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Who hates fighting games?

maximumzeromaximumzero I...wait, what?New Orleans, LARegistered User regular
edited April 2009 in Games and Technology
Outside of your Power Stones and your Smash Brothers, I really, really hate fighting games.

Here's a list of combos to memorize. Don't feel like doing so or can't? Hah, you lose.

Seriously, what the fuck. It's like I have to take a correspondence course to play the damn things.

*sigh*

This is stemming from my picking the Naruto game for the 360 back up after it being on the shelf for a few months. I know it's not a "true" fighting game, but jesus is it annoying. Not only do you often times fight against people who have health bars twice as long as yours, but they're relentless in their attacks, and as I've said, combos and move lists to remember is ridiculous.

Back on the shelf you go for a few more months.

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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I like fighting games, but realize that they do indeed have needlessly obtuse controls that act solely as a barrier to entry for those who haven't played many fighting games.

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  • RockinXRockinX Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I don't really play anything not made by Capcom or Nintendo when it comes to fighting games.

    Guilty Gear is lousy and I don't feel like learning their special attacks. It's fun for a while, but doesn't go to far for my taste.

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  • SirToastySirToasty Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I dislike them because I can't be assed to memorize the button combination to do a specific move if I don't play the game religiously. They are fun when I am playing with someone who also doesn't know all of the moves.

  • shadydentistshadydentist Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Well, fighting games are about the purest form of competitive video games. If you're not the kind of person who enjoys practicing at a game to get better at it, I can see how you wouldn't enjoy it.

    That being said, the appeal of most fighting games isn't memorizing combos. The fun comes from being able to out-think your opponent.

    Also, SSB: Melee is basically my favorite fighting game of all time.

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  • GraviijaGraviija Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I'm pretty ambivalent about the technical fighting games, mostly because I suck at them.

    What amazes me, when watch videos of high level play in Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Guilty Gear, etc. is the fluidity that these people pull complex moves off with. Whenever I try to play a fighter, I can only use the basic attacks. Anything else I really need to think about before I do it. My brain just does not quickly go from "quick combo > high punch > low punch > throw > juggle > long combo". I just...can't do it. I mean, even in Brawl/Melee, I can't just naturally go from a combo to using a throw. I have to think to myself, "Use a throw, use a throw, use a throw,", which means I'm not doing anything else. The flow of the game is just outside my abilities.

    Oddly enough, I'm pretty damn good at combo heavy action games (DMC, Ninja Gaiden).

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  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Outside of your Power Stones and your Smash Brothers, I really, really hate fighting games.

    It's funny that you mention those two examples--since I personally don't think them as fighting games. Rather, I see them as a sort of sub-genre, "Brawling games" (having more to do with those side-scrolling street brawlers that used to be popular on the SNES and Genesis).

    I can't stand brawlers anymore. Of course, that's just my view on the subject, and it's no more or less valid than others. I can't really contribute much more on the subject, so I'll shut up.... :oops:

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    Synthesis wrote:
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  • maximumzeromaximumzero I...wait, what? New Orleans, LARegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Graviija wrote: »
    I'm pretty ambivalent about the technical fighting games, mostly because I suck at them.

    What amazes me, when watch videos of high level play in Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Guilty Gear, etc. is the fluidity that these people pull complex moves off with. Whenever I try to play a fighter, I can only use the basic attacks. Anything else I really need to think about before I do it. My brain just does not quickly go from "quick combo > high punch > low punch > throw > juggle > long combo". I just...can't do it.

    Oddly enough, I'm pretty damn good at combo heavy action games (DMC, Ninja Gaiden).

    Oh man, don't get me started on Ninja Gaiden.

    I bought it off the Xbox Originals service after everyone was like "OMG BEST GAME EVAR"

    Couldn't get past the second stage.

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  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Some people like to actually invest some time into a competitive game and be rewarded for it? I fail to see the part where you're being forced to play games in a genre that is already niche.

    I don't like racing games. I don't play them. Problem solved. This is not worthy of a thread, especially since you haven't even named an actual fighting game that you hate playing -- SSB, Power Stone and Naruto are not fighting games, and they don't even have difficult inputs or combos that keep you from just picking them up and playing them.

    Between this thread and the one on "pro gaming" I'm having to try very, very hard to not start trolling.

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  • UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow YRP...in position It's showtime, girls.Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I'm a believer in the idea that everyone has "their" fighting game; they just may never find it.

    I can try to get into others, and I might get into them enough to have fun with them but still ultimately get my ass kicked (Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Fatal Fury). I can appreciate them though.

    Others just feel so dead wrong to me that I wonder how anyone could make sense of them (Tekken, Dead or Alive, Marvel vs. Capcom 2).

    Of course, some are just absolutely perfect (Virtua Fighter 4 and 5), the video game equivalent of Zooey Deschanel cooking me an omelette while I watch The Empire Strikes Back in high-def with the promise of sex afterwards.

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  • AkatsukiAkatsuki Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Asides from Smash Bros and Soul Calibur to some extent I suck hard at fighting games... I still love them, or at least I want to :P I've been getting better at Tatsunoko vs Capcom though. Such an awesome game.

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  • GoatmonGoatmon Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Outside of your Power Stones and your Smash Brothers, I really, really hate fighting games.

    It's funny that you mention those two examples--since I personally don't think them as fighting games. Rather, I see them as a sort of sub-genre, "Brawling games" (having more to do with those side-scrolling street brawlers that used to be popular on the SNES and Genesis).

    I can't stand brawlers anymore. Of course, that's just my view on the subject, and it's no more or less valid than others. I can't really contribute much more on the subject, so I'll shut up.... :oops:

    You are silly, sir.

    I mean, Smash Bros is certainly not a traditional fighting game. It's taken the fun parts of fighting games, and put the party-fun spin on it that Nintendo is known for.

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  • MiserableMirthMiserableMirth Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I like fighting games because of the strategy involved. I don't know about other fighters, but in Street Fighter, it is barely about doing combos. It helps to know, yes, but the main strategy is focused around timing and spacing. You can be badass in that game with only pulling of simple combos.

    People often dismiss it because they think they have to be able to pull off some extremely technical move to be good, and that's not true in SF.

  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2009
    SF IV dialed it a few notches back from games like MvC2. At the low and medium levels, at least.

  • Shorn Scrotum ManShorn Scrotum Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Smash Brothers is the only fighting game I can play.

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  • UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow YRP...in position It's showtime, girls.Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Goatmon: Really? Typically ring-outs aren't that prevalent in fighting games.

    Neither is not being able to see what the fuck is going on.

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  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I'm a believer in the idea that everyone has "their" fighting game; they just may never find it.

    I'm of the same mind--well, sort of. It's probably just the environment I grew up in, but I always thought people tended to see 2D and 3D fighters the same way they saw religions. Almost everyone who played video games had one, and they were dedicated to it. And generally speaking, they weren't terribly fond of others. I still see KOF (and FF, AOF, etc.) as a sort of sacred church, complete with saints and sages. Though, I'll admit, I don't know if I'll be picking up KOF XII.

    For me, it was an issue of speed. I had (and I'd like to think still have) very dexterous fingers. This gave me an advantage in high-speed 3D fighters like DOA and VF. So, naturally, I liked those.

    On the other hand, I could not stand any of the Tekken games. I really did like the system of assigning each limb to a key, but the execution was just so horrible. I ended up wanting to smack my head against the controller because I wanted to do something, but the game in question was telling me, "Wait 20 frames, then you can do it, okay? I'm still in the middle of something. Tough shit."

    I played a great deal of Soul Calibur II and IV, but I wouldn't consider myself a fan. There were a lot of balance issues in my opinion (especially if you turned on the freakishly powerful special weapons, and to a lesser extent IV's special powers). If it wasn't for all the crap you could unlock and the customer character engine, I probably would have hated IV.

    I've also been spoiled by complex stages that actually make a difference (beyond 'Fall out of the square/circle, Tough Shit, you're KO'), so I enjoy games that include that.

    [/mostly unrelated tangent]

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • LibrarianThorneLibrarianThorne Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Outside of your Power Stones and your Smash Brothers, I really, really hate fighting games.

    Here's a list of combos to memorize. Don't feel like doing so or can't? Hah, you lose.

    Seriously, what the fuck. It's like I have to take a correspondence course to play the damn things.

    *sigh*

    This is stemming from my picking the Naruto game for the 360 back up after it being on the shelf for a few months. I know it's not a "true" fighting game, but jesus is it annoying. Not only do you often times fight against people who have health bars twice as long as yours, but they're relentless in their attacks, and as I've said, combos and move lists to remember is ridiculous.

    Back on the shelf you go for a few more months.

    Every video game has these barriers, it's just that fighters are more upfront about it:

    Counter-Strike: Okay, I need to know where the bomb can be planted as well as all locations that site can be attacked from/defended in. I need to know, or be aware of, all usual routes to bomb location, the penetration of the weapon I'm using as well as remaining rounds in the clip as well as optimal ranges.

    Madden: I need to be aware of each team's given strengths/weaknesses on offense and defense, as well as how weather affects my players and the effects on the ball therein. I also need to be aware of any exploits I may need to use (such as knowing that, say, the Raiders' defensive line can't stop a running play, ever).

    Devil May Cry 4: I need to know all possible moves I have access to based on weapons as well as each enemy's specific weakness (eg, guns don't work on giant roller ball enemy, need to dash attack those). I need to see the startup frames on each enemy attack to know when to dodge in order to keep my combo gauge up as well as aware of the location of all the enemies I'm fighting in order to allow for longer combo chains.

    There are others, I could go on, but fighting games have this same vertical wall of difficulty, but in my opinion it's more honest about it. The game lets you know straight out that these are the things you need to know in order to compete, and the game can teach you why certain things are better options in a given situation.

    However, fighters also demand incredible thinking and response times. You really can't play fighting games on a serious level (any, I'm including Smash Brothers in this, too) if you're not prepared to play three hundred games of mental chess a second, and willing to put in the time necessary to overcome the barrier of move inputs in order to see the real game.

    Fighters are unique among video games because, at high level play, you're not really playing against the game or situations the game puts you in (such as maps, weather effects, enemy placement). You're playing against your opponent, their skill and strategies. There is nothing and no one to blame a loss on, and no one to share victories with. If you win, it's because you're a better player than your opponent, and if you lose it's because you weren't a better player.

    A lot of people have trouble with that aspect of the genre, I think.

  • DarlanDarlan Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Much like Multiplayer FPSes before COD4, I just can't get into fighting games because I *need* that overarching carrot to be dangled in front of me for at least a little while: give me a decent plot, experience points and corresponding unlockables, something, anything to go for and care about beyond just match to match winning.

    I also get really annoyed when a fighting game isn't clear about which moves overpower which, too: I feel like I have to memorize not only my character's combo list, but basically every character's combo list and which moves overpower which before I can start actually understanding what I'm supposed to be doing and start having fun. As such, I've never really enjoyed a fighting game all that much, and the SSB approach just makes it feel all the more pointless since there's less to work for.


    Edit:
    (I know some people play SSB competitively, but...I'm just not feeling it. Everything feels so loose and willy nilly in those games, not to mention the uncomfortable impression I get that I'm playing: NINTENDO PRODUCT PLACEMENT: THE GAME. BY NINTENDO. ARE YOU BUYING OTHER NINTENDO PRODUCTS YET? BECAUSE YOU SHOULD BE.

    Maybe if Brawl had a functioning online mode I could really get into it...)

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  • shadydentistshadydentist Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Darlan wrote: »
    the SSB approach just makes it feel all the more pointless since there's less to work for.

    Oh, there is soooo much more to Smash Bros (Melee, at least) than meets the eye.

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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I like fighting games because of the strategy involved. I don't know about other fighters, but in Street Fighter, it is barely about doing combos. It helps to know, yes, but the main strategy is focused around timing and spacing. You can be badass in that game with only pulling of simple combos.

    People often dismiss it because they think they have to be able to pull off some extremely technical move to be good, and that's not true in SF.

    Eh, yes and no. If you know your combos, and some of them are hard with tricky link timing in SFIV, you will be able to pump out far more damage every time you manage to land a hit, even if it is having better strategy that is allowing you to land that hit in the first place.

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  • RancedRanced Default Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    You guys are terrriiiiiblllee people for hating SF4.

  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I'm a believer in the idea that everyone has "their" fighting game; they just may never find it.

    I can try to get into others, and I might get into them enough to have fun with them but still ultimately get my ass kicked (Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Fatal Fury). I can appreciate them though.

    Others just feel so dead wrong to me that I wonder how anyone could make sense of them (Tekken, Dead or Alive, Marvel vs. Capcom 2).

    Of course, some are just absolutely perfect (Virtua Fighter 4 and 5), the video game equivalent of Zooey Deschanel cooking me an omelette while I watch The Empire Strikes Back in high-def with the promise of sex afterwards.

    This post resonates with me plenty. Everyone has their game / series. I'm better at, say, Soul Calibur than anything else. Tekken is among my worst series to play, and it's largely for the reason stated in the OP - there's a ton of shit to memorize. I imagine that people don't necessarily have to memorize all the moves. If you think about it, even if people are good with the same character they'll utilize a different series of moves - in theory. Taking that kind of approach in a game design though means that balance is key and I wonder if they've achieved it. And I wonder because I usually see the same things when watching Tekken being played.

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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Ranced wrote: »
    You guys are terrriiiiiblllee people for hating SF4.

    Hey, I love SF4, doesn't mean that links aren't a terrible fucking idea that just serve as annoying barrier to high level play.

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  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Ranced wrote: »
    You guys are terrriiiiiblllee people for hating SF4.

    Hah, that we are.

    Okay, truth be told I don't hate it. I simply do not derive any pleasure from playing it. It's sort of like "Soooo...anyone up for more Mercenaries in RE4? Horde Mode? Team Slayer? Help?"

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • AkatsukiAkatsuki Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Darlan wrote: »
    the SSB approach just makes it feel all the more pointless since there's less to work for.

    Oh, there is soooo much more to Smash Bros (Melee, at least) than meets the eye.

    I dunno about Smash Bros 64 since I was a kid, so dunno what kind of uber hidden techs were inside the game (nor do I care), but both Melee and Brawl have a lot of depth and much more than meets the eye and I refute those who say Brawl was utterly dumbed down or that it's a button masher. Poppycock.

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  • Fatal3RR0RFatal3RR0R Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Personally I like fighting games, but the whole process of memorising button combinations is quite daunting to me.

    And I have yet to find the find the right fighting game for me.

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  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Goatmon: Really? Typically ring-outs aren't that prevalent in fighting games.

    Neither is not being able to see what the fuck is going on.

    I think 3D fighters and the Vs series (I'm not even going to go into doujin fighters) would like a word with you on those points.

    SSB may not be a fighting game (I really don't even care), but it's not because of ringouts or excessive action.

    Most people that play fighting games casually just never bother to learn the systems. That's their problem. The system is more important than movelists and combos, and (often) less accessible as well.

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  • UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow YRP...in position It's showtime, girls.Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Darlan: What? In terms of unlockable shit, that carrot you want dangling, SSBM and SSBB are perhaps the kings.

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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Yeah, inaccessibility is a HUGE issue with fighting games.

    Every fighting game should have a Virtua Fighter 4 Evo style tutorial. I think that tutorial is the only reason why I love Virtua Fighter games so much, otherwise I don't think I'd be able to understand what was happening in those games at all.

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  • UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow YRP...in position It's showtime, girls.Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Well, as for ring outs, I don't know, they're just kinda there. I can trick an AI into ringing out, but I and other human players I've played rarely ring out in VF or SC, and it's not something you have to do like in SSB.

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  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    You know...one thing I always find funny about casual fighting game people is the emphasis they put on that long list of combos you just have to learn.

    Really, I have to call BS on that. I will say more than anything, understanding the basics of a fighting game is the most important thing you can do. I mean how can you even get to that level if you don't have a strong foundation to begin with. Even at high level play you don't see the players throwing out those super fancy combos like crazy. Most of the time, they just figure out their character's best moves and abuse the hell out of those.

    Basically, while those big combo strings are pretty looking, I think it is more important to know what attacks you can and can't use. When you pit practical against flashy, practical will always win out.

  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    You don't have to RO in SSB, you have to knock them off the stage.

    And ROs are VERY common in SC, there are characters built around ROs. Somewhat common is VF, and stage ROs are kind of an in-between in DOA.

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  • MiserableMirthMiserableMirth Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I like fighting games because of the strategy involved. I don't know about other fighters, but in Street Fighter, it is barely about doing combos. It helps to know, yes, but the main strategy is focused around timing and spacing. You can be badass in that game with only pulling of simple combos.

    People often dismiss it because they think they have to be able to pull off some extremely technical move to be good, and that's not true in SF.

    Eh, yes and no. If you know your combos, and some of them are hard with tricky link timing in SFIV, you will be able to pump out far more damage every time you manage to land a hit, even if it is having better strategy that is allowing you to land that hit in the first place.
    Do you really need to know these tricky link combos to be good though? I'm not talking about being amazing, but good enough fighting buttons smashers is like fighting fluffy puppies.

    At the top end, all fighters, even Smash Bros, demand a substantial amount of technical prowess.

  • SenshiSenshi Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Jump Superstars (And Ultimate Stars) is fucking fun if people play with fun characters, not cheap stunlock bullshit. It's one of the few games where I can pick my favorite animu characters and beat others into the ground and have a smashing good time at it.

    Also the Bleach fighting games (e.g. the ones for DS and the Heat The Soul series) are ridiculously fun only because it's like "HEY GUYS I'M SO-AND-SO KILLING SO-AND-SO" which is awesomeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

    but then i'm a fanboy

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  • yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I look at it this way. Fighters with a super-standardized move arrangement should be the norm. Smash Brothers, even if you don't enjoy it or think of it as a fighting game, is very very good at this. Ignoring the differences between a tilt and a smash and transforming characters, you've got...12 different moves or so each individual character can accomplish. Every single one of these moves can be accomplished with a button press and possibly a direction, and the controls are exactly the same whether you're playing a balanced type, a long-range fighter, a fragile speedster, a hulking juggernaut, or whathaveyou.

    This, even if you hate Smash Bros.'s gameplay overall, is almost definitely a good thing. It makes skill purely about knowing when to use moves, not how to use them. Which is my biggest problem with the fighting game genre; there is a layer of knowledge you have to acquire that does not even go into how to play the game WELL, but how to play the game AT ALL. I can't think of any other genre that does this. In an FPS, all your guns will fire with the R trigger or whatever the hell the fire key is for the game in question. In a sports game, all the players will pass with the pass button(to my knowledge, I'm not exactly well researched on my sports titles). Without opposition or stress, you can accomplish any individual move in just about every other genre, and the challenge to a multiplayer game comes purely down to knowing when and where to accomplish said move, technique, or strategy.

    I fail to see why fighting games should be any different, or why it adds another layer of fun, in all honesty.

  • UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow YRP...in position It's showtime, girls.Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    No. Bad idea. Just no.

    Stronger moves (or really good setup moves) should be more complex to pull off. Some fighting games can get away with being that simple. I see no reason for a standardized Street Fighter.

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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    No. Bad idea. Just no.

    Stronger moves (or really good setup moves) should be more complex to pull off. Some fighting games can get away with being that simple. I see no reason for a standardized Street Fighter.

    Why?

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  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    No. Bad idea. Just no.

    Stronger moves (or really good setup moves) should be more complex to pull off. Some fighting games can get away with being that simple. I see no reason for a standardized Street Fighter.

    Why?

    Because having powerful moves you could pull off at the drop of a hat would break the game unless they had incredibly telling startup times which would then make them not very useful.

  • yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    No. Bad idea. Just no.

    Stronger moves (or really good setup moves) should be more complex to pull off. Some fighting games can get away with being that simple. I see no reason for a standardized Street Fighter.

    Why? Why is it more fun when I can't pull off the Super Mega Death Beam YYY(more nude than XXX, even takes off the skin!) without having to practice just to be able to do the move that already has a slow windup and leaves me wide open if I miss, thus making it a gamble?

  • yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    No. Bad idea. Just no.

    Stronger moves (or really good setup moves) should be more complex to pull off. Some fighting games can get away with being that simple. I see no reason for a standardized Street Fighter.

    Why?

    Because having powerful moves you could pull off at the drop of a hat would break the game unless they had incredibly telling startup times which would then make them not very useful.

    Issue: What about when you are skilled enough to pull off said move at the drop of a hat, assuming it has no "hold this direction for X seconds" kind of warmup mechanic? All you are doing is shifting the breaking point.

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