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(Dark, Mighty, New) Avengers Assemble! Long Live the Dark Reign

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Posts

  • KidDorkKidDork Registered User
    edited April 2009
    I feel the Sentry was a cool little trick (let's pretend everyone forgot about the Sentry, even the readers!), but once that was over, they had no idea what to do with him. Bendis burned far too many issues of New Avengers trying to make him interesting, but it just never really took with me. If he's supposed to be Marvel's Superman, I thought we had already one with Centurion.

    As for Dark Avengers, I'm enjoying it, but I can't see this thing running very long. What happens when Osborn is knocked off his pedestal? Would the Dark Avengers then become the Avengers version of X-Force? Doing the wetwork Captain America doesn't want to know about?

  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Sharp101 wrote: »
    Sentry was great in his original series.

    That really doesn't matter, though.

    I mean, Superman couldn't fly in his original series. Batman fired guns in his original series. Spider-Man was scrawny in his original series. Iceman was apparently made of snow in his original series.

    I'm just saying, for fictional characters (unless you're suggesting which series should someone read) all that matters is how they're being written now and right now, Sentry sucks.

  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I just blame Bendis.

    I mean, Age of Sentry was pretty good.

  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Does anyone outside of Jenkins like Sentry, really?
    Me! But not with long hair.

  • VirralVirral Registered User
    edited April 2009
    It's pretty funny that their disregard for human life goes ignored when, just a few years ago, the country was ready to lynch any random superhero just because the New Warriors (seemed) to screw up.

    How dare you expect consistency from comic books.

    Well Superheroes did just save the planet from a massive alien invasion, and Osborn has pretty much taken all the credit for that victory. So it makes sense for people to be feeling a little more pro-supers immediately after the invasion was repelled.

    2vlp7o9.jpg
  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I always liked the Sentry myself. I found his numerous psychoses were always the perfect anchor to a type of realism that I thought most superheros lacked. It shows that even god-like beings can be vulnerable without the cheesiness of their Achilles heel being a glowing green rock. The fact that his main mental problem is that he is afraid of what he is capable more than anything else really keeps the character from getting too far out of hand, because it imposes limits to not what he can do but what he thinks he can handle without going totally schizo. It basically makes it okay for him not to lift buildings and divert asteroids every single issue. The fact that superman can do all that stuff quite regularly wears out his character quite frequently.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Virral wrote: »
    It's pretty funny that their disregard for human life goes ignored when, just a few years ago, the country was ready to lynch any random superhero just because the New Warriors (seemed) to screw up.

    How dare you expect consistency from comic books.

    Well Superheroes did just save the planet from a massive alien invasion, and Osborn has pretty much taken all the credit for that victory. So it makes sense for people to be feeling a little more pro-supers immediately after the invasion was repelled.

    Given the timeliness of Dark Reign in relation to Secret Invasion i have no real problem with Osborn's position. After the abject of failure of Stark-tech and the fact that the sweeping changes he instigated were in part masterminded by a Skrull that Tony was trusting implicitly (Hank Skrull-Pym). I can see why the public's trust in Tony Stark would be absolutely destroyed.

    In the wake of devastation on that scale i can see the public latching onto a powerful charismatic figure who from the point of view of the general public, killed the Skrull leader, saved the capital and the entire world from alien subjugation.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Just because people don't trust Stark, it doesn't mean they would suddenly trust Osborn.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • VirralVirral Registered User
    edited April 2009
    But as far as the public is concerned Osborn saved the planet, right? We all know the general population of the MU are a flock of bleating, mindless sheep.

    2vlp7o9.jpg
  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Virral wrote: »
    But as far as the public is concerned Osborn saved the planet, right? We all know the general population of the MU are a flock of bleating, mindless sheep.

    Just like real life!

    No one trusts Stark anymore because he was all "HEY ALL THIS STARKTECH IS FULLPROOF AND NO ONE CAN BEAT IT BECAUSE I HAVE EXTREMIWHOOPS ALIEN INVASION."

  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    And trusting Osborn doesn't mean excusing the acts of his Avengers. They can easily love Osborn but hate Hawkeye. Course, like I said before, I don't get why Bullseye is even on the team when he could be on the Thunderbolts.

  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Just because people don't trust Stark, it doesn't mean they would suddenly trust Osborn.

    Try any think it through , its not happening in a vacuum.

    1: Captain America is assassinated, public loses single most iconic hero figure

    2: Tony Stark steps into the void as both Iron Man and the director of SHIELD, providing a surrogate icon. Captain America is dead, buts it's still alright because Iron Man is there to protect us.

    3: Public confidence in Iron Man is totally destroyed by the Secret Invasion. He's been shown to be utterly fallible, his technology was used against him, he was defeated as a hero, his inner circle was compromised and his decisions turned out to be the wrong ones to make.

    4: Now we have a situation in which the public has gone through a massively traumatic invasion and has had the figure they look to for safety and security in a world populated by forces vastly beyond their control shown to be utterly fallible. Public confidence is again shattered, Iron Man is scapegoated for the problem and the populace again begins to cast around for a defender figure.

    5: Into this situation we insert Norman Osborn. Over the course of the Invasion he commanded the only government team that wasn't infiltrated by the Skrulls, his actions saved Washington from the Skrull invasion and as he repeatedly pointed out in interviews his technology was proof against the Skrulls when Starks wasn't. On top of all that the public knows that Norman Osborn killed the Skrull Queen in the decisive battle of the invasion.

    Are we starting to see a pattern here?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    The California team had no Skrulls.

    The only pattern I see is "The Marvel populace has 5 braincells between them"

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Except for those Yancy Street boys.

  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    The California team had no Skrulls.

    The only pattern I see is "The Marvel populace has 5 braincells between them"

    Yeah because at no point in human history has a populace reeling from a series of catastrophic events EVER ending up with a charismatic bastard in charge. Something like that could never happen.

    Also you're seriously going to try and use The Order as a successful Initiative team? The entire point of that comic book was that the team was basically doomed from the start.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    The California team had no Skrulls.

    The only pattern I see is "The Marvel populace has 5 braincells between them"

    Yeah because at no point in human history has a populace reeling from a series of catastrophic events EVER ending up with a charismatic bastard in charge. Something like that could never happen.

    Also you're seriously going to try and use The Order as a successful Initiative team? The entire point of that comic book was that the team was basically doomed from the start.
    Well, since you're suggesting that Osborn somehow could get clearances it would be absolutely impossible for him to get, I think we're about even with that sort of thing.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Elaborate?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Crazy people or people convicted of murder don't get to be heads of Security or Intelligence Departments.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Unless they're well connected businessmen with the clout and connections to bribe or blackmail those in positions of power in combination with a massive wave of public support due to being the perceived saviour of the world. That can help.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I thought that was determined to be a wrongful conviction, and that the only people who believe he was the Goblin are Urich and other people on the fringe who are judged to be the equivalent of 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    If you're trying to convince me that Dark Reign is anything other than an idiot plot, you have your work cut out for you.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    He also shot an Atlantean diplomat in a crowded place with tons of press around, while frothing like a madman.

    But then, the populace of the Marvel U probably hate them damn blueskins.

    Goddamn blueskin was there when Stamford blew up.. Fuckin'-- fuckin' swimmers.

  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Well, considering all the times they've declared war on the surface world, that hatred would be kind of justified.

  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    They sided with Cap and his traitorous buddies during Civil War.

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Have Atlanteans ever done any considerable damage to the surface world though? Between helping the U.S. win WWII, and the combined universe-saving actions of Namor, Namora, and Namorita, you'd think there'd be some goodwill there.

  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Didn't they flood New York once, if not more? I seem to recall a scene like that in Marvels.

    And most of the time, when the world is saved, nobody really knows what happened.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Munch wrote: »
    Have Atlanteans ever done any considerable damage to the surface world though? Between helping the U.S. win WWII, and the combined universe-saving actions of Namor, Namora, and Namorita, you'd think there'd be some goodwill there.
    See my earlier comment re:Marvel Populace and braincells.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    If you're trying to convince me that Dark Reign is anything other than an idiot plot, you have your work cut out for you.

    Well yeah, i keep explaining how it could happen and you keep going "LALALALALALALALA! ITS STOOPID! LALALALALALA!" does make it rather difficult.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Didn't they flood New York once, if not more? I seem to recall a scene like that in Marvels.

    And most of the time, when the world is saved, nobody really knows what happened.

    I thought Marvels emphasized how harmless the Atlanteans were by having Gwen Stacy and Phil Sheldon watching the Atlantean vessels as they ambled around, and remarking on how beautiful they were.

  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Namor technically held a city under 'siege' in The Order, IIRC, by suspending a wall of water outside it.

  • ManonvonSuperockManonvonSuperock Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Munch wrote: »
    Didn't they flood New York once, if not more? I seem to recall a scene like that in Marvels.

    And most of the time, when the world is saved, nobody really knows what happened.

    I thought Marvels emphasized how harmless the Atlanteans were by having Gwen Stacy and Phil Sheldon watching the Atlantean vessels as they ambled around, and remarking on how beautiful they were.

    and by having them flood NYC

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Ah. It's been about five years since I read it, and all I remembered was Sheldon remarking that the Atlanteans ultimately didn't do any real damage, keeping with the theme that superheroics had no real negative consequences until Gwen's death.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    If you're trying to convince me that Dark Reign is anything other than an idiot plot, you have your work cut out for you.

    Well yeah, i keep explaining how it could happen and you keep going "LALALALALALALALA! ITS STOOPID! LALALALALALA!" does make it rather difficult.
    Yes, it's not that your explanations are rather obviously poor rationalizations for why it might work after the fact. It's totally me.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Well you've given no support for your position, so yeah i'm leaning towards that explanation.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Well you've given no support for your position, so yeah i'm leaning towards that explanation.

    It's not something you need to provide support for. People are expected to, by default, react with horror when a giant robot falls upon a bunch of civilians due to the reckless actions of a group.

    Or are you going to dispute that?

  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Well you've given no support for your position, so yeah i'm leaning towards that explanation.

    It's not something you need to provide support for. People are expected to, by default, react with horror when a giant robot falls upon a bunch of civilians due to the reckless actions of a group.

    Or are you going to dispute that?

    psyco does make a point. When confronted by unimaginable terror and invasion, a population (real or fantasy) does tend to suspend rationale in favor of "who can protect me? I'll take anyone!"

    Hence Norman Osborn, the guy who saved us on national T.V. He has to be alright.

    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Well you've given no support for your position, so yeah i'm leaning towards that explanation.

    It's not something you need to provide support for. People are expected to, by default, react with horror when a giant robot falls upon a bunch of civilians due to the reckless actions of a group.

    Or are you going to dispute that?

    psyco does make a point. When confronted by unimaginable terror and invasion, a population (real or fantasy) does tend to suspend rationale in favor of "who can protect me? I'll take anyone!"

    Hence Norman Osborn, the guy who saved us on national T.V. He has to be alright.

    But he would never be given the job. Regardless of the fact that he was only "in charge" of the Thunderbolts while Stark had complete control of him, there is absolutely no way he'd have been hired to the job. It would've been someone like Dugan, or someone with some experience at that sort of thing. At the very least, Osborn's resume was totally inadequate, and that's not even acknowledging the whole insane murderer thing.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2009
    If Bush killed a skrull with his bare hands, wouyld you still reelect him for a third term?

    ...it's in the shape of a giant c**k.
  • CoJoeTheLawyerCoJoeTheLawyer Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    If Bush killed a skrull with his bare hands, wouyld you still reelect him for a third term?

    That's a trick question: We all know that Bush is really the Skrull.

    Although I abhor these kind of arguments, I just want to point out that the Marvel populace in general only knows Norman Osborn as a successful businessman, corporate figurehead and the man in change of the Thunderbolts program, which is considered a popular and political success after the Skrull Invasion. I think only a few characters know he was/is the Green Goblin, a total psychopath and otherwise crazier than the proverbial sh*thouse rat.*

    Plus, think about it like this: In the real world, we look past the quirks and particularities of various political figures and celebrities that would otherwise be considered serious concerns in regular people because of whatever talent/charm they have. Why should the Marvel Universe be any different.

    * Big asterisk here: I don’t think it was revealed to the general public Norman was the Green Goblin, but I’m no continuality Nazi.

    Spoiler:
  • TexiKenTexiKen it's a one way street, whichever way I go Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    "Bush Bashes Skrull, Says "W" Stands for the World"

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This discussion has been closed.