dialogue with the other players.
As the DM starts understanding what your players are about and the sorts of things they'd want to do with their adventuring careers, he might be inclined to start making things more interesting for y'all by setting up situations you'd find more interesting.
If you've already tried that... well I'm all out of ideas short of just telling him.
One-enemy encounters are honestly not all that great. Often disappointing.
The Ogre Savage would actually work. His defenses (except maybe fortitude) are such that they can deal with him. His attack bonus is +11 plus he has reach 2. That's nothing to sneeze at, there. He's going to hit the party. A lot. Hope the defender can take it.
However his 111 hit points is going to make that a long-ish encounter.
But doable.
I'd say throw in a couple of Clay Scouts (page 156) to make it more interesting. A couple of rounds in, a couple of small statues at the entrance come alive and attack the PC's. The object the scouts are guarding could be the entrance itself.
At 600xp, that should be enough. If you're dead-set on 700 xp and don't want to toss that extra hundred into another encounter... uh... four decrepit skeletons? (level 1 minion, page 234). Perhaps the same enchantment that wakens the Clay Scouts would also awaken the bones of the last set of adventurers that tried to enter the temple... and any treasure the PC's would be awarded in the encounter could be found on their desiccated bodies.
If things look like they may be taking a turn for the worse the skeletons could start attacking the ogre to buy your PC's a little time to deal with shit... gives ya some leeway.
Nice encounter setup.
levels are there not to necessarily say that PC's of that level should fight them, more to give you a gauge of how tough the thing is.
it's challenging and often a good idea to have enemies above the PC's level in the encounter. One to three levels more ain't bad. Sending those guys up against an 8 will be challenging. You get a little leeway with brutes though... they have crappy defenses but are a huge sack of hit points to deal with.
I think I'll try to work in more character dialogue with the other guys while we trudge from room to room, and hope that it serves as encouragement. At the very least it will make things more interesting for us. If that fails, constructive criticism.
Thanks for the ideas, everybody!
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
Anyways the RP has been a little lacking on the DM side, instead just throwing us 1 encounter at a time through the campaign. So we decided to work on some Party RP.
So far, the Water Stone Genasi was sheltered to say the least, knowing only about the world in the books and stories he had read until one day he managed to escape captivity or something like that, and met my bard.
He has a natural curiosity and a love for stories, so he follows me around and asks me questions. The Deva, uses my stories to jog his memories, and also calls me out on my lies all the time.
The time came when I ran out of stories, so I started to make up a new one. It's just the story of our party from an outside perspective, and the Genasi starts to fall in love and idolize the 'elemental ranger' who is just him, to the point where in battle he asks me 'What does the ranger do after he slays the kobold?' ... 'He slays the goblin!' ... 'Oh, what a good idea! *attack goblin*'
It's gotten very interesting
PARKER, YOU'RE FIRED! <-- My comic book podcast! Satan look here!
I also picked up PHB2. I'm pretty satisfied with it overall. The primal classes seem cool, lots of interesting mechanics there I'm still picking apart. I think the Warden is possibly my new favorite defender; it seems like he really slaps the enemies around the map quite a bit, which is great. "Oh, hi, you though you were running away? I don't think so."
Invoker seemed a little bland, gotta check it over again to see if I missed anything. Avenger has promise, the guy is designed to really dish out against one guy a lot, not only by dealing damage himself, but also by increasing the odds that the rest of your team will deal damage to that one guy. Too bad he starts with only cloth for armor, but there's feats for that.
Also, Implement Focus! So happy about this feat. I am playing a Dragonborn laser Cleric, and it seemed like there was a bit of a drought in the feat department for me, but there's a couple pretty good ones in this book for my build. Still wish I could qualify for Astral Fire a bit earlier, but oh well.
I've been spending all day researching different casting methods for making dungeon pieces
I'm thinking the hirst arts dungeon tile pieces are probably the way to go - way less work than making my own positives and creating my own silicon casts
Did they have fun?
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